Simon Hamilton
Strangford · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“I have emphasised to the Member and the House before, that, whilst I accept that those are not good enough — that is why we have been developing the plan — there are alternative technologies in place that can present opportunities for those who just cannot get acceptable speeds.”
“I thank the Member for his intervention. There are some initiatives that I believe will help and act as a driver to improve broadband access. One such intervention is the broadband universal service obligation (USO), which is being taken forward by Her Majesty's Government.”
“I thank the Member for his question. However, he is conflating two issues. I wrote to his party leader, and indeed to all Assembly party leaders, before making the announcement that I did last week about wanting to publish the details of the businesses in receipt of the non-domestic RHI scheme. It was my intention to do that tomorrow.”
“<BR /> <BR />The Chancellor, in his autumn statement, made some more funding available for telecommunications, and my Department is studying that and seeking to avail itself of that to the fullest possible extent.”
“In addition, my Department is managing a contract for the delivery of the superfast rollout programme, which, by 31 December, will provide access to superfast broadband with speeds of at least 24 megabits per second to a further 38,000 premises, both business and residential, across Northern Ireland, including in the Newry and Armagh cons…”
“I signalled the intention to do this a few weeks ago. The Member and the House will know that inspections of all installations would have taken place over the 20-year lifetime of the RHI scheme.”
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“At present, because we do not have statutory authority, the use of patient-identifiable information for any purpose other than direct care is predicated on the organisation’s ability to satisfy the public interest test. Deciding what is or is not in the public interest is open to interpretation, and that creates a significant risk for patients, the health and social care (HSC) organisations that hold the information and those who are using the information. The ambiguity about what constitutes public interest means that decisions may be more subjective and prone to legal challenge. Additionally, organisations may simply decide not to pursue that option in the absence of a robust framework, and, as such, the associated potential benefits that were outlined earlier may not be realised.”
“At present, patient-identifiable information may already be used for purposes other than direct care as long as the requirements that are set out in the Human Rights Act 1998, the Data Protection Act 1998 and the common-law duty of confidentiality are met. The requirements of the Human Rights Act and Data Protection Act are clearly defined. However, aspects of the common-law duty of confidentiality are less clear, and that can present a challenge. <BR /> <BR />Under the common-law duty of confidentiality, where consent has not been given, personal information may only be shared if there is a statutory basis for doing so or if disclosure is deemed to be in the public interest.”
“There are, however, limited instances in which access to information that identifies individuals is needed to secure the required outcome and obtaining their consent is not possible or practicable.”
“Every individual in Northern Ireland will use the services provided by the health and social care sector at some point in their life. In doing so, we provide information about ourselves, in confidence, to be used by health and social care professionals for our direct, personal care. However, this information is also valuable in other ways. It can help to understand the health and social care needs of everyone and the quality of care and treatment provided. It can also assist research by supporting studies that identify patterns in diseases, responses to different treatments and the effectiveness of different services. Currently, information can be used for such purposes if consent has been given or the information is anonymised.”
“That is always recorded at the start of a summit, and, indeed, comment was passed publicly in the press conference afterwards that all the Administrations very much welcome the opportunity, whether formally or — to use Mr Lunn's phrase "in the margins" — to have conversations with each other. I accept that that has been slow to grow in importance, but it is of growing importance. <BR /> <BR />I think that the Member overstates his case. I think, having attended some North/South Ministerial Council meetings in plenary and sectoral session, that he has a habit of overstating the work of that institution. He is right that there are lots of meetings of the North/South Ministerial Council in its various formats, but not a lot of output from it.”
“I would like to see the British-Irish Council do more. My experience of working in the environs of the Council proved that there is a lot to be learnt across its member Administrations. I would have thought that the Member might want to welcome and acknowledge that, but, of course, it is not his habit to do so. <BR /> <BR />I think that it is right that, periodically, the work of the BIC is refreshed, and the Member should welcome the fact that that is being acknowledged across the several member Administrations. Collectively, they acknowledge its importance.”
“I have long supported the various strategies that are in place between the Department for Employment and Learning, working in conjunction with the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Investment, to create employment opportunities, and I want that to continue. <BR /> <BR />One of the worst impacts of the downturn has been the denial of opportunities to many young people, not just in Northern Ireland but right across the British Isles and further afield. The different strategies and policies that are pursued in member Administrations can be shared, learned from and adopted, if necessary and appropriate, in our own jurisdiction and elsewhere.”
“This is the second British-Irish Council summit that I have attended in succession, and youth unemployment was discussed in more detail at the previous one. It was raised during the broad economic discussion that member Administrations had at the commencement of the more recent summit in Dublin Castle. <BR /> <BR />Work in this area is ongoing between Administrations. Like unemployment, economic growth and the other updates that were provided, we are seeing improvements in this area, and we are seeing improvements in our youth unemployment figures in Northern Ireland. We are by no means in a position whereby we should be resting on our laurels with the progress that has been made.”
“It has been considered between the Executive and the Irish Government, along with the impact that the border might have on any minimum unit pricing on one side of the border or both. To that end, research has been jointly commissioned by the Irish Government and the Northern Ireland Executive, and I anticipate that the outcome of that will be published in the not too distant future.”
“The focus of the summit was on the misuse of substances, particularly the misuse of alcohol, and there was an exchange of information and experience across member Administrations. There was a particular interest in the issue, as it had been raised initially by the Scottish Government, who are, at this minute, entangled in a court case in Europe on the legality of moving forward with minimum unit pricing. I was one Minister amongst several who expressed a keen interest in the outcome of that case, and we will continue to observe it as it moves through the European Court processes, with an expected conclusion or at least an indication of direction by the autumn of this year.”
“<BR /> <BR />I reiterate that I welcome the progress that the Prime Minister has made to date. I think that many across Northern Ireland, the United Kingdom and Europe will be welcoming the fact that the Prime Minister is bringing a focus to the issue and to the long outstanding and much-needed reform of the European Union. I think that we would do well to wish him well in the negotiations that he has commenced.”
“A straw poll of the various views of Administrations was not taken at the summit, but certainly, on the basis of listening to those who expressed any opinion on the European Union and the referendum that will take place next year in the United Kingdom, concern was expressed by the First Minister of Scotland and the First Minister of Wales, in particular. It is also fair to say that some of the smaller Administrations expressed concern. The Isle of Man, in particular, expressed concerns because of the nature of its relationship with the European Union. So, yes, concerns were expressed, as you would expect them to be expressed, for national interest reasons and for party political reasons by other member Administrations and their heads of delegation.”
“Again, it is a very good example of where policy decisions taken in one member Administration of the BIC can have an experience and learning that can be used by others and taken forward as policy in other member Administrations.”
“I thank the Member for her question. These so-called legal highs, or new psychoactive substances, as they are better referred to, have caused concern across the British Isles. The Irish Government have moved to ban and outlaw new psychoactive substances. Learning in that area can be useful when it is shared across BIC member Administrations. The Home Office Minister Mike Penning, who was at the summit, mentioned the fact that legislation is proceeding through the Houses of Parliament to ban new psychoactive substances. That is something that we warmly welcome; it is something that we have been pushing for in Northern Ireland for some time. In fact, it was the subject of a motion and debate in the House that was brought forward by our colleague Alex Easton, a number of weeks ago. So, it is good to see that that progress is being made.”
“I cannot comment on what was done in the margins that various people were drawing before, during or after the summit.”
“I am not always sure whether you are allowed to talk openly about what happens in the margins. I could not talk about everybody's margins; I could talk only about the margins that I was in. There was no specific, formal discussion around welfare reform on the agenda. Obviously, as you might expect, it was raised, particularly by the First Minister, in the context of the overall need to have faithful and full implementation of the Stormont House Agreement, the impact that it was having upon the Northern Ireland Executive and the instability that it was creating in the institutions. Beyond that, there was no formal discussion. Whilst I think I can recall comment made by the First Minister of Scotland and others about welfare reform in the broad sense, no specific comment about Northern Ireland was made in the formal summit.”
“At this stage — the early stage — of those discussions and negotiations that the Prime Minister is engaged in, I think we should be wishing him luck and hoping that he gets a successful and fruitful result for the United Kingdom.”
“The Foreign Secretary raised the issue of the referendum in the context of the economic discussion that had taken place at the summit. I do not recall him specifically talking about the impact on other devolved Administrations in the United Kingdom. A range of views was expressed, although he did not need to; other First Ministers and Chief Ministers ensured that their concerns were raised. For his part, our First Minister welcomed the fact that the Prime Minister was pursuing renegotiation. That is something we have long supported. I welcome the fact that the Prime Minister is endeavouring to renegotiate the UK's relationship with the European Union. I think his call for reform of the European Union will find common cause, not across just the United Kingdom, but the European Union.”
“As I said in my update, there was a brief discussion among member Administrations about reviewing the work of the work streams to update the next summit, which will be held in London in November and which will discuss progress on those work streams. That will help to inform future work undertaken by those work streams, whether some of them can be pared back or whether new ones can be put in their place. That will obviously have an impact on the future work of the summit.”
“We are so economically linked to and interdependent on one another that, when we get good economic news in the Republic of Ireland, Scotland, England or in other Administrations, that is ultimately good news for Northern Ireland too.”
“That is not to say that Northern Ireland's unemployment situation is perfect by any means, but it is certainly considerably lower than that of the host member Administration, the Republic of Ireland, where unemployment has fallen from a high of around 15% to now just below 10%. Northern Ireland is at 6·1%, which is a little above the UK average but certainly a lot better than the rate in the Irish Republic. We should be immensely proud that our claimant count has been down for 28 months. It is one indicator among many that things are starting to improve in Northern Ireland and right across the British Isles. <BR /> <BR />The fact that all Administrations across the British Isles were reporting economic growth, falling unemployment and general optimism and confidence across the economy can only be a good thing for Northern Ireland.”
“At the commencement of the summit, some time was devoted to a discussion among all member Administrations about the state of their respective economies. I noted from the previous BIC summit, before the turn of the year, in the Isle of Man, that there had been further improvement in economic outlook across all member Administrations. We cannot all boast as good an economic outlook and performance as that of the Isle of Man, which reported having over 30 years of unbroken economic growth and an unemployment rate of about 1·5%. That is something to which we would all aspire and try to work towards. <BR /> <BR />There was general optimism across member Administrations about the state of the economy. It struck me that Northern Ireland was performing a little better than some member Administrations in the area of unemployment.”
“I know from my Department that there was a focus at the summit on the misuse of alcohol and substances and that work was shared at the summit and across the work stream that can be of benefit to Northern Ireland. We put in time and resources, but we get the benefit of sharing our understanding.”
“The Member is aware, I imagine, from his chairmanship of the OFMDFM Committee, that the overall cost of the secretariat as a whole to Northern Ireland is quite modest. The fees that we are paying to keep the secretariat going are a little over £10,000 a year, but that obviously does not take into account costs for in-kind work done by officials. <BR /> <BR />While there will be a cost and time will be spent and, perhaps, officials will be taken away from the day-to-day core business in their Departments, it is work of mutual interest, and there is benefit for Northern Ireland in working collaboratively with officials from other Administrations.”
“I do not know the origins, specifically, of why Northern Ireland has responsibility for three of the work streams out of quite a number. I am looking at Mr Attwood across the Chamber. I am not sure whether he was Minister for Social Development at the time that the housing sector work stream was started. If he was not, it was his predecessor who was in post. I think that work stream was moved forward for inclusion specifically at the request of the Northern Ireland Executive. It was not one of the original work streams; it was added at that stage. Each of those work streams is tailored to areas where there is particular interest from the lead member Administration. I can certainly return to this area and ensure that officials get back to the Member about any cost estimate for the time taken by our officials in taking forward work.”
“<BR /> <BR />The Council received an update on the work that had taken place across each of the 12 sectors since the last summit in November 2014. The Council looked forward to a number of ministerial meetings, at work-sector level, to be held later this year. The Council also reviewed the latest youth employment statistics across the Administrations and welcomed the further progress being made in that important area. The Council noted the secretariat's end-year report against its business plan and welcomed the publication of the BIC annual report 2014. Finally, the Council noted that the next BIC summit will be hosted by the UK Government in London in November 2015.”
“<BR /> <BR />All member Administrations reaffirmed their commitment to the British-Irish Council and to its key principle of facilitating the development of mutually beneficial relationships between these islands. They recognised the many positive achievements of the BIC to date and agreed that it was timely to update the working of the British-Irish Council to ensure that it best reflects shared priorities for the member Administrations and delivers for citizens across the islands. They requested that officials, working closely with the secretariat, review the work sector's activities and report back on progress to the next summit in November 2015, as well as review the working of the Council in general.”
“In response, the Council had a detailed discussion on the significant harm being caused by alcohol to individuals, families and society. The Council agreed that continuing action is required across member Administrations to protect the health and well-being of the wider public — especially children — from alcohol misuse. The Council recognised the need for policies that foster protective environments for families and young people and to implement strategies that target high-risk groups. There was an exchange of views and information on how member Administrations are handling issues such as marketing and advertising, minimum pricing and licensing reform.”
“Each member Administration outlined their latest economic indicators and the strategies that they are putting in place to promote growth and address unemployment. Overall, a common theme emerged of a continuing improving economic situation in all member Administrations, with a recognition of the interdependence and links between our economies. Each Administration also noted the decision of the UK Government to hold a referendum on membership of the European Union and the potential implications of the outcome for their economies. <BR /> <BR />The Irish Government presented a collaborative paper, on behalf of the misuse of substances work sector, on the misuse of alcohol, focusing on the economic and social implications of alcohol abuse and the various measures planned to tackle the problem of excessive alcohol consumption.”
“The Welsh Government were led by the First Minister, Rt Hon Carwyn Jones AM. The Isle of Man Government were led by the Chief Minister, the honourable Allan Bell MHK. The Government of Jersey were led by the Chief Minister, Senator Ian Gorst. The Government of Guernsey were led by the Chief Minister, Deputy Jonathan Le Tocq. <BR /> <BR />The twice yearly summits continue to provide an opportunity for the British-Irish Council to play a unique and important role in furthering, promoting and developing links between its member Administrations through positive, practical relationships, and in providing a forum for consultation and exchange of information on matters of mutual interest. <BR /> <BR />As is now customary at each summit, the Council discussed the current economic situation.”
“In accordance with the requirements of the Northern Ireland Act 1998, I wish to make the following statement on the twenty-fourth summit meeting of the British-Irish Council, which took place in Dublin Castle on 19 June. The First Minister, the deputy First Minister and I attended the summit, and the First Minister and the deputy First Minister have agreed that I make this statement on their behalf. <BR /> <BR />The Irish Government hosted the summit, and the heads of delegations were welcomed by the Taoiseach, Enda Kenny TD. The United Kingdom Government were led by the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, the Rt Hon Philip Hammond MP. The Scottish Government were led by the First Minister, the Rt Hon Nicola Sturgeon MSP.”
“The Bill sums up what I want to see happening right across the health and social care sector, which is reform, transformation and innovation. It represents a once-in-a-generation opportunity to reform this important area of law. It is about transforming how decisions are made when people are unable to make them for themselves in respect of their care, treatment or money. It has the potential to put us ahead of many other jurisdictions across the world by adopting an innovative approach. <BR /> <BR />It is clear that the interest that the Bill has generated outside the Chamber has been reflected in the debate today. I would like to wish the Committee well as it begins its crucial scrutiny of the Bill.”
“I will endeavour to correspond with anybody who has raised points that I have not addressed, but I think that most of the broad themes that characterised most Members' contributions have been touched on. The debate has been a valuable opportunity for me to hear at first hand the views of Members on what is novel and incredibly important legislation.”
“On the broader point about differences between the legislation that is in place and active in England and our proposed legislation, I understand that the Committee has requested a comparison of the two, and that will obviously be provided in due course. On the particular issue of lasting powers of attorney and people moving to other jurisdictions, I think it is a pertinent and relevant issue that Mr McGlone has raised. I am happy to work with the Committee during its scrutiny to tease out how that might be addressed. <BR /> <BR />I will move to conclude now. I appreciate, as I said, that there may be some points that Members have raised that I have not touched on directly.”
“<BR /> <BR />I have already addressed some of the points that Mr Easton raised, but he also asked a very pertinent question around how we could ensure that independent advocates were actually independent. The requirement for the advocate to be independent from the decision-maker is in the Bill. It is also reflected in the departmental guidance issued to trusts in 2012 on the commissioning of advocacy services in health and social care. Further guidance will be provided in the code of practice and in regulations. <BR /> <BR />Mr McGlone raised some concerns he has with differences in the Mental Capacity Act in GB and what would happen with people moving between jurisdictions.”
“Mrs Dobson also raised an issue around the code of practice. There will be a general code that will cover main principles. An early draft of that is under way, as I said. We are also looking at developing some settings-based codes as well as a general code, for example for acute staff and domiciliary care staff, and will pick out the more salient points for those workers from the general code of practice. <BR /> <BR />On the issue of advance decisions, which the Member raised, the Bill makes it clear that decision-makers cannot give a person treatment if it conflicts with a valid advance decision made by that person. If they do so, they will not have legal cover under the Bill. I can assure the Member and, indeed, the whole House that the code of practice will elaborate on what is a valid advance decision.”
“I will just caution her that arguing about prevarication and delay in bringing the Bill forward will elicit the question in response of who the Health Minister was between 2007 and 2010, when, of course, key decisions were taken that resulted in delay. Many would argue, me included, that it was positive delay, but decisions were taken around the 2009-2010 period to fuse mental capacity and mental health legislation into a single Bill. That obviously added to complexity in the Bill and to time. <BR /> <BR />I am glad that Mrs Dobson has arrived in the Chamber to hear further points. She also made an interesting point, following on somewhat from Mr Ross's point, about the introduction of far-reaching, significant legislation late on in an Assembly mandate. Those are comments that, particularly for her, are worth reflecting on.”
“Early work is under way in developing that. Current thinking is that training will be delivered on what would be a stepped or layered basis, so, for example, everyone in the health and social care system, whether they be porters or receptionists, would receive general awareness training. Going up a level, staff in acute wards would receive intermediate training, and social workers, consultant psychiatrists or psychologists would receive very detailed training. There is obviously, therefore, a need to deliver training of one degree or another to 65,000-plus people across HSC and to do so with no disruption in service. That will clearly present some challenges. <BR /> <BR />Mrs Dobson, speaking on behalf of the Ulster Unionist Party, excoriated me for prevarication and asked why the Bill had taken so long to get to where it is.”
“Of the 76 actions in the action plan, which covers the period from 2012 to 2015, all but a dozen are well on track, and the remaining actions will be completed, albeit with some delay. Funding is always an issue in health, as I am starting to learn and discover very quickly, but, in my view, there has been strong implementation of the plan. An evaluation of the plan and its outcomes is under way, and it has been extended for a year to allow for that. <BR /> <BR />Finally on Mr McKinney's points, he asked about training — I think Mr Easton also asked about training issues — in the health and social care sector, the cost of training and cost savings. Approximately £27 million in year 1 — that is at the higher end of the estimated costs for the health sector — is assigned to training people across the health and social care system.”
“It may be better to take a bit more time to get it right in the longer term, even though that might frustrate some people. <BR /> <BR />Mr McKinney raised the need to support older people in making decisions. A key principle underscoring the Bill is giving people all the practical help and support we can to enable them to make their own decisions. That includes providing information about the decision and explaining the options in good time and in the right environment. Whilst I understand the points that Mr McKinney raised, it is worth pointing out that our Bill goes much further in that area than the English Mental Capacity Act. <BR /> <BR />Mr McKinney also raised funding of the Bamford action plan.”
“<BR /> <BR />I do not like to be perceived as warning Committees about what work they should do, but there is perhaps a need for caution. I heard some Members talk about wanting to address the issue by tabling amendments at Committee Stage. It is, of course, the right of the Committee to do so if it can agree to it. As I said, I look forward to that scrutiny, which I anticipate will enhance the Bill, but, in the context of the lack of a considered and shared view, I caution the Committee about seeking to be too radical. There is always a risk. There is a reason why there is that old saying about legislating in haste and repenting at leisure. I caution against going too hard, too far and too fast by making significant changes to issues that affect children and perhaps not getting it right at this time.”
“Unlike what we have done with the Mental Capacity Bill, I suppose, I also understand that there is no consensus across stakeholders or government about what changes are actually required, so I do not believe that it would be simple or straightforward work to undertake anyway. Even if we had the resources to do it, it is possible that there would be no definitive or clear outcome on where we would head from that point. We need to be mindful of those points before we undertake such serious work. Even though the Bill does not propose to do what Members think it should, it is not the case that safeguarding children is any less a priority than it was before. The fact that we are seeking to amend the Children Order and the Mental Health Order by putting in other duties shows that the issue is taken very seriously by the Department.”
“Whilst I understand the points that Members made, it is not a matter of us doing nothing for children; there will be amendments proposed and changes made that will enhance the protection of and care for children. <BR /> <BR />Rosaleen McCorley asked why we were not doing a review of the Children's Order and having a separate project on children. I understand the point and why she was making it. The response I would offer is as much practical as anything else: there are simply no available resources and arguably no time to undertake such a wide-ranging project at this moment.”
“There is already a difference between the systems for adults and children. <BR /> <BR />The Children Order has special protections and reflects the important role that parents play in decision-making relating to their children, which you would expect to be the case. The Mental Health Order has further protections for children who need compulsory assessment or treatment. The Bill would amend and enhance those protections. For example, the new best-interests principle will be a primary consideration, and the views of the child will be taken into account. There will also be an amendment to have an independent advocate to support children who are admitted to hospital voluntarily or under the Mental Health Order, as well as a new duty to provide age-appropriate accommodation.”
“I am keen to look at what implications there might be and what confusion having two systems might lead to. I am certainly happy to look at the issue in the context of the Committee's scrutiny of it, what evidence it receives and whether there are perhaps other options that we can consider. <BR /> <BR />Mr Ross and virtually everybody who spoke raised the issue of a perceived gap in protections for those who are under 16. If I may, I will take some time on this point, because it was the issue that was most talked about and that most exercised Members in their contributions. It is worth beginning by pointing out that there is and will remain legislation in place in the Mental Health Order and the Children Order, but there is no provision for adults who lack mental capacity.”
“I would be open to doing that in circumstances where we were not successful in securing appropriate resources through a comprehensive spending review and subsequent Budgets. <BR /> <BR />Mr Ross and other Members, including Mr McGlone, raised the issue of lasting power of attorney and the change away from the current situation. He made the point that this may be costly and that, because it is costly, it may put people off getting a lasting power of attorney. I can understand the point that is made. I think that it is accepted and acknowledged that there is a difference between what is proposed through lasting powers of attorney versus enduring powers of attorney and that lasting powers of attorney cover care, treatment and personal welfare as well as property and affairs. Mr Ross and others floated the idea of perhaps having two systems.”
“I expect that, in pushing back, that sees a significant reduction in the cost of implementing the legislation. <BR /> <BR />It is perhaps a most opportune time for the Minister of Finance to walk into the Chamber, when we are talking about costs. To paint a slightly negative scenario, if, for example, I am not successful in the comprehensive spending review in getting the requisite funds to implement the legislation, there is always the option under the legislation to phase or delay commencement of various stages. There may be some elements that we want to bring forward early to ensure that we adhere to certain international standards, but there may be others that are obviously desirable and things that we want to do that we may, because of cost implications, have to delay or phase the introduction of.”
“From dealing with the many budget challenges that I face as Minister of Health, I understand the concerns that others have, and I welcome their concern about anything that would have significant cost pressures on what is already an under-pressure budget. Mr Ross quoted figures of a year 1 implementation cost of around £70 million to £118 million and, thereafter, ongoing costs ranging from £64 million to £92 million. It is probably worth putting it on the record that those are estimates of costs as opposed to definitive costs, and, as you would expect, there is a pushing back, if I can use that phrase, on the trusts, which have provided many of those figures, to ensure that those figures and estimates of costs are as robust as possible.”
“I take the point, having been a Chair of a Committee towards the end of the last mandate and having seen a raft of legislation coming forward. I am now looking at the Chair of my scrutiny Committee opposite, and she will know that there is a significant amount of legislation coming through from our Department. It seems to be an unfortunate habit that all Departments get into in this place, but there is still time to scrutinise it, even though it is extensive legislation. Of course, as the Member would expect, I have every faith in the Chair to steward the Committee in the work that it will do over the coming months. <BR /> <BR />Mr Ross raised, as many Members did, an issue around the cost of implementation of the legislation if and when it passes.”
“It has perhaps taken longer than we would have hoped. A lot of effort has been made by a series of officials and others down through the years, and there has been engagement with people outside the system too. If I can offer an explanation, it is a novel approach, there have been extensive consultations down through the years and there have been extensive engagements with stakeholders that, I believe, have served to improve the legislation that is before us. That probably shows that it was worthwhile perhaps to take a little more time.”