Jim Wells
South Down · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. In November 1982, I made my maiden speech in the Chamber, and, here we are, 40 years later, and I am making my last speech in the Chamber as a DUP MLA. I was the last person in the Public Gallery when the Assembly collapsed in 1976.”
“<BR /> <BR />Mr Deputy Speaker, I thank you for your indulgence and for your patience with me over many years. Unfortunately, Mr McGlone has just left the Chamber; I was about to thank him. I have enjoyed my 27 and a half years in this Building.”
“I wish that I could, but I have only five minutes. <BR /> <BR />That was so that a very small number of Irish language zealots could go in and register their marriage or civil partnership in Irish or in dual language: £261,000. Did anybody stop to think about whether there was a more cost-effective way of doing that?”
“We are all perfectly happy with a genuine expression of people's culture. That is fine. However, when the language is so cynically used by militant republicanism, unionism has difficulties. Why, for instance, is there no translation into Irish of the words, "United Kingdom", "Londonderry", "Northern Ireland" or "Her Majesty The Queen"?”
“The Member has made the point for me. The official who came to the Committee made it absolutely clear that £261,000 had been spent already. It was farcical to bring that before either the Finance Committee or the Assembly, because the money had been spent and the processes had been set up.”
“If they want the unionist community to accept the Irish language as a genuine cultural expression, they should get rid of the political baggage and extremism, and stop using the Irish language as a political weapon to try to subjugate unionism.”
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“On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. The Member said that he is going to run out of time. He has only reached half his time and he says that he is about to finish, so he can take points of order.”
“You do not even know what I am going to say.”
“Have we got to the stage in the Assembly that a Minister cannot even take a legitimate intervention?”
“— that seems designed to stir up hatred and suspicion against them and to justify taking away their basic human rights.”
“<BR /> <BR />If you are gay and have never stepped into a church, the sort of news that you read and the picture that you get is that there are millions of Christians in the UK who are looking for opportunities to hurt you. You are told that if someone prays for you, it is actually a form of abuse. You are told that the entire religion of hundreds of thousands of people in Northern Ireland is so toxic that it should be outlawed. I put it to the proposers of the motion that that is incredibly dangerous language. It is a crude caricature of our religious communities —”
“'The Guardian' apparently endorses the idea that conversion therapy is the oxygen that conservative Christians breathe. So when they support banning conversion therapy, they and, presumably, Mr Beattie and Mr Stewart support the banning of conservative religious practices. I notice that neither of them have asked me to give way on that point. <BR /> <BR />Here in Northern Ireland, they are outlawing the beliefs of hundreds of thousands of people, including in Upper Bann and in East Antrim. Normal, everyday Christian practices and beliefs are being compared to bogus therapy and even rape, and that is considered as merely semantics. I am not sure that I have strong enough words to condemn that slur.”
“but the article quoted an activist who said:”
“Are Mr Beattie and Mr Stewart putting themselves into a position where they will put pastors, priests and ministers into the dock? If they are not, they should not be supporting the motion. When people talk about conversion therapy, they talk about physically and sexually abusive practices that are appalling. We all oppose those: there is no difficulty whatsoever with that. However, they also talk about innocent behaviour, such as people praying or asking for prayer. Remember that we are not talking about coercion here: we are talking about adults who perceive that they have a problem and who go to their spiritual adviser to seek prayer and counselling. There can be no compulsion whatsoever. <BR /> <BR />I came across an article in 'The Guardian' recently, which shocked me. The journalist wrote:”
“If at any time he were to quote from his Church's teaching on this issue, which is clearly outlined by Paul, Leviticus, Jewish sacred writings and the Koran, and he indicated to me his Church's teaching, if reported to the police, that pastor, priest or minister would be up in the courts. People say that it has not happened, but it has. What about Pastor McConnell from Whitewell Tabernacle, who was up in court for articulating his Christian views on a certain subject? Therefore, it happens.”
“Those who oppose conversion therapy have been utterly honest in their demands, and I applaud that. We all received a briefing last week from a group of LGBT activist organisations that made it absolutely clear that what they seek and that what, clearly, the motion seeks is a complete ban on all interventions by pastors, priests and ministers on the issue. <BR /> <BR />I am a married man of 38 years, and I have three children. If I were in a situation where I started to struggle with same-sex attraction — I am not, by the way — and I went to my pastor seeking spiritual guidance, the motion and the campaign would mean that the only thing that he could do is approve of my lifestyle choice, commend it and wish me all the best.”
“Did the Member note this morning that a leading SDLP councillor made it very clear on 'The Nolan Show' that he wanted all forms of religious intervention to be banned and that a leading councillor from the Alliance Party on 'Talkback' made exactly the same point that all religious intervention of any kind in this field must be banned?”
“I am Jim Wells, and you certainly know who I am.”
“I want to make it absolutely clear that I would have made exactly the same series of interventions had the contributor been a male Member of the House.”
“On a point of order, Mr Speaker. It is a well-known precedent in the Assembly that a point of order is a short intervention —”
“You have to take a point of order; you have no choice. Sit down. You have no choice.”
“I want to put it on record that there was an inaccuracy there. Patricia Lewsley, an SDLP MLA for Lagan Valley, way back 20 years ago, successfully promoted and got a private Member's Bill through the House.”
“I know Mrs Dobson very well. There was an allegation that, had the constituency been properly and evenly divided, Mrs Dobson would have had a reasonably even pool of votes to canvass. As a result of the configuration of the constituency, she feels, she was not given a fair crack of the whip. That is hardly promoting one of the best women we have had in this Building.”
“I think that the title that he is looking for is the Earl of Northstead and the Chiltern Hundreds, which, of course, Sinn Féin MPs were only too happy to accept when they resigned their seats in Parliament.”
“I have two points for the Minister. First, of course, if all that he is saying is true, we will not need this legislation and it will never be invoked, so he has nothing to fear. Secondly, how does anything on the extensive list from which he has just quoted stop Sinn Féin advisers, or staff who are not advisers, sitting up in Connolly House or any other Sinn Féin office having control over spads in this Building?”
“Given the huge control that spads have over their respective parties, at least in my experience, any proposal for a private Member's Bill would have been gently quashed and never heard of again. That is the problem. <BR /> <BR />By having Mr Allister here, we at least have someone independent who can bring forward legislation without the fear of being dealt with by a spad. He should be congratulated. I noticed him on the front page of the 'Belfast Telegraph' yesterday with a Cheshire-cat-like grin on his face, obviously reacting to the latest opinion poll as far as his party is concerned. He is on a bit of a run. I will give the Bill my 100% support, as I have from day one.”
“I certainly will. I must say, by the way, that you said that you agreed with me; please do not agree with me in case that gets in to the 'Mourne Observer'. The only thing that we have in common, Mr O'Dowd, is height — nothing else. <BR /> <BR />I congratulate Mr Allister for his perseverance and hard work. It looks like the Bill will go through. Northern Ireland will be a better place as a result of his efforts. If we did not have Mr Allister in the Chamber, who else would have the tenacity, ability and independence to move the Bill? Other parties would simply have been told by their spads, "We do not want to be under any more control. We do not want a pay cut. We do not want to be subject to the Civil Service code of conduct, so please do not, under any circumstances, move anything to curtail our powers".”
“At the very start of Second Stage, I noticed that Mr O'Dowd almost said, "How dare a Back-Bencher bring forward any form of private Members' Bill. That is for the Executive and Ministers to deal with". Mr O'Dowd, your Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone Mr Lynch is bringing forward a Bill to prevent fracking. I will remind him of your comments when he stands up to speak during that Bill's Second Stage.”
“We already have a situation where those who have been convicted of terrorist crimes and have served sentences in prison can no longer be special advisers. We now have a situation where there is considerably more control. I suspect that, as a result of some of the amendments that have, unfortunately, been passed, we may have to review the situation again, because we have not yet entirely hit the target of controlling the affairs of those individuals.”
“As I said at Second Stage, it is appalling that someone who is being paid £6,000 a year as a junior Minister has a spad who is being paid £74,000. Something just does not add up there. At least we have cut the salaries going to spads by £150,000, which will maybe pay for six extra nurses or for something more useful in society. There have been many other achievements. <BR /> <BR />It saddened me that we were not able to convince everyone about crucial issues in the Bill, such as the use of non-governmental electronic devices and servers. That was something that was crucial in the Bill. I regret that we were not able to encourage Members to vote for that. That is unfortunate. However, the core of the Bill has achieved an awful lot. Will we have greater control over our spads as a result of the Bill? Yes.”
“Some of the Alliance Party spads have come out with things, particularly about the protection of the unborn child, that I have found appalling. None of our spads has behaved well. We saw what was going on during RHI. What if there had been an inquiry in to the affairs of other Departments in Northern Ireland since 1998? What would we have discovered? What was going on that we do not know about because we did not have the benefit of the Coghlin report? Maybe an awful lot more was going on, and that prompted Mr Allister to introduce a Bill that has gone a considerable way in trying to control the activities of those individuals. Let us be practical about it: we have saved the taxpayer £150,000 because we will no longer have two spads serving junior Ministers.”
“The DUP has accepted that Messrs Johnston, Robinson, Crawford etc behaved appallingly during RHI. Mr Kennedy of the Ulster Unionist Party had a very difficult situation with one of his spads, who behaved in a way that was entirely unacceptable. To be fair to Mr Kennedy, the moment that those revelations were made public, that individual was sacked on the spot. Danny Kennedy, who, unlike Mr Ó Muilleoir, has not disappeared without trace, found that a very difficult, embarrassing and humiliating experience, but he acted with determination immediately.”
“I thought that history was going to be made and that Mr O'Dowd was going to stand up and say, "Sinn Féin got it wrong in having super unofficial spads up at Connolly House, where every government document coming from our Departments had to be verified and approved before it got anywhere". That came out absolutely clearly in the Coghlin report; there is no shadow of a doubt about that. Yet never have you stood up and said, "Perhaps that was not a wise thing to do". That is why, as far as I am concerned, the most important clause in Mr Allister's Bill is the clause — I think that it is clause 1, but I am not quite certain — that says that that is illegal and can never happen again. <BR /> <BR />None of us in the Chamber can hold our heads up with any degree of pride about how our spads behaved.”
“It is coming, Mr Deputy Speaker; it is coming.”
“It would have been helpful had the only two big beasts, both physically and politically, left in the Sinn Féin jungle, Mr Murphy and Mr O'Dowd, who have led everyone from their party on this issue, at least admitted, "We got it wrong in how our spads behaved".”
“We cannot judge a Bill because of our preconceived notions as to the motivation of the sponsor. <BR /> <BR />I think that the motivation here was pure. When the RHI inquiry lifted the carpet and we saw underneath what was going on in this Building and in Government Departments, every right-thinking person in the country was appalled. I have to say that the DUP at least had the good sense to see that there were activities being carried out by its special advisers that no one could stand over or support and that reform was needed. That is unlike Sinn Féin, which would still have us believe that it has nothing to be concerned about as far as the activities of its special advisers, particularly those working unofficially in Connolly House.”
“So many in Sinn Féin's upper echelons just disappear overnight, never to be seen again. What happened to Máirtín Ó Muilleoir? Where has he gone to? He has just disappeared off the face of the earth. Daithí McKay, the then honourable Member for North Antrim, proposed a Bill on a plastic bag tax, which I thought was eminently sensible. I did not say, "Oh, Daithí McKay. It is suspect. Bringing in a plastic bag tax is obviously an attempt to undermine the British constitution or the DUP". I looked at the Bill on the basis of its merits, and I thought that it would be an extremely effective measure. As it happened, he did not have to pursue it because the Executive then decided to take it on board, with great success. Never once did it occur to me, "There must be an ulterior motive coming from North Antrim because of who is sponsoring it".”
“For obvious reasons, it did not suit me to recall that, since I and Mr McCallister were bitter, sworn political enemies in South Down. The Member is absolutely right. Yes, I remember the Caravans Bill. I did not remember his very important Bill on the formation of an opposition in the House. No doubt Mr Allister will come back with a third Bill so that he can achieve the record of the largest number of successes in this field. Regardless of where we stand on the Bill, all of us have to accept that a huge amount of effort has gone into reaching this situation. <BR /> <BR />The reason that I wanted to intervene with Mr Muir is that I get very tired when people say, "The Bill is OK, but we doubt the motivation of the sponsor". I will give you an example: Daithí McKay. Whatever happened to Daithí McKay? I do not know.”
“A lot of effort went in and, unless I come out with a few ill-chosen words between now and the end of my presentation, it looks like the Bill will pass. As I said in a previous debate, the Member will have had two private Member's Bills passed in his tenure as an MLA. When the history of this institution is written, I think that it will be seen that nobody had achieved that before.”
“must be heading rapidly towards that young lady's in tray. That is quite remarkable. In the history of politics in Northern Ireland, nobody else has been able to keep Mr Allister on the straight and narrow, so well done to her.”
“Jim managed to remain cool, calm and collected throughout the entire difficult and fraught process, and we owe a debt to him. The incoming Clerk is Peter McCallion, who also worked hard on this. There was a very interesting comment by the Chair, I think, that the member of staff in the Business Office who was responsible for the Bill, Claire McCanny, had kept the honourable Member Mr Allister on a straight line. That is an incredible achievement. If anyone in the Building has kept Mr Allister on the straight and narrow, an OBE, at least,”
“I have had the privilege of sitting on the Finance Committee, which I have enjoyed enormously over the last year. It is only when you sit on the Committee and see the amount of work that goes into a private Member's Bill, not just from the sponsor but from the staff, fellow Committee members and the other Members with whom the Bill sponsor liaised, that you see what a complex measure this is. I understand that 23 further private Member's Bills are in the system. Given that we may have only about one year of this mandate left, it will be absolutely fascinating to see how many of those come through that scrutiny. <BR /> <BR />I place on record my thanks to Jim McManus, the outgoing Clerk of the Finance Committee, who has just retired or partially retired.”
“Mr O'Toole gave way constantly during all of the debates, so he is certainly not guilty of any of the misdemeanours that Mr Muir has so evidently committed today. The point is that there has been a good air of cooperation on the Bill in the Chamber and at Committee. I am keeping within the terms of the debate on the Bill. Until now, Members have been prepared to stand up, articulate their case and take questions, apart from one Member. It is sad that we have reached the stage where this has happened, but I understand the circumstances: the views expressed are not his, so he cannot answer questions. <BR /> <BR />I think that Mr Allister, the Chair of the Committee and even Mr O'Dowd, surprisingly, took the time to thank those responsible for all of the hard work that went into the Bill.”
“Mr Muir has a lot to learn. He has been in the Chamber for only a year. Throughout this debate, we have known that the words that we hear from Mr Muir are not his own; they are laid down as holy writ by his party leader. Therefore, when he does not understand what his party leader has told him to say, he cannot take interventions because he does not know the answers to the questions that are coming. <BR /> <BR />I will return to the Bill.”
“Your leader will not let you give way. You are a mouthpiece for your leader.”
“On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. Most of us believe that Mr Frew's contribution, whilst we did not agree with it all, was extremely articulate and memorable. Is it in order for the Member for Upper Bann to cast aspersions when he is not exactly Martin Luther King when it comes to making speeches either?”
“Far be it from me to risk being thrown out, but, given the ambush that was performed, this relates directly to the Bill. Mr Frew has explained why he did it, but he has not explained why he did not raise the issue with anyone before he took the fatal step.”
“However, it would have been handy for Members of the House to know the reasoning behind his supporting Mr Murphy against Mr Allister on that paragraph.”
“I stepped outside the advice given to me by my party. Hence, I am in the political wilderness, where there is weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth but no spads. <BR /> <BR />The Member's argument would hold water if, at any stage during the proceedings, he had raised his concerns. Remember: we were aware of this issue at Further Consideration Stage, when Mr Allister spoke at length explaining his views on that paragraph. The Member took no opportunity to tease out his concerns or to raise points with Mr Allister. It is what is known in the political firmament as an ambush, and this one came from nowhere. <BR /> <BR />It is reassuring to know that the DUP Back-Benchers would follow Mr Frew over a waterfall, such is their trust in his judgement.”
“I could see that they did not understand why they were being asked to vote against it, but they believed in the Holy Writ as laid down by the honourable Member for North Antrim. He had deemed that the clause was not worthy of his support, so every one of them, not knowing what they were doing, voted on the basis of their faith in his view on the issue. Will the Member take the opportunity to deliver pearls of wisdom to the honourable Members present and solve the mystery of why he had that road to Damascus experience at the very last moment on that clause? I am not doing this to be critical or saying that he made the wrong decision, although I have my doubts. I am just intrigued as to why, out of nowhere, he made that decision.”
“I agree that the Member has considered every line in every clause, but I was somewhat bemused when he led his troops into the Lobby to support an amendment. He will recall that it was on the clause that dealt with any other function that the Department may exercise. I sat through every second of the scrutiny of the Bill in Committee and every second of the debate in the House. Maybe that indicates what a sad anorak I am, but I listened to every word that the Member said and never detected a single concern about that aspect of Mr Allister's Bill. I then was in the Division Lobby, and, to my surprise, I saw the Member leading a rather bemused group of DUP Back-Bench MLAs.”
“We all hope that Mr Poots will be back as soon as possible. <BR /> <BR />Will the Minister confirm that soil, plants, budgies, dogs etc that were imported on 31 December and were totally safe are equally safe today?”
“Mr Allister raised the issue of the Minister for Infrastructure, for example, meeting her counterpart from the Irish Republic to discuss a road scheme or bridge. The Minister indicates that we will have no record of the discussions. We may have a record of the decision to spend x amount on a new bridge or a new road, but he is saying that a civil servant might not be required to be present, and we will never know what happened in the discussions that led to that decision. What is wrong with keeping a record of that meeting? Why is it excluded?”
“The reality is that most of what happened to bring this place down was carried out outside official departmental systems. It was done on personal email accounts, and the information was never transposed to official accounts. It was fortuitous that one spad decided to blow the whistle, thereby opening the hornets' nest and exposing what was going on. Had he not done that, we would have been none the wiser. <BR /> <BR />Why, having had the issue of criminal sanction removed, does Mr Muir's party leader now feel that we cannot at least give a very clear signal that, when conducting official departmental business, you have to record it on departmental systems. I wonder why there is this opposition. It was not mentioned last time. Then, it was entirely the issue of criminal sanction.”
“It is interesting to listen to the comments of various Members about amendment No 34. During Consideration Stage, their main reason for opposing it was the penal aspect: the fact that you could give someone a criminal record. Your amendment has removed that reason, and there is no criminal record. However, there is, of course, a code of conduct. As I have said, we do not place much store by codes of conduct. However, stepping outside the terms of this Bill would be a clear breach of a code of conduct, so we are sending out a message. <BR /> <BR />The problem is that neither Mr Muir nor Mr O'Toole was here during the RHI crisis. I do not think that they experienced the skulduggery behind the scenes from those using off-record messaging.”
“I am very confident that, when the Division Lobbies are opened — I will be a Teller — Mr Allister will enjoy considerable success, and he is to be congratulated on his efforts.”