Kirsty Blackman
MP for Aberdeen North · Scottish National Party · United Kingdom
“I first raised the issue of self-generated images in Parliament more than four years ago. I have asked almost every single Culture, Media and Sport team about the issue of livestreaming. I am pleased to hear from the Secretary of State that action is being taken, and about the belt-and-braces approach that is coming in.”
“Labour promised £200 million for Grangemouth, none of which has materialised. Labour promised 1,000 jobs for GB Energy, and it turns out that a third of the 130 delivered so far are not actually in Scotland.”
“There is a geographical divide on this issue starker than I have ever seen in this place. Across all parties, every Member representing a Scottish constituency has stressed the issue of jobs, and how important this is to the north-east of Scotland.”
“There is a fundamental question here about what our priority is. Is it to reduce the bill, to reduce the amount of money that we are spending, or to ensure that disabled people can access all the human rights that the rest of us can, access society and be supported? We must recognise the extra costs of disability. What is the priority?”
“May I continue to encourage the Minister to talk to Social Security Scotland and our colleagues in the SNP Government about their experiences of the adult disability payment and whether the changes that have been implemented in Scotland would make a positive difference to those claiming PIP?”
“I will point out where things are today and how we can improve them, rather than looking at what was done in the past, but first, I recognise that although Pride is about celebration, it is also about being angry. We should be angry about the injustices.”
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“It may be that, 10 years down the line, a Minister decides that something relates to the UK leaving the EU and therefore makes what he thinks is an appropriate change. I do not believe that should continue to be possible. That is particularly important in respect of clause 51. I can see some of the arguments the Government may make about other clauses—they may say the changes they permit are just tinkering with technical regulations in relation to VAT, customs or excise duties—but in this clause Ministers give themselves power to make more fundamental changes. That completely fails the people who voted for Brexit to take back control.”
“The current system of Executive privilege is completely unbalanced. It should be shifted towards the Government having to use their parliamentary majority to do things. That would make this a better place. I am shocked that more parliamentarians are not as enraged as I am by that, and that it is not brought up in the House more often. It is not a good way to run a Parliament, and it should be changed. That is important in relation to the Bill because the absence of sunset clauses gives Ministers powers in perpetuity that I do not believe they should have in perpetuity. In some cases, I do not think they should have them at all; they should have to be adequately scrutinised by Parliament and have to get measures through votes. The absence of sunset clauses gives Ministers powers for ever more, and I do not believe that should happen.”
“Member for Stalybridge and Hyde said about the duty to check the powers of the Executive and not to alter the balance, I argue that we actually do need to alter the balance. I find this job incredibly frustrating in a number of ways because of the extreme power of the Executive. In a lot of cases, they do not have to use their parliamentary majority—they do not currently have one—because they have Executive privilege to do a number of things that I do not believe they should have the power to do. In many cases, only Ministers are able to table amendments, programme motions and so on, because the Executive have that power. They also have the power to set the agenda. That means that, for parliamentarians outwith the Government—whether they are on the Government Back Benches or in opposition—things are more difficult.”
“The Government and the EU look likely to push the matter as close to the wire as possible, because it seems that there is an awful lot of distance to travel—particularly since the Government do not actually know what they want. If businesses face the same situation approaching 29 March 2021, after a two-year transition process—if the Minister wants to call it an implementation process, that is absolutely fine—and two years after having gone through a crazy period when they had no idea what was coming round the corner, that will be a major problem for them. It will be a major problem for productivity, as has been mentioned throughout. It is incredibly worrying that, at the end of a two-year transition period, we might still not be clear about exactly how things will look a very short period afterwards. On what the hon.”
“We have raised concerns before about the level of power that such clauses give Ministers. Changing “appropriate” to “necessary” would allay some of those concerns: it would be a stronger test and would require a stronger case from Ministers. I think that is a reasonable request. Before I move on to Executive privilege more generally, may I address something the Minister said? When he raised his concerns about having a sunset clause that specified a date of 29 March 2021, he said that the agreement might be made very close to that date. That is incredibly worrying, given that we do not yet have any agreement or any idea what things will look like on exit day.”
“I am feeling slightly sorry for you, Mrs Main—having to chair a Committee that erupts into riotous laughter, which is most unusual for a customs Bill Committee. I appreciated the Minister’s speech, but I think he is losing his oomph somewhat—[Hon. Members: “Oh!”]—although I am sure he will find it again. We are reaching the end of our discussions. I am sure all members of the Committee are quite glad about that, because I am not sure how much more we can discuss sunset clauses. However, I have a few more points to raise about our amendments. Amendment 120 would replace the second “appropriate” in clause 51(1) with the word “necessary”, because otherwise Ministers will be given an incredible level of power to use their own discretion to decide what is appropriate.”
“I reserve the right to bring the amendment back on Report because it is incredibly important, but I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Clause 51 ordered to stand part of the Bill. Clauses 52 and 53 ordered to stand part of the Bill . Clause 54 Consequential and transitional provision”
“I beg to move amendment 100, in clause 54, page 37, line 5, leave out the second “appropriate” and insert “necessary” This amendment ensures that regulations making consequential and transitional provision may only be made when necessary.”
“I confess I am also losing my oomph—[Hon. Members: “Never!”]—when it comes to talking about the differences between “appropriate” and “necessary”. [ Interruption. ]”
“Thank you, Mrs Main. Both amendments would change the word “appropriate” to “necessary”. The first amendment relates to the powers that Ministers have over changing statutory instruments. The second also relates to statutory instruments, but in terms of transitional, transitory or saving provisions. We have previously rehearsed why I think “necessary” is a better word to use in these circumstances. The Minister thinks “appropriate” is better, so I imagine he will not need to speak for long in responding to my amendments.”
“I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Clause 54 ordered to stand part of the Bill. Clause 55 Commencement”
“I completely agree with everything that the hon. Lady is saying. It is important for businesses to have certainty about how the extra resourcing will work—if there is extra resourcing—so that they will know how to interact and have confidence that the system will work after exit or implementation day.”
“The non-tariff barrier issues include things like stacking lorries, which we heard about in relation to the issue of roll-on/roll-off; how companies and organisations will make customs declarations; the digitalisation or not of customs declarations; and the standardisation of rules of origin, which is the biggest issue relating to the customs union. Those who are exporting to the EU will have to complete rules of origin documentation, having never had to do it before. If we do not have a shared external tariff, that will happen. I am absolutely clear that this is a good new clause. We need frictionless trade with the European Union, but I am clear that the only way to achieve that is by being in the customs union.”
“I will be brief. Jeremy White from the Chartered Institute of Taxation said: “The only frictionless trade known to man is customs union.” –– [ Official Report, Taxation (Cross-border Trade) Public Bill Committee, 23 January 2018; c. 28, Q33.] I wholeheartedly agree. The Scottish National party’s position is and has always been that we should remain in the customs union with the EU. That is the only sensible way of eliminating all barriers to frictionless trade. The thing about having a free trade agreement that removes tariffs is that tariffs are not the only barriers to trade. They are not the only thing to cause friction at borders and problems for companies and individuals.”
“It needs to be taken over the whole geographical spread of the United Kingdom.”
“I have significant concerns about the way this clause is going to work, given that the UK Government’s priority in the Border Force has been immigration rather than customs staff. Therefore, there has been an erosion of the customs staff who have got experience and understanding of the frontline. I am not yet convinced. Although the Government are talking about putting extra people into HMRC, I have not heard enough about equivalent extra staff being put into the Border Force so that it can appropriately police things in relation to customs. I have significant concerns about the border experience, and I note that that is not just on the south coast of England. We have borders when things come in on international flights or ports outside the south coast of England.”
“I beg to move amendment 102, in clause 55, page 38, line 17, after “(2)”, insert “and (2A)”. This amendment paves the way for amendment 103.”
“On new clause 13, I appreciate that the Minister has said he is sympathetic to making changes on the VAT deferral scheme, but I intend to press new clause 13 to a vote so that it is written on the Bill and is not just words from the Minister that the Government agree to a VAT deferral scheme. The new clause would ensure that. I do not intend to push amendments 102 and 103 to the vote, but I may seek to return to amendment 103 on Report.”
“I was pleased that the Minister talked earlier about looking sympathetically at having a system of VAT deferral or something of that sort to improve cashflow issues for businesses. I appreciate his saying that and look forward to more details about how that will work, so that businesses can make adequate plans. That is not the only issue that occurs on leaving the EU VAT area. For the other issues mentioned earlier, for example on triangulation simplification where companies would have to register for VAT in more countries, I am again not convinced that the Government have adequately assessed the impact they will have on businesses. They are therefore not in a position to explain that impact to businesses and assist them in mitigating it.”
“This is the last section on which I will be moving anything. Amendment 102 is a consequential amendment and relates to amendment 103. Amendment 103 requires an impact assessment to take place on the changes of the EU VAT area, as we have rehearsed, and the move from acquisition VAT to import VAT. I am neither convinced nor clear that the Government have adequately undertaken an assessment of the impact. Some 132,000 new businesses will come into paying import VAT for the first time. I do not know that the Government are aware of how much of an impact that will have on those businesses. I am not yet at the stage where I believe the Government have done enough impact assessments.”
“(5) The third step is that the House of Commons passes a resolution arising from the motion made in the form specified in subsection (4) (whether in the form of that motion or as amended). (6) The fourth step is that the regulations that may then be made must, in respect of any matters specified in subsection (4)(a) to (c), give effect to the terms of the resolution referred to in subsection (5).”— (Peter Dowd.) This new clause establishes a system of enhanced parliamentary procedure for regulations setting the customs tariff, with a requirement for the House of Commons to pass an amendable resolution authorising the rate of import duty on particular goods. Brought up, and read the First time. Question put, That the clause be read a Second time.”
“(3) The first step is that a Minister of the Crown must lay before the House of Commons a draft of the regulations that it is proposed be made (4) The second step is that a Minister of the Crown must make a motion for a resolution in the House of Commons setting out, in respect of proposed regulations of which a draft has been laid in accordance with subsection (3)— (a) the rate of import duty applicable to goods falling within a code given in regulations previously made under section 8 or in the draft of the regulations laid in accordance with subsection (3); (b) anything of a kind mentioned in section 8(3)(a) or (b) by reference to which the amount of any import duty applicable to any goods is proposed to be determined; and (c) the meaning of any relevant expression used in the motion.”
“I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Clause 55 ordered to stand part of the Bill. Clause 56 ordered to stand part of the Bill. New Clause 1 Setting the customs tariff: enhanced parliamentary procedure “(1) This section applies to— (a) the first regulations to be made under section 8, and (b) any other regulations to be made under that section the effect of which is an increase in the amount of import duty payable under the customs tariff in a standard case (within the meaning of that section). (2) No regulations to which this section applies may be made by the Treasury in exercise of the duty in section 8(1) except in accordance with the steps set out in this section.”
“Further to that point of order, Mrs Main. In addition to the other thanks, I think this has been a very good debate and we have spoken in a lot of detail about a huge variety of issues, because the Bill covers a number of different things. The amount of knowledge expressed in the room has been a good display of what Parliament can do when it is doing something in the right way. In particular, I say a huge amount of thanks to the Clerks, who have been absolutely invaluable in their support to me. I could not have done this without them—they have been fantastic, so I thank them so much.”
“We have raised concerns previously that, although Brexit is apparently about taking back control, it appears that control is being taken back to the Executive rather than to Parliament as a whole. I will therefore support amendments 137 to 139 if they are pushed to a vote.”
“Thank you for the opportunity to speak and for chairing the meeting, Ms Buck. I would like to speak briefly around the amendments. One of my earliest questions about the Bill was: what is a public notice and how does one justify that it has been made sufficiently public? The Opposition raised that case clearly. On the definition of public notice and the fact that the person making the public notice has to make that judgment call, particularly in relation to clause 13, which concerns the dumping of goods, foreign subsidies and increases in imports, and given that the UK has not had provision to make regulations and rules, it seems sensible to say that a public notice is not the best way. Parliament should have some say.”
“I am pleased that the Government are now concerned with ensuring that such things are put in place incredibly quickly if there is injury to UK industry. In that case, will the Government bring forward amendments to speed up other parts of the process, given that they will now be taking longer than the EU’s similar processes?”
“When the Conservatives are inevitably no longer in government there will be another Government in place, and they will be in opposition saying, “Why are so many decisions being made by the Executive without parliamentary scrutiny?” The UK is at a point where we are choosing how our future looks in relation to Brexit. We are choosing how things will go in this Parliament, and into the future. We are choosing how much say we will have over trade policy, so it is vital how we decide to go about this. The way that the Government are setting this up is absolutely wrong. There should be parliamentary scrutiny of such things, and democratically elected Members should have the opportunity to look at them, to have an input and not just have them done by public notice.”
“The Government have asked for an awful lot of trust. They are asking us to trust them to make the right decision. Given that they do not have a track record of making such decisions over a very long number of years, it is very difficult for us to trust the Government on that. There is also the fact that the Government said that they would table amendments to clause 11 of the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill, and then they did not. I do not think that the Conservative Government have quite recognised what they are doing with all their decisions to hold power in the Executive over any number of things.”
“If the Trade Remedies Authority will be so good at making decisions, why will the Government simply have to make a written statement to the House if they disagree with it, rather than go through some kind of regulation procedure? If the Trade Remedies Authority is set up in such a great way that it will always make the best decisions, why will the Minister be allowed to disagree with it simply by written statement, and not by any sort of parliamentary procedure?”
“This proposal has geographical implications, given that these new goods will be made in the industrial north of the country. Those products may not meet the market share threshold, but they may be incredibly innovative and may improve productivity and make this country a better place to be. Those things will not be taken into account. I have argued previously that if the fishing industry is decimated as a result of Brexit, that is a geographical issue for the affected communities. It does not have a massive implication for the Treasury’s tax take, but it does for those communities. I fear that this market share test is not only unnecessary, but has implications for the choices that communities make.”
“I will say just a few things to follow on from the shadow Front Benchers on this. It is strange that market share is being used in this regard as something that will be taken into account. It is almost as if the TRA cannot be bothered to investigate a company if it does not have a certain market share. For that industry, and for manufacturers in particular, it does not matter what their percentage of market share is; what matters is the injury that is being done to them by dumping. Market share is not relevant, and I do not understand why it is included in the Bill. It may be relevant to the Treasury because it affects the tax take it gets from the industry, but it is not relevant to the protection we should be affording to the industry.”
“It is strange to have it in the Bill, and the Government need to rethink it.”
“Absolutely, and conversely they are the ones that have been getting the most European funding, so the choice they thought they had to make because of the inequality and uneven economic growth in the United Kingdom will make them lose out in more than one way. On the issue of new good and fledgling industries, we cannot predict what the world will look like in 20 years’ time. Who could have predicted the rise in the need for electric vehicle charging points, for example? If something suddenly becomes a thing, the effects cannot be predicted. For example, companies making paper straws in the UK are probably seeing their shares going through the roof. We cannot predict the market share of those companies and how quickly it will grow as a result of changes in the culture of the country. I do not think the market share test is appropriate.”
“The Minister argues that, in the case of a producer with a small market share in the UK, there may be a disproportionate effect on UK consumers. Given that an economic interest test takes into account the impact on consumers, is the market share test necessary?”
“Asking it to do so on more than a five-yearly basis would probably be adding to their workload unnecessarily. The Opposition’s suggestion is incredibly sensible in that regard. The presumption should be five years, and the TRA should make decisions for it to be less if it believes that that would be appropriate.”
“It is very unusual in that document, which lists all the trade remedy measures currently in place, for any of them to have a review date of less than five years. It is completely reasonable that the Opposition are asking for the starting period default to be five years, and for the TRA to decide on a lesser period in compelling circumstances. Given the number of these measures that have been extended and how few of them have fallen at the five year period, I suggest that five years is likely to be a reasonably short period for trade remedies to be in place, and that it is sensible for them to extended as a result. We are talking about the trade remedies body doing substantive investigations and coming up with a huge amount of evidence.”
“I express the Scottish National party’s support for the Opposition amendments. It is sensible that we are asking the Secretary of State to make a decision within a relatively short time period because, as has been stated, we do not want that to be dragged out for any significant length of time. It is reasonable that, after a significant investigation has taken place—and the TRA’s investigations will be significant—the Minister will quickly review the evidence presented and make a decision in the shortest possible time. On amendment 47 and the five-year period, I have the Department for International Trade call for evidence on the current EU trade remedy measures. I can see possibly one that is in place for less than five years. In fact, many have been place for over a decade because they have been renewed.”
“The hon. Lady makes a compelling case and I want to reassure her that Scottish National party Members will support the Labour party in the incredibly sensible move it looks to make, particularly with amendment 55.”
“I would appreciate it if the Minister let us know where it says that UK producers are supposed to produce that evidence. My reading is that the TRA has to find the evidence rather than the producers submitting it.”
“I beg to move amendment 110, in clause 14, page 9, line 45, at end insert “following consultation with relevant stakeholders including consumer representatives and agricultural producers.” This amendment requires consultation before the making of regulations to increase the customs tariff for agricultural goods.”
“If the Government are going to put in any measures related to increasing imports or the price of agricultural goods, particularly through the safeguarding measures, it would be sensible to consult both agricultural producers and consumers in advance of putting those in place.”
“I think Ministers have given undertakings to safeguard the money that comes from the EU until that point, and farmers have no certainty beyond that period of time. The UK Government are looking to make their own trade deals, which may change the agricultural landscape in the UK or result in our taking imports we have not previously because because of the trade deals as part of the EU—we have previously discussed things such as chlorinated chicken. Given all the changes on the horizon, both for agricultural producers and for consumers, who are already finding, for example, that the price of butter is going through the roof because of the increase in sterling, it is difficult for the Government to foresee what may happen in the future.”
“This is exactly the kind of thing we are trying to do: we are trying to ensure that the Secretary of State, when making the recommendation to the Treasury to exercise the regulations, is doing so after consulting both consumer groups and agricultural producers. That is the only sensible thing to do in this case. The Minister has previously been clear that the Government like consulting with people and tend to try to do so wherever they can, but it would be sensible if it were stated in the Bill that they were required to do so in advance of putting in place, via a relatively unusual process, relatively unusual measures that would have an impact on our agricultural producers and consumers. That is important because Brexit is looming on the horizon and our farmers do not know how they will be supported financially after 2020.”
“I rise to move amendment 110, but I will mention now that if new clause 6 is moved at the appropriate stage, we will support it, because an enhanced parliamentary procedure seems sensible. Clause 14 is headed “Increases in imports or changes in price of agricultural goods” and deals specifically with special agricultural safeguards and what can be put in place in relation to them. Our amendment is a very short one, but it is designed to require that the Secretary of State consult with consumer representatives and agricultural producers when making any decisions relating to special agricultural safeguards. The Minister, when he spoke earlier about safeguarding, said that the decisions taken are about balancing the needs of producers with those of downstream consumers.”
“The Minister made a relatively good point in relation to how many technical changes there may be. I will look into the frequency at which changes are likely to occur. If they will be frequent, I will not bring this matter back on Report, but if they will be infrequent, I will consider tabling an amendment. At this stage, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Clause 14 ordered to stand part of the Bill. Clause 15 International disputes etc”
“I beg to move amendment 111, in clause 15, page 10, line 18, at end insert— ‘(3) Within three months of the passing of this Act, the Secretary of State must make regulations defining “international law” for the purposes of this section.’. This amendment requires the Government to define international law for the purposes of Clause 15.”
“Depending on what the Minister says about his intentions, it may be that we do not need to press amendments 111 to 113. I would very much like to press amendment 114 when we come to that stage, but on the other three I will wait to see what the Minister says.”
“The Government have the power on international disputes and the Secretary of State will make regulations in relation to that through the clause, but there does not seem to be any accountability to Parliament about regulations or changes, or ways in which they will deal with international disputes. There seems to be no feedback mechanism to allow Parliament to ensure that the Minister makes the correct decisions or to scrutinise those decisions adequately. In amendment 114, we have asked the Secretary of State to lay before the House of Commons an annual report on the exercise of these powers, making clear the circumstances in which they have used them, which matters were in dispute and which was the relevant international law in deciding the changes. Now may not be the time to say this, but I will just make my intentions clear.”
“We ask them to come back within three months of the passing of the Bill, making clear what the relevant international law authorising the exercise of powers would be and the circumstances in which they consider it appropriate to deal with a dispute by varying the amount of import duty. It may be that the Government intend to return to that later anyway but, if they were to accept any of the amendments, they will make their intentions clear at this point. Amendment 114 has a slightly different purpose: to increase the accountability of Government.”