Jim Wells
South Down · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. In November 1982, I made my maiden speech in the Chamber, and, here we are, 40 years later, and I am making my last speech in the Chamber as a DUP MLA. I was the last person in the Public Gallery when the Assembly collapsed in 1976.”
“<BR /> <BR />Mr Deputy Speaker, I thank you for your indulgence and for your patience with me over many years. Unfortunately, Mr McGlone has just left the Chamber; I was about to thank him. I have enjoyed my 27 and a half years in this Building.”
“I wish that I could, but I have only five minutes. <BR /> <BR />That was so that a very small number of Irish language zealots could go in and register their marriage or civil partnership in Irish or in dual language: £261,000. Did anybody stop to think about whether there was a more cost-effective way of doing that?”
“We are all perfectly happy with a genuine expression of people's culture. That is fine. However, when the language is so cynically used by militant republicanism, unionism has difficulties. Why, for instance, is there no translation into Irish of the words, "United Kingdom", "Londonderry", "Northern Ireland" or "Her Majesty The Queen"?”
“The Member has made the point for me. The official who came to the Committee made it absolutely clear that £261,000 had been spent already. It was farcical to bring that before either the Finance Committee or the Assembly, because the money had been spent and the processes had been set up.”
“If they want the unionist community to accept the Irish language as a genuine cultural expression, they should get rid of the political baggage and extremism, and stop using the Irish language as a political weapon to try to subjugate unionism.”
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“We are privileged to have the Minister with us. Before he inevitably moves on to higher things, I will use this short period of five minutes — hopefully six, if someone intervenes quickly — to ask him three pertinent questions about the motion. <BR /> <BR />Minister, do you accept that peatlands have the most enormous potential to mitigate climate change in Northern Ireland? Their proper use could overcome some of the issues related to reducing stock levels that were raised yesterday. Eighteen per cent of our land in Northern Ireland is peatlands. At the minute, peatlands are a net contributor to carbon emissions, but, if properly utilised, they could be a vast store for carbon. The Department is funding projects on the Garron in Antrim and Cuilcagh in Fermanagh. Can the Minister guarantee that those will continue?”
“Many Members were taken by the evidence given by Mr Allister on the pay and status of the commissioner and on the lack of accountability, given that the commissioner is to be appointed by the Assembly Commission rather than by any particular Department. Is the Member prepared to meet those concerns halfway during Committee Stage or is she wedded to the structure that she has articulated?”
“The Minister has vast experience in this Building. We are only at the initial stage of the process. He knows from experience that the Bill is going to go through Committee, where Mr McAleer and his team will dissect it line by line. It will come back here, probably in a very different form, after that process, and there will be a whole series of amendments made to it. Today is only about accepting the concept and principle of the Climate Change Bill and accepting that we have to have one. Indeed, would the Minister be suggesting his climate change Bill at all, if the private Member's Bill had not arrived on the scene?”
“Most people can hear me, Mr Speaker, but most people do not want to hear me.”
“The Minister has vast experience in this Building, and he knows that we are only at the initial stage with this.”
“The honourable Member for North Antrim needs to come clean. Does he believe that man has any role in the climate change disaster that we face? If he does not believe that and believes that it is just a natural occurrence, he is right: there should be no Bill, because there is no crisis. Is that where he stands?”
“The Member is, perhaps, one of the most experienced parliamentarians in the Building. He knows what will happen, because it is what happened to his two private Member's Bills. The Bill will go to the Committee, which will be diligent in teasing out all his concerns. No doubt, when it comes back from the Committee, there will be significant changes to what we have before us at the moment. I also suspect that he, using his expertise, will table amendments at Consideration Stage if he is not happy. He has concerns, and those will be dealt with at that stage. The Bill will come back, and he will have ample opportunity to scrutinise and amend it accordingly. He certainly has the ability to do that.”
“I am somewhat confused. My understanding was that the Member's party had signed up be enthusiastic supporters of the Climate Change Bill. Yet, unless I read him wrong — this is a little bit of the kettle calling the pot black — I suspect he is taking almost a solo run here and seems to be picking the Bill apart line by line. He is perfectly entitled to do that, if that is his view, but is he in line with his party's view on the issue?”
“I am glad that the Member has given way because the Minister is in the Chamber. Would he accept my point that any tree planting that has a high proportion of Sitka — a foreign exotic species — does nothing for biodiversity or climate change and, therefore, that the vast proportion of planting must be of deciduous trees native to Northern Ireland?”
“I think that everybody in the House would agree with that, even those who do not believe in climate change. Would he agree with me that there are many options to get to net zero and that some will be more painful than others? Does he accept that forestation, the increased use of solar panels, and the re-wetting of peatlands would reduce the difficulties that some sectors will have? For instance, re-wetting 10,000 acres of peatland will have a lot less dramatic impact on agriculture than reducing herd sizes by 50%.”
“Not all of his party voted against that motion. I was very much in favour of declaring a climate change emergency.”
“I assure you, Mr Speaker, that I will not be speaking at 7.00 pm. I was just about to draw my remarks to a conclusion. <BR /> <BR />It is good for the Assembly that we are dealing with the issue. I have already heard some very useful contributions from all sides. We should allow the Bill to continue to Committee Stage, where, no doubt, many Members are waiting to get their teeth into it. We can then come back and give it further consideration. By the time that process is finished, knowing the track record of the Assembly, we will have made a major contribution on the issue.”
“We have to start thinking about our diet and how we produce food. <BR /> <BR />The frightening thing is that the only reason that 1·1 billion Indians and 1·4 billion Chinese can survive is that they have a largely plant-based diet. The frightening spectre that we have, as a planet, is of those two huge populations adopting a Western diet with all the energy demands that that entails. If that happens, we really will have a problem. In that scenario, our population could remain static, but we would have two major concentrations of people moving rapidly towards a diet and a lifestyle that is incredibly demanding on our planet. Therefore —.”
“That is why Ms Bailey is absolutely right to move this Bill and why Mr Poots is absolutely right to move his Bill. Hopefully, between the two, we will arrive at a situation where we play our role. <BR /> <BR />Mr Allister, the honourable Member for North Antrim, made a rather disparaging comment about vegetarianism. As far as I know, there are only three vegetarians in the Chamber, but just remember this: it takes 16 pounds of grain to produce one pound of meat. I will put it another way: if everybody in the world was vegetarian, we could feed the planet three times over and still have a surplus. We have to face the fact that we have only one planet. To sustain ourselves to the level of the United States or Germany, we would need four planets, and we do not have that option.”
“In the Sahel region of Africa, you have countries with populations 10 and 15 times higher than the population in Northern Ireland, but their emissions per head are so much lower that their overall contribution to global climate change is very small. Northern Ireland cannot sit back and say, "We'll just forget about this and pass on it"; we have to do something to help lead the world, as Scotland, Wales and the Irish Republic have all done. We have to play our part. We are the only part of the United Kingdom that does not have a climate change Act. That is our first difficulty. Secondly, how can we lecture other countries? How can we say to small, impoverished nations that have very low levels of GDP, "You must take challenging steps to reduce your climate emissions", if we are not prepared to do it ourselves? We simply cannot do that.”
“Those options will have less — I will not say the word "pain", as I have been hauled up already for saying that — they will be less challenging than if we simply leave it too late and end up in a situation where emissions have got out of control. <BR /> <BR />People may say, "Why should we bother? This is little Northern Ireland, just six counties. We are part of the UK, but, sure, we are only 3% of the population, and our percentage of emissions is just slightly above that". We have two fundamental problems. First, we are part of a big polluter: the UK. The UK has the fifth largest economy in the world, so we have to be seen to play our part in the overall UK target. Secondly, even though Northern Ireland has a population of only 1·8 million, its emissions are much higher than those of many African countries.”
“The Minister has announced a major tree-planting programme, but all attempts to tie him down on what proportion of it will be native Irish/Ulster/British trees have failed. They must all be native trees. You cannot increase diversity by going back to the serried ranks of conifers that have marked hillsides so much for many years. That has to stop. We have to go back to the oak, the birch, the sycamore and all those species that, we know, are good for biodiversity and climate change. That penny has not dropped yet. What I am trying to say in my inadequate way is that there are options available that, if we take them now, can turn round the juggernaut of climate change.”
“<BR /> <BR />I must say how disappointed I am in the Minister and the Department. Last Saturday, I opened 'Farming Life', in which Mr Irwin features at least three or four times every week, and I saw the announcement of a large afforestation project; from memory, I think that it was in County Antrim. It was all well and good — 50 hectares and hundreds of thousands of trees — until I read that half of the trees were to be Sitka spruce. We will get absolutely nowhere in increasing biodiversity and improving the emissions problem in Northern Ireland if we believe that planting exotic, foreign, coniferous trees here will do anything to help the situation. I felt disappointed when I read that.”
“Even in our climate, which is not the sunniest, it is amazing what modern technology can now do in order to achieve a high rate of renewable energy. There is an opportunity there for the farming community. <BR /> <BR />I will raise the issue of afforestation. One of the best ways in which to control carbon emissions and reduce the amount of carbon in the atmosphere is through tree planting. Again, Northern Ireland is one of the least afforested parts of the United Kingdom and, indeed, in Europe. Vast areas of Northern Ireland could be used for tree planting. Courtesy of the Minister, we already have an attractive system of grants and subsidies that enable farmers to set aside land to plant trees, and the payments are spread over 25 years. Those should be used to a much greater level in order to diversify farm incomes.”
“<BR /> <BR />If anyone had told me when I first came into the Chamber, a very long time ago, that over half of our electricity generation would be achieved through renewables, I would have laughed. It was pie in the sky. It was impossible. That is exactly what we have done. Northern Ireland now has a very high rate of renewable electricity generation, and that is just from wind turbines. We have not scratched the surface of generation from solar panels. I am beginning to see farms start to be developed. I know that the honourable Member for North Antrim has a particular problem in his area. I will get my retaliation in first before he raises the issue. The reality, however, is that Northern Ireland has huge potential for solar energy.”
“<BR /> <BR />What we cannot do, however, is leave the farming community behind, marooned, because, as everyone has said, it has a tremendous role to play — a crucial role to play — as we move to net zero. There is no doubt that we cannot do it without the farming community. The only way in which we will do it with the farming community is to have mechanisms in place to ensure that it does not lead to the massive reduction in farm incomes that the Member mentioned and that we can compensate farmers. It is difficult. It will stretch everybody in the Chamber and on the Committee and, indeed, the Minister to achieve it, but it is the only way forward, if we are to deliver an effective Climate Change Bill.”
“Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right: I am stuck in the middle on my own. The Member makes a point that, I know, is held by many in the farming community. We have a system whereby we can use the mechanisms that we already have to ease the pain — that is where I disagree with the honourable Member to my right — that there will be for some people in this process, and there will be pain. As long as the farming community believes that it is being treated fairly and that, if society demands that it reduce its emissions, society is also prepared to use the mechanism that it already has to compensate farmers for that, the farmers will join us and support us in what we are doing.”
“It grieves me even further to agree with the Member on that point. He is absolutely right.”
“It grieves me to say this, but the honourable Member speaks a lot of sense. Yes, he is absolutely right that there are real rewards for our community when we get to our final goal. There is a healthier environment, less dependency on fossil fuels and less waste of precious resources. However, in order to get from our present position to that holy grail, there will be pain and difficult decisions will have to be made. There will have to be reductions in emissions, and there will have to be compensation —.”
“I am aware of the excellent project on the Garron plateau and of the work at Cuilcagh in Fermanagh. That is a good step forward, but we really need to get our act together to protect this valuable habitat. <BR /> <BR />Now, of course, Dolores Kelly has tabled a motion for tomorrow that will deal with that issue to a large extent, but I want to make the point that we have two areas where we can immediately take action to reduce emissions — wastage and peatlands — but we are not doing anything about them, and both are an awful lot less painful than imposing restrictions on other parts of our economy. <BR /> <BR />Finally, Northern Ireland is extremely blessed with a lot of wind and land suitable for solar panels and tree planting. Again, those are much less painful ways to deal with the problem.”
“It has been shown that, if you take degraded peatland and restore it by a process known as re-wetting, you can form a carbon sink, which can do so much to reduce emissions from industrial and farming processes. <BR /> <BR />That begs the question: if 18% of our land is peat, and it is our most valuable tool to sequestrate carbon, why are we still allowing the destruction of peatlands in Northern Ireland? Why are we still giving planning permission for peat removal, and why are we permitting peatlands to be drained, burned and damaged when we have this essential tool that could save the day? There must be a complete moratorium on all further damage to peatlands immediately. There must be a policy, which is only just starting, to re-wet those peatlands.”
“If we stopped wasting energy — I do not think that we will, because many Northern Ireland people are not happy unless they are wasting energy in some form — that would make a major contribution, but we in Northern Ireland and, indeed, the Irish Republic have a unique resource, which, if properly utilised, would be a much less painful way to deal with this climate change issue. Peat covers 18% of our land. Peat covers only 3% of the land area of the entire world, and yet it stores more carbon than all the other vegetation in the world put together. We have a vast tract of peatland, which, if properly utilised, could form a carbon store of immeasurable consequence.”
“Some might argue that the Minister's Bill will be less painful than the Green Party's Bill, but it will have to be done. We must take the mechanism that we already have in place to ensure that we minimise the damage to all sectors as a result of the emissions targets. <BR /> <BR />I see the single farm payment as a way of allowing farmers to adjust to the new landscape by compensating them through a mechanism that has worked very well. I do not believe that it necessarily means that farmers will be out of pocket, but it will be painful. <BR /> <BR />We have a resource in Northern Ireland.”
“I still call it the single farm payment, but Mr Irwin, being the guru and the font of all knowledge on the issue, will point out the exact terminology that is now used. The single farm payment is the mechanism that we inherited from the European Union and that we now control for ourselves. That can be used as a mechanism to compensate farmers and to cushion the blow that will undoubtedly occur as a result of the targets. <BR /> <BR />No matter what Bill we adopt, be it Ms Bailey's or the Minister's — I have no doubt that the Minister's Bill arrived very quickly because Ms Bailey's Bill was coming down the railway line, and, in a rush, the Minister's Bill suddenly appeared as Ms Bailey's Bill was published — there will have to be reductions in emissions from all sectors in Northern Ireland.”
“We are often maligned by the public, but, through our ability to ask questions for written answer and, through Committees, to scrutinise Bills, legislation and policies, we have been successful. Nobody will report that in tomorrow's newspapers. <BR /> <BR />The Bill will go off to the Committee. I have no doubt that the Committee, led by Mr Irwin who is one of its prime spokesmen, will scrutinise every jot and tittle of the Bill and pore all over it. No doubt it will come back to the Assembly in a different shape and form from that in which it entered the Committee. There is an opportunity to deal with the issues and the legitimate concerns of the farming community about the emissions targets. <BR /> <BR />We have in Northern Ireland and throughout the United Kingdom a unique system of farm support.”
“It is a fact that what we are asking for will produce pain for the farming community, but we have the mechanisms to deal with that. <BR /> <BR />First, everyone thus far has said that there has to be protection for vulnerable groups by means of a transition to a net zero target. The fallback is that any targets and policies will have to be agreed by the Assembly. Ms Bailey's Bill sets up a framework, but, time and time again, issues will come back to the Assembly for a final decision. The Bill is only at Second Stage. It will go off to the Committee for further consultation and scrutiny. Assembly Committees have been good at dealing with complex Bills.”
“As the honourable Member for East Londonderry pointed out, however, the consequences of not doing it might be that we do not have an agriculture industry in the future. If we allow our planet to go the way that it is going, we might not be able to produce enough food to feed ourselves in the future. <BR /> <BR />I do not know how many emails, letters and phone calls I have received about this issue. I suspect that the number is second only to the number that came to me on the debate on abortion. Many people in South Down asked me to support the Bill, and many people, most of them farmers, asked me not to do so. I suspect that we have all had the same email from the farming community, which, I believe, was instigated by the Ulster Farmers' Union.”
“<BR /> <BR />We would have to do very little to increase our renewable energy demands because we could solve the problem simply by not wasting the stuff that we already produce. Any time that yours truly — an obscure Back-bencher from South Down, who is of no great political import — raises that with any of the authorities, you would think that I was asking for the sun, the moon and the stars. Nobody is prepared to tackle the absolutely basic point that we could utilise now to protect our planet. <BR /> <BR />Bringing our emissions down to net zero by 2045 will be painful for all of us: industry, private consumers and farmers. We cannot reverse the juggernaut of climate change without huge pain.”
“The roof would collapse upon us if we dared to switch off those machines in the three years in which we did not meet. We recorded the hottest day in Northern Ireland's history, and, of course, the heating was on full in the Building on that hottest day. All attempts to get the heating turned off fell flat with no success whatsoever. <BR /> <BR />The problem is, Mr Deputy Speaker — Mr Speaker, sorry; I have enough trouble with you without calling you Deputy Speaker. The problem is, Mr Speaker, that 24% of the energy that we use in Northern Ireland is wasted; it goes down the plughole. If we could solve that problem, we would not have to burden our farmers with very strict emissions targets.”
“He came back to the bus and started to eat his lunch, still with the engine running. That was half an hour of exhaust fumes pouring out into the atmosphere. I wrote to Translink about that dreadful waste of energy and taxpayers' money and the resultant carbon emissions. You would think that I was asking for the impossible to suggest to it that it might ask its staff to turn off their engines when they are waiting at bus stops. I have seen that many times since. That is an example of what is going on and of the profligate way in which we use energy. <BR /> <BR />We do not have to go too far. In this Building, the recording machines for Hansard in the Committee rooms remained on for three years when the Assembly did not meet. Nobody was prepared to go and switch them off.”
“It was a bright, sunny day in May 2017. I thought to myself, "I will be environmentally aware. I will not drive from Lurgan to Banbridge; I will take the bus". Off I tootled to my local bus stop in the middle of Lurgan. There he was, the bus driver, reading his newspaper. It was 'The Sun', as it turned out; I will not bring out any jokes from 'The Two Ronnies' here. While he was reading the newspaper, his engine was on. It was a bright, hot day, and, of course, the seating that Translink and Craigavon borough council kindly provided at the bus stop was directly in line with the exhaust pipes of the bus. I sat there as he read his newspaper. Fifteen minutes went by and still his exhaust was going quite merrily. He finished reading his newspaper and folded it. He walked across the street to his bank and withdrew some money.”
“It is not directly relevant. They would be delighted to go to Downe Hospital to get that vaccination.”
“Sadly, I understand much of what the Minister says. It is difficult when you know the other side of the story. I sat in his chair. He will recall that, when he became Minister of Health, I walked over to him and said, "Are you right in the head?". That was before we had heard of coronavirus. I do not, for one moment, want to diminish the enormous task that he has had. However, I am disappointed because I thought he would use this debate as a platform to give us an announcement or to tell us privately, as we would not reveal it to anyone, the date of reopening of essential services in the Downe. <BR /> <BR />Could he pick up on one last issue of concern in the Down area? It is the refusal to vaccinate 16-year-olds who turned 16 after 31 March 2021. That was brought to my attention, and I did raise the issue in my speech.”
“I do not want to interrupt what I accept is a very well presented case. I note, with interest, that you are prepared to take interventions and defend your policy, and that is welcome. <BR /> <BR />The Minister has listed a series of services, and it is welcome that we have them in Down, but I hope that he is building to a crescendo, at the end of which he will give us a date that we can take back to our constituents so that we can tell them that, on a certain date, the services that were removed a year ago will be restored. If he is building up to that, I wait with great expectation. If he is not, I will be slightly disappointed.”
“Not too many politicians are prepared to tell the 'Down Recorder' that they are wrong. <BR /> <BR />Mr Swann, it is a double-edged sword. Congratulations on what you have done for the people of South Down and the people of Northern Ireland as far as coronavirus is concerned. However, to complete the set, reassure us that services will be returned in a few weeks and that the concerns of Mr McGrath are unfounded. Perhaps that will take him off the front page of the 'Down Recorder' permanently.”
“However, Seamus McGoran, the chief executive of the South Eastern Health and Social Care Trust, said that I was scaremongering. A few other Members made the same point: that I was scaremongering and there was nothing to worry about. Well, here we are, a year later, and there has been no movement. <BR /> <BR />The Minister has a golden opportunity to, first, secure his place on the front page of the 'Down Recorder' and, secondly, reassure tens of thousands of people in Downpatrick and the surrounding east Down area by giving us a categorical assurance and a date for the return of services to the Downe Hospital, so I can eat my words and say, "Yes, I was scaremongering. It was not going to happen. All my concerns were ill-founded. As a result, I will say I was wrong".”
“My party and most MLAs supported the Minister in taking radical action. Indeed, we were even prepared to vote for legislation that had been initiated two weeks earlier and was being delivered on the ground. Indeed, we were prepared to vote for legislation that had been implemented and superseded, such was our confidence in his team and his advice. I do not regret any of that, and we are gradually getting through a very difficult situation. <BR /> <BR />However, two of the decisions taken as a result of coronavirus involved moving essential services from Daisy Hill Hospital to Craigavon Area Hospital and moving A&E services from Downpatrick to Dundonald. At the time, I was extremely suspicious that coronavirus was being used as a Trojan horse to permanently remove essential services from Downpatrick.”
“Now, that revelation must be extraordinary. There was absolutely no reason why one of the main vaccination centres for County Down could not have been in Downpatrick. People from Dundonald and the leafy suburbs of north Down and Strangford could have got in their cars and driven to Downpatrick, where there are ample facilities. For instance, there is a brand new leisure centre that could have been dedicated to the vaccination programme. Therefore, if it is right to ask 65,000 people from South Down to travel either to Craigavon or Dundonald, is it not right to ask 65,000 people from north Down and Strangford to drive to Downpatrick? The road is exactly the same. I take the point that Mr McGrath is making: everything still seems to be Belfast-centric. <BR /> <BR />When the coronavirus issue arose, urgent action had to be taken.”
“That shows you the strength of feeling. <BR /> <BR />I am not able to criticise the Minister here today — I hope that he does not use this against me in the next election campaign — because I think that he has done an excellent job so far in managing a tremendously difficult situation. I congratulate him and his team for vaccinating over 65,000 people in South Down, including many from Downpatrick, efficiently, quickly and with a minimum of fuss. However, I have written to him about the over-16s — the people who have turned 16 since 31 March — and I would like to see that issue resolved for the people of South Down. <BR /> <BR />An excellent job has been done, but I am going to let him into a secret: it is exactly the same distance from Dundonald to Downpatrick as it is from Downpatrick to Dundonald.”
“Of course, we are talking about the old hospital, which was well past its sell-by date at that time. <BR /> <BR />At that time, as Mr McGrath has quite rightly pointed out, we had a full-blown A&E, a maternity service and a wide range of other services that were available to the people of Down, albeit in a building that was really not up to the task. I also remember numerous public demonstrations in the town, at that time, about the future of the Downe Hospital. I would say that, today, you could not get 20,000 people on the streets anywhere in Northern Ireland on a political issue, nor could you get them there on some major burning international issue and nor could you get them out for Brexit. However, the people of Downpatrick have shown that you can get 20,000 people on the streets about their local hospital.”
“First, I congratulate my colleague and sworn bitter political enemy Mr Colin McGrath for having the diligence to secure this debate. He is not exactly shy and retiring when it comes to the front page of the local newspaper. He is in it every week about this issue, and quite rightly so. Everyone who reads what he has to say would agree with him on this issue. <BR /> <BR />He mentioned an issue that arose before the birth of the Minister and, of course, Ms Bradley, but, unfortunately, I cannot say that. As a rookie MLA in 1982 — I do not think that anyone else in this room was born in 1982 — one of our tasks on the then Health Committee was to visit the Downe Hospital. At that time, people were greatly exercised about the leaching of essential services from that site.”
“I wish you had told me that, Mr Deputy Speaker: I would have prepared something longer. However, I have no doubt that I will try to fill my 10 minutes.”
“Further to that point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker, we have reached a stage in the Chamber where we have a Minister who does not allow one intervention throughout her entire speech. Equally, the seconder to the motion did not allow an intervention. Surely, in any democratic Chamber, we have to have the situation where people have the courage of their convictions and take interventions.”
“Further to that point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker, I understand that the amendment has fallen. Am I therefore right to believe that the substantive motion is before the House and that there should be a vote on it?”
“On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. I assume that we are going to move to the substantive motion.”