Diane Dodds
West Belfast · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“Minister, that is a brilliant segue into the question that I will ask. Just over 5% of women who are now seen within the 14-day target for a suspected breast cancer in Northern Ireland. That has happened since the list was regionalised. I get the fact that cancer cases are rising, but —”
“Minister, for Members and those who are listening to the debate, it is important that you tell us what "actively being considered" means on a day-to-day basis.”
“Thank you, Minister. The Muckamore inquiry report demonstrates a shameful period for our health service, and no one involved can, in any shape or form, come out of this with any kind of credibility.”
“Let me be clear: experimental treatment on children that can have lifelong implications is unconscionable. Children of 11 or 12 are in no position to give clear consent to the use of such drugs, especially when those administering the treatments had them banned because of the lack of evidence on their long-term impacts.”
“Once again, I will speak in the House about puberty blockers and the nationwide trial run by King's College. I now understand that the Government will issue new guidance that will allow such a trial to go ahead.”
“It is now anticipated that more than eight out of 10 couples in which the woman is under 40 will conceive naturally, but that leaves two out of 10 who will need additional interventions. Over a lifespan, that is a fairly substantial number of people.”
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“The general public are tired of platitudes, and they want to know, in the interests of reconciliation, that such atrocities can be condemned wholeheartedly. <BR /> <BR />Let me try another one. Ian Sproule was killed by the IRA. Such was the ferocity with which the bullets hit his body that the IRA later phoned his family and told them to go out into the yard and look at the mess that they had left him in. In the interests of reconciliation, will the First Minister condemn such actions? Actually, will she go further? Given the allegations of collusion with the gardai in relation to the death of Ian Sproule, will the First Minister use her influence to call for an inquiry into such collusion?”
“Minister, you need to ensure, and we need to hear from your Department, that that performance level is reviewed and kept at an appropriate level.”
“Yes. We need to address that particular issue. We also need to address the issue of assurance for screeners in future. The national performance level for that is 90%, but the Southern Trust adopted a lower performance level.”
“I thank the Minister. I appreciate that this is something that the trust and the Department should take and have taken very seriously. However, a number of issues are still outstanding. We have a remarkably low uptake of appointments in relation to the cervical screening.”
“Many of those women will want to see the review procedure conducted fully, including not just their HPV status but the cytology behind their tests. Many of them want to know what the process is —.”
“However, this is something that has been known about for some considerable time and, if I have written down the figures correctly from the information that was given at the all-party group last week, to date only 1,740 slides have been reviewed and only 1,084 letters have been issued. Progress has been incredibly slow on this matter and, for some people, it will be a matter of life and death: it is massively important. I am asking the Minister today to take charge of the matter and make sure that the trust and, indeed, other trusts, have the capacity to speed up that process. <BR /> <BR />In closing — I do not want to go over my time too much, with your indulgence, Mr Deputy Speaker — there are things that some of those women have asked me to mention specifically in relation to their tests.”
“These smears are from the period 1 January 2008 to October 2021 and have impacted on 17,000 women who have had letters telling them that they are part of that review and that they may or may not need further action. That has caused huge amounts of worry and poses really important questions as to how we deal with those health issues for women. Before I get any further into the issues, may I just say that the trust is doing some amazing work in relation to this. It has gone out of its way to help, but fantastic work is also being done in the community and support is being given in the community. <BR /> <BR />Last week, the trust came to the all-party group on cancer and answered some questions on this matter, which was very helpful.”
“We talked about a strategy yesterday, and, no doubt, we will talk about another next week, but what we actually need is action. Strategies take years to develop and money to implement, but that is no reason not to have action in the meantime. Minister, if you hear nothing else today, I hope that you hear that loud and clear. I also want to acknowledge that it is important that we look at the link between deprivation, poverty and poor health, particularly for women and, indeed, for families. We need to have a strategy that does not just copy other strategies but is pretty much joined-up and quite specific: that is very important. <BR /> <BR />In the remainder of my time today, I want to focus on an issue that has impacted on 17,000 women in the Southern Trust area of Northern Ireland, which is the review of cervical smears.”
“Mr Deputy Speaker, I offer you my congratulations on your new post. I thank the Minister for coming to respond to the debate. As a new member of the Health Committee, I look forward to working with you and holding you to account but, I hope, working constructively on the important things that we do. <BR /> <BR />I offer support for the motion and the amendment. These are extremely important issues. As the Member who spoke previously said, at times, they offer an uncomfortable truth about the state of services for women's health in Northern Ireland. On a broad level, I welcome the motion as appropriate and necessary. I will make a few remarks at the outset and, then, address a very specific issue in relation to women's health. In this House, we are very fond of talking about strategies.”
“Thank you, Principal Deputy Speaker. I realise that I have outrun my time, but this is a matter of huge importance, and I would like to hear some of the things that we can do that are quick wins in order to bring about solutions to the problem.”
“One of those is to try to get to a position in which 22·5 hours of education for three- to four-year-olds in Northern Ireland is guaranteed and we make up the 30 hours by some kind of voucher scheme for parents, who could perhaps use or save that as they wish. I am keen to hear the Minister's view on that. <BR /> <BR />We can also do much more in our schools. Wrap-around care in schools tends to be extremely variable across Northern Ireland, with places where there are schools that have five days a week of wrap-around care where children can go from eight o'clock in the morning until later on in the afternoon and places where there is zero provision. By investing in our schools, we can provide part of the solution to the problem.”
“Those are all really important issues, and, again, I am delighted that, in the House today, we have acknowledged the need for childcare provision for parents who have children with special educational needs. <BR /> <BR />My colleague from North Antrim referred to the fact that the previous Minister of Education looked at the DUP policy of trying to provide 30 hours of childcare for children aged three to four. We know that that is not enough and that we need to do more, but a strategy takes many years to put in place, and there are some quick wins that we can have within that strategy in the here and now.”
“If you allow me to progress just for a minute, I certainly will. <BR /> <BR />I will look at this in a couple of ways, the first of which concerns the intervention and sustainability that are required for the childcare sector. We have heard about childcare businesses that have had to close. We need a sector that is not always on the edge and teetering on the brink, as it has been in the past number of years. That will require not just sustainability but training and proper pay for staff. That is massively important as we go forward. It also requires us as a society to recognise that childcare, as the Member for South Belfast said, is not about babysitting. Childcare is about the development of our children. It is about looking after them in a setting where their potential can be reached. It is about support for families and the economy.”
“I absolutely agree with the Member. In citing Ministers, I do not mean to be exclusive but to demonstrate to the House that it is a matter for the whole Executive and not just for the Minister of Education. He will need the support of the whole Executive in bringing forward a strategy that is reasonable, feasible, fully costed and affordable.”
“There have been many fine words in the Chamber today, and that is all to the good, but the harsh reality is that we will need a fully costed strategy for childcare. That will require mature cooperation across the Executive. It will require the Minister of Health, with regard to minimum standards. It will require the cooperation of the Minister of Finance to provide the means for it, and it will, of course, require the work and dedication of the Minister of Education to bring forward the strategy for the Executive. There is a huge challenge in that today.”
“Thank you to all who have made a maiden speech today. It is not an easy thing to do in this House. This is one of the most worthwhile areas on which those maiden speeches could have been made. <BR /> <BR />I want to acknowledge, as vice chair of the all-party group on early education and childcare, the work that has gone into the debate and the many organisations that we have met. It is a testament to that that, on the first full day of Assembly business, we are debating this issue. I pay tribute to many from those organisations who are in the Public Gallery. <BR /> <BR />I think that we all agree in the House that there is a need for a long-term strategy for childcare in Northern Ireland.”
“I will finish them shortly. They have had 18 months to resolve the issue. It is time to deal with the protocol, which disrupts the United Kingdom's internal market, leaves this part of the United Kingdom subject to the laws of a foreign political entity and subjugates the Act of Union.”
“I thank my colleague for her intervention. We all know that the rigorous implementers went off down to Dublin in the middle of a COVID crisis to ensure that the protocol would be implemented. <BR /> <BR />Returning to my point, the Government published their Command Paper on the protocol in July 2021.”
“The Government published their Command Paper on the protocol in July 2021 and have had almost 18 months to resolve the issue. The Secretary of State needs to apply some urgency to the matter.”
“The principle of consent, as conceived by the Belfast Agreement, has been ignored. For some in the Chamber, it is like pick-and-mix: take it when you want it, but ignore it when you do not. Unionism does not consent to the protocol. We will not be bullied, and our mandate will not be ignored. In any election, we will take our case to the people and renew our mandate of opposition to the protocol. <BR /> <BR />In finishing, I have a very clear message for the Secretary of State, the Minister of State and, indeed, the European Union, which is this: get on with it.”
“We have to face the fact that it is difficult to fix our health service when, as the Health Minister says, the protocol puts our supply of medicine at risk and adds cost to those medicines. It is difficult to build new schools and hospitals when the protocol adds 25% to the cost of steel coming from our own UK internal market. It is difficult to help with the cost of living when the protocol adds 30% to the transport costs for household goods. <BR /> <BR />Most profoundly of all, the protocol has caused a crisis for our political institutions. The Northern Ireland protocol has subjugated article 6 of the Act of Union and trashed democratic norms in this part of the United Kingdom.”
“It is always amazing that, when Members do not want to acknowledge or hear the truth, they make bogus points of order. It is absolutely shameful. <BR /> <BR />It is clear that the finances required to deal with the cost-of-living crisis will come from our national Government in Westminster. It is there where we are working and taking our seats to make sure that there is funding for energy payments for families in Northern Ireland. Meanwhile, the protocol costs consumers and businesses every day. In the first six months of this year, the Trader Support Service, designed to support businesses with the bureaucracy and paperwork of the protocol, has cost the taxpayer £63 million; that is £2·6 million every week. The protocol means that Northern Ireland citizens cannot benefit from UK-wide tax changes, since we are tied to EU VAT rules.”
“Just recently, the Finance Minister told us that the potential overspend in the Northern Ireland Budget was £660 million. In response to a question, I received an answer from the Education Minister this morning in which she indicates that there is a resource pressure in Education of £530 million. That includes funding for children with special educational needs, school holiday food payments, increased energy costs and the Engage programme. It is time to be honest and straight-talking about what this place can or cannot do about some of the issues.”
“It is abundantly clear that today's debate will do nothing to fix the political situation that we find ourselves in. There is scant acknowledgement of the concerns of unionism about the protocol and little regard for the facts on the increasing costs of living and the Assembly's ability to deal with them. At the outset of my remarks, let me be clear that I want to see devolution restored. I believe that a stable, prosperous Northern Ireland with a properly functioning Executive and Assembly is good for all of us. <BR /> <BR />Everyone feels the cost-of-living pressures. I dare say that everyone in the Chamber cares deeply about our health service, our schools and our economy, but we must be real about the Assembly's ability to deal with those issues.”
“<BR /> <BR />I thank the Bill sponsor and those who made it possible.”
“We do not want to take away a legal form of discrimination and leave anomalies behind. That is important. I hope that, given the amendment that we supported and the time that we have in which to do this, there can be sensible conversations about how we take all these issues forward in their totality. <BR /> <BR />I want to put on record that I have engaged with a number of education sectors on the Bill; indeed, as Pat Sheehan said, it was, largely, supported by all the sectors that gave evidence to the Executive Office Committee. We will therefore support the Bill today, but I want my remarks on the additional issues to be noted, so that we can go forward and look at the whole landscape and make sure that everybody has every opportunity for every job, no matter who they are or where they come from.”
“As the DUP Member who has spoken on the Bill, I assure the sponsor of my support and congratulate him on getting it to this stage. I also wish him every success as he takes on new roles in life. This will absolutely not be the last time that we hear from Chris Lyttle. I am confident of that, and I wish him well as he goes forward. <BR /> <BR />The Bill is important in Northern Ireland. I have had reservations about the process by which we arrived at Final Stage today. I would have preferred that the Bill had more consideration, because it deals with one element of discrimination in employment but is silent on some other issues that are very important and that we need to discuss, such as ethos and the Catholic certificate in religious education that is required by some schools.”
“I trust that the Ministers in each Department will take this work on board and that it will not take too long before the practical effect of the Bill is seen in education, health settings and the wider community. Thank you for all your work, and thank you, as well, to all who presented from community groups and those who advocated on behalf of women and girls.”
“It is important that people can have access to the products in a dignified and confidential way. <BR /> <BR />The Bill comes on the back of pilots already introduced by the Northern Ireland Assembly. When I was Minister for the Economy, I introduced pilot schemes to provide sanitary products in further and higher education institutions. The Minister of Education, my colleague Michelle McIlveen, has made £2·6 million of funding available to provide free sanitary products in schools. Those were important staging posts for the Bill, and I am glad that we have been able to make progress and show how necessary they are. <BR /> <BR />I again thank Pat Catney, the Bill sponsor. I reiterate, Pat, that we still need to ensure that the funding and business case are absolutely sound.”
“It is also a Bill about dignity. It is very important to remember that we took some time in the Education Committee to look at that particular aspect of the Bill and added some amendments, which were accepted by the Bill sponsor, in order to look at dignity.”
“I apologise that I cannot be in the Chamber today. I send huge congratulations to Pat Catney for getting the Bill to this stage. I know that he thinks that I asked him some very awkward and difficult questions as the Bill was progressing, but he has always known that I am supportive and will continue to support the premise of the Bill, because it is about inclusivity and equality, and it will change the lives of some young people in Northern Ireland. <BR /> <BR />As has been mentioned, the Bill is necessary because one in 10 young women find it difficult to buy sanitary products, and one in seven find it a struggle to afford to buy sanitary products. We do not want to see young women and girls who are at school or in education be unable to continue with their education journey because they are unable to buy sanitary products.”
“That would seem to mitigate circumstances in which the supply of period products to certain premises could be discontinued only at the end of the three-year period, rather than through an earlier update of the regulations, if that was, indeed, required. <BR /> <BR />We will oppose amendment No 14, which undermines the agreement reached on amendments at Consideration Stage that rightly emphasised the reality that it is women and girls who will benefit from the provisions in the Bill.”
“Amendment No 8 amends the frequency of the proposed requirement for Departments to review regulations and monitor the impact of the Bill from every three years to”
“However, we are also clear that that should not be to the detriment of consultation on a sectoral basis when informing the detail of regulations or, indeed, of target monitoring of the impact of the provision on different establishments.”
“<BR /> <BR />Amendment No 4 would ensure that regulations specifying the premises that are covered by the duty to provide period products can be made by two or more Departments acting jointly, as long as the bodies that are specified are within the remit of at least one of those Departments. Again, that seems to make sense, and it would allow for a joined-up approach to scrutiny by the Assembly.”
“In the main, we believe that those provisions are sensible and that they may help to avoid abuse or exploitation of access to products, as well as avoiding bills being racked up by supplying products to premises that are not routinely in use. <BR /> <BR />Some schools raised concerns on that front, and it is crucial that there is scope in the legislation to address the point. However, we hold reservations about the new power to make descriptions of those who are eligible to avail themselves of free products. That should not give Ministers licence to move away from the reality that it is women and girls who will benefit from the provisions. That said, the proposal in amendment No 7 to make regulations subject to the draft affirmative procedure may provide a barrier to that, allowing greater scrutiny and accountability.”
“That may afford more flexibility by ensuring that the provisions of the Bill can be implemented, however, replacing references to trusts with the definition of "hospital premises" that is set out by amendment No 21 may narrow the scope of the duty to provide products. We are not against a targeted roll-out of provisions, but it would be helpful if the Minister explained whether there is any notion of the extent to which the amendment would change that. <BR /> <BR />Amendment No 2 would allow Departments greater discretion to define the extent of eligible premises, describe those persons who are deemed eligible or not eligible for free period products and make the distinction between premises that are in use and those that are out of use.”
“<BR /> <BR />I welcome the opportunity to participate in the debate on the amendments. I will limit my remarks to amendment Nos 1, 2, 4, 7, 8, 14 and 21. Amendment No 1 stipulates the bodies that will ultimately be required to provide free period products. The Bill specifies that those are the health trusts, regional health and social care boards and bodies that are responsible for schools and educational premises. Amendment No 1 proposes to instead capture bodies with functions relating to hospital premises, bodies with functions relating to schools and bodies with functions relating to higher and further education.”
“I rise to support the general principles of the Bill. As I have said on many occasions in the House, the thrust of the Bill was already in the pilot projects that were instigated by the Department for the Economy in further and higher education and by the Minister in the Department of Education. It is an important Bill that deals with social inclusion, poverty and ensuring that no girl is excluded from school or the workplace because of an inability to purchase period products. <BR /> <BR />Having said all that — the Member knows that I have been consistent in this view — this is another example of a private Member's Bill that will bring significant cost but that has no business case to outline the cost to the taxpayer. However, it is important that we support the Bill, and I will support it.”
“<BR /> <BR />I support the Bill, and I hope that the 24 months can be used to iron out some of the issues that the Chair of the Committee presented in her summary of the evidence that was given to the Committee. Many people were worried about the general Christian ethos and values about which people would want to have an honest and transparent conversation. People also commented on barriers to fair employment that are not strictly related to the Bill, such as the certificate and access to it. <BR /> <BR />I would like the 24 months to be used positively in order to iron out some of those difficulties, but we support the Bill.”
“I support the Bill and thank its sponsor for the work that has gone into it. In the previous debate, I stated my concerns about the process, but no one in the House is in any doubt that the Bill is necessary and the right and proper course of action. <BR /> <BR />On the amendment, as many have pointed out, the Department might have liked to have longer. However, when we look at issues, we sometimes see that creating the practical conditions for things to change takes a little time. I am content with 24 months' notice for the Bill to come into effect, although I believe that many schools can make it happen sooner by doing it informally.”
“I agree with you. You made some very valid points. There is support across the House for the principle behind the Bill, and so it has been deemed right to rush its stages. I have a general concern that we are now governing by private Members' Bills. That will be to the detriment of the House. The lack of scrutiny and consultation is to the detriment of the House and of good legislation.”
“I will in a moment; of course I will. I just want to make this point. <BR /> <BR />It looks at the exemption from fair employment law for teachers — that is a good thing, because we should employ people on the basis of equality and of their qualifications to teach a particular subject — but the Bill does not look at the barriers to education and to employment in schools. It does not look at the very important issue of ethos and how some schools may or may not want to protect it. The Bill also does not look at the issue of the certificate of education that is required for some Catholic maintained schools. Although this is a necessary Bill and I am happy to support it, we have, in many ways, ignored the wider issues in the processes around it.”
“Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I support the principle of the Bill, but I put on record my concerns about the process that it has taken. I have spoken to the proposer of the Bill at length and agree that it is necessary in principle, but it seems that we are now giving accelerated passage to private Members' Bills in the House. I spoke at Second Stage about some of the concerns around what the Bill does and what it does not do. Although it looks at the legal exemption from fair employment law, it —”
“I thank the Minister for giving way. Those are really interesting points about the impact of the Bill on existing schools. Will the Minister elaborate on how it would impact on a school such as Lagan College that operates academic selection and streaming?”
“Thank you, Mr Speaker. Is it really in order for the Member to ask for such a thing just to cover his blushes?”
“I thank the Member for giving way. Like many on this side of the House, I have spent many hours debating the Bill and discussing its implications not just in the House but in the community. What will the Members who could have stopped the Bill today say to, for example, the people whom they met in Aughnacloy recently, where, when challenged to say whether they would stop the Bill, they replied, "Trust us"?”
“I thank the Member for giving way. He paints a stark picture and indicates that the Bill will go some way to alleviating it. If you want to encourage inclusion, how on earth is a Bill that supports only one sector and gives advantages to one sector over another, which will inevitably divert resources because of the legal duties on the Minister and the Department, the right way in which to do it? <BR /> <BR />May I also inform the Member that even I went to a school that was integrated. It had pupils from both communities. It was one of the many wonderful grammar schools in Northern Ireland. My children went to the same school. We should be heading towards that kind of inclusion, whereby we go to a school because it is a good school.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. We have spoken about the issue on many occasions, so I respectfully ask what he will say to Alison Lindsay, the principal of Carrick Primary School in Lurgan where, out of 500 children, 147 are newcomer children to Northern Ireland. There is a wide mix of religions and languages in the school. Children are prepared for communion and confirmation, but it does not and will not fit with the ethos defined in the Bill as an integrated education. It will not benefit from any of the additional legal duties that are bestowed on the Minister courtesy of the Bill. Surely the children and staff in schools like Carrick Primary School deserve a much more integrated experience than this.”
“That came from CCMS, the controlled sector and a range of other stakeholders.”