Simon Hamilton
Strangford · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“I have emphasised to the Member and the House before, that, whilst I accept that those are not good enough — that is why we have been developing the plan — there are alternative technologies in place that can present opportunities for those who just cannot get acceptable speeds.”
“I thank the Member for his intervention. There are some initiatives that I believe will help and act as a driver to improve broadband access. One such intervention is the broadband universal service obligation (USO), which is being taken forward by Her Majesty's Government.”
“I thank the Member for his question. However, he is conflating two issues. I wrote to his party leader, and indeed to all Assembly party leaders, before making the announcement that I did last week about wanting to publish the details of the businesses in receipt of the non-domestic RHI scheme. It was my intention to do that tomorrow.”
“<BR /> <BR />The Chancellor, in his autumn statement, made some more funding available for telecommunications, and my Department is studying that and seeking to avail itself of that to the fullest possible extent.”
“In addition, my Department is managing a contract for the delivery of the superfast rollout programme, which, by 31 December, will provide access to superfast broadband with speeds of at least 24 megabits per second to a further 38,000 premises, both business and residential, across Northern Ireland, including in the Newry and Armagh cons…”
“I signalled the intention to do this a few weeks ago. The Member and the House will know that inspections of all installations would have taken place over the 20-year lifetime of the RHI scheme.”
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“We can test them, model them, take account of things and decide on the best way forward. Secondly, I believe that it improves the legal robustness of this approach rather than proceeding, as some have advised me, to a long-term solution now. The Examiner of Statutory Rules points out that benefit in paragraph 6.12 of her report. <BR /> <BR />Another point raised is that the costs of the scheme are not zero. I would be the first to point out that I never said that they would be zero. My public comments on the plan were that it would reduce costs to effectively zero or, in effect, zero. The estimated cost to the Northern Ireland Budget in 2017-18 is £30 million. This plan will have a cost of between £2 million and £2·5 million.”
“Obviously, circumstances have changed, and we are now doing so in a fashion that, I freely admit, is far from ideal. <BR /> <BR />Another issue raised is that this is a short-term solution. This is a two-stage approach, and it is deliberately that for good reason. First, we need to stop the losses to the public purse; hence the time-limited solution before us. Secondly, it creates the time and space to work on and agree a suitable long-term solution to the problems with RHI. That will be done initially by a consultation to commence very soon. It will examine, as you would expect it to, the full range of long-term solutions that could be brought forward. I believe that there are benefits to a two-stage approach. First, we can consult those who are affected to find the right long-term solution. We can look at a full range of options.”
“That has impacted on the Department's capacity to undertake this important work. There has been a need to rebuild that team, and I outlined last week how we intended to do that. There has been ongoing, almost constant, work on a range of cost control options that has conversations with the Department of Finance and the European Commission, and, at times, that work has focused on different options. Options were favoured and worked up, and other options were then considered and moved above them. The accusation that the Department has been doing nothing on RHI, never mind in respect of working on cost control measures, is nonsense. It was always my intention to bring forward regulations such as these at around this time of the Assembly session, although I accept that it would be preferable had it been earlier.”
“What I was going to say before the Member's intervention was that the Department for the Economy had not been inactive in addressing issues with the RHI scheme — far from it. I want to give a flavour of some of the things that the Department has been engaged in on the issue. When I took up post, I initiated site inspections on behalf of the Department by PricewaterhouseCoopers to investigate and examine accusations of fraud and abuse. Some 20% of installations have been inspected; that is a total of 295 installations. That work has been greatly useful in informing our work on cost control, particularly on the modelling of use. We also commenced an internal fact-finding investigation looking specifically at why warning signs were not heeded and particularly at what happened with the concerned citizen.”
“Some argued that we were going too slowly; now they argue that we are going too fast. I would argue that Members who make those arguments cannot have it both ways.”
“The first point that I want to touch on is the issue of timing and why we are coming forward with the proposals when we are. There have been all sorts of suggestions as to why that is the case. It has been described as rushed, fast-tracked and a frenzy. In the Committee last week, Mr Chambers described it as going at a rate of 100 mph. I absolutely and fully accept that it is not ideal to bring forward regulations in the way that they have been. The haste in bringing them forward is not, of course, of my doing. I would have by far preferred to do so in the normal process. That is what was originally intended. I originally intended to bring these regulations to the Committee and the Assembly in the normal fashion, and I was planning to do so. Circumstances, though, have clearly changed.”
“No, let me make some progress. <BR /> <BR />Today is about bringing in cost controls that are outlined in the regulations that are before us. To permit the current situation to continue would be grossly irresponsible. We have a situation where an average rate of return for recipients of the non-domestic RHI scheme is 60%. It is estimated that over 80% of recipients are earning over 12% rate of return. That is more than the original state aid approval for the scheme. I do not believe that any of us can allow that to continue, especially when we know the consequences to the public purse. I accept that the process has not been perfect, but we need to act urgently. <BR /> <BR />I want to address the range of questions and points that have been raised by Members today and last week.”
“I commend the Minister for highlighting and illustrating, once again, his flair for the dramatic. He knows that state aid approval cannot be sought and will not be given unless there is approval from the Department of Finance and approval from this House. I am reluctant to say that it is almost a chicken-and-egg situation, given the issue that we are debating, but it is. The Minister is also well aware of our intentions in respect of bringing forward a tender for a 100% site inspections regime. I will give him a commitment to continue to work with his officials, so long as he responds to that in good faith and keeps this issue politics-free. Unfortunately, at this stage, that is not a conclusion that I can reach. <BR /> <BR />I will go back to what I was saying —”
“I am happy to do so. I would more than welcome an intervention if he is going to indicate his approval for the business case.”
“<BR /> <BR />The business case process is there to assess value for money and regularity. I understand that there have been no issues raised in respect of either. I know that the Finance Minister is just coming into the House, and I would be happy to give way to him if he were to offer approval for the scheme. The question that the Member and, I am sure, the House will want to ask is this: why is there no approval? That is a question that only the Finance Minister can answer. Unreasonably withholding approval could be unlawful, and it is certainly contrary to the commitment that was made to make the assessment politics free. I have been told that it will likely be approved but not today. I think that that says it all, and the House can reach its own conclusions.”
“It is a good question and it is one that I am happy to address now. I have not yet received approval for the business case that underpins the regulations before us, and that is deeply troubling. I submitted the business case to the Department of Finance some 11 days ago, which, I appreciate, is shorter than is usual. It was, though, given priority by the Finance Minister — comments that he has made in public and in the House. My understanding is that it was making good progress in the Department. Indeed, I understand that departmental officials recommended it to the Finance Minister for approval. I and my Department have cooperated fully with the Department of Finance. We have answered all questions and queries, and we have provided all requested information. Yet, no approval has been forthcoming.”
“The clear purpose of the regulations before the House this evening is to introduce cost control for the non-domestic renewable heat incentive scheme. The reason for these regulations — I want to make this clear from the outset and remind the House of why we are here — is to prevent a budgetary shortfall in the region of £30 million in the next financial year. There are many other issues surrounding the RHI scheme that absolutely need to be investigated, and I join other Members of the House in welcoming the announcement of a public inquiry. I look forward to that getting under way soon and concluding as quickly as possible. Today, though —”
“I can assure the Assembly that allegations of abuse will be thoroughly and vigorously investigated. Where abuse is proven, payments will be stopped and steps will be taken to claw back payments already made. These are, however, steps that will continue to be taken forward alongside the immediate priority of bringing costs for 2017-18 under control. I commend the regulations to the House.”
“In short, having taken and considered the very clear legal advice available to me, I believe that there is a very robust defence against anyone who wants to assert that the very generous original tariff and the accompanying risks of abuse and overspend should be continued. <BR /> <BR />While the original policy intentions of the scheme may have been laudable, it has been blighted by significant failings in its design, oversight and control. There have been many allegations of potential abuse, which casts a shadow over legitimate users of renewable heat installations. I recognise that some legitimate users will see a substantial reduction in their payments, but that reflects the fact that the scheme was much more generous than it was originally intended to be.”
“I will not. <BR /> <BR />Secondly, there could be a challenge based on the right to property. The European Convention on Human Rights protects the right to property as set out in article 1 of protocol 1 to the convention. The protocol makes it clear that the right must be balanced against the public interest. It is manifestly clear that action to reduce the loss of funds whilst still providing the expected level of return to beneficiaries is a much better balance between public and private interests than allowing the excess flow of funds to continue unchecked. The issue here also concerns future income, not established property. I am advised that the courts will show less concern for the possible right to future income.”
“As we are making a change with effect for only one year, we can and will make any necessary reasonable corrections when a long-term solution is developed for implementation from 1 April 2018. We will consult and listen to the views of boiler owners and other affected parties as we do so.”
“It is our responsibility as legislators to behave reasonably and respect the rights and legitimate expectations of the beneficiaries of the scheme. We recognise that the regulations may be subject to challenge on two main possible grounds. First, it could be argued that the scheme gave recipients a legitimate expectation that the original tariff would be kept in place. However, the proposed approach gives beneficiaries of the scheme payments for the next financial year that align with the levels that they were led to expect at the outset of the scheme. I do not see how it can be reasonably argued that anyone has a legitimate expectation of rates of return that are far in excess of the returns announced in 2012.”
“At a minimum, businesses benefiting from the RHI and other affected parties will be consulted, but, clearly, the more significant the change, the greater the case for fuller consultation. A significant advantage of taking the first step is to limit the flow of funds so that we secure time for that fuller consideration of the issues and to develop a longer-term solution. It will be necessary to complete the process in time for further revised regulations to be adopted well before 1 April 2018. <BR /> <BR />Before I conclude, I want to address some obvious questions that Members will have about the legalities of the approach that I am introducing today. Legislation has the power to give rights to individuals or, where it is reasonable, to restrict those rights.”
“I referred earlier to the introduction of the draft regulations being the first step of a process to restore the original policy objectives of the scheme and bring costs under control. Members will note that the draft regulations contain a sunset clause and that they will cease to have effect on 31 March 2018. That is to enable further detailed consideration to be given to future options for the operation of the scheme to ensure that the best available permanent way forward is secured. It is intended that such options will be subject to the normal legislative process, with public consultation and scrutiny by the Committee for the Economy. Precise process will depend on the policy approach adopted when fuller analysis has been completed.”
“This will bring together experts from across the public and private sectors to seriously strengthen the quality of the strategic energy advice that the Minister receives, as well as assisting to progress the overall departmental energy agenda. <BR /> <BR />The changes in the draft regulations before the House today are subject to notification to the European Commission under the state aid regulations. Subject to the approval of the Assembly, I will initiate the process of notification as soon as possible, and my officials will work with the Commission to help progress the necessary approval process. The commencement clause in the draft regulations acknowledges that that process is a necessary step.”
“To that end, I have tasked Department for the Economy officials to produce a risk assessment and audit plan to ensure that all potential vulnerabilities are identified and that proportionate action is planned and executed urgently to ensure that public confidence in the system can be restored. In the meantime, the Department for the Economy is working with Ofgem to ensure that the existing arrangements for inspection, fraud prevention and enforcement are applied as rigorously as possible. <BR /> <BR />I also wish to signal my intention to begin work immediately on establishing a new strategic energy team in the Department for the Economy.”
“This major project will take a little time to procure as it will have a value above the threshold where EU-wide tendering is required. However, once in place, we will have a new and much stronger process that will challenge abuse and take enforcement action against any fraud that is identified, including clawback of any payments that can be proven to have been illegitimate. <BR /> <BR />I am also well aware of concerns about potential fraud and abuse in respect of other aspects of renewable energy in Northern Ireland. While initial investigations have not revealed any problems, I know that people inside and outside the Assembly will want to have confidence that the problems that occurred with the RHI scheme are not present in other renewable energy schemes.”
“However, the PwC report confirmed the very serious weaknesses in the scheme and identified the weaknesses in the design, implementation and oversight of the scheme. It is of great concern that most of the anonymous allegations were confirmed as true. <BR /> <BR />Since receipt of the report, the Department for the Economy and Ofgem have been working to ensure improved monitoring and enforcement, reflecting the very significant insight and analysis presented in the PwC report. <BR /> <BR />The change in tariffs under these regulations will be accompanied by new action on inspection, audit and enforcement. It is absolutely imperative that we continue to crack down on any abuse of the scheme. Work by my officials is advancing on going to tender for 100% site inspections.”
“<BR /> <BR />In phase 2 of the work, the sample targeted the top 20 sites by projected payments, non-poultry farms with projected payments of over £1 million, and three sites chosen based on particular observations drawn from a review of application data. Given this targeted selection of sites for inspection, it is not valid to extrapolate the findings to the total range of installations under RHI. Fully eligible small and efficient installations will be under-represented. <BR /> <BR />It is important that we do not rush to a judgement or tar all RHI installations with the same brush. Many are valid and wholly legitimate and are delivering the original intention behind the policy.”
“The PwC report on this work was shared with the PAC in November. <BR /> <BR />PwC undertook a targeted programme of unannounced site inspections to address the allegations of abuse of the scheme received in January 2016. Sites to be inspected were selected using some key potential risk factors. These included the value of the projected support payments, the date of application, the presence of multiple small boilers and high utilisation. There were clearly more concerns about the applications submitted before the introduction of tiered tariffs in November 2015 than those subject to the tiered tariff. PwC also looked for cases where there was evidence of significant increases in heat output generation or usage over and beyond what was expected.”
“<BR /> <BR />The proposal today will tackle the perverse incentive to continue to produce heat beyond the amount truly needed simply in order to increase payments. From the outset, the original regulations made it ineligible to generate heat for the sake of securing payments. We can and will improve enforcement to address that abuse, but this measure will cut off immediately the most blatant, perverse incentive to use heat for financial gain. <BR /> <BR />I hope that Members will know that one of my first acts in office as Minister for the Economy was to commission an investigation of accusations of fraud and abuse in the scheme. That investigation and the continuing audit process carried out by Ofgem has already seen the suspension of payments to 33 installations from the scheme.”
“<BR /> <BR />While these changes will virtually eliminate the shortfall in the 2017-18 budget, they will not eliminate it totally. Our modelling shows that there will still be a comparatively small deficit of around £2 million. We anticipate that stronger enforcement will further reduce the cost of the RHI scheme to the Northern Ireland Budget. The new tariffs and cap will ensure that owners of small and medium biomass boilers will receive a rate of return on their original investment within the range agreed by the European Commission when the scheme secured state aid approval. That would move the scheme back towards its original policy intentions, as expressed publicly at the outset of the scheme.”
“<BR /> <BR />The tariff will be 6·5p per kilowatt-hour (kWh) for the first 1,314 hours each year, after which the tariff will drop to 1·5p. There will also be an annual cap on the number of hours eligible for payment of 400,000 kWh, which was adopted in the November 2015 regulations as the appropriate ceiling for any of the main business models supported by the scheme. This annual cap is also consistent with the November 2015 regulations for installations accredited since that date. As well as placing a limit on the high tariff, which was the main perverse incentive in the scheme, these changes will promote behavioural changes, as the tiering will encourage greater attention to the efficient use of heat. The business case makes a prudent projection of some cost savings from that effect.”
“Last week a business case was submitted to the Department of Finance, and I would like to thank the Minister, Máirtín Ó Muilleoir, for asking his officials to give priority to the scrutiny of that business case and for approaching the work with their usual professionalism and objectivity. <BR /> <BR />The draft regulations before the Assembly today are designed to give effect to the option which has been demonstrated, through that business-case process, to offer the best way ahead at this time. This will bring payments for small and medium biomass boilers accredited before 18 November 2015 into line with those accredited on or after that date. Future payments to the owners of small and medium biomass boilers accredited before 18 November 2015 will be based on the tiered tariffs set out in the draft regulations.”
“<BR /> <BR />My immediate priority is to bear down on the costs of the scheme for the 2017-18 financial year. The costs for that year are projected to be around £50 million. Against these costs, an annually managed expenditure budget of around £22 million is projected to be available. If no action is taken, that will give rise to a shortfall of £28 million in 2017-18, which will have a significant impact on the affordability of other priorities. That would be simply unacceptable. <BR /> <BR />Under my direction, Department for the Economy officials have been working for some considerable time on a range of cost control options.”
“<BR /> <BR />In his report on my Department's resource accounts in June 2016, the Comptroller and Auditor General estimated the total 20-year costs of the scheme, if nothing is done, to be £1·15 billion. This is far in excess of the £660 million that should be available as the expected 3% Barnett share of the allocation for the GB scheme. <BR /> <BR />The proposals today are the first steps towards reducing the burden on the Northern Ireland Budget of an estimated £490 million. I am determined to take steps that will effectively reduce the overspend in future years to zero. This is not the occasion or place to rehearse or come to a conclusion on the whys and wherefores of what went wrong. That will be the work of the Public Accounts Committee (PAC) and an independent inquiry.”
“<BR /> <BR />Although uptake for the scheme was initially low, application numbers increased rapidly from the start of 2015. This increase led to budgetary pressures and led to the introduction of tiered tariffs and a cap, in November 2015, through amending regulations. These tariffs apply to installations accredited after 18 November 2015, but, unfortunately, an upsurge in applications in the three months immediately preceding the introduction of the regulations meant that the annually managed expenditure budget for the scheme would be exceeded and the cost of future payments would become a burden on the Executive's departmental expenditure limit (DEL) budget. As a result, a second amendment to the regulations was made in February 2016. This, in effect, closed both the non-domestic and domestic schemes to new applicants.”
“These serious mistakes combined to create a perverse incentive to overuse the scheme and left it far too open to abuse. This led to a significant budgetary pressure, and, then, when steps were taken to amend tariffs, a major spike in applications occurred, which left us with no option but to suspend the scheme completely, as approved by the Assembly in February of last year. As a result, even participants who were using the scheme legitimately found themselves being compensated for renewable energy usage to a level far beyond the original intentions of the scheme. Furthermore, it did not provide incentives for the beneficiaries to promote the efficient generation of heat, and much of that has been played out in the media recently, with much understandable public concern.”
“The scheme sought to compensate investors for the additional cost of renewable heat compared with traditional fossil fuel. Following extensive consultation and consideration of expert advice, a set of tariffs was introduced with the aim of providing a subsidy to scheme participants that would appropriately compensate them for the additional costs of renewable heat compared with traditional fossil fuels. <BR /> <BR />However, as Members now know, the tariff that was set for what would become the most commonly used boilers — small to medium biomass boilers — was at a level higher than the market price of the relevant fuel, which is mainly wood pellets. There was also an absence of a tiered tariff that would have restricted the number of hours for which the higher tariff could be paid.”
“No I will not give way. <BR /> <BR />Let me continue. As the Assembly knows, the renewable heat incentive scheme was introduced in November 2012 with the aim of increasing the uptake of renewable heat to 10% by 2020. The renewable energy directive 2009 sets out the following:”
“Even a delay runs the risk of not having in place the relevant administrative changes that are required and, indeed, the very important state-aid approval that will need to be in place for the commencement of this at the start of the next financial year. <BR /> <BR />I am not going to spend too long on the very regrettable history of the scheme, which is still being examined by the Public Accounts Committee and which should be examined fully by an independent inquiry.”
“I also express my regret that the urgency of the situation did not permit me to provide the draft regulations to the Economy Committee for the normal scrutiny process. I am grateful to the Committee for accommodating a briefing session this morning. <BR /> <BR />This is perhaps an opportune moment to seek to address as best I can the points raised by Mr Nesbitt. He is asking for a delay for seven days. As I stand here, there is no certainty that the Assembly will be here in seven days. He suggested that, if I asked for it, the Secretary of State might do it. Oh, that I had such power. There therefore may not be the opportunity to bring in the much-needed cost controls that are inherent in the legislation.”
“This statutory rule is being made under powers contained in the Energy Act 2011, which prescribes that these regulations be laid in draft form for approval by affirmative resolution of the Assembly. I am introducing the draft regulations as the first stage of a comprehensive plan to address the fundamental flaws in the design of the non-domestic renewable heat incentive (RHI) scheme and to eliminate the abuse of the scheme, which has done so much financial and reputational damage. <BR /> <BR />I will start by thanking the Chairperson and members of the Business Committee for sitting at short notice at 5.30 pm on Friday to consider my request to have the draft regulations considered today.”
“— others walk away. Arlene Foster will walk nowhere.”
“I am working closely with her on developing a plan to mitigate the worst costs and reduce substantially the cost of the RHI scheme. Arlene Foster is a leader. Leaders walk towards the problem. They do not walk away like others do. When they have the opportunity to lead or to take on the responsibility of government —”
“Lest there be any doubt, Arlene Foster will not step aside. Why would she? She has done nothing wrong. She has nothing to fear. That is why she has called for and endorsed an independent investigation of the RHI scheme so that all the evidence is out there and the truth will be found. She fears nothing from the truth. There is no evidence whatsoever of any wrongdoing, yet people want to hang her on the basis of no substantial evidence at all. She certainly will not step down at the behest of her political opponents, who have shown themselves by their actions today and on previous days to have no interest in the substance of this and to be interested only in stunts. She will not go anywhere because she has a job to do.”
“It was to bring forward the closure of the scheme to an earlier date than that which had been agreed by the then Minister, who had agreed to close the scheme in mid March. The intervention of the First Minister and deputy First Minister at that time brought forward the closure of the scheme to February. If anything, in respect of that charge, we should thank the First Minister and deputy First Minister for their intervention.”
“<BR /> <BR />The second charge that I want to deal with, which I have heard from Members who spoke previously, is that the Minister somehow intervened to keep the scheme open for a longer period for some nefarious reason that nobody seems to want to talk about or make any suggestion about. There is not a single shred of evidence of any involvement by the current First Minister in the issues surrounding the 2015 change in the tariff of the scheme. However, in 2016, the First Minister was heavily involved and intervened, but her intervention at that time was to the benefit of the scheme.”
“That is what Mr McGlone said in the House. In all that is said in here and outside the House, let us not forget for one second the role played by Members from parties on all sides of the House in the creation and scrutiny of the scheme. I am happy to say that no one — not politicians, civil servants or external consultants — spotted the flaws. No one. Members here wish to wipe away their involvement in the creation of the scheme and their part in passing the proposals. They do not want to take responsibility for that, but they should take responsibility.”
“I thank the Member for his intervention. He makes a salient point. <BR /> <BR />The House knows full well that bad advice was given by so-called policy experts in the Department on the design of the scheme. External consultants were brought in to review the scheme. They have admitted to the Public Accounts Committee that they made mistakes, and they have apologised for those. The Assembly voted for it. This is not something that went through the negative resolution procedure or that did not have to come to the House: the House voted for the regulations to set up the scheme. They were scrutinised by and passed through the Committee. The then Chair of the Committee, Mr Patsy McGlone, is on record during the debate in the House in which the regulations were passed as saying:”
“I have hardly started, for goodness' sake. The First Minister has made it clear that she does take responsibility. She is answerable to the House. She is answerable to the Assembly. She made herself answerable to it at the Dispatch Box this morning at the request of Members whose names the motion stands in. Where were the opposition parties when the First Minister came to the House this morning to give a full and complete explanation of the circumstances behind the RHI scheme and her involvement in it? They were not here. They ran away. The charge is that the First Minister should take sole and full responsibility for the flaws in the design of the scheme. That completely misses out and obscures the involvement of Members on all sides of the House and, critically, others in the design of the scheme.”
“I am speaking as an ordinary Member, Principal Deputy Speaker. <BR /> <BR />I oppose the motion. I do so because the motion is based on a litany of erroneous charges — charges that are all without evidence. I want to do my best in the time that is available to me to address some of the issues surrounding at least two of those charges. The first one, which seems to be the argument coming from opposition Benches, is that Arlene Foster should take full and sole responsibility for mistakes that were made and flaws that were inherent in the original design of the renewable heat incentive scheme.”
“<BR /> <BR />I recently launched a short, sharp, focused consultation to take the temperature of the business community, and particularly those businesses and sectors that will be most affected by the introduction of the apprenticeship levy. What I want to see coming from the consultation is, first, a better sense of the impact that the apprenticeship levy will have on businesses and, secondly, some ideas coming forward from businesses as to what they would like to see us as the Government, and as a provider of skills training for businesses, do in response to this tax on their businesses and on the public sector.”
“I am on record as saying that I am not a fan of the apprenticeship levy, which is a tax being introduced from next year on businesses right across the United Kingdom. Businesses with an annual salary bill of over £3 million will be charged 0·5% tax on that. It will hit many businesses in Northern Ireland and right across the UK, so I am not a fan of it; I think it is a very bad example of Government taxing on an issue where the policy responsibility resides with the devolved Administrations, including ours. The Finance Minister and I are both on record as saying that this will be of no benefit, in a monetary sense, to Northern Ireland.”
“I am happy to go back and look in Hansard at what I said in response to a motion proposed by him and Mr Aiken a few weeks ago. I accept that there is a price differential: I am not arguing that large and very large businesses in Northern Ireland are paying more than the EU median. However, when you take on pence per kWH, I worked out that there was about a 30% difference. That is still a significant difference — I do not dispute that — but there is no argument over substance. There is not even an argument, it is an issue of figure work rather than one of substance about the policy. The Member will know that the powers I have as Minister to improve affordability are limited, but rest assured that I will do everything I can to keep the price of electricity as low as possible for all consumers in Northern Ireland.”