Arlene Foster
Fermanagh and South Tyrone · Ulster Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“Yet, like too many projects, it has been tied up in legal wrangles. Too many infrastructure projects are being swallowed up in the courts. We need to improve the expertise in infrastructure delivery. We need better infrastructure for the next generation, but key projects being delayed by 10-plus years is unsustainable.”
“Any agreement involves compromises but NDNA had two central pillars that, I believe, remain important: ambition for devolution and a new cultural deal. The breadth and depth of issues that NDNA set us all to deliver on would have been enough to fill an entire term or perhaps more, let alone two years of government.”
“That confidence-and-supply agreement will leave a legacy but also highlights our challenges. Some £150 million has been rolled out via Project Stratum to bring broadband to rural areas and leave Northern Ireland as the best-connected region in Europe. When it is completed, the project will be transformational to our economy.”
“However, such short-term advantage comes at the cost of long-term harm to relationships. It is not a real partnership. Imbalance and instability are built in that will fester and deteriorate. If Brussels continues to think that the protocol is enough, it is in denial.”
“Colleagues inside and outside the House know very well that all periods of leadership must come to an end. That is why, when we are privileged and, indeed, honoured to hold such a position, we must not waste a moment in frivolous brinkmanship but forge ahead on behalf of those whom we represent.”
“The recommendations of the Commission on Flags, Identity, Culture and Tradition (FICT) are to be taken forward as well. I encourage all of you to do all of it, to take it forward in its totality and to speak of and implement it as one complete, independent package: a new cultural deal for Northern Ireland's new century.”
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“That is not how it works. If it was oversubscribed last year, it does not just follow through into this year. We have to make yearly allocations. We will try to reallocate this money. As the Member is probably aware, we are setting up the Northern Ireland investment fund, and we may reallocate it to that fund. We can move forward on that basis. It is disappointing that it is so late in the year, but we will try to do our best to make sure that it is reallocated.”
“The money was allocated after a request from the Department of the Environment. It now indicates that it does not wish to use that financial transactions capital. I accept and wholeheartedly agree that announcing a reduced requirement of this scale so late in the financial year is disappointing. However, there is no reason why it should be lost to Northern Ireland, and the Executive will consider reallocating the £50 million FTC, along with any other financial issues facing the Northern Ireland Executive and the block grant, through the in-year monitoring process, which I hope will happen after the talks are finished.”
“The Department of the Environment was allocated £50 million of financial transactions capital (FTC) for the ARC21 waste facility project by the Executive in their Budget for 2015-16. The Member will be aware of the announcement by the Environment Minister on 24 September 2015 to refuse planning permission for the ARC21 waste facility at Hightown Road. DOE has now formally confirmed that the £50 million of financial transactions capital is now not required in 2015-16, and it is being surrendered for the Executive to reallocate.”
“Those are the aims of the fund, and I am certainly hopeful that the money that we are spending right across the Northern Ireland Civil Service will help us deliver on those aims.”
“I am very encouraged by the level of applications to the fund. I recall that, when I was in my previous role as Enterprise Minister, we were able to draw down a significant amount of money to deal with skills in relation to the workforce. So I am hopeful that it will deliver on the aims and objectives that were set out for the fund, which were, of course, to encourage innovation in the public sector; improve integration and collaboration between Departments, arm's-length bodies, the private sector and the third sector; support a decisive shift towards preventive spending with a focus on improving outcomes for citizens; and support transformational change required to sustain medium- to long-term efficiency measures.”
“Over 120 bids were received from across the public sector, with the total amount requested equating to approximately five times the value of the fund. Allocations were agreed by the Executive as part of the Budget 2015-16. The list of successful bids is published in the Executive's Budget 2015-16. All selected projects have received funding and are at various stages of implementation. A mid-year update on progress has been sought. Spend is being monitored in-year, and evaluations will be completed in 2016-17, as per the 'Northern Ireland Guide to Expenditure Appraisal and Evaluation' guidance.”
“I am unaware as to whether they have been asked to attend the Committee. I am sure that, if they are asked, they will consider the request as to whether they should attend to help the Committee in its investigation and whether they can be of use to the Committee in its investigation. It is up to them, at the end of the day, whether they attend, but I am not aware whether they have been asked to attend at this time.”
“I cannot, because it continues to meet the Department, and I think that it would be wrong if I indulged the Member in what has been discussed with the NCA. It is a criminal investigation, and I am sure that she respects that. We will have ongoing discussions with the National Crime Agency, but, as I said, all the information has now been forwarded to the Committee for its perusal, and I have no doubt that it will look through it and ask questions appropriately.”
“I can confirm that all relevant information held by my Department has been shared with the Committee to support its fact-finding review.”
“I wrote to the Departments on 1 June this year, indicating that they should not engage in discretionary spend and should engage only in inescapable spend because I knew that we were going to face difficulties. That was before we passed the Budget (No. 2) Bill. Departments know that they have to live within their means, otherwise we will breach our control totals, and that is certainly not a position that we want to be in coming into the new year. Of course, this is all going on in the context of the talks and the fact that we need to have welfare reform sorted out and the flexibilities that were agreed in the Stormont House Agreement. I can only hope that we get that sorted out in the very near future.”
“Thus far, we have had those discussions and, obviously, we have used the Programme for Government to inform those discussions in and around our various priorities in that Programme for Government. <BR /> <BR />In the next Programme for Government, we will very much focus on outcomes and what is the best use of our resources to give us the outcomes that we desire for the people of Northern Ireland. I hope that all the parties will look to that outcomes-based process because I think that it will give us an even better outcome in the next Programme for Government round.”
“This is the argument and discussion that we have every time we have a monitoring round. If people are making bids for their Department, where does that money come from? Does it come from top-slicing other Departments, or do we reduce the allocation to other Departments?”
“Such consideration is given during the in-year monitoring process when determining whether it is necessary to apply reductions to Departments' budgets to fund pressures in other areas. It will also form part of the deliberations in the upcoming Budget exercise.”
“As I have just indicated, we have used FTC funding in a number of affordable home pilots. In 2012-13, we allocated nearly £12 million to Get Britain Building. In 2013-14, we granted £7·2 million to Get Britain Building, £5 million to affordable home loans and £3·7 million to the Empty Homes scheme. There was also money passed to affordable home loans and Empty Homes schemes in 2014-15. In 2015-16, £25 million has been granted to Northern Ireland Co-Ownership, and that has freed up £15 million of conventional capital, allowing it to be reallocated. We think that that is a good use of the financial transactions capital that we have access to.”
“We have done that through a range of measures, including Get Britain Building, affordable home loans and the Empty Homes scheme. We have used FTC in that context, but, if there are new, innovative ways to use it for social housing, I stand ready to look at those as well.”
“The current funding model for social housing utilises an element of public grant funding to try to lever in additional private finance. Even during the very recent housing turmoil, there was no problem in accessing private finance for social housing. If the social housing programme were to be fully funded through financial transactions capital, the rent that would be required to service the debt in relation to FTC would make it unaffordable for most social housing tenants. Now, if there are new ideas on using FTC for social housing, I will, of course, look at them. As I said in my substantive answer, we have been able to work with developers who are looking at affordable homes and to help them to build new homes.”
“I have had no discussions with the Minister for Social Development regarding the use of financial transactions capital (FTC) for planned social housing. However, I am aware that there are a number of affordable housing projects exploring options to utilise financial transactions capital.”
“<BR /> <BR />On Mr Allister's point that there are people who are fearful to retire in case they are not able to take up an offer if it were to come through, I can only say what I believe: ultimately, it will be for the Executive to decide on eligibility, but I would be very sympathetic to looking at the issue of those who retire now and miss out if a payment were to be made later. However, as I said, it is matter for the entire Executive. <BR /> <BR />I hope that the paper that Minister Hamilton circulated can reach the agenda of the Executive soon and that a resolution is found through cooperation and agreement. I will not mislead people. It will not be an easy issue, but they can be assured that they have my sympathy and, indeed, understanding as to why they should be considered for a payment.”
“The Executive will need to be very clear about any eligibility for the recognition of a moral argument and would need to consider any payment for that group of staff in relation to a range of issues, including budget, grades and the time period affected, to avoid an extension of the moral argument and associated costs to other groups of staff. I wish that I could come to the debate with a firm, positive answer for the staff, but, in the current political and financial climate, I am concerned that there is no immediate or, indeed, clear route to an outcome.”
“There is a risk that a payment to that group of staff could undermine the original equal pay settlement if there was a differential in the amounts paid, which was Mr Dickson's point. There is also the risk of the potential repercussions for other groups, such as the arm's-length bodies, and how differences in pay rates between the NIO and the NICS would need to be taken into account in any payment. We have to consider all those issues in the round, or, frankly, we will end up in court being challenged by another group or whatever on the issue.”
“The Executive need to move on the issue. You will all be aware that my predecessor, Simon Hamilton, wanted to find a way in which we could recognise the moral argument. He took the first step in getting the issue considered by circulating a paper outlining a recommendation that could, if agreed, achieve a resolution for the staff. The paper has been circulated; it has not been tabled for formal consideration, although a number of Executive colleagues have given their views on it. I referred to the Justice Minister's views on the paper, and the Ulster Unionist Regional Development Minister at the time said that he wanted very clear eligibility criteria to be set for budgetary matters. So, certain comments have been made about the paper. <BR /> <BR />It is a very complex issue, and a number of risks would need to be considered.”
“However, Westminster made money available for the original NICS equal pay settlement on the basis of clear legal advice on liability; not because they were responsible for what had happened but because the sum of money — £130 million at the time — was so huge that we needed to access money from Her Majesty's Treasury to meet the liability. It is not, unfortunately, the same for the staff in question; we have heard that there is no legal liability in relation to the matter.”
“<BR /> <BR />The amendment from Sinn Féin does not add anything to the original motion; in fact, it underlines some of the difficulties that I have mentioned with making a payment to PSNI and NIO staff. Including "a number of arm's-length bodies" widens the potential groups for consideration for payment. That, frankly, is not helpful to people who have been looking for the payment for a considerable time. <BR /> <BR />I could, of course, consider referring the matter to the Westminster Government, as was suggested.”
“The full cost of paying staff amounts equivalent to the equal pay settlement would be over £30 million. The cost of including arm's-length bodies, which, of course, is in an amendment today, could mean a further £10 million. Those are not insubstantial sums, particularly in the difficult financial climate that we are experiencing. <BR /> <BR />Mr Allister asked about the Executive paper,and, of course, he deserves an answer. It is my understanding that Sinn Féin has prevented the matter getting on to the Executive agenda. Obviously, from a First Minister's point of view, it is a paper from a DUP Ministry, so we want to have the matter dealt with, but we have not been able to have that discussion around the table.”
“The pay delegation remains with the PSNI. I think that some Members had a discussion about a business case coming to DFP through the Department of Justice. The pay delegation remains with the PSNI, so it will be with the Policing Board now. <BR /> <BR />Clearly, any agreement on the basis for the calculation of payments, setting out precisely who would be entitled to such a payment and where the money to make any payment would come from, has to be reached at the Executive table. All of you in the House will be very aware of the difficult budgetary situation facing Northern Ireland and the Executive. Therefore, we would need to agree together where money for this expenditure would come from in order to deal with the issues. It is no small issue, financially speaking.”
“All I can say to you, Mr Cree, is that it must have been decided that its pay delegation would follow the NICS route. The Police Authority did not decide to go down that route, and neither did the NIO and, later, the DOJ.”
“As I understand it, they have looked at the Financial Assistance Act. They believe that they do not have the legal vires to pay it through that and would need other legislation. I am not saying that that is a problem; I am just saying that we would probably need to put in place other legislation to make the payments. Most fundamentally —”
“Indeed, his colleague, the Minister of Justice, in response to the paper submitted to the Executive, made that very point: how would the payment be made? Would it be made through the Financial Assistance Act , or would we need other legislation? That point has been made. We need legislation if we are to go down that route, because Departments cannot pay out without the legal cover to do so. There would need to be legislation —”
“I place on record my thanks to all staff who worked in those areas during very difficult times for this country. The difficulty in finding a resolution to the issue is no reflection of the esteem in which those staff are held. <BR /> <BR />If the issue is to be dealt with in the way suggested by staff and their representatives, it is essential that the matter be considered by the Northern Ireland Executive. I hear what Mr Dickson said about an ex gratia payment based on a direction from the Minister of Finance and Personnel, but it is clear to me that this is a novel, contentious and cross-cutting issue. Therefore, it should come to the Executive, and that is what we propose to do. There would need to be legislation to provide a route for payment.”
“<BR /> <BR />Staff believe that they should not be subject to differences in financial outcome for having served in what have been very difficult areas at times right throughout the Troubles.”
“NIPSA, the union, despite having lost the legal argument, has continued to encourage staff to lobby MLAs for a payment on the basis of a moral argument. The moral argument put forward is that, if those organisations had not been given separate delegation powers and had fallen within DFP pay determination powers, the staff would have been included in the equal pay settlement. <BR /> <BR />I have listened to staff and met many of them. They have written to me and spoken to me. They have sometimes got to me by some unorthodox methods, which I will not go into today, and I have heard what they have had to say. Their representatives have written to me and, indeed, to my predecessor, and from right across the Chamber as well, so I understand very well the arguments that are made and the strength of feeling behind them.”
“He found that the pay delegations were lawfully exercised and that there was therefore no legal entitlement for those staff to have access to the NICS equal pay settlement, except where they had service in the NICS. <BR /> <BR />So, the legal position is clear. I think that is accepted right across the House. Mr Cree mentioned the £26 million being ring-fenced in the PSNI budget, but, of course, once the legal case was lost, that money was no longer ring-fenced and the legal liability was no longer there, so, just to be clear, that money is not there any more. <BR /> <BR />The legal position is important, because the Northern Ireland Civil Service cannot pay out money to staff without a legal basis to do so.”
“<BR /> <BR />However, as a result of the equal pay settlement, those groups did implement any corresponding increases in pay where they followed NICS pay rates. Indeed, as I understand it, the Police Service voluntarily followed the NICS pay upgrade, whilst the NIO and the Department of Justice implemented different scales. <BR /> <BR />NIPSA lodged a number of test cases in the County Court against the Northern Ireland Civil Service Departments, alleging a breach of contract caused by management not applying the complete terms of the settlement to those staff. As has been mentioned, those cases were dismissed by Judge Babington in March 2013.”
“A settlement was negotiated for eligible staff in the affected grades, which included an increase in pay and a compensatory lump sum. <BR /> <BR />During the period covered by the settlement, there were pay delegations in place for both the Police Authority and the Northern Ireland Office. A pay delegation means that these bodies could settle their own pay arrangements. Because of the pay delegation, staff in both organisations were unable to use the Northern Ireland Civil Service (NICS) staff as comparators. No internal equal pay liabilities for either the Police Service or the NIO similar to those upon which the NICS settlement was based were identified. Staff were therefore unable to bring equal pay claims.”
“I welcome the opportunity to participate in today’s debate on the moral argument for payments to be made to civilian staff who have worked for the Police Service of Northern Ireland — or, as it used to be, the Police Authority — or who have worked in the Northern Ireland Office, in those sections that are now in the Department of Justice. <BR /> <BR />I know that colleagues have talked about the background of the case, but, just for the record, I think it would be helpful if I briefly explain why the Northern Ireland Civil Service equal pay settlement did not apply to those staff. NIPSA brought an equal pay claim against the NICS on the basis that the, predominately male, technical-grade staff enjoyed a pay lead over the corresponding, predominately female, administrative-grade staff.”
“Yes. It is important to look at all our Programme for Government targets and make sure that we deliver on them. I am sure that everybody in the House would agree with that.”
“As the Member is probably aware, the Central Procurement Directorate has engaged on that issue quite extensively. If the Member has a particular suggestion about how we should take it forward, I am happy to meet her to discuss the issues. Social clauses have been included in many public-sector procurements. From my experience in DETI, when we were involved in the building of Titanic Belfast, we had a number of social clauses, which worked to great effect. However, if the Member has other suggestions, I am quite happy to look at them.”
“<BR /> <BR />I am sure that the whole House agrees that it would not be a good situation if we were to have the GB model in place for I do not know how long without the mitigation measures. That would be a problem.”
“I hear what the Member says, but we are concerned that there may be a gap between the primary legislation and the secondary legislation, and, during that gap, what happens to welfare recipients? Will they have to deal with GB instead of having the mitigations that we agreed in the Stormont House Agreement? That is a matter of concern. I note what the Member said about the Scottish system, but you have to remember that Scotland was in the GB system for quite a while before it had the mitigations put in place. As I understand it, the mitigations were agreed only a couple of months ago, and I think that they were of the order of £100 million. Scotland has put that in place.”
“Let us be clear: we hope that that does not happen and that the parties can finally, finally come to a decision on the implementation of the Stormont House Agreement and welfare reform. If that is not to be the case, the Secretary of State has indicated that she will legislate at Westminster, and it will then depend on what powers she takes to do that and what that will look like. A number of options are open to her, and we will have to wait and see. However, as I said, I hope that we can come to an agreement in Stormont House and that that will not happen.”
“I do not have those figures in front of me, so I am happy to write to the Member and give him those figures.”
“I received some recent correspondence from the Minister of Justice in relation to the ongoing work. I am glad that that work is progressing. When we have a definitive figure for the site, we will certainly work with colleagues to make sure that we make as many representations to the Treasury as we can. As the Member knows, the money was ring-fenced at the time, and then it went back to the Treasury. It was never actually ours; it was ring-fenced in the Treasury. We need to make the case again for Desertcreat, and I am happy to do so along with colleagues.”
“I say again, we would not start from here on a wide range of issues, but we have to deal with where we are and, therefore, have to have transitional arrangements to do that. I look forward to the report from the University of Ulster — or Ulster University, to give it its proper title. I hope that we can have that sooner rather than later so that we can discuss its findings.”
“I was going to say, Mr Dickson, that that is above my pay grade in terms of the different sectors in education. Of course, if we had a clean slate, we would not start from here; that much is very clear. We have a large number of different sectors, and we have to try to deal with what we have. <BR /> <BR />He may not agree with me on this point, but I have engaged on numerous occasions with the shared education sector. I have seen the work that has been going on between the controlled and maintained sectors in Fermanagh in particular and how that is bringing young people together. It is very impactive for those communities: it not only brings the young people together but brings the parents together in a way that has not happened before.”
“I will have to check whether those car parks are under my control or that of Parliament Buildings and the Commission. That is certainly something that I can come back to the Member on.”
“I agree with the previous Speaker. As you know, he took a very progressive view in relation to opening up Parliament Buildings to the public, and that has continued under the current incumbent. I really welcome that. A lot of people had not visited Parliament Buildings before then, and it is great to see the number of young people who now engage in visits to Parliament Buildings. <BR /> <BR />We are looking at what we can do with the grounds of Stormont, and the Member will be aware that a number of events have taken place there. Hopefully, we will be able to come forward with proposals and share those with the Committee.”
“I can certainly pass on the Member's concerns about the emissions problem to the Minister of the Environment and to the Executive more widely through correspondence. I think that, in America, they are taking steps to check other vehicles to see whether they have been involved in what will be known as the Volkswagen scandal. There is no doubt that it will cause great difficulties for the company.”
“No, I have not raised that issue. With emissions, there are stricter criteria in the USA than here in Europe, and that is what has caused the difficulty in America. It seems that Volkswagen has taken an innovative approach to try to disguise the emissions from its cars. It will cause the company severe embarrassment, and it looks as if billions of pounds have been wiped off its share price literally overnight because of it. It is a very serious issue, and the question of emissions is probably more for the Environment Minister. It will cause great difficulties in production for Volkswagen.”
“We have, of course, outlined forecasts for our budgetary process, but it is difficult to be definitive because we do not get the actual figures until the end of November, and that causes us some difficulty. I am trying to have all the other pieces in place before then.”
“I thank the Member for his supplementary question. I do not think that I am breaching any confidences when I say this, but that issue was raised today at the Stormont House talks. The report is not due to be with us until November, but I will try to have it with me by October if possible so that we can figure it into what we are trying to do around our budgetary processes at the moment. Members are probably aware that the comprehensive spending review is not supposed to kick off until, I think, 25 November. That causes us some difficulties with our draft Budget process, and, therefore, we are trying to get a clearer picture of how we move forward.”