Naomi Long
East Belfast · Alliance Party · Northern Ireland
“Underneath the Facebook posts to say that he had passed away, people speculated with such comments as, "Probably high on drugs", "Probably drunk", and, "Typical boy racer". There was all of that speculation. It was hurtful to the family, and it was inaccurate.”
“There are circumstances that we need to consider and be careful of. I was told, for example, that, when the issue of good character references at trial was being looked at in New South Wales — Committee members may wish to look at this for themselves — one of the groups that opposed their removal was representative of domestic abuse victi…”
“It sets out the strategic direction adopted by the Department and key partners to tackle those appalling crimes and protect vulnerable victims of exploitation.”
“The provision seeks to provide protection, via legal advice and representation for complainants, against the use of non-relevant personal material and evidence of previous sexual history being used in the court process.”
“<BR /> <BR />On the wider issue of ensuring that a withdrawal of services never happens again, I think that most of us agree that, although everyone has the right to take industrial action, no one has the right to derail and hold to ransom the entire justice system in that way.”
“Those measures will go some way towards helping to support complainants and enable them to have input into the decision-making process about what records containing their personal and sensitive information are required to be shared with the defence.”
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“He also took the opportunity to meet Fermanagh and Omagh District Council, and he agreed to work more closely with it on the matter of tackling blue-green algal blooms. <BR /> <BR />Over the past five years, there have been 387 confirmed pollution incidents in the Lough Erne system. Of those, the principal cause of pollution is attributed to agriculture, at around 44% of those incidents, followed by industry at around 16% and then Northern Ireland Water at around 12%. Sources from agriculture have also attributed around 63% of all medium- and high-severity incidents reported in the Lough Erne catchment. Since 2019, there have been 21 confirmed pollution reports associated with Northern Ireland Water assets in the Enniskillen area. All those incidents have been described as low severity.”
“Unfortunately, due to an inescapable diary clash, my colleague Minister Muir is not available to respond today, so I undertook to do so on his behalf. It may seem slightly strange, but I have a genuine interest in water quality from a previous life; a bit like what Andrew has just described. <BR /> <BR />The difficulties that are being experienced through blue-green algal blooms demonstrate to all of us how powerful our reliance on and connection to the aquatic environment are. Likewise, improvements in water quality will require all of us to limit the pressures that we place on that environment. Last Thursday, Minister Muir visited Lough Erne to see the impacts of blue-green algae.”
“Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I thank Mrs Erskine, who tabled the Adjournment topic, and all those who participated in the debate.”
“I beg to introduce the Justice Bill [NIA 07/22-27], which is a Bill to amend the law about the retention and destruction of fingerprints and DNA profiles under Part 6 of the Police and Criminal Evidence (Northern Ireland) Order 1989; to amend the law about the release of children on bail and about their detention; to permit the use of live links for the exercise of certain police functions; to make other provision in connection with the administration of justice; and for connected purposes.”
“I thank the Opposition for, on this occasion, their constructive approach.”
“That is factually inaccurate. Before I signed off on the Budget, I engaged with all the arm's-length bodies of my Department and made it clear that they were likely to face significant pressures. Had I not signed off on the Budget or had we supported the only call that came from the Ulster Unionists, which was to strip funding from every Department and put it into the Department of Health, they would be in an even more parlous situation.”
“I will continue to work with the Chief Constable, the Policing Board and my Executive colleagues to ensure that the PSNI is adequately resourced for the challenges that it faces. I look forward to Members who have taken such an interest at this time continuing to support that work in future.”
“As Justice Minister, I have ensured that the vital work of policing and justice has been properly reflected in the Programme for Government, and I am making progress on the revised environmental allowance, police pay and police numbers by working closely with the Chief Constable, his staff and the board. However, I cannot deliver that in isolation. It is not about pitting the PSNI against the Department, the Department against the Executive or even the Executive against Westminster. It is in our collective interests that we have a stable, sustainable and effective Police Service. My focus, as Minister, is on ensuring that we all continue to work together effectively to deliver that for our community. <BR /> <BR />Policing in Northern Ireland has my full support.”
“My Department's role in distributing its budget is to allocate the PSNI budget, having regard to its request for resources and the overall financial envelope allocated. Outside routine budget-setting, monitoring and allocation processes, we are commissioning and supporting the development of bids in response to opportunities for additional funding as and when they arise, including for the security element of funding. <BR /> <BR />As a locally elected representative, I am committed and determined to deliver better outcomes for the people whom I serve and the community in which we all live.”
“It is only when there is criticism of the Department that anybody in the Chamber seems to wake up to the fact that there is a problem. <BR /> <BR />The permanent secretary in any Department is the principal accounting officer for that Department. The role carries with it responsibility for ensuring the regularity and propriety of departmental expenditure, for promoting value for money and for ensuring that there are robust systems of corporate governance and financial control in the Department, including living within budgetary controls set by the Assembly. Under devolution, it is for the Assembly and the Executive to make those decisions. Money from the block grant is unhypothecated, and we need to be aware of that.”
“There is ongoing collaborative work between DOJ officials and PSNI colleagues on the pay remit documentation to secure approval of the incremental element that was commissioned on 31 July. I am pleased to confirm to the House that that was approved on Friday. The PSNI was advised and, hopefully, can now get that money into people's pockets. <BR /> <BR />The accounting officer letter, of course, has drawn some attention. It is regrettable and disappointing that private correspondence continues to be sensationalised, distracting from the constructive working relationships. Interestingly, it had the same cc list as the Chief Constable's letter, but that did not trigger a round of debate and a media circus around how desperate the police were for numbers.”
“<BR /> <BR />While we are working closely with the Chief Constable to stabilise and grow officer numbers, I am acutely aware of the necessity of providing an appropriate pay settlement for serving police officers. I am actively considering the recommendations of the Police Remuneration Review Body (PRRB). I am on record as saying that it is my desire to implement the recommendations in full, and we are focused on making that case as strongly as possible to the Department of Finance. However, I have recognised that the incremental pay award for police officers is contractual and therefore an inescapable pressure, and, on my return to office this year, I instructed officials to proceed on that basis rather than await the consolidated pay award decision. That means that officers will have that money in their pocket.”
“It would require a change in legislation and a significant change in practice were we simply to accept the ring-fenced funding, as some suggest, and hypothecation directly from Westminster, because it would entirely tie our hands, make us prioritise exactly the issues prioritised by the Westminster Government and leave us no margin of appreciation in our own decision-making. Decisions on funding allocations are made by the Executive, and I gently remind the UUP and the DUP that they are both members of that Executive. The DUP, in particular, has considerable influence over decisions that are made in the Executive: use that influence where it matters.”
“Police officer numbers are historically low, and, without additional funding, it will not be possible for the PSNI to recover and grow as, I hope, all of us in the House would wish. My officials continue to work closely and constructively with the Chief Constable and his team to build a robust case for the funding required to stabilise policing in the immediate term and to develop a compelling business case to increase police numbers over the next three years. Once that work has been completed, I will make the case to the Executive for additional funding for that purpose, but it will be the Executive who decide whether that business case is funded.”
“<BR /> <BR />There is also an issue with the upward trend in population that needs to be held against that, so we need to bottom out what the actual figures are. However, it is an academic exercise at this point, because we are so low now that to get anywhere near a figure that would not be controversial will take us at least this mandate. The Chief Constable and I have agreed to put a pin in what the ideal figure should be, work on that in conjunction with officials to bottom that out but focus on how we build recovery into the system right now. <BR /> <BR />To put it into perspective, as of September 2024, the current service headcount is 6,355 police officers.”
“Indeed, we gained some additional funding, which got us to 7,100 officers, but, because it was not baselined, that immediately fell away after that number had been achieved. It is not that efforts have not been made; it is that they have not been sustained. The figure of 7,500 officers is not a new one. It was noted as far back as the Patten review of policing in 1999, though I caution people because we have to remember that there have been changes in operations in the PSNI. Every officer, as part of a transformation process, has been given a handheld digital device so that they do not have to spend time going back to PSNI headquarters. All sorts of transformation has gone on, and that should put us in a position where the same number of officers can achieve more.”
“Police numbers are now at a record low, and that is compounded by high levels of absenteeism that are often due to sickness, stress, injury, long working hours and heavy overtime and can be accompanied by significant numbers of officers on reduced duties. When I was previously Minister, we worked with the Chief Constable and encouraged him to consider recruiting again in 2022. He chose not to do so, as is his choice. We are now in a situation where we need to engage in that recovery process. <BR /> <BR />One of the priorities in 'New Decade, New Approach' was to increase officer numbers to 7,500, but no additional funding was provided to enable us to realise the whole figure.”
“Any further actions taken by my Department to live within its budget, if implemented, will inevitably result in a slowing-down of the justice system, including the work of my Department on developing new policy and legislation, and that will compromise our ability to preserve life, protect the public and keep people safe. People need to understand that these are literally matters of life and death. This is not an academic exercise. The number of police officers that we have, the amount of time that we can commit to the justice system and the amount of money and resource that we have need to be taken seriously, if people are genuinely concerned about the state of policing and justice. <BR /> <BR />I fully appreciate the current resourcing pressures faced by the Chief Constable.”
“That included £45 million for day-to-day stabilisation pressures; £2·75 million for additional unfunded policing costs following recent disorder; and £227 million for exceptional pressures relating to the PSNI data breach, holiday pay and McCloud injury to feelings. Every effort has been made and continues to be made by my Department to reduce the level of those pressures, but that has not been achieved without adversely impacting on the justice system. <BR /> <BR />In the absence of additional funding being allocated to my Department in the October monitoring round, extremely difficult decisions on prioritisation and service provision will continue to be required to manage the remaining pressures.”
“I will support her in her efforts to address that historical imbalance in funding for justice and policing, and I will support the First Minister and deputy First Minister in their endeavours to raise those issues. That we speak with one voice is perhaps the most important thing if we are to have any impact whatever when we deal with Treasury and the Government. <BR /> <BR />I want to be clear that it is not the case that we are choosing not to allocate additional funding to policing. That funding simply does not exist. In the recent urgent in-year financial exercise, my Department reported total pressures of £275 million to the Department of Finance.”
“Northern Ireland has failed to keep pace with investment in policing and justice in comparison with elsewhere in the UK. The situation that the PSNI finds itself in is a direct consequence of that. I have also raised the need for more investment with the Secretary of State and Prime Minister on a number of occasions, and I will continue to do so not only for Northern Ireland in general but specifically for policing and justice, where, I believe, there is an inherent structural weakness at this point. <BR /> <BR />The Finance Minister, in her engagement with Treasury, has been clear and robust in highlighting the need for further investment in public services across Northern Ireland, and she continues to advocate on behalf of the Executive for the proper funding of our public services.”
“In real terms, the Department of Justice's 2024-25 budget is around £326 million below where it would be if it had simply kept pace with inflation. I give credit to my officials, who are being dragged through the mud here today. Had we had that purely inflationary uplift, we would, because of their prudent management of the finances, be within budget every year because we have no overspend, taking in even extraordinary expense. <BR /> <BR />The position that the PSNI and the wider justice system are now in is a direct result of budgets being continually squeezed over many years and disproportionately when compared with other Departments. Put simply, neither I nor the Chief Constable can spend money that we do not have. Similarly for the Executive: more money for other Department inevitably means less for policing and justice.”
“It is a matter of record that I have consistently and robustly raised the underfunding of the entire justice system relative to other Departments with Executive colleagues, successive Secretaries of State and Prime Ministers and in the media. I trust that, given the motion and the various amendments, I can now rely on all parties to commit to properly resourcing policing and justice, because that has simply not been the case to date. <BR /> <BR />While the total Northern Ireland block grant has increased by 52% in the 13 years up to 2024-25, DOJ has seen only a 13% growth in budget allocation. Health and Education have seen their budget allocations grow by just over 80% and 50% respectively over the same period.”
“While that pressure is significant even when things are calm, it is compounded when there is unrest such as that which we witnessed over recent weeks, especially when that unrest is dispersed across Northern Ireland. Those levels of pressure on policing are unacceptable, and I welcome the work that the Chief Constable, the Policing Board and my officials did to manage the challenge and address stabilisation — a project that we have been engaged in consistently since my return to office. <BR /> <BR />The motion asks that I, as Justice Minister:”
“It was, therefore, agreed at an Executive meeting in August that the First Minister and deputy First Minister, the Minister of Finance and I are going to write jointly to the Chief Secretary to the Treasury and the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland seeking the additional funding to cover the PSNI's costs. That letter is now with TEO and DOF colleagues for clearance. <BR /> <BR />The fundamental issue at the core of the motion is the chronic and long-term underfunding of the justice system. I have been consistent in raising that since first becoming Justice Minister in 2022, following on from previous Justice Ministers, including David Ford, who raised it as early as 2014. As a result of that underfunding, the PSNI is under-resourced and officers and staff are under extraordinary pressure due to falling numbers.”
“I also pay tribute to the Chief Constable for his strong leadership during that period and to the Public Prosecution Service (PPS), the judiciary and the courts for their strong response. <BR /> <BR />Members may be aware of the fact that the additional unfunded costs that were incurred for policing the riots and disorder are in the region of £2·75 million and are in excess of requirements for normal policing operations. Given the level of pressures facing the PSNI and the Department of Justice, those costs are not affordable from within existing budgets. Similarly, the level of financial pressures at block level mean that the Executive are not in a position to provide the funding that is necessary to meet those additional costs.”
“Those people offer nothing to our community, and I condemn their actions unequivocally and am disappointed that not all Members would do so in the terms that I set out. <BR /> <BR />I take this opportunity to place on record my thanks for their bravery and resilience to those officers who were involved in policing the riots and disorder. A total of 40 police officers were injured as a direct result of that disorder, some quite seriously, and I wish each of them a speedy recovery. It can never be acceptable that the police are subject to such violence, and we cannot become desensitised to its impact on individual officers and their families, on morale in the service and on the delivery of policing in our community.”
“Thank you, Madam Principal Deputy Speaker. I am grateful to be able to address these issues in the House today. As other Members have mentioned, it is Emergency Services Day, or 999 Day as it is, perhaps, better known. I begin by paying tribute to every officer and member of staff who works for the PSNI. From first responders, administrative staff, cleaners and call handlers, each person is playing a role in helping to keep our community safe. <BR /> <BR />Policing is a difficult and challenging job. We rely on the PSNI to protect us from harm 24 hours a day, 365 days a year, and they do so at considerable cost to themselves. It is, therefore, truly appalling that police officers, whose job it is to keep people safe, come under attack from rioters who are intent on inciting hatred and terrifying communities.”
“Is the Member happy to give way? As I made clear, it is not a letter that I would be sighted on in the course of my duties.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. Will he point me to where I endorsed any such attempt to gag anyone?”
“We do not have a scheme that is comparable to that in England and Wales. That deals only with places of worship that are affected by hate crime, and only 4% of attacks on churches or other notable buildings in Northern Ireland are hate crime-related. The majority are antisocial behaviour. I will pop an answer to the Member in writing, if that would be helpful.”
“There are a number of strands, so perhaps it is best, given the restricted time, that I write to the Member. There is a security for mosques scheme that the Government run, which is available to Northern Ireland. There is also the Community Security Trust, which deals with synagogues.”
“To be clear, your colleague, who is now the Health Minister, supported this on the Policing Board during his tenure there and was content with the approach that was being taken. <BR /> <BR />There is no doubt in my mind. At no time have I sought to influence the Chief Constable on operational matters. In fact, I am regularly castigated in the Chamber when I refer to the tripartite arrangements and the fact that I cannot encroach on operational matters. So, no, I will not be recusing myself. There is no doubt in my mind. I suggest that you speak to your colleague Mr Nesbitt. Perhaps he can remove any doubt in your mind.”
“No, I am not, for the simple reason that it was clarified at the Policing Board, though I accept not during your term of office, by the then Chief Constable that it did not relate to me and that I at no time engaged with him to either advise or pressure him on the actions that he took.”
“So, perhaps if we are so concerned about policing and the Chief Constable, we might want to take his advice.”
“The role of the accounting officer is the one role that I, as Minister, do not have oversight of in my Department. In fact, it is the reverse. It is the accounting officer who oversees my directions on expenditure, so I am not sighted on his correspondence in his role as accounting officer. Also, to be frank, the leaking of that into the public domain has not been helpful because it has created a very false narrative of the relationship between the Department and the Chief Constable and between myself and the Chief Constable. That relationship has been very strong. <BR /> <BR />Before we have a debate on this later, I remind Members that at the Policing Board as recently as last Thursday, the Chief Constable said that he wished to draw a line under this.”
“Those cases have worked best when we all — the judiciary, the PPS, the Department, probation and the Police Service — have been in the same space, arguing the same case for the same issues. That is how we got the cross-departmental and cross-sectoral funding that allowed us to do COVID recovery.”
“<BR /> <BR />Let me just put this in context: if I fund the police at the expense of probation, more people will go to prison and we will need more money for prisons. If I invest in policing at the expense of prisons, we will have to start looking at early release similar to England because we would not be able to manage our prison numbers. If I invest in policing at the expense of the courts, the police will be arresting people but there will be no opportunity to get them before the courts and have them charged and tried. <BR /> <BR />I have a job to do that is different from that of the Chief Constable. His job is, of course, to advocate for policing. My job is to advocate for policing and justice. It is a complete system, and we need a holistic approach.”
“I understand that the Member is new to the House, and I welcome him to his place. Anyone who has been here for slightly longer will have heard me make the same case over and over again. We have a projected overspend this year of £34 million in-year: that is for the things that, we know, will crystallise, so that is inescapable expenditure. We have another couple of hundred million pounds sitting off to the side, waiting to crystallise, and, if that happens, we will have significant challenges. I have had to ask every part of my Department to make savings. This is not unique to the PSNI. Every single part of my Department is operating on less resource than it would ideally have, and the overall share that the PSNI has had of the Department's budget has not really changed.”
“We need to protect them, and I am hopeful that the legislation that is coming through next year will achieve that.”
“I agree that increasing officer numbers would be helpful, and that is part of the stabilisation process that we are now engaged in. In order to increase numbers, however, we have to first increase finances. We have to put the current service on a sustainable footing. <BR /> <BR />The other thing that will help morale is ensuring that where officers are attacked in the street, or where they are pelted in riots, that is taken as seriously by the PPS and the courts as any attack on a member of the public. It affronts me, frankly, when I hear it reported, for example, that 40 people and four police officers were injured in a riot. Those four police officers are also people: they have families, and there are consequences. We need, more and more, to stop accepting that the police should be there as some kind of battering ram for society.”
“<BR /> <BR />The important thing is that I work closely, as I have been doing, with the Chief Constable to build the strongest possible case at the Executive table, so that funding that comes to Northern Ireland makes it into the Department of Justice's budget. To date, that has not been the case. I can give a tangible example of where a £22 million investment was due, if you like, to the Department of Justice for COVID recovery. Less than £6 million of that came to the Department of Justice; the rest was absorbed by the Department of Health. If we continue to act in that way, my Department and the PSNI will continue to be underfunded. That is not a situation that you or I would wish to have in place. We need to work together to make a robust case.”
“At the end of the day, it is about working with the Chief Constable through the structures that we have. The reality is that, in a devolved institution, the money that comes to Northern Ireland is not hypothecated. It is for this Assembly, on the basis of recommendations brought by the Executive, to vote through a Budget and decide how we spend our money locally. That is the reality of the situation. Even were the Chief Constable to be successful in lobbying Westminster, that money would come to the Department of Finance, and it would be for us around the Executive table and in this Chamber to decide where it ended up.”
“<BR /> <BR />When I came into office, I instructed my officials to move ahead with the statutory entitlement to incremental pay, which kicked in on 1 September, irrespective of whether the wider issue of discretionary pay awards could be resolved in that time frame. Every officer will get at least part of their pay settlement sooner rather than later, with the remainder to be decided once Executive pay policy is in place. <BR /> <BR />I have also sat with the Chief Constable at length to go through a business case for stabilisation and recovery, which will have to go to the Executive for approval. I am very encouraged by the interest in policing that has emerged over the summer, and I look forward to the full support of all parties in the House for those plans.”
“The first thing to say is that I have discussed it at length with the Chief Constable, and his assessment is somewhat different: he believes that morale is much better in the Police Service than when he took over, that things have improved significantly during that period and that morale is improving. <BR /> <BR />There are a number of aspects to the work that I am doing with the Chief Constable to improve morale further. First, I have looked at the revised environmental allowance for staff. I worked with the Chief Constable and the unions to ensure that there was no strike this summer. We have put in place an interim payment to all members of staff. In addition, we hope to resolve the issue completely at the end of September/start of October, and we are on track to do that.”
“Therefore, the public order elements of Judge Marrinan's report, which, in many cases, cover the same ground as the report by the Commission on Flags, Identity, Culture and Tradition, for any of you who wish to cast your mind that far back, are likely to take significant effort. I do not want to hold up interventions that will support victims in the here and now by awaiting something that may be essential in my view but that is purely aspirational to other members of the Executive.”
“Setting aside the rather vulgar framing of the question, to be absolutely clear, my heart, my mind and my efforts are all pointed in one direction, and that is to ensure that we have the best possible law and legislation in place at the end of this mandate to protect victims of hate crime and to give them access to additional protections in court. It is not me who has been engaged in grandiose spats and distraction politics. I have been focused on what my Department can do, and my officials have worked very hard, but, with respect, my officials cannot take decisions on what are controversial issues politically. That requires a Minister to be in place.”
“<BR /> <BR />To reassure the Member, I have spoken to Judge Marrinan directly, and whilst he, like me, shares a degree of frustration that we cannot move faster on this, he accepts that the two pieces that I am moving forward — the aggravator and the special measures — are the priority for the victims of hate crime. The remainder can then be dealt with in the next mandate.”
“The reality is that, in a three-year mandate, it would be impossible to do a full hate crime Bill, because not all the policy development work was possible in the absence of Ministers, and it will require considerable Executive input, particularly on the public order elements. However, the remainder of Judge Marrinan's recommendations on tackling hate crime that directly impact on victims will be brought forward in this mandate. That was not the original intention in the first-day brief, but, as Minister, I pressed for it, and that has now been accelerated.”
“First, I again extend my sympathy to Anu's family. It is one of the most horrific cases that I have heard. It speaks to us all about the abject terror in which many people in our community are living, because they are so frightened and so fearful of attack, abuse and threat. It is not a unique story in the sense that there are many in our community who no longer use public transport, who do not go out at night and who are afraid to go to work because of the perceived threat against them. That cannot be tolerated. <BR /> <BR />What the Member suggested as a U-turn has not been so. It has been exactly what I set out. I said that I would triage against emerging priorities.”