Jim Wells
South Down · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. In November 1982, I made my maiden speech in the Chamber, and, here we are, 40 years later, and I am making my last speech in the Chamber as a DUP MLA. I was the last person in the Public Gallery when the Assembly collapsed in 1976.”
“<BR /> <BR />Mr Deputy Speaker, I thank you for your indulgence and for your patience with me over many years. Unfortunately, Mr McGlone has just left the Chamber; I was about to thank him. I have enjoyed my 27 and a half years in this Building.”
“I wish that I could, but I have only five minutes. <BR /> <BR />That was so that a very small number of Irish language zealots could go in and register their marriage or civil partnership in Irish or in dual language: £261,000. Did anybody stop to think about whether there was a more cost-effective way of doing that?”
“We are all perfectly happy with a genuine expression of people's culture. That is fine. However, when the language is so cynically used by militant republicanism, unionism has difficulties. Why, for instance, is there no translation into Irish of the words, "United Kingdom", "Londonderry", "Northern Ireland" or "Her Majesty The Queen"?”
“The Member has made the point for me. The official who came to the Committee made it absolutely clear that £261,000 had been spent already. It was farcical to bring that before either the Finance Committee or the Assembly, because the money had been spent and the processes had been set up.”
“If they want the unionist community to accept the Irish language as a genuine cultural expression, they should get rid of the political baggage and extremism, and stop using the Irish language as a political weapon to try to subjugate unionism.”
The complete record
Every one of 1,869 lines we hold for Jim Wells, in date order, each linked to its source. Free to read, in full, without an account. Page 5 of 38.
“Members have articulated very well, often the views of their Minister, no doubt, or the views of their party leader, but they have articulated those extremely well. I have listened to every minute of scrutiny in the Finance Committee and been here for every minute of the debate, and I think that the Assembly will be a much better place. Unfortunately, some of those who transgressed are still stalking the corridors of this Building. Should they ever think of transgressing again, they will think long and hard before doing so. The spectre of Jim Allister will haunt them for many years to come — long after he has left the Building. Yes, that is an awful thought; I realise that. That, to me, will make all of this worthwhile.”
“He, of all people, should know that; he was Minister of Education for many years. He was certainly an awful lot better than his predecessor, but I guarantee you that that is not a compliment. He would have known, with his vast experience, how to do that. As Minister of Health, I certainly would have known how to do it. Again, Mr Allister bent over backwards to make a reasonable amendment, and amendment No 34 is, in my opinion, more than reasonable. <BR /> <BR />This entire exercise has been good for the Assembly. It was good for the Finance Committee because there was a keenly fought interchange on the Bill between various Members of the Assembly. For the most part, the Bill has been improved as a result of that scrutiny.”
“Exactly. <BR /> <BR />Mr O'Toole can go home to his palatial mansion at the top of the Malone Road and ask one of his domestic servants to download the material and transfer it to the departmental system. A time frame of 48 hours is perfectly reasonable. Why is it a dreadful imposition to ask people to do that? <BR /> <BR />He asked — it is a valid question — what is important and what is not. Download everything and then you have nothing to worry about; simply transpose everything to the departmental official system. If Mr O'Dowd's suggestion were to arise, in which, while walking through Lurgan, he meets a constituent who complains about street lighting and then, after that conversation, somebody gets killed, the precautionary principle is to send the details of the conversation to the departmental system.”
“You were not born in 1982; I am certain of that.”
“I was here before you were born, Mr Principal Deputy Speaker.”
“Mr O'Toole, you are half my age. You have many mobile phones, iPads etc. If you were a Minister — no doubt you will be some day — and got caught in Sainsbury's or, you could —.”
“I have the oldest mobile phone in Northern Ireland and probably one of the oldest mobile phones in Europe; it is only 21 years old. We will soon reach the stage at which there will be MLAs in the Building who are younger than my mobile phone. Even I, when I was Minister, would have been caught by a constituent saying, "What are you going to do about that surgery?" or, "What are you going to do about that hospital waiting list?". I would have put the details on the little Dictaphone in my decrepit ancient phone. The amendment is quite reasonable; it states:”
“We will be having visions this evening that many of the members who signed up to that so-called Executive decision will vote in favour of Mr Allister's Bill. In fact, some of them will vote to strengthen it. I just do not get that. <BR /> <BR />The one area on which there has been some debate today is the use of official systems. Again, with Mr O'Toole, you do not get his words; you get those of Mr Eastwood. Mr Eastwood has told Mr O'Toole what to say. Your good work will be rewarded in heaven. You are on the fast track to greatness. I am on the fast track to obscurity; you are on the fast track to promotion. <BR /> <BR />He fails to read the amendment by Mr Allister. I accept what Mr O'Dowd said: when he goes to the supermarket, he gets lobbied about street lighting, and he takes down material on his personal iPhone.”
“There have been some tweaks and minor amendments since then. Mr Muir, of course, is speaking the words of Mrs Long; if we want to hear what Mrs Long is thinking, we get it from Mr Muir. By the way, Mr Muir, you will be rewarded in heaven for what you have done today. I know that you are far too intelligent to believe what you said today, but you are following the advice of your leader. I understand that. <BR /> <BR />The point that I am making is that, even with that, it appears that four of the five parties around the table did not actually believe that they had signed up to that. Even today, the two remaining big hitters of Sinn Féin — the two big beasts in the jungle — believe that some mythical decision was taken to oppose the Bill. Where is the evidence of it?”
“That was very interesting because four of those parties allowed their members at Second Stage to eulogise Mr Allister's Bill and say that it was the best thing since sliced bread. The Chair of the Committee is the leader of the Ulster Unionist Party, but there was absolutely no indication during the Committee's scrutiny of the Bill that he was tied to any decision that had been made at the Executive.”
“The Minister and his permanent secretary, along with senior officials, came before the Committee on many occasions and talked to us about the agreement that had been made by the Executive. That basically indicated to us, as mere Committee members, that the Executive as a corporate body had decided that the legislation was not required and should be opposed.”
“I assure you, Mr Principal Deputy Speaker, that, as everybody else has been relatively brief this evening, it is incumbent on me to be the same. However, I still wanted to get one or two final digs in before the end of the debate, and time was running out. <BR /> <BR />If all we achieve is that we have reduced the number of spads, reduced their pay to a sensible level, stopped them operating out of Connolly House and made them think twice before they leak information to outside bodies, the Bill will have been a success.”
“<BR /> <BR />I suppose that Mr O'Dowd and Mr Murphy are concerned that the one thing that the Bill will achieve when it is passed is that it will stop Connolly House becoming the fulcrum of power in this country, where decisions sat waiting to be made — maybe for many months — because shadowy figures in the darkened dungeon or basement of Connolly House decided —.”
“Therefore, we hope and pray that Mr Murphy is right. However, just in case he is not, it is good to have effective legislation to set the framework and to let the spads know that their cards have been marked and that, if they step out of line this time, we are taking it extremely seriously. Remember that, as a result of their activity, the Assembly was frozen in time for three years. Important decisions were not taken, and there was no control over the Executive of this country for an entire three years. That was a direct result of the misbehaviour of the spads.”
“The one thing that neither Mr O'Dowd nor Mr Murphy, who are the two last big hitters left in Sinn Féin in the Building — big in both stature and political experience — has realised is that codes of conduct and legislation are not mutually exclusive. You can have both, and that is what Mr Allister's Bill, along with the amendments, is trying to achieve. <BR /> <BR />We all hope and pray that the legislation will never be needed. We hope that the great list of codes of conduct and gentlemen's agreements that Mr Murphy has been eulogising will keep the spads under control and that we will not have a repeat of the dreadful, awful situation that arose as a result of RHI, when spads from all parties broke every code of conduct, every rule in the book and every gentlemen's agreement that was possible.”
“How often do we hear people measure a Bill, a motion or a question not by its content or validity but by the person who is articulating the argument? <BR /> <BR />We come now to a crucial stage in the Bill. I am glad to say that there seems to be a coalescence, if I read the tea leaves correctly. Even on the second group of amendments, there is a fair degree of agreement, which surprises me. I told the people back at home not to expect to see me until 2.00 am: actually, it looks like they will see me at a sensible time. That shows that sense is prevailing. <BR /> <BR />I detect from Sinn Féin that it knows that it has lost the battle, that this is the endgame and that Mr Allister has been able to convince many MLAs of the benefit of the Bill.”
“I am therefore Whip-less and spad-less, and it is absolutely blissful. I am in exactly the same position as Mr Jeremy Corbyn, the former leader of the Labour Party, who is still a Labour MP, but, when he is inside Westminster, he is an independent. I know that Mr Murphy and Mr O'Dowd have been agonising over my status for many months, but it gives me the freedom to say that my experience of spads has not been a happy one and I am delighted that Mr Allister's Bill has made so much progress. <BR /> <BR />Can there have been a Member who has bent further backwards to meet the concerns of Members about his Bill? In the corridors of the Building, I have many times heard, "That was wonderful, that was sensible, but it comes from Jim Allister. If it comes from Jim Allister, it must be suspect".”
“He was delighted to have it, and I am sure that it is behind glass in a drawing room somewhere in South Down. <BR /> <BR />Mr Murphy seems to be somewhat confused about my status in the Building. I am a semi-detached member of the DUP. Outside the Building, I am the official DUP MLA for South Down; inside the Building, I am an independent unionist wandering in the political darkness and wilderness without the friendly advice of spads and Chief Whips. I miss them so much”
“First, I congratulate Mr Allister, because I think that he is on the cusp of being the first MLA in the history of perhaps not just the Assembly but the Northern Ireland Parliament to have successfully steered two private Member's Bills through this Building. That is a remarkable achievement. Mr O'Dowd paid Mr Allister a backhanded compliment by saying that his Bill had attracted 81 amendments: that shows the scrutiny that Mr Allister has had to face to get his Bill through. I have listened to the contributions from Members, and it looks as though he will be successful in that respect; indeed, I understand that he will get a copy from the Palace of his private Member's Act after Her Majesty gives it Royal Assent. At least, Mr McCallister got one for his Caravans Act.”
“Would it not be absolutely terrible if members of a Committee, having had that information released to them, used it as an opportunity to push for deserving schemes for the benefit of the people of Northern Ireland or their constituency? We cannot have that going on in the Assembly. That would be terrible.”
“The meat of the debate will come after this — presumably after lunch — when we get down to the much more controversial nitty-gritty issues. Please do not oppose the Bill simply because Jim Allister's fingerprints are all over it. That is an absolute nonsense. If Mr McGuigan was to propose a Bill — an anti-litter campaign Bill — I would not stand up and say that it has got to be wrong because it is from Sinn Féin. I would look at the merit of the legislation and judge it by that, rather than by the person who is proposing it.”
“The amendments before us are very much technical in nature and clarify what should have been brought up long before now, but I accept that many of them improve the Bill. I do not see that there is much in the way of controversy, but I would like an answer to Mr Frew's point about the status of the senior civil servant who can intervene. Who will that be? What powers will they exercise? That needs to be clarified. Beyond that, there is a lot of merit in the proposals.”
“The Members opposite have just thrown that back in his face. <BR /> <BR />In the years leading up to the RHI inquiry, the behaviour of spads on all sides in this Building was absolutely disgraceful. It besmirched this Building. In fact, it led directly to the fall of the Executive. I believe that Mr Allister's Bill goes some way — in fact, a long way — to addressing public concern about the behaviour of spads.”
“<BR /> <BR />I would not like to think how many amendments to the Bill Mr Allister proposed, including quite a few that are before us, such as those to the first clause. Once again, I am keeping myself within the correct parameters. He has tried and tried to meet the concerns of Members. In many cases, his amendments have strengthened the legislation. It was unfortunate that, on a couple of major points, that did not happen, however. Mr Muir, having obviously received his orders from the Justice Minister, stood up and opposed what I thought was an important part of the Bill, and that helped to secure its defeat. I hope that Mrs Long is proud of what she achieved. The point is that, time and time again, Mr Allister came back with amendments and tweaks to his Bill to try to achieve consensus.”
“The fact is that I have never seen anybody be so reasonable in promoting a private Member's Bill. He spent hours before the Committee discussing its concerns with the Bill. As it happened, fortunately, he turned out to be a member of the Finance Committee, so the Committee had the benefit of his expertise. There is a lot of merit to the proposal that those who are promoting a private Member's Bill should be allowed to sit ex officio, but without a vote, on the relevant Committee. I see a lot of merit in that, because, fortuitously, we had that situation with Mr Allister. It was absolutely invaluable. Regularly, he had to declare an interest for that reason. It certainly helped the promotion and scrutiny of the legislation, however.”
“, Mr Deputy Speaker. Anyhow, I will try to come back to the amendments anyhow. I will just respond to Mr O'Dowd's intervention first. Yes, but at least the DUP has had the sense to see that things went badly wrong with its spads and is supporting Mr Allister's legislation. Mr O'Dowd's party is still opposed to every jot and tittle of it. That is the difference. His party has not realised the fundamental mistake that it made by having people who were totally detached from the democratic process in bunkers up in Connolly House making decisions on behalf of the people of Northern Ireland. <BR /> <BR />Again, Mr McGuigan let the cat out of the bag by saying that the legislation is wrong because Mr Allister suggested it, including some of the amendments. I say that just to keep myself right with the Deputy Speaker.”
“Those super-spads were never elected, never stood for election, were never appointed through the normal process, were never subject to the limited controls that there were —.”
“He is opposed to the institutions and to mandatory coalition, and, because of that, everything that he does must be suspect and thus must be opposed, even when most reasonable Members of the House are saying, "Let us look at the content. Do not look at the motivation. What does the legislation actually say?". Mr Allister has been successful in achieving consensus across the House, apart from one party, that there is an awful lot to be said for what he is trying to do. Sinn Féin knows full well that, if the legislation goes ahead, the obscene situation in which dozens of Executive decisions were delayed because Ministers from Mr McGuigan's party were referring material — confidential material — to Connolly House, where super-spads made important decisions on behalf of the people of Northern Ireland, can no longer happen.”
“If Mr Allister stands up and says, "Crows are black", Sinn Féin immediately says that it is a plot to bring down the Assembly and crows must be white. Everything that emanates from the mouth of Mr Allister is wrong because his motivation is to bring this place crashing down". He is opposed to the Good Friday Agreement: well, I was too.”
“Now, at the very last minute — the eleventh hour — the Minister comes forward with amendments, having not put forward one change or one amendment at Second Reading or at any part of the Committee scrutiny. Why? That is no way to do legislation. I have opposed much legislation over the years, but I have always made a point of coming in early at Second Reading to flag up my concerns and submit amendments and changes as the process went along. We now have Sinn Féin coming up with a series of amendments. <BR /> <BR />Mr McGuigan has let the cat out of the bag, for which I thank him. The reason that there is so much opposition from his party is not about the Bill; it is about the person who wrote it.”
“We are in a rather surreal situation. I sat for every minute of the scrutiny of Mr Allister's Bill in the Finance Committee. As I said in a previous debate, the Finance Committee has turned out to be an extraordinarily interesting body to be on, and that is reflected in the very high member turnout for the scrutiny of Mr Allister's private Member's Bill. <BR /> <BR />I have never seen a more negative approach by any party in any Committee in my time in this Building. The attitude of Mr McGuigan's colleagues was simply that they were against every line, jot and tittle of the legislation: "We are totally opposed to it and will vote against every clause and sentence", which they did.”
“Will the Member reflect and agree with me, that the attitude of his party's Members is negative? He, himself, cannot be blamed, because he only arrived in the Committee late in the process, having replaced the dynamic contribution of Mr Lynch. <BR /> <BR />Does he agree with me that the entirely negative approach of his party does not reflect well on it? I have sat in this Chamber for 26 years, and I have never seen a party oppose the long title of any Bill, in that time. That just does not happen. It does not happen in the Oireachtas, Westminster or any parliamentary assembly. Does he not accept that there was ample opportunity to deal with his concerns at the Committee, and it was not taken? I have never seen a more negative approach taken by any party to any Bill in my long time in the Chamber.”
“If the Minister had attended a Baptist or a Free Presbyterian church, he would know that it certainly would not be for an hour; it is more likely to be two hours. It is a bit of an inconvenience to wear a mask for that length of time. I do not know what church he attends, but if he is getting only an hour, he is being short-changed.”
“Ms Bailey also raised a very important point about what is likely to happen on 4 January. Given his understanding of the situation and the advice that he has been given by the Chief Medical Officer and the Chief Scientific Adviser, what is his best educated guess about where we, as a Province, will be on the first Monday in January as far as restrictions are concerned?”
“Sorry about that. <BR /> <BR />As someone who has sat in the Minister's chair and who is very glad that he has not been sitting in his chair for the last month, I accept that he has been before the Assembly far more than any other Minister and, indeed, has made himself available to the media far more than any other Minister. He is to be congratulated on that. Given that we are going into recess, can he guarantee that, if a problem arises with the vaccine and the new variant, he will immediately issue a written statement to Members to update them on such a worrying situation so that we can hear that directly from him before it appears in the media or on Twitter or Facebook?”
“As someone who has sat in the Minister's chair and who is glad that he is not sitting in that chair at the moment — I have thought of that many, many times over this last while — I accept —.”
“Can the Minister, in his summation, tell us very clearly what is going to happen in the first week of January so that we have clarity? Is there going to be a lockdown and is that the latest thinking?”
“The Member, like Mr Chambers, has made some very useful points. It may be that when the decisions that she is requesting are made, we will be in recess. I think that it is important that the Minister takes this, which could be the last opportunity, to let us know what the current thinking is from the Chief Medical Officer and Chief Scientific Adviser on these issues. Early January has been suggested by many media commentators as being the likely time when yet another lockdown will be implemented. Many businesses are saying to me that it is not worth their while to open, as their Christmas trade has been utterly destroyed. However, unfortunately and sadly, they have not been allowed to claim compensation because they are not deemed as being required to close.”
“The Member has raised a valid point that, I am sure, has occurred to other Members who listened to the Minister's speech. It would have been helpful had the Minister indicated whether the variant, which is quite worrying, can be dealt with effectively by the vaccine that is available at the moment rather than our having to wait, perhaps, for a further vaccine to deal with it. I did not quite detect from him a clear indication that that was the case.”
“Does he accept that, if there is a problem with alien species, we do not have to go down the route of the diktat of Europe? We can tailor-make our own legislation in this House, and, if we want to amend or delete it at a later stage, we can do so. The problem is this: once this legislation goes through today, we are lumbered with it, probably for the rest of our lives, and cannot amend or delete it. Does he accept that?”
“accept that one is put on the Finance Committee because one has been a naughty boy? It is certainly not, by any means, a great accolade to have, although I have enjoyed it enormously. <BR /> <BR />On a point that is more serious and important than the fact that an obscure Bank-Bencher cannot get onto the Agriculture Committee, it is clear that he has expressed his concerns about the protocol. It is also clear that that was not made clear to the Committee and that it was nodding this through as humdrum, normal, day-to-day legislation.”
“Therefore, if it goes to a Division today, I will be voting against it, not because I do not believe that we should not be doing a lot to eradicate alien species but because of the constitutional problems that we are storing up for ourselves by voting this through so meekly this afternoon.”
“You can populate the Education Committee with teachers, all the nurses and doctors that you like on the Health Committee, and all the accountants you want on the Finance Committee, but woe betide putting one person who has spent most of his career in the environment on the Environment Committee. That would be dreadful. <BR /> <BR />I have never been allowed into the hallowed portals of the Agriculture Committee. It is a very special type of person who goes on to that Committee; only the cream of the Assembly is allowed on to it. Some day, many years hence, I hope to rise and be deemed fit for the Agriculture Committee, but not at the moment. <BR /> <BR />I am saying to the members of that Committee that we need to look at this. What is coming next? How many more of these regulations are we to have foisted upon us before it is too late?”
“Mr Bradley and Mr Irwin said, "Oh, but it went before the Agriculture Committee and they did not have any objections to it." That is true, but it was not aware at the time of the implications of what it was doing. Had its members been aware, had they sat in on the debate last Tuesday and heard the eloquence of the honourable Member for Antrim North suggesting the problems that we are storing up by adopting this route, they might have taken a different view. <BR /> <BR />I have never been allowed to sit on the Agriculture Committee. In my 26 years in this Building, for some reason they have never allowed me to sit on that Committee because it has the word "environment" in its title. You cannot have a keen environmentalist on the Environment Committee. Oh, definitely not; that would bring this place crashing down.”
“I am sure that it could be put through very quickly because there will be unanimous support, particularly from the Agriculture Committee because it is aware of the potential damage to farmers' crops. That could be done. That is not the issue. That legislation could be amended as we, the elected representatives of Northern Ireland, deem necessary, not being tied into some bureaucratic nightmare of an institution that we are trying to get free from. <BR /> <BR />By all means, go down this route. Some of these statutory rules, regulations and legislation will be needed and can be amended to suit our needs; others will not be needed. Indeed, they will just create endless bureaucracy and problems for our commerce and farming. Why is there this blind notion that we just rush this all through?”
“I have asked many questions for written answer in the Assembly about species such as Reeves's muntjac, and I do not believe that the Department of Agriculture is taking as seriously as it should the enormous environmental implications of allowing these species to breed uncontrolled. <BR /> <BR />I call upon the Department to take urgent steps to eradicate that species from Northern Ireland by capturing the small population on the Ards peninsula, putting them in captivity, exporting them back to China where they came from or somewhere else so that we do not damage our wildlife, crops and woodlands. That is not the issue. That is something that the Department of Agriculture should have been formulating its own response to, its own tailor-made regulations for Northern Ireland and putting legislation through the Assembly.”
“All those species are very deleterious to the wildlife, environment and farming of Northern Ireland. Many in my constituency complain bitterly about the impact of deer on crops and gardens. The argument is well made: we have to control these alien species. As we have become a much more cosmopolitan society, and as our climate warms as a result of climate change, inevitably there will be greater problems. <BR /> <BR />I am sure that Mr Lyons is very aware of the ring-necked parakeet issue in southern England, a species that is now flourishing in warmer conditions. It is not unusual to see 2.000 or 3,000 of these alien birds coming to roost at night in places such as Surrey. People are aware of this, but that is not the issue.”
“In fact, if I was to ask Mr Irwin, Mr Harvey or Mr Bradley to give me a 20-minute presentation on Reeves's muntjac, of course they would be able to, and that is because they are experienced members of the Agriculture Committee. To refresh other Members' memories, Reeves's muntjac deer is a small deer, about the size of an Alsatian dog, which has been released on the Ards peninsula. In GB, it has wreaked havoc on farmers' crops and woodlands. It has become a pest species because it has no natural predator. The result is, unfortunately, that it is almost impossible to eradicate. <BR /> <BR />We have already seen the problems with the release of mink into the environment in Northern Ireland, the grey squirrel and, of course, for those interested in aquaculture, the zebra mussel and the Canada goose.”
“Lord Morrow, the former honourable Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone, said that he had a 45-year political career and if the only thing that he had achieved in that 45 years was that he was able to help get Northern Ireland out of the grasp of the European Community, he will feel that he achieved so much. He is right; that is a fundamental change. Why, oh why, are we trying, at this very late stage, with only a few days left before we leave Europe, to rush through binding legislation that we cannot amend and that we will be stuck with forever? <BR /> <BR />As I said, I am not for one moment decrying the need to control alien species. I am sure that members of the Agriculture Committee are very aware of the threat that is posed by Reeves's muntjac. I am sure that that phrase is on the lips of every member of the Committee.”
“Many of the points that I would like to make are similar to those that were made on last week's adoption of regulations. As a keen environmentalist and one who has dealt with alien species, this is not an issue of whether Northern Ireland requires legislation to control alien species; that is something that we, as an Assembly, through the Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs, can adopt, and it can be tailor-made for the needs of Northern Ireland through our own legislation. <BR /> <BR />The problem with what we are doing this afternoon is that we are, yet again, rushing through legislation that has incubated in Europe. It is being rushed through at the last moment when, of course, we will be free from the European Union on 31 December. We will be out, and that is not a day too soon.”