Basil McCrea
Lagan Valley · Ulster Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“I carried on that work on the all-party group on science and technology, and, when I am gone from this place, I hope that those who are still here will take up the challenge of science and technology, because that is where the jobs are and that is where the future is.”
“I rise for the last time to address the Assembly. I thank the people of Lagan Valley for the privilege of representing them over the past nine years. It seems like only yesterday that I first got here, awestruck by the names on the doors of people that I had seen only on television, and, yet, here we are.”
“— what matters is to have the courage to go on. I will go on. I will leave this place with my head high, with my colours flying, with my dignity intact and with all conviction about what is good for Northern Ireland. In conclusion, two roads diverged in the woods, and I took the road less travelled. That has made all the difference.”
“Despite the heckling from the man in front of me, I shall ask a question of the Minister in two parts. First, would the Minister care to tell us what was his personal favourite of the many events at the Northern Ireland Science Festival?”
“I am grateful to the Member for the explanation, and I have no doubt that her efforts to draft the amendment were well-intentioned. Maybe she can help me on this, if it has come up in the discussions.”
“Actually, when I read it, I understood it to be the other way round. However, I am happy that it is a more general stance and is not limited to single acts. <BR /> <BR />As regards amendment No 2, I approached the concept in a sympathetic manner, but I am not convinced that we can properly define an imbalance of power.”
The complete record
Every one of 747 lines we hold for Basil McCrea, in date order, each linked to its source. Free to read, in full, without an account. Page 12 of 15.
“<BR /> <BR />We talked about welfare reform. She is not here now, but I saw Dolores Kelly shake her head at me a couple of times as I entered the Lobbies along with what I took to be the Government. That was because the only way to deal with these difficult issues is through a collective decision. It is too easy for people to snipe, take advantage and go off and say, "I see a little bit of an opportunity here". That will not work in a Budget. This is something that we are going to have to work out whether we like it or not, and it requires a united political response. <BR /> <BR />I then come to why we need to do that. As the Minister of Finance and Personnel will know, I raised with him a number of times in this debate the fate of DCAL. I heard what he had to say.”
“The dilemma is that we will end up with a health service that is less well-funded and provided for than in other parts of the United Kingdom. This is a challenge that will come back to this House, and we will have to deal with it. Not only is that Budget issue not sustainable but we are going to have to tackle some really tough issues. When we talked about the Donaldson report, I think we missed some key points. We have to find some way to make the tough political choices that need to be made. <BR /> <BR />No Minister or Member of this Assembly will welcome the closure of any hospital or facility in his or her constituency. That is obvious, yet when you look at the figures, I heard the Minister of Health say that, if he had to start somewhere, he would not be starting here because we simply have too many facilities.”
“I am just sort of here at 11.00 at night and I put some things down because I think that, in the future, we will have to deal with them. The issue that I see looming large in front of us is the health budget. People have said time and again that the demand on our health services is rising at 6% per annum because, fortunately, we have an ageing population. With an ageing population, however, come issues like dementia, Alzheimer's, broken hips, different drugs and what we do for care. <BR /> <BR />Those factors affect all of us, yet the problem is that the available budget is increasing at 1%. Even those with only a tenuous grasp of economics can understand that, over a period of years, we are going to lose money and not be able to fund that gap in health.”
“Mr Deputy Speaker, you are, as ever, erudite and to the point. I shall return to the point that we were discussing, which was that one of the really difficult issues that I have heard in the debate, not just tonight but earlier, is economic illiteracy. One of the real problems that I hear when people talk about things that they would do when in office, or money that they would spend, is that they do not seem to be able to cost it properly. I am actually a little disappointed that Mr Agnew is not speaking before me, because his leader was fairly to the point on the radio and TV on that. <BR /> <BR />There are some important points that we will have to deal with, and I say that knowing that I have no influence or power in this place.”
“I am just checking whether there is anything that you know, Mr McNarry —”
“But do not let that detract from the eloquence of what was put forward. <BR /> <BR />There are some important things that I would like to say. I do not know whether they would count as intelligent but I will say them anyway. Before I do that, I just want to check something. Mrs Foster has moved to the Back Benches.”
“Just when I thought there was no point in me being here, I have to confess that it has been a night of surprises. The previous contributor, Mr McNarry, has delivered a wonderful, wonderful, wonderful speech. I know that I am not in the same league as the Minister of Enterprise, Trade and Investment or, indeed, the First Minister, but if there is anybody from the media listening or milling around, I think that they should listen to that speech because it was really well crafted. It had wonderful words of poetry, dulcet tones and honeyed words. A lot of effort was put into that speech. I am actually a little disappointed that we only got to hear it at this hour. Of course, despite the way in which it was delivered, quite a lot of it was rubbish.”
“Can the Minister explain why she argued for NI Screen to get an extra £800,000 but did not make the argument for the Arts Council or Sport NI, both of which have reported that this will have detrimental effect on rural provision?”
“<BR /> <BR />At this stage, it is not for me to rehash or regurgitate the very fine arguments that have been put forward but merely to say that this place would get a lot more support if there were a positive response to what is felt in the community, which is that this is nonsensical and is not the right way to go about it. Common sense would tell you to do something else. Perhaps the Minister will explain why it is that we have to do something that, to the average member of the community, does not look like the right decision, and what are the arguments that we should make to them. My preference, of course, is that he responds in a more positive way to Mrs Hale's proposition.”
“What I see happening — maybe this is what the Minister is going to explain — is that a cap is definitely used on numbers to try to manage the overall portfolio. There is no question about that. We have to look at that and understand that an entire estate has to be done, but, having taken that on board, there are certain areas in which we will gain greatly by using a bit of common sense. <BR /> <BR />My second question for the Minister — no doubt he will develop this in his answer — is that there is a danger for him in that, if you make exceptions in one case, you will have to make exceptions throughout Northern Ireland. Maybe that is part of the issue.”
“Other primary schools were built, such as Ballycarrickmaddy Primary School, where it was expected that more housing would be built. Planning permission was granted, but no building happened for reasons that we all understand, and that puts a bit of pressure on. <BR /> <BR />That does not seem to be the case in Dromore. It has been argued by Mrs Hale and others that there genuinely seems to be a shortage of spaces and that there is an integrity about the place, that Dromore is an entity that thrives and succeeds, and there is a sense of community about it. You could, therefore, look at this in the round and say that, rather than be reactive, we should take a stand and plan for the future.”
“You caught me slightly by surprise, Mr Deputy Speaker. I thought that I was last to speak; I am usually last but Mr Kinahan will, no doubt, come back in. <BR /> <BR />There are a couple of points to make here. As Mr Lunn said, when Mrs Hale has time to put all the facts and figures out, all you can do is say that those are the facts and figures. My purpose for being here at this late hour is simply to add support for somebody who is trying to do something in the constituency. I am not in any way trying to take anything away from the excellent campaign that Mrs Hale has been running. <BR /> <BR />Mr Craig referred to the fact that the figures, the birth rate and different things seemed to be running counter to experience. It will be interesting to hear from the Minister because I understand the issue.”
“I thank the Minister for giving way. I accept his point. I understand that it is £10 million here and £10 million there and that we have to find cuts. All I felt that it was appropriate to do was to argue that, when you realise the draconian impact of this, you find that maybe these arguments have not been made elsewhere, so somebody should do it. I apologise if I have come forward with details. I understand that the Minister cannot be on top of every single line of the Budget, and I have taken on board what he said about perhaps needing to reframe the arguments in the context of the Executive's economic priorities, with the result that there might be a different way to go forward. Nevertheless, I still think that it is appropriate for me to stand up and say, "These are the impacts of this Budget. Do we really want to do this?"”
“I thank the Minister for giving way. I will not detain him too long. I would just like it on the record that income tax and VAT are likely to be bigger and more stable than corporation tax. You could argue that, in looking at it the round, there would be a balancing act involved. I will conclude by saying that the Minister is right to look at it before jumping straight into things. It is something to bear in mind. It is important that we understand where the volatility really lies.”
“I wonder whether we should take the argument from a different position. Maybe not now but at some stage, we have to look at the amount of revenue that Her Majesty's Government raise from the City of London and the contribution that it makes. There is also the polarisation of tax-paying corporations' headquarters in London. If you take it from that basis, it is impossible that we, as a peripheral region, can be self-sustaining. Frankly, this is what really makes me depressed when I hear arguments that are not based on sound economic fact. I want some way to be able to challenge the issue and get it sorted. Once the facts are established, you can decide your policy.”
“Equally, there is no point in people voting against it on principle when they have no other ideas. You will be pleased to hear that, at twenty minutes past five, when the media has yet to pay any attention and nobody is listening, I have, at least, said some things on the record, which, in the cold light of day when I am not associated with them, people may well take on board and say, "Do you know what? There is something that we should do. We need to find a way forward, and that needs consensus." That is the only way forward in this place. We cannot keep taking potshots at each other: we have to find a way to agree, and when we agree, we should be arguing for it, not making excuses.”
“I heard him talk at Question Time about how we might have an investment bank, how we might do more on energy and how we might use our financial transactions capital. All those are positive things, and I commend that, but we need a Budget that we all genuinely agree with. There is no point in people saying, "I disagree with all of this", and then saying, "I will vote for it".”
“On behalf of people from rural places and all those people who make their living from, take enjoyment from or participate in culture, arts and leisure, I ask you to think again. <BR /> <BR />I will conclude my general remarks, because the Minister told me previously that it would be unreasonable of me to expect him to be in command of the detail of everything for fear of him being a megalomaniac. I accept and understand that point. However, when you drill down into the detail and look at what is there — I do not think that any other Departments have been able to give the information — you get to the stage where you think, "I would not do that; that is not joined-up". There are some areas that I really am interested in. I hope to finish on a positive, and the Minister may well be talking about this.”
“I am not talking about high culture but about everything from marching bands to whatever. We ought to be investing in it, not cutting it. <BR /> <BR />I understand the financial reality that we face in that we have to make some attempt to reduce expenditure. We have to do that because of the area that we work in in the United Kingdom, but I am saying to you that the sums of money are so small for culture, arts and leisure in the monitoring rounds and suchlike. The Minister said on the record that he understands the benefit of legacy work, maintaining investment and so on. I would like us to look again. I am not in a position — you all know this — to bring forward amendments or to change anything. The only thing that I can do is tell you that these are the unintended consequences of the actions that we are taking.”
“I will finish on the issue of Disability Sports NI. DSNI directly impacts over 20,000 people with disabilities every year. The cuts in the Budget suggest that numbers of people who are part of the programme will be one third lower next year. People tell me that they have had a look at this from a section 75 point of view. This cannot be right; these people need our support. We have had debates in the Assembly, and there was complete agreement two years ago that we should support the work of DSNI. I ask: how do I make a case? How do I implore the Executive or whoever controls the purse strings in this arena? Culture, arts and leisure is not an add-on or bolt-on; it is the very basis of being Northern Irish; it is what makes us proud. It is about our culture and about celebrating what brings us together.”
“The athlete investment programme will face a reduction of £63,000 in training for our expert athletes. A survey of public attitudes found that 90% of people thought that NI teams should have international representation and that 90% of people supported public funding for our young athletes. As a result of the Budget, we will have to stop all funding for the 55 development athletes whom we have identified.”
“Both will be reduced, meaning that we are unlikely to see medals at international level. We will also take £138,000 out of performance sport, which is likely to have an impact on participation at the Commonwealth Youth Games in Samoa in 2015. Is that really what we want? When you do surveys of what people are proud of, you find that they are proud of our people in Northern Ireland competing on an international stage. We will take away £44,000, £12,000 of which is from the Giro cycling legacy. We invested in the Giro and now we will not follow it up. We will take away £15,000 from Women in Sport and £16,000 from Disability Sports NI, which will threaten the future of the organisation, according to Disability Sports. I have made my point on where we are making really modest cuts that will have profound effects.”
“We will take £75,000 out of performance coaching; the removal of the entire funding programme for performance coaching. How will we build our athletes of the future if we do not have coaches? We will take £57,000 out of club development performance. As for Activ8 for children in primary, post-primary and special education, for whom participation in sport is recommended by the Chief Medical Officer, we will take all that funding away as well. The loss will result in Sport NI having zero engagement with the education system. We know that this is not the right way to go forward. <BR /> <BR />We will also see the Sports Institute Northern Ireland seek a £180,000 reduction in high-performance service to athletes. We currently fund 200 athletes and 25 sports.”
“At least now we can see that its opposition to the Budget — unlike other parties, which is to its credit — was that it hinged on less than one quarter of 1% of the total Budget. I am telling you that it was £60 million. All that I am looking for is £10 million, just to keep our arts programme alive and to do what is right for things that unite Northern Ireland. <BR /> <BR />You get to the issue of what else we will cut: Sport NI. I hear everybody here talking about how great it is about our sports champions and when our boxers do well at the Commonwealth Games. We sing their praises and do all that. What will we do? We will take £23,000 from Tollymore. There will be a reduction in seasonal staff, the number of courses and weekend services — the most popular time.”
“All of that is supported by a complete and utter stopping of traditional marketing amounting to £184,000. Now, when everybody else is talking about millions and billions of pounds, I am talking about really small sums of money, which, if we were so minded to protect our core issues, we would be able to find. <BR /> <BR />I do not know who is making the argument for this. The Minister said previously that I should make the argument to the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure. That does not seem to be working, so I am making it to him and this House. I will point out that, when he was talking about the issue in the Budget debate on 27 January, he berated the Ulster Unionist Party.”
“We will see cuts that impact on DE and DEL, because it delivers key aspects of the curriculum. We will see cuts in areas that affect DSD, because National Museums NI works to deliver social-inclusion and community-based programmes. We will aim to save £859,000 in a reduction in pay bills through vacancy management. That means that we will leave posts open, we will not fill them and we will see a reduction in service. <BR /> <BR />What really disappoints me in all this is that the sums of money are so modest. The saving from the Ulster Museum is £43,000, yet you then go and close half of the folk museum. You get £16,000 for the Ulster Folk and Transport Museum and £15,000 for the Ulster American Folk Park in Omagh, which will actually see it cut for four months of the year.”
“I will look now to National Museums. This is what it means: we will reduce staff by 24 full-time positions with approximate salaries of £36,000 each. The voluntary reduction will cost £1·512 million. That is the cost this year. It is part of the £700 million that Mr Allister was talking about for a resource saving of only £400,000. We are going to strip away our assets in National Museums. We will see the complete closure of the folk gallery at the Ulster Folk and Transport Museum. We will see additional gallery closures in the Ulster Museum. There will be a reduction in outreach activity and special programmes for non-traditional people. We will see cuts in matters that are important to DETI, because National Museums produce three of the top tourist spots in Northern Ireland.”
“The Armagh Observatory and the Armagh Planetarium has to save £177,000. One of the few things that it can do is increase ticket prices by 10%, but then you will be into all sorts of issues around whether it is an internationally recognised scientific centre any longer. You will not get your children going to those places, yet it is part of the core curriculum.”
“Therefore, I ask those people who argue for rural proofing and rural inclusion and who talk all the time in the Culture, Arts and Leisure Committee about rural issues, where is your defence of trying to make sure that culture, arts and leisure are spread throughout our rural areas? <BR /> <BR />Where do the real cuts come from? Where are the real cuts in the Arts Council, which we were supposed to be supporting? A total of £1·154 million in direct grants will be cut, and some organisations are likely to cease operating. I know that we did not get the 15% cut — we got only 11·2% — but the previous survey said that we will lose over 500 people from our arts centres. <BR /> <BR />We then move on to some smaller things that people used to say were quite important to tourism, science and outreach here.”
“<BR /> <BR />The point that I made to the Minister in previous discussions is that poor old DCAL gets only £100 million, yet we are taking £10 million off it. It is a drop in the ocean, but wait until you see the effect that that will have. The Arts Council will save £120,000 by reducing salaries, by not replacing leavers or agency staff, by not recruiting students and by offering voluntary redundancy. That is to find £120,000. It will save £104,000 in administration. The impact of that will be a lack of regional spread, instead focusing only on Belfast and Derry.”
“Well, I did read to the bottom of it, and I see that the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure's entire focus apparently is on NI Screen. We have magically secured an increase from £1 million to £1·87 million. I am not against NI Screen. I think that it is a fantastic organisation, but I wonder why we have not tried to deal with some of the other issues. I will see whether I can get some detail here. When I listened to the Chair of the Committee, Nelson McCausland, go through the top-level view and heard him say that we have seen this reduction in this Department, and this amount of percentage decline, it all became a blur, but when you drill down a little bit further, you get to see the things that we are passing.”
“The information that I have in front of me comes from the departmental notes, and, in the draft Budget, there was to be a 10% reduction, which then became 8·2%. The issue is that all the arm's-length bodies, including those for the arts, are now facing an 11·2% reduction, not 7·1%. When I look at the detail that is being brought forward, I see an increase, but the only two organisations that got the benefit of that increase were the Department and NI Screen. I have the documents here, and I am reliably informed that nobody else has such a comprehensive amount of information. Apparently, this is what the Civil Service does to you. When you ask questions, it says, "Here, have a big file. Read it. You will not read to the bottom of it".”
“We will have tourism, but the Budget that we have here will cut the Ulster Museum, the Folk and Transport Museum and all sorts of things that we could do in tourism. We then say that we will give more money to DETI because it might do something useful on this. I am sure that the Minister would like something to attend to in this speech, so I refer him to the Budget debate on 27 January:”
“Where is the sense of economic and financial reality about where we are as 1·8 million people on the edge of western Europe? We need to trade and be part of other places. As someone who is happy to engage, I think that we need to have a proper Budget debate. <BR /> <BR />I will talk about DCAL now. I am on the Committee for Culture, Arts and Leisure, which is, I think, the smallest Committee. I think that I was put on that Committee because people thought that that was where I could do least damage. Let us just see what I can do on this. I believe that DCAL needs a champion. We need people to argue for culture, arts and leisure. It is not the Department for fun. It is not some add-on that we have because other people have it somewhere else. <BR /> <BR />I listened to Mr Kinahan's finishing words on tourism.”
“It will not be on the news, as Mr McCrea rightly points out. The press will have gone home or to the coffee shop. Nobody will care, yet there are really important things that people want to say. <BR /> <BR />I will make a few general points to the representatives of Sinn Féin. I absolutely acknowledge your mandate. You have every right to say what you want to say, but, having listened to you, I have to tell you this: what I, as someone considered to be different, hear when you make a speech is that you bring up arguments at one end of the spectrum and then, at the very last minute, say that you support the Budget. I think that Michaela Boyle was saying, "We can do it. Yes, we can". It was like Bob the Builder. Where is this sense of optimism coming from?”
“I am just trying to tone myself down to get to the same level, Mr Deputy Speaker. I commend you, and I will commend the Minister, because you have had to sit and listen to every single word in the debate. There are a few things that I want to say, and, at 5.00 pm, it probably does not matter because nobody will be listening.”
“As I rise in this place, it is like death warmed up. It has gone to sleep. The energy has dissipated, and there is paralysis. People —”
“Does the First Minister consider corporation tax to be a volatile tax? If so, what safeguards will be put in place to make sure that, if there are large annual swings, we will be able to meet our commitments?”
“That is what will drive their lives and our society forward. On that basis, I fully support a five-party coalition tackling the issue. We will then review it properly and see how it is working.”
“He said that he had talked to people and heard their pain and that we have higher levels of deprivation, higher levels of economic inactivity, higher levels of fuel poverty, higher levels of ill health, lower wages and less availability of suitable housing. Against that background, we have to tackle welfare reform in a different way. Incidentally, that is also why I am not convinced of the argument on corporation tax. I think that the money would be better spent on skills and on looking after those people. <BR /> <BR />I understand that we must reform welfare because of the financial constraints that are placed on us by Westminster. That is why we have a five-party agreement, and that is why I support reform. However, we should also be reforming welfare because we want to give our citizens dignity, opportunity and ambition.”
“The Government are leaving the voluntary sector to deal with the impact of only 20% to 25% of vulnerable people getting back into work. That is not the right way. The impact on poorly funded advisory bodies, such as Citizens Advice, is significant and a drain on their service. When we look to review the process, we need to find a way of asking whether sanctions contribute positively, and, if not, whether there is another way. <BR /> <BR />I will conclude by acknowledging what was said in other contributions. Mr Maskey, who is not in his place, said — I saw it on one of the monitors — that Northern Ireland is different.”
“Those work programme providers have to find people jobs and give them the skills to take those jobs. Professor Dwyer, a professor of social policy at the University of York, said that jobcentre advisers are focusing too much on sanctions rather than providing support on the jobs side. That is not the right way forward. <BR /> <BR />People say that this will save money. Actually, in government terms, the sums of money are fairly paltry. In the UK, £275 million was withheld in sanctions from October 2012 until January 2015. If you translate that to Northern Ireland, you are talking about £1 million to £1·5 million a year. I fear that, if we go down the route of sanctions, what is happening over in Great Britain will happen here.”
“I understand that, Mr Deputy Speaker. I can only presume that they did not travel as far as you, or no doubt you would have dealt with it. <BR /> <BR />I am not convinced that sanctions are the right way forward. I do not like the word "sanction". I do not think that it is appropriate. If you take money off people, all that happens is that they disappear off the radar. That is not what this should be about. We need to resource universal credit properly and put more investment into looking after people. <BR /> <BR />I will make a number of points that support that stance. In 2012-13, there was a 250% increase in sanctions on ESA claimants, according to Debbie Abrahams the Labour MP. Some 90% of those sanctions came from the work programme providers. That is not the right way in which to go forward.”
“I am quite pleased to hear mutterings in front of me, because I will stand my ground as a liberal in this place against anybody. Every single person who comes around here says, "What I'm trying to do is for the best." I do not care if it does not fit into your political rhetoric or your party-political broadcast or your electioneering. Let me tell you: the facts are the facts.”
“You cannot sit in a circle of dependency. I am really sorry if people think that I have somehow lost the run of myself.”
“I take issue with that. There is a mismatch between jobs in certain localities and the skills required, but there are plenty of opportunities. I rely, as the Member knows, on evidence. I rely on the fact that people say, "Look at all the vacancies." <BR /> <BR />There will be localised areas. I heard Mr McCann talking yesterday about the difficulties in his constituency, and I have no doubt that those difficulties exist in other areas. My understanding of the issue is that you resolve these things through personalised intervention to give people the confidence and skills to go out into the labour market. You need to give them the motivation and the ambition to say "We can go and do all of that."”
“The Member raises a point, but I am sure that the Minister of Enterprise, Trade and Investment would say, "The claimant count is falling; employment has never been better in the last two or three years." When I talk to people who look at the statistics, they say, "There are plenty of jobs out there, but there are not enough people with the right skills." I fully accept, if this is of any consolation to the Member, that one of the problems is that you cannot take people off benefits if you do not have some other place for them to get a job. They have to have the skills to do that, and the jobs have to be available. That is why I say you need the opportunity.”
“We will build your confidence up. We are going to do it." That is the way forward.”
“I am sorry that I did not make it clear earlier, but I did mention the example of Ingeus and the other tier-1 providers that are working on a one-to-one basis with people who are looking to get back into work. What I have seen in the past is a tendency to skim the problem. We have tried to do it in large numbers, and you have people going through employment for 13 weeks and then back out again. That did not work. The answer is one-to-one, specific, personalised training. That is expensive, but it is the long-term solution. <BR /> <BR />I draw Mr Humphrey's attention to what Glenda Jackson MP said in the Work and Pensions Select Committee. She highlighted that when she said that the individual is not their individual. <BR /> <BR />It is about getting a personal relationship with people to say, "We will find you work; you can do it.”
“I have been impressed by the way that he has engaged in this debate. It has taken a long time, and he has gone through points and tried to explain points of view. When you hear it, you have a different perception. His quote from the Joseph Rowntree Foundation's report was telling. That is the right way to go forward. That gives me confidence that the Minister is taking on board the various points raised, and, somewhere along the line, we will have to find a way to reach a compromise so that we can get legislation out. <BR /> <BR />At some stage, we will then need to review it. The report issue will come in the next group of amendments, and we will look at those, but we need to get something working now that is generally and broadly acceptable, see how it works and change it from there.”