Diane Dodds
West Belfast · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“Minister, that is a brilliant segue into the question that I will ask. Just over 5% of women who are now seen within the 14-day target for a suspected breast cancer in Northern Ireland. That has happened since the list was regionalised. I get the fact that cancer cases are rising, but —”
“Minister, for Members and those who are listening to the debate, it is important that you tell us what "actively being considered" means on a day-to-day basis.”
“Thank you, Minister. The Muckamore inquiry report demonstrates a shameful period for our health service, and no one involved can, in any shape or form, come out of this with any kind of credibility.”
“Let me be clear: experimental treatment on children that can have lifelong implications is unconscionable. Children of 11 or 12 are in no position to give clear consent to the use of such drugs, especially when those administering the treatments had them banned because of the lack of evidence on their long-term impacts.”
“Once again, I will speak in the House about puberty blockers and the nationwide trial run by King's College. I now understand that the Government will issue new guidance that will allow such a trial to go ahead.”
“It is now anticipated that more than eight out of 10 couples in which the woman is under 40 will conceive naturally, but that leaves two out of 10 who will need additional interventions. Over a lifespan, that is a fairly substantial number of people.”
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“I stand to be corrected, but I am pretty sure that the Department does not have a duty to do that for other sectors in the education sphere. Therefore, the Department would be doing that on behalf of the integrated sector when it does not already do it on behalf of other sectors. The obligation in clause 8 is very significant. It is not just a strategy, because, within that strategy, the Bill indicates that we would have to:”
“It seems imperative, then, that we have clause 5A at Consideration Stage if there were to be further amendments or clarity sought from the Members opposite. That is very significant. <BR /> <BR />For those of us who sat through the process in the Education Committee, clause 7 was very problematic. I read very carefully amendment No 27 proposed by the Bill sponsor. It is probably a convoluted way of doing this. The Minister's amendment provides, I think, a clearer way forward. <BR /> <BR />I will focus the House's attention very briefly on clause 8, which states:”
“I will not take up a lot of the House's time on this group of amendments because much of what I was going to say has already been aired. <BR /> <BR />Clauses 4 and 5 are the pivot on which the Bill turns and are very significant on the definition of supporting integrated education. In this group, we have the opportunity to consider new clause 5A. If I am paraphrasing my colleague Peter Weir correctly, Mr Deputy Speaker —I know that you are going to get clarification on this matter for us — amendment at Further Consideration Stage would not allow us to introduce a new clause but only to amend an existing clause. <BR /> <BR />It seems that clause 5A is crucial for those who have thought about the pivotal nature of clauses 4 and 5 and subsequent clause 5A.”
“Thank you. I think that the Member understands that the record will be corrected in respect of that. <BR /> <BR />The Member talks about a single education system. Of course, that was my party's long-term goal when no others in the Assembly wanted it. However, as the Member says, we are where we are. Is she then content to preside over a Bill that would see one sector elevated, both in the legislative duty on the Minister and, of course, the ongoing ramifications of that legislative duty, over other sectors?”
“First, will the Member remember to correct the record? There is no such thing as a Protestant school. There are state controlled schools. Secondly, will she accept that sweeping generalisations, such as "Catholics go to Catholic schools and Protestants go to Protestant schools", are entirely wrong? I have been around for a long time. I went to a grammar school that, even in my day, was — naturally — a fairly integrated school. Why was it integrated then, and even more so now? My children went to the same grammar school. Why? It was a very integrated school, accepting pupils from all religions and all backgrounds, but they went there because it was a good school. That is what will drive parental choice.”
“CCMS, of course, will carry on with its statutory duty to promote and look after Catholic education, and that is entirely fine. The Department will be mandated to take that on for the integrated sector, but who will look after the controlled sector? Of course, EA, as the general planning authority and as the managing authority for the Controlled Schools' Support Council (CSSC), will be the body responsible. However, at the end of the day, you have to ask this: where is the plan for the controlled sector in the Bill? How is that equitable for all our children? <BR /> <BR />I will leave it there. I, of course, do not support clauses 4 and 5. In an age when other parties in the House scream about equality on everything, those clauses are an example of inequality at its height.”
“I go back again, without any apology, to what my colleague Mr Newton said and to what I said at the start: how is that fair or equitable in any society? How are we treating equitably the 90% of children who are educated in controlled, maintained and Irish-medium schools if we rush through clause 5? <BR /> <BR />I want to address — I will address this in the group 3 debate as well — the fact that there is an onus on the Department to do that. From looking at the evidence that we were given, I see that, if I am correct, NICIE has a budget of £632 million, I think — sorry, £632,000. It has staff, it works with boards of governors, it has area-planning structures, and it is fully integrated into the area-planning process, yet the Department is to take that on. Who will take it on for the controlled sector?”
“I sat through the budget stuff that came to the Committee, and officials explained to us, in very great detail, how the budget, over the next three years, has at least a £350 million hole in it. That is just to stand still. That is not to start to treat the inequalities in education and implement something like 'A Fair Start'. We are just standing still, and we already have a gap of £350 million. The Sinn Féin Finance Minister has now decreed that there will be a further 2% cut across that budget as a whole. Yet, in the Bill, the Department is expected to meet future demand without equivocation. There is only so much cloth, and you have to cut it accordingly to make sure that you meet demands. However, the legal onus that the Bill places on the Department means that other sectors will suffer in order "to meet the demand" in clause 5.”
“Essentially, those parties that will fast-track and push on ahead with the legislation are actually making legislation, crossing their fingers and hoping that it will all be all right in the end. That is a dreadful position for us all to be in. <BR /> <BR />I will turn very briefly to clause 5. Again, I have very considerable concerns about clause 5. We have already established that the duty on the Department, under the Bill, will be significantly different for integrated education than it will be for any other sector in Northern Ireland. The duty in clause 5, as originally drafted, would ask the Department, without equivocation, to provide:”
“Those are not my words; that is the response from CCMS on the changes that would come about by changing the dynamic and having one sector being promoted or supported while other sectors are not in that position. That takes us to an issue that is for the next set of amendments that we will debate: how the words "promote" and "support" will interact with area-planning solutions and how the Department will have to act as the promoter and supporter of integrated education in that area. <BR /> <BR />When we got legal advice — and not to divulge that advice — it was pretty clear from anyone whom we talked to about the Bill that this is a series of judicial reviews (JRs) just waiting to happen, and I can certainly see a number of those in this area of the Bill.”
“Lest you think that it is just me or my colleagues raising dust or a fuss, I want you to understand, and I want the record of the House to understand, what other sectors are saying about the use of the words "promotion" and "support". I go back to the response from CCMS, which states:”
“No, we have exhausted the point about consultation, to be honest, and we all have a view on the consultation. That is the truth of the matter. <BR /> <BR />I have been speaking to a number of the other sectors, and I will read, for the record of the House, the response — a few sentences from the response, you will be relieved to know — from the Catholic maintained sector. In its response, it says:”
“At this point, while I remember, as an aside, I say that, when we talk about consultation for a Bill of this magnitude, remembering that the changes will mean an awful lot to people in Northern Ireland, we are referring, of course, to the consultation in 2016-17 and the lack of consultation before the Bill was introduced.”
“No. I want to come on to the issue of development proposals, and we will deal with those issues there. <BR /> <BR />When I look at amendment Nos 13, 14, 16 and 19, I see amendments that perhaps strengthen the Bill and do not in any way diminish the inequality that will be associated with the Bill. In preparing for the debate and in discussions around the Bill, I have in particular reached out to other sectors. Most sectors will have had contact with our members on the Education Committee.”
“We do not want to engage in semantics around "promote" and "support". They are pretty much the same thing. In fact, some people I spoke to in my evidence-gathering for the Bill indicated that "support" has perhaps an even stronger meaning than "promote", so I am not really interested in the semantics of this. I think that it is essentially and fundamentally wrong to place a duty on the Department in respect of one sector that it does not have in respect of other parts of the education system.”
“<BR /> <BR />I will give way, and then I have some more points to make around the sector.”
“I will finish the point and then I will give way. <BR /> <BR />What is going to happen if clauses 4 and 5 are voted through? They will put a duty on the Department to include an additional duty in relation to the integrated sector, and that will be to "promote". My colleague Mr Stalford, who has left the Chamber temporarily, has proved that "promote" and "support" are fairly interchangeable and have no substantial difference in meaning. We are moving away from a position where children and sectors are treated equitably, and that is a regressive step for education. I do not think that our education system is perfect. There is room and need for change in education, in how we deliver education and in the broad, even basis of what we teach. However, we cannot do it in isolation for one sector, and that is what clauses 4 and 5 do.”
“A similar duty is applied to the Irish-medium sector by way of the 1998 Order. In essence, these two sectors already enjoy a special privilege that is not afforded to other sectors, the controlled or the maintained.”
“Again, I am glad to be able to contribute to the debate on the Integrated Education Bill. I will pick up on the point at which my colleague Mr Newton left off. My party is concerned about ensuring that education is a priority for the Assembly, that it is fair to all sectors, that the distribution of resources for education is equitable, and that no sector is promoted over another. If we start from that premise and then examine clauses 4 and 5 of the Bill, we immediately encounter significant problems. <BR /> <BR />For the record, there are four main sectors in Northern Ireland concerned with education: controlled, maintained, integrated and Irish-medium. Essentially outside those sectors are the voluntary grammar schools. At the moment, schools that are designated as integrated already have an extra duty applied to them in law.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. Does he also agree that there is a right for parents to choose and that, while many parents say that they want children to be educated together, they make an active choice of a Catholic maintained school, a voluntary grammar or some other part of education, based on academic record? Does he agree that parental choice is an important part of our system?”
“To be fair to the Bill sponsor and those who support the Bill, I accept that it is about only one sector. I state clearly, however, that the Bill — I worry intensely about this — will set one sector against another. As we go through the amendments, I will point out where the Bill sets dangerous precedents and leaves behind other sectors that are important to parents and pupils and for the future of education in Northern Ireland. I will leave it there.”
“Maybe it would have been more appropriate if you had.”
“I have listened carefully to the video, and I know that the Member may have had a hand in providing some of the information for it.”
“When I make a point. <BR /> <BR />Why are the SDLP, Sinn Féin and the Ulster Unionist Party rushing to support a Bill that will treat around 90% of our school population in a different and unequal way? Surely our young people deserve better. <BR /> <BR />I will give way, but I want to make a final point. I cannot help but smile at the irony of Sinn Féin, through Pat Sheehan, talking about people coming together and tackling segregation. Mr Sheehan nearly needs to have a conversation with his party colleague from West Belfast, who wants there to be a segregated Irish language community at Queen's University with separate accommodation and separate facilities. That is not the way to encourage an inclusive Northern Ireland or to tackle sectarianism and division in our society.”
“The implication is there, in many cases. When I talk to other sectoral bodies, they say that the Bill's implication is clearly that the most meaningful way of delivering diversity is only through an integrated education. <BR /> <BR />All of that leads me, in finishing, to ask this: why are parties in the House not looking at those aspects of the Bill?”
“When I have made the point, certainly. <BR /> <BR />I have given the House figures on the diversity of the controlled sector; indeed, as the Chair of the Education Committee said, the controlled sector has the fastest-growing number of integrated schools in Northern Ireland. <BR /> <BR />I will, of course, give way.”
“Will it tackle the inequalities in how education is accessed for certain members of our society? Sadly, it will not. The Bill will create a hierarchy of sectors in the education system in Northern Ireland. Over the period when the Bill has been discussed, I have met many different sectors in education, and there is profound disquiet that the definitions and purpose of the Bill will lead to further inequality and unfairness. The ethos of the Bill — that inclusivity in education can be delivered only in an integrated setting — is strongly contested by other sectors. In its evidence to the Committee, CCMS noted that Catholic schools are rooted in their local communities and that they are successful in building relationships and interacting with other schools, sectors and businesses.”
“Amendment No 24, proposed by the Minister, clarifies that and would leave a general duty on the Department, but we need to take this amendment alongside amendment No 70, which gives us a support of the definition of "education bodies". This is the core of my argument: complex, radical change, as proposed in the Bill, is not and should not be taken forward by a private Member's Bill but should be given the proper considered debate that it deserves. <BR /> <BR />As I have said before, we all want to see a society that is more equitable, inclusive and respectful of diversity and that values everyone, no matter what their background. A truly settled and prosperous Northern Ireland will elevate those values. Will that be achieved by the Bill? Is this a panacea for educational underachievement?”
“While the Bill deals with the integrated sector, how are those not also features of the controlled, maintained and voluntary grammar sectors? To suggest otherwise is a slight on those who have taught for many years in all those sectors. <BR /> <BR />Amendment Nos 24, 25 and 26 deal with clause 6 of the Bill. In its original form, the Bill sponsor advances the requirement that education bodies, even CCMS, have to include:”
“I do of course, and I will have something to say about that at a later stage, as the Chair of the Education Committee knows. <BR /> <BR />The House should reflect on this as well: interestingly, the figures given to us by the Controlled Schools' Support Council show that 28% of controlled school pupils are entitled to free school meals. That is an area that the House should focus on, and it is the area where the real inequalities in education arise: how those who rely on free school meals access education and how well they do in it. <BR /> <BR />Amendment No 5's proposed new subsection 2(a) is also problematic. It states:”
“That sector will not benefit from any of the provisions in the Bill that will be afforded to the integrated sector, yet it is perhaps more diverse and inclusive than many integrated schools.”
“No Department would proceed with legislation of such import without, at the very least, updating its original consultation. <BR /> <BR />Clause 1 of the Bill looks at the definition of integrated education, and amendment Nos 1 to 9 deal specifically with that. The clause moves away from the current legal definition of integrated education and widens it with different social and economic criteria. Those criteria, however, could be applied to many schools. Figures provided to the Education Committee by the Controlled Schools' Support Council (CSSC) show that 61% of pupils in controlled schools are Protestant and 10% Catholic and that 39·5% of all newcomer pupils in Northern Ireland — that is, those who come to settle in Northern Ireland — attend controlled schools.”
“It has the same duty towards the Irish-medium sector. It does not have a similar duty towards the controlled or maintained sector. The Bill would lift that duty further, creating a hierarchy in education in which the controlled and maintained sectors would be at the bottom of the pile. Clearly, the Bill will have a radical outworking in the education system in Northern Ireland. Such a change, as the Minister said, should be considered in a more holistic way and should be part of the independent review of education. <BR /> <BR />I put on record my real concern that the Bill has been allowed to proceed without an up-to-date consultation process. By the sponsor's own admission, the forerunner to the Bill was consulted on in 2016-17. It is now 2022.”
“In the past few days, the leader of the Ulster Unionist Party has declared that the Bill will start the end of "education apartheid in Northern Ireland". The Bill will do no such thing. The purpose of the Bill is to support the integrated sector, and it will, in its practical effect, add a further layer to education legislation in Northern Ireland — legislation that will take precedence over existing legislation. <BR /> <BR />The Department of Education already has a duty to:”
“I am also thankful that that can be experienced in other parts of the education system in Northern Ireland, including the special education sector. I also state my support and appreciation for the many schools that cooperate with each other through their area learning community and the shared education experience part of the curriculum. In Banbridge, for example, pitches at St Patrick's College are regularly used by the whole community, and subjects are taught on a shared basis between St Patrick's and the local controlled high school. Moving our society to a more inclusive basis through education is not simply the preserve of one sector. I would like to see more shared learning by making use of the enormous resource that is further education. <BR /> <BR />There have been many claims about the Bill and its purpose.”
“At this stage of the debate, as others have said, we are to focus on the purpose of the Bill and the definitions employed to define that purpose. The Bill is about the promotion of integrated education, and that is where it stops. The sponsor of the Bill, to be fair, has stated that clearly and has made no apology for it. That is fine; it is completely her right to set the intent and purpose of the Bill. <BR /> <BR />The vast majority of people in Northern Ireland will, of course, agree that the concept of our children growing up together, playing together and being educated together is something that we can all support; indeed, I am thankful that I — yes, back in the day — and my children experienced education through attending a school in the voluntary grammar sector where everyone was welcomed regardless of faith or background.”
“I thank the Minister for giving way. I sat through the consultation process in Committee. I probably attended every very long session of that consultation process. Many of those who came to present to the consultation process — I can speak for many of the sectoral bodies such as the controlled and maintained sectors — said that they were surprised that the Bill was presented without further consultation other than the original 2016-17 consultation exercise. Indeed, they were taken aback by that process. <BR /> <BR />I will make another point. The Committee process itself was deeply flawed. I put my concerns on the record about how we received the legal advice on the Bill on a Wednesday and were asked to make a formal consultation response on a Thursday. I do not consider that to be an appropriate consultation.”
“We should remember that the Department of Education is the Department of Education and that it is for the Department of Health and the Minister of Health, and, indeed, the Chief Medical Officer and Chief Scientific Adviser (CSA), to give guidance on health issues in schools. I note that our Chief Medical Officer recently said that schools are safe and that they need to stay open because of the societal harms that happen when they are closed. <BR /> <BR />I also heard in the debate, and, indeed, it came up —”
“Thank you, Mr Speaker. <BR /> <BR />That, of course, is right. We need to have some sense of proportion. There are tens of thousands of teachers in Northern Ireland. The numbers that would be produced by doing anything like that would be absolutely miniscule compared with the number of teachers who are out there. <BR /> <BR />Teachers are experiencing difficulties and very challenging times, but the schools that I have spoken to emphasise that they will do anything that they can, with the help of the Department and the Minister, to ensure that they stay open. <BR /> <BR />In today's debate, there has been a lot said about the guidance that has been transmitted to schools.”
“It would therefore be very challenging for them to be dropped into what is a difficult situation.”
“Another clear issue is that of staffing in schools. If a teacher is off with COVID, that is a particular problem. The Minister has looked at the issue, and there is no quick or easy fix for it. One of the things that we are perhaps not focusing on is the fact that the success of the Engage programme means that many of those who would otherwise be on the substitute teacher list are teaching in schools full-time. There has been some suggestion that our final-year education students at Stranmillis University College, St Mary's University College and Ulster University could suddenly go into schools to take the place of those teachers. We have to be very careful about that, as we have to be fair to those young students. Much of their higher-education experience has already been disrupted by COVID.”
“<BR /> <BR />One of the most important recurring themes of my engagement over the past days was the absolute necessity, expressed by teachers and school leaders, to keep schools open. That was magnified by one school leader who teaches in a large sixth-form college in Portadown. She indicated that many of the mental health problems, such as anxiety and feelings of loneliness, that many young people have experienced are a result of schools not being open. When I talk about schools being open, I mean not open to transmit remote learning but open for face-to-face teaching. Some sleight of hand is being undertaken by some people on that issue. We need schools to be open, and it is important to pay tribute to the determination and leadership shown by schools and teachers in these very challenging times.”
“In preparation for the debate, and as part of an ongoing engagement in my constituency, I spoke to a wide range of schools in Upper Bann over the past week. A number of recurring themes came forward from that engagement, which I will refer to. First, we must acknowledge that schools are a bedrock of our society. They offer opportunities not just academically but to build character and for well-being. For many of our children and young people, school is a safe place — a sanctuary. School is a place where they can socialise freely without fear; a place where they receive their only hot meal of the day; and a place where they escape very difficult family circumstances.”
“We will all agree with the Minister that it is of the highest priority to keep all of our young people in school, not just for their education but for their emotional health and well-being. In light of the rising number of infections, will the Minister give the House a flavour of the number of pupils who are in attendance at school at the moment?”
“People across Northern Ireland will be appalled, and rightly so, that the Executive Office has not been able to agree a response to such a simple question about how we will celebrate Her Majesty's remarkable years on the throne. <BR /> <BR />Does the First Minister agree that that is just another one of those Sinn Féin tactics that causes great hurt and harm among those in the community in general in Northern Ireland who respect and show loyalty to Her Majesty? Will the First Minister commit to further engagement to see whether there can be a fund for communities in Northern Ireland to properly recognise that important occasion?”
“I thank the Minister for his answer. I am glad to note that the Sinn Féin Finance Minister intends to bring a Budget to the Assembly at last. <BR /> <BR />When officials were at the Education Committee the other week, they indicated that there would be a £350 million shortfall in their budget, going on the baseline that had been provided for them. Will the Minister make that cut to Education, or will he prioritise children and young people in Northern Ireland?”
“I know the Minister is aware of the problems with the school estate on the Lurgan campus of the senior high school. Will the Minister confirm that the overwhelming majority of those who responded to the development proposal rejected the premise that it is now based on? Will she confirm what other proposals were considered?”
“Yes. Does the First Minister agree that it is important that we celebrate the widest range of culture, including the Orange tradition?”
“I am delighted that ABC council is proceeding with the bid. Last week, I was talking to the chief executive, who was in London talking to others about the bid. In the wider upper Bann and ABC council area, we have the city of Armagh, with all its culture, traditions and built heritage. We will also show some of the popular culture of today when the Game of Thrones exhibition opens in Banbridge in the not-too-distant future, hopefully. However, County Armagh is also the birthplace of Orangeism —”
“Like the First Minister, I met Members of the European Parliament this morning. Does he agree that the Northern Ireland protocol is not just destroying trade between Great Britain and Northern Ireland and is injurious to our United Kingdom's internal market but damages relations in Northern Ireland, in that the unionist community, in general, does not consent to the protocol and, indeed, no unionist in the House consents to the protocol? Surely that should give rise to concern, not just for the MEPs who are visiting but for those who are engaging in negotiation.”