Naomi Long
East Belfast · Alliance Party · Northern Ireland
“Underneath the Facebook posts to say that he had passed away, people speculated with such comments as, "Probably high on drugs", "Probably drunk", and, "Typical boy racer". There was all of that speculation. It was hurtful to the family, and it was inaccurate.”
“There are circumstances that we need to consider and be careful of. I was told, for example, that, when the issue of good character references at trial was being looked at in New South Wales — Committee members may wish to look at this for themselves — one of the groups that opposed their removal was representative of domestic abuse victi…”
“It sets out the strategic direction adopted by the Department and key partners to tackle those appalling crimes and protect vulnerable victims of exploitation.”
“The provision seeks to provide protection, via legal advice and representation for complainants, against the use of non-relevant personal material and evidence of previous sexual history being used in the court process.”
“<BR /> <BR />On the wider issue of ensuring that a withdrawal of services never happens again, I think that most of us agree that, although everyone has the right to take industrial action, no one has the right to derail and hold to ransom the entire justice system in that way.”
“Those measures will go some way towards helping to support complainants and enable them to have input into the decision-making process about what records containing their personal and sensitive information are required to be shared with the defence.”
The complete record
Every one of 7,548 lines we hold for Naomi Long, in date order, each linked to its source. Free to read, in full, without an account. Page 4 of 151.
“On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I believe that, because of the petition of concern, the Member may not have moved the amendment.”
“I do not think that your microphone is on.”
“On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I assume that this is a point of order, but I cannot hear you at this end of the Chamber.”
“— on a homophobic basis and are rarely challenged.”
“We cannot create and the DUP should not contribute to the kind of repressive environment where people are fearful of being open about their sexual orientation on the basis that, even when they come to the House —”
“The fact that a victim came forward and said that could not even find the words to describe what had been done to her because she was not aware that it was as wrong as it was represents a failure of relationships and sexuality education. <BR /> <BR />Jeffrey Donaldson is not the first and will not be the last closeted gay or homosexual person to have felt the need to live a closeted life because of the sanctimonious, puritanical and judgemental environment that has been fostered in this place by politicians and religious institutions. That is separate and distinct, however, from accusations of sexual assault and paedophilia. Let us never conflate the two, because that trope has been used to damage many people whose sexuality is private and their own business and who are entirely engaged with consenting adults, as is right.”
“Questions about what was known, when it was known and what actions were taken must be asked and answered transparently. From the 'Spotlight' programme, it appears that, by people's own admission, no action was taken in those cases. <BR /> <BR />There are questions not only for political parties but religious and faith-based organisations. Serious disclosures were made to people in pastoral positions, and, again, nothing was done to safeguard the victims or other vulnerable people. It is long past time that faith-based counselling was properly regulated and subject to the same standards as other counselling, including in respect of safeguarding. <BR /> <BR />This also raises again the issue that relationships and sexuality education in Northern Ireland is fundamentally flawed.”
“This is about victims: two women who had the courage to come forward. I trust the fact that they got a measure of justice last week will encourage others to come forward and give them confidence in the belief that, irrespective of who their abuser is or how historical the abuse is, there can still be justice for victims. <BR /> <BR />Since that, it has become apparent that senior members of the DUP were made aware of other potential victims. While it should always be for an individual victim to decide whether to pursue a criminal prosecution, that does not absolve those who knew of those cases of their safeguarding responsibilities. Some of those people are still in high office in politics, including as Speaker of the Assembly.”
“<BR /> <BR />Last but not least, I place on record my thanks to the Speakers of the House and the wider team, the Bill Clerk, the Bill Office, and to the many officials who, over seven or eight days, have been in the Chamber until later than most of us would wish to be. I appreciate their dedication. Without it, we would not be able to deliver the legislation that we do. Ultimately, legislation is a team effort, and to all those who played a constructive role in that effort, I say, "Thank you". I sincerely hope that Further Consideration Stage will be a much more sedate and swift affair, when we finally get there in the autumn.”
“<BR /> <BR />I also thank the Office of the Legislative Counsel and my own Bill staff in the Department of Justice. When people talk about the Bill team in the Department of Justice, they often imagine that it must be a huge engine room full of people. You could count them on the fingers of one hand — if this hand actually had some fingers on it for once. It is genuinely a small team, yet they have navigated the passage and scrutiny of this Bill, the Criminal Justice (Sentencing etc) Bill and the Victims and Witnesses of Crime Bill, which was introduced yesterday. I pay tribute to them and to the Office of the Legislative Counsel for the efforts that were needed to get us here today.”
“I am also aware that much has been made of the fact that the Bill came, let us say, in two parts, but I want to pay tribute to the Committee for showing flexibility and patience as we navigated an ever-changing scene. Unfortunately, when scrutiny takes a year and a half, the world moves much faster. This was the only legislative vehicle that we really had, so some of the things that I would have preferred to do in a different Bill ended up being put into this Bill. However, I appreciate the work that the Committee did, and I welcome the fact that the Committee did not waste the opportunity to introduce its own amendments either, and to propose some things that, otherwise, would not have happened in this mandate. I thank all the Members who participated.”
“Without their scrutiny, cooperation and questioning, the Bill would have been poorer, so I thank them.”
“However, I want to record my thanks, if I may, to the Chair, Deputy Chair and current and former members of the Committee for the work that they have done and to the Committee's support staff.”
“It does not address at any level how our Prison Service is to meet gender recognition certificate obligations or, indeed, any other obligations that it may have to transgender prisoners in any other respect of prison life. For those reasons, the amendment is premature and, whatever the motivation behind it — I presume that it is well intended — it should not be supported. <BR /> <BR />That concludes my remarks on the group and, indeed, this stage of the Justice Bill. We can all agree that it has taken considerable time to get to this point in the Bill's Assembly passage. We cannot complain because we are all as guilty as each other in having elongated the Consideration Stage debate.”
“I would not seek to frustrate it. <BR /> <BR />Clearly, amendment No 97 pre-empts any court ruling in the Equality Commission challenge. It would therefore also create two further issues. First, Prison Service would be out of lockstep with the rest of Northern Ireland and all other public authorities in having to apply section 212(1) of the Equality Act 2010 and the outworking of the Supreme Court ruling directly and without the proper guidance from the Equality Commission. Secondly, the interpretation that is imported by section 212(1) of the Equality Act 2010 is confined solely to rule 90 (3A) to (3C) and prison accommodation in Northern Ireland.”
“It is for the High Court to consider the implications, therefore, of the most recent ruling from the Supreme Court, which is ultimately founded in its original decision. Mr Justice McAlinden has been clear that all views should be heard in the case and has invited evidence from any organisation that has an interest in the outcome of the judicial review. <BR /> <BR />In order to support the court in its decision-making on a complex and sensitive issue, Northern Ireland Prison Service will submit affidavit evidence outlining its current processes and the unique challenges that it faces in respect of managing risk and ensuring the safety of all prisoners. Prison Service takes its duties in respect of equality, human rights and prisoner safety extremely seriously. We will, of course, seek to abide by any ruling handed down by the High Court.”
“It is not about ideology but about the protection of people who are most vulnerable. <BR /> <BR />Members will also know that the Equality Commission for Northern Ireland has asked the High Court for a declaratory ruling on how the Supreme Court's interpretation of the Equality Act in Great Britain should be applied in the different legal context of Northern Ireland, including in relation to obligations under article 2 of the Windsor framework. The High Court's view on that matter is still awaited. The Equality Commission will then need time to consider what that means in practice and translate that into practical guidance. We obviously keep a watching brief on that matter because it is of critical importance not just, I have to say, in prisons but across our public services and, indeed, many others.”
“Therefore, the ruling on the meaning of "man" and "woman" may not be directly read across in this jurisdiction, although it remains highly persuasive. However, taking action in this jurisdiction on the basis of a ruling on a different policy in another jurisdiction would be unwise. <BR /> <BR />Again, the Member for North Antrim to my rear suggested that I should seek legal advice on those matters. I assure the Member that we have been in continuous contact with legal advisers both in the development and the implementation of the policy since the Supreme Court ruling and the most recent judgement on Scottish prisons. It would be a dereliction of our duty were we not to do so. Unlike others who come to the Chamber with their ideology front and centre, I am interested only in the safety of prisoners: that is it.”
“I have never denied that reality, and those Members in the Chamber who have sought today to suggest otherwise are misguided at best and malevolent at worst. I have never sought to ignore what the Supreme Court said, nor would I. As I have already said, however, the Equality Act 2010 does not apply in Northern Ireland, whereas it does in Scotland, nor is the current policy directly analogous to that which was appealed in Scotland. Rather, it is based on a risk assessment.”
“I understand the ruling in Scotland, but, with respect, I am not the Scottish Justice Minister, that policy is not my policy and NIPS is not the Scottish Prison Service. I therefore I have to come back to here and to what we are talking about, and there have been no examples of any harm being caused to a trans prisoner, a female prisoner or a male prisoner as a result of how we have chosen to house trans prisoners in the prison estate. <BR /> <BR />Members will be aware of the Supreme Court ruling last year, which held that, under the Equality Act 2010, "sex" means biological sex. I acknowledge that that was reaffirmed last week in the Court of Session's ruling on the Scottish Prison Service's policy on the management of transgender prisoners.”
“That is because, despite my support for the trans community, about which I am very open and honest, I believe that safety in prisons is paramount. <BR /> <BR />When it comes to risk assessment and the use of case conferences, both consider the risks to any transgender prisoner and any risks that they may pose to others. A real-life scenario was outlined in the Chamber today of when somebody committed a violent sexual offence and then said that they identified as trans and asked to be transferred to a women's prison. That would not be permissible under our assessment of the rules, because that person would represent a greater threat to the women in that prison than we could justify, based on the balance of risk. <BR /> <BR />I understand what Scotland did and did not do.”
“<BR /> <BR />The Member for North Antrim to my rear referred to concerns about other prisoners' safety as an "afterthought". That is simply untrue. The safety of all prisoners is the main consideration when housing people in the accommodation that is available to the Northern Ireland Prison Service, so the idea that other prisoners' safety is an afterthought, because it was mentioned secondarily to a document that is about guidance for transgender people, seems to be a ludicrous proposition. There was no issue of its not being a serious concern. It is a serious concern. Indeed, it is the overriding concern. It is why we do not have a bright-line rule to say that all trans men go to the men's prison and all trans women go to the women's prison.”
“It means, in effect, that the section is to be treated, for the purposes of the 1995 rules, as though drafted for Northern Ireland, when that has not yet been ruled on. <BR /> <BR />The Member's proposed amendment would operate to ensure that men and women are not held together while in prison and would remove all decision-making, permitting a contrary decision from the remit of NIPS, notwithstanding the assessment of risk, the existence of a gender recognition certificate or any of the other reasonable factors to consider. At present, the Northern Ireland Prison Service supplies its guidance on the care and management of transgender prisoners to address effectively the needs of all prisoners who may find individual challenges in custody.”
“Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. <BR /> <BR />The amendment seeks to use the definition of "man" and "woman" as defined in the Equality Act 2010. That Act does not apply in Northern Ireland, however, so the attempted importation of primary legislation, namely section 212(1) of the 2010 Act, from other jurisdictions — England and Wales and Scotland — to another jurisdiction — Northern Ireland — by way of secondary legislation in that jurisdiction — Northern Ireland — could, at best, be described as a novel approach. Although it is not necessarily impossible to do so, by doing so through an amendment to secondary legislation via the Justice Bill, we risk circumventing Northern Ireland's constitutional arrangements, and I therefore do not believe that that is appropriate.”
“However, the Equality Act 2010 —. <BR /> <BR />Mr Deputy Speaker, I have indicated to the Member for North Antrim and, if necessary, both the Members for North Antrim that I will not give way to either of them because of their conduct earlier in the debate. I ask that you encourage the Member to stop asking. <BR /> <BR />The amendment seeks —.”
“The women in our prison have often faced extraordinary abuse at the hands of violent men, and I would not jeopardise a single one of them because of ideology or anything else, but neither will I engage in the kind of pantomime concern that some have expressed about women's rights and protections, when they are not willing to stand up for women on the many other occasions when women need their support. The amendment does not seek to apply the same conditions to accommodating biological females in the male estate. Think about that. Somebody who has stood here and claimed that they want to protect women from harm has made no mention of biological women being housed in the male estate. <BR /> <BR />The amendment seeks to use the definition of "man" and "woman" as defined by the Equality Act 2010.”
“I have said that I will not give way to the Member. There is no point in persistently asking. <BR /> <BR />The issue that Mr Kingston has raised is pertinent. There will be occasions when people will be housed in the female estate but will be separate from the other female prisoners. Similarly, there will be occasions when people will be in the male estate but separate from the general population of the male prison. It is not about recklessness on the part of the Prison Service, nor is it about placing women — either transwomen or women — or transmen or men at greater risk. It is about housing people in a manner that respects the individual's dignity, their identity and their right to safety. I will stand over nothing that would place any woman in our prisons at a greater risk.”
“We have only a male or a female estate at this time.”
“No. I have said that I will not give way to the Member. <BR /> <BR />The new rules would require the Department to issue guidance on the management of women prisoners. They would not prevent the Prison Service from making individualised accommodation arrangements for prisoners, but they would specifically prevent it from accommodating them within the female estate. Think about that: "within the female estate". The pertinent point that Mr Kingston raised is that we could make individual accommodation available, but we could not do so within the female estate.”
“It may be that we will eventually get advice from our courts, based on their reading of our laws, that we have to come up with an alternative means of housing prisoners. If that time comes, we will deal with that, as you would expect us to do. That will require changes to the estate. It will require significant investment in how we develop our services, and it will require time. What it will not do is take place as part of a Back-Bench amendment with none of that consideration given —.”
“While all the noise today has been about biological males in women's prisons, I am simply suggesting that Members need to think about the consequences of, for example, placing a post-operative transwoman in a male prison. That is where we do not need a rigid approach. I have to say that the initial Scottish approach was rigid, in that it simply said that transwomen are women and therefore go to the women's prison; transmen are men and therefore go to the men's prison. I do not agree with that, because, despite what some people say, I am not captured by ideology. <BR /> <BR />My focus is on ensuring that all the people in our prisons are safe, and it is important that we do that in the best way possible. At this point, I do not know what the end position will be.”
“<BR /> <BR />I have heard really ignorant statements — I use "ignorant" not in the rude sense but in the absence of understanding sense — about trans people and how they are affected. First of all, trans people are a spectrum of people. Every individual will be at a different stage of transition and, therefore, will have different issues attendant to that. Transmen and transwomen who have gone through hormonal therapy only will, nevertheless, have seen physical, bodily changes as a result of that, including changes to their strength, their sex drive, their hair, their facial hair and all those other things. That is as a result of hormonal treatment only. <BR /> <BR />There will be others who will have undergone surgical treatment, and some will have undergone complete surgical transition.”
“It is my understanding that the Department took advice from the Equality Commission. Which organisations the Equality Commission took advice from and engaged with as part of that process, I do not know that. We engaged with the Equality Commission, and we tried to ensure the safety and dignity of all our prisoners. <BR /> <BR />I find it bizarre that some of the people who are lecturing us on women's rights have had so little to say on women's rights in so many contexts over so many years. Yet, suddenly, they are championing women's rights. It is about weaponising an issue that is about the safety of women and girls to use it against another minority that is also vulnerable. The majority of women do not want the genuine concerns that we have around safety to be weaponised in that way.”
“I will not give way at the moment. To be fair, the Member has accused me of being vindictive in my approach. When I explained that I was not, he treated that with derision. I am not sure that the Member has earned the right to have me give way to him during this speech. If he has no interest in or respect for my opinions, I do not see why I would bother giving way to hear more of his. <BR /> <BR />What we have at the moment in the Prison Service in Northern Ireland is an approach that was brought forward in 2002 with advice from the Equality Commission, which is the statutory body that gives advice to prisons. I have checked with officials, many of whom have now moved on, but we are not aware of any involvement of Stonewall in the development of that advice and guidance.”
“Suffice it to say that, in order to protect the safety and the dignity of the women, men and transgender individuals in prisons, we are sensitive to the accommodation of prisoners, where and how that is managed, and how association is managed in those contexts. However, I do not want to get into the detail and the minutiae, because we are dealing with very small numbers, and it would involve my discussing what I feel are private details that, based on the advice to me, go too far.”
“As I said, because of the small number of trans prisoners whom we have held, I have not been able in the Chamber to get into the detail of how people are accommodated in the estate, because to do so would be to disclose details about individual prisoners that the Prison Service never discloses. <BR /> <BR />To put it in context, we received multiple requests overnight asking us, for example, how a high-profile paedophile would be housed in the prison estate as a result of a conviction yesterday. We have declined to provide any comment on that individual, as is right, because, although they may have been convicted of a serious offence, they retain a degree of privacy and the rights that everyone in the prison system has. I am certainly not going to get into the habit of discussing the details of how we handle prisoners.”
“No, I will not, because the Member did not give way to me on the basis that he felt that I had misrepresented him, when I had simply sought to clarify what he had said. I therefore have no intention of giving way to him, because he has, on more than one occasion today and in previous discussions, misrepresented me. <BR /> <BR />I will give way to Brian.”
“It is amazing, because some of the people who have stood up to defend women have, first of all, demeaned the women in the Chamber who spoke up with their own voice and made their position heard. They were dismissed as having been told what to say by their parties. They were dismissed as being captured by ideology. If I am going to go for advice about issues that affect men, I will probably ask a man, but if I am looking for advice about issues that affect women, I will listen to women, and I will take their views on those matters with a degree of seriousness and a degree of respect, both of which have been missing in this particular part of the debate.”
“It is very interesting that the Member asked that question, because my not being able to answer it is an answer in itself. We asked for those statistics, and the truth is that we cannot disclose the number of prisoners, because it is so small that to do so could identify individuals. It is so small — we all know the statistical reporting rules, so you can go away and work out the number that that means — that it would identify individual prisoners, and yet we spend a disproportionate amount of time concerned with that one small group of prisoners, albeit they are as important as any other group of prisoners, and little time discussing the wider issues around prisons that really matter.”
“Those same professionals have been managing these issues, not through ideology but on the basis of practicality and the values of protection of safety, protection of dignity and fair treatment. <BR /> <BR />These issues were issues long before they were raised in the House. I reflected on questions that I had received on transgender issues in the previous mandate in 2020, and you could have counted them on the fingers of one hand if that hand had no fingers. Suddenly, however, it is now the topic of conversation. People say that it is not part of a culture war, but it has emerged suddenly as it has gained momentum in other places. We come to the House and we hear ignorance around trans people.”
“The fact that Hydebank — the men's facility and the women's prison — scored top marks across the board in its most recent inspection is something that we should be proud of. We should show respect to the professionals who made that possible.”
“Every day, prisons have to address conflicts between different categories of prisoner, different cadres of offenders and between people with different levels of risk to themselves and others. Prison Service is very experienced in that dynamic management of risk. It does not take it lightly, because it affects not only the safety, dignity and mental health of the prisoners but the safety of the prison staff. <BR /> <BR />I admire the work of Prison Service and the fact that we have seen such positive reviews of our prisons, particularly Hydebank Wood, which, of course, is the prison that will be in focus in this debate. The fact that it is seen as a model of a European rehabilitative prison and won an award for that is something that we should be proud of.”
“I will treat every Member in the Chamber with respect on the basis that they treat me also with respect. I noted the sarcastic and sneering comments when I said that I did not have strong views about Mr Gaston and did not dislike him. He seemed to think that that would help him sleep more easily; I really do not care. It matters to me that I deal with people with integrity, so, whether or not he is entertained by it — I also noticed some of those around him sniggering — it is not funny. To suggest that a Minister would come to the Chamber and make decisions in a vindictive manner says more about the people who make that accusation than it does about me. <BR /> <BR />I will come to how we deal with the issues in prison.”
“The fundamental challenge is the shortage of accommodation. The Department is looking at that as part of the work that we are doing on reducing offending and reoffending. <BR /> <BR />I am happy to support the amendment. I am also happy, along with my officials, to engage with the Members who tabled the amendment to see whether there is a way through on the other sentences, but I suspect that that may be a more complex matter than is appropriate to address at this juncture in the passage of legislation. <BR /> <BR />I now move on to Mr Gaston's amendment No 97, which I do not support. If enacted, it would insert three rules into the Prison and Young Offenders Centre Rules (Northern Ireland) 1995. Contrary to what has been said — I will make this clear — it is not about who tabled the amendment, and, for me, it never will be.”
“As Members noted, there is no guarantee of where someone will be released to, and, sadly, despite the fact that we are working with other Departments to streamline the process, there can be no such guarantee. It simply depends on the accommodation that is available at the time of release. <BR /> <BR />Given the priority system for housing and other accommodation, even where the Department for Communities and the Housing Executive are in a position to indicate that there may be property available in a particular location — that would be helpful, because we could then assist somebody to register with a GP and all the other services before they leave prison — should somebody else who is of higher need become homeless in that locality, they would be displaced. That is the problem: it has to be needs-based.”
“The Member will be aware that, in the debate last night, other Members raised the issue of people having their custody reviewed when they are on remand. The judiciary has helpfully taken the initiative and now tries to hold most such review hearings earlier rather than later in the week, so that, if someone is to be released on bail, they will have the opportunity to seek the help and support that they need. <BR /> <BR />We know that lack of support for any extended period, be it over a bank holiday or a weekend, can create challenges for people, particularly those who are susceptible because of poor mental health or addiction, in managing their affairs. It can be challenging for people to register with the Housing Executive, a jobs and benefits office and other services.”
“They will, therefore, have the wrap-around support that they need to engage with services, so that should be a help to them in a way that it would not be to the cohort that we are dealing with today. Secondly, a decision was made at the time of the 2008 Order to end the policy of remissions and flexibilities in the system. That was a policy decision based, I think, on wanting to ensure that it was possible to predict when a sentence was coming to an end and that could be prepared for in advance. Those prisoners will have pre-release support in prisons to help them with rehabilitation and resettlement because their release date is determined. There are complexities around extending the provision to that cohort, but there is certainly merit in dealing with those who fall into the category that is covered by the amendment.”
“We consulted the Department for Communities in particular and other service providers, and, while they acknowledged that it would create an additional pressure on Wednesdays and Thursdays, they felt that it was a manageable pressure. For those reasons, I support the amendment. <BR /> <BR />The Member who tabled the amendment raised during the debate last night the potential to extend it to those who are covered by the Criminal Justice (Northern Ireland) Order 2008. There are a number of reasons why that may be problematic, but, as I said last night, I am happy to discuss the matter with the Member over the next few weeks and, indeed, during recess. First of all, I do not think that it is essential to do so because those who fall under that category will at some level have the support of probation prior to and after exiting prison.”
“We already bring forward Saturday and Sunday releases for those prisoners, which is why, as the Member noted, a larger number of people are released on a Friday. By bringing that forward again, we would basically move all the people from Friday, Saturday and Sunday to Thursday and Wednesday, and that has been modelled by the Department. <BR /> <BR />Being released earlier in the week may give prisoners more time to link in with community-based service providers, for example, jobs and benefits offices, the Housing Executive, community mental health teams, addiction services, GP surgeries and social services, so there are opportunities for people to receive the care and support that they need in the community.”
“I will start by addressing the amendment tabled by Messrs Frew, Bradley and Kingston and then speak to the amendment tabled by Timothy Gaston. <BR /> <BR />Mr Frew described amendment No 96 as stopping prisoners and young people in detention centres being released on a Friday or on the day before a public or bank holiday and added that that would potentially help to reduce reoffending. The amendment has the potential to have an impact on prisoners who receive mostly shorter adult sentences and are not committed to custody under the terms of the Criminal Justice (Northern Ireland) Order 2008. That represents about 25% of the prison population. As those prisoners are not subject to post-release supervision by the Probation Board, I can see the merits in bringing forward their release day if it falls on a Friday.”