Basil McCrea
Lagan Valley · Ulster Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“I carried on that work on the all-party group on science and technology, and, when I am gone from this place, I hope that those who are still here will take up the challenge of science and technology, because that is where the jobs are and that is where the future is.”
“I rise for the last time to address the Assembly. I thank the people of Lagan Valley for the privilege of representing them over the past nine years. It seems like only yesterday that I first got here, awestruck by the names on the doors of people that I had seen only on television, and, yet, here we are.”
“— what matters is to have the courage to go on. I will go on. I will leave this place with my head high, with my colours flying, with my dignity intact and with all conviction about what is good for Northern Ireland. In conclusion, two roads diverged in the woods, and I took the road less travelled. That has made all the difference.”
“Despite the heckling from the man in front of me, I shall ask a question of the Minister in two parts. First, would the Minister care to tell us what was his personal favourite of the many events at the Northern Ireland Science Festival?”
“I am grateful to the Member for the explanation, and I have no doubt that her efforts to draft the amendment were well-intentioned. Maybe she can help me on this, if it has come up in the discussions.”
“Actually, when I read it, I understood it to be the other way round. However, I am happy that it is a more general stance and is not limited to single acts. <BR /> <BR />As regards amendment No 2, I approached the concept in a sympathetic manner, but I am not convinced that we can properly define an imbalance of power.”
The complete record
Every one of 747 lines we hold for Basil McCrea, in date order, each linked to its source. Free to read, in full, without an account. Page 14 of 15.
“My point is that, if we are serious about letting local communities decide how they will develop, we have to give them the real powers to do it. The problem that I suspect we have at the moment is that we are not sure whether they have the competency to do it yet, and neither am I sure that they have the financial resources to make a meaningful contribution. <BR /> <BR />I said in all this that I am in favour of letting local people make local decisions. I look forward to seeing how the Bill goes through Committee. In an attempt to be helpful and constructive, I am looking at whether there are powers that we will be talking about that we can really give to councils or their nominated whatever it is that will make a radical difference and do something better than is going on at the moment.”
“I have great respect for the Member's experience. I know the service that he gave on Belfast City Council. All I can say is that, when I first went on to council, the whole planning issue developed into something more complicated than I first thought. You would come along and say, "I am just going to make a decision here; that is fairly obvious", and you would come to it. Understanding what you would like to achieve is one thing, but realising that you are working in a legal framework, where people can and do challenge your decisions, is another. We have just had JRs over Casement, as the Member is aware. In our place — Lisburn — we have had difficulties with getting John Lewis. All sorts of issues come in.”
“Surely we cannot go in and, if you will forgive the expression, knock heads together, bring resources to bear and get the thing sorted out. That is really what people look at in our council areas. They look around and ask, "Why is nobody doing anything about that?". As either councillors or elected representatives, we understand why things cannot be done, but that does not take away the public's frustration that things are not being attended to. My point is that I do not wish to pour cold water on what seems to be a good idea, but I am concerned about the lack of capacity of the people we are devolving these powers to.”
“I absolutely accept that point. In fact, I was actually building on the Member's point about that. I am concerned, as he is, that we are devolving responsibility to a group of people — the councils — who have the expectation that they will be able to wave a magic wand and do all the things that they have been hoping to do for years without measure. I think that, as it stands, they will not have the powers to do exactly what they thought they could. There will be legal challenges and issues. Furthermore, they will not have the resources to implement them, even if they get the go-ahead. <BR /> <BR />Nevertheless, there is an opportunity here. We have all identified areas in our own localities about which we have said, "I really would like to see some form of regeneration".”
“<BR /> <BR />Mr Wilson made the point that it is detrimental that this has been delayed for a year. Actually, I am not sure that we should not be able to, out of necessity, make use of the year to get this right and put the thing in the proper order. My biggest concern in all these things is that, in our haste to do what we deem to be right and devolve powers to local councils, we do it in such a disorganised way, with a lack of focus and strategic vision, that we end up with something that is not satisfactory.”
“and other such things that would help us to go forward. If the Bill is to be a success, we need to give them the financial resources. <BR /> <BR />The money that may or may not be transferred to the councils is circa £60 million to £65 million, but that will depend on the out-turn of the Budget. I wonder how that will be allocated. Will it be allocated on the basis of need? Will it be allocated on the basis of competitive tendering, where people come in and say, "We have a really good idea"? How will that work? How will it be used to lever in the other financial opportunities that are out there, like the warm homes scheme or the work with the European Investment Bank that we heard about from Simon Hamilton yesterday? These are issues of financial control. What I see is a lot of good ideas but some quite muddied and muddled thinking.”
“I wonder whether it is possible to create some form of financial vehicle that can be administered by councils to deliver a scheme such as Mr McCann outlined. I do not know whether that is within the remit of the Minister or whether he thinks that this is going too far beyond it. However, I look at the briefing paper on the urban regeneration and communication development framework and note that it says that we ought to be able to bring forward:”
“Actually, Mr McCann, I am in complete agreement with you on that. I only used heat pumps as one example. I take your point that, if you were starting anywhere, you would probably start with insulation. It depends on what the fabric of each house is. The point I am making is that, given that you get a wide variety of heating sources, ownership models, people of different ages and different investment potential, we ought to be able to find a way forward in dealing with that. I hope that the Bill will give councils the powers to take what they deem to be the right way forward. <BR /> <BR />Following on from Mr McCann's intervention, we heard the Minister of Finance and Personnel talk yesterday about how he would like financial transactions capital to be used for energy efficiency and suchlike.”
“I wonder, given that there are conflicting commercial interests and perhaps even conflicting interests among the people who have made investments in the houses, whether the Bill will give councils or their development agency an overarching right to go in and say, "This is for the common good. This is what we're going to do". That is what the powers in the Bill need to do. If there are legal challenges — I see that the officials are really nervous about that — then I think it behoves the Assembly to tackle those head-on and stipulate in statute what you can do. I then had a look at some other things that —”
“There is a range of issues there, and we need a coordinating group that can come along and say, "This is what we need to do for the best to try to tackle the scourge of fuel poverty". <BR /> <BR />I can give Members an example of that. For many people, the use of heat pumps is a viable alternative if they do not live close to the gas main. Heat pumps provide cheap heating for people who do not have it. One of the big problems, however, is that the NIE wiring is so old and dilapidated that you cannot install the heat pumps without somebody updating it. You cannot just update one house; you have to do it on a street-by-street basis.”
“We have been talking about that today, with the announcement of the gas network going to the west, and we have been talking about the impact of burning solid fuel. However, the question is this: can we devolve powers to people to bring in district heating? Are councils in a position to do some form of attack on fuel poverty, even though that may have an impact on commercial interests extant in the local community? <BR /> <BR />If you look further into how one might tackle fuel poverty, there is an issue with having multiple occupancy in streets, and I am not talking about the HMOs that have been taken out. If you want to fix a street, you will find that some people will own their house, some people will be renting a house, some houses will be vacant and some houses will be flats.”
“I understand — it is part of the Bill — that the Department will be able to say, "We think that this is a scheme that affects the whole of Northern Ireland. It's on a regional basis, and therefore we are going to take control of it". However, the issue of giving very firm direction to councils is an important one that needs to be teased out when the Bill gets to Committee Stage. <BR /> <BR />I am also interested in certain specifics. I apologise for just asking questions, but this is the first time that I have really had a chance to look at it. The Minister might be able to respond to these issues. One of the biggest travesties in Northern Ireland is fuel poverty. Part of the reason for that is that people do not have access to, for example, the gas network.”
“<BR /> <BR />The Bill needs to address how you can do something that is genuinely in the greater community interest. The Committee was reviewing that, and the Minister may look at this point. We have not got the balance right. There are situations in which developers hold to ransom people who would like to develop an area for the community. When the Committee looks at that at Committee Stage, it may like to find a way to deal with that issue. <BR /> <BR />I note that DSD will retain some form of overarching strategic role in the matter. That seems to me to be a recipe for disaster, because you are never sure who exactly is driving what. Either you are giving the powers to the local community and the council and saying, "We trust you to go and do it" or you are not.”
“Having listened to Mr Wilson's contribution and having read the Hansard report of the Committee's considerations, I believe that a number of interesting issues need to be addressed. <BR /> <BR />If you are looking to vest land, one of the big arguments is what is in the public interest. When the Committee considered that, some examples were given about Larne and how there were areas there that could really do with some action but there was some sort of impasse. I have experience of exactly the same situation in Dromore in my constituency, where everybody knows that regeneration is needed. We have had meeting after meeting and committee after committee to try to get something done, yet the land is tied up in the hands of, I believe, three separate landowners.”
“— on a PPP basis and some were on others. However, for people in the west, it would be helpful if you could let them understand that they are not being victimised. I would like to give you the opportunity to make the matter clear.”
“The Minister has reacted angrily to some questions from Members. From my position, I am still not sure as to why there seems to be a disproportionate effect on the west compared to other areas. I think that it would be reasonable, Minister, for you to explain that to people. You did say earlier in your answers that some contracts were —”
“As you said, Minister, finance is the real nub of the issue. Are you in favour of raising funds from users of inland waterways, for example, through a boat tax, in much the same way that we raise money through car taxes, provided that the money is used specifically for enhancing inland waterways?”
“How did you arrive at that figure? Is it for all of us?”
“Minister, on 11 January on the BBC, in relation to corporation tax, you stated:”
“There has been a lot of discussion about the scientific basis for the decision-making. How important is scientific analysis in our discussions? When we talk to the Commission, does it challenge the science, or is there just no information available — in other words, there is no science? Where is the gap in our understanding?”
“Minister, if I could follow up on the point that has just been made, I take a slightly different view of it. I think that it is a clever move that you are bringing them together, but I do wonder about the opportunity to reach out to international markets. There is some problem for Northern Ireland, in that we are really not the destination. A lot of people land in Dublin and head south. Is there any way that we can enhance the role of Tourism NI to reach some markets that, sadly, have been a little bit neglected in the past?”
“The Minister in her original answer talked about this as a marketing programme. Does she anticipate increasing the income from licences to make the fishing industry more sustainable? In other words, we would take the marketing income so that we could spread it more widely.”
“<BR /> <BR />The final thing that I would like to say, and that I have noticed, is that far too many people try to use events to advance their own particular agendas. The real lessons from the last few days were of a need for genuine tolerance and how it is good to air things in a proper and respectful manner. It is not about seizing those issues and trying to use them for our own advantage. With that, I think that the western democracies have a lot to do to engage their peoples on the matters that really matter to them.”
“The mainstream media does not take on those challenges and, therefore, leaves individuals and small entities to face them alone. I think that that is the real challenge for us: not just to issue some words of French, but to speak out when speaking out is necessary. <BR /> <BR />That brings me to the next challenge that we face, which was alluded to by Mr Allister. Where are the limits to free speech? Is it absolutely acceptable to say anything, or are there any constraints? If there are constraints, who should put those in place? <BR /> <BR />One of the other things is that democratic chambers should take on the big debates. We should not duck the issues or hide behind some sense of not wanting to offend anybody. Let us have the proper debates in the proper areas.”
“I condemn absolutely the actions that took place in Paris. I offer my sympathy to the victims and their families and my solidarity with the people of France. The actions of the last few days offer a number of really significant challenges to some quite powerful forces in our society. <BR /> <BR />My colleague Mr Agnew has just used, yet again, the phrase "Je suis Charlie". One of the challenges for us is whether that is enough. I suspect that there are not many in the Chamber who will have been aware of 'Charlie Hebdo' before the tragic events took place. One of the issues for us is whether we should leave it to individuals or small groups of people to stand up for our democracy. One of the big challenges that I have is for the media: for it to impose some form of censorship on itself.”
“We are spending money on flood defences when we could be spending it elsewhere. That is an indication of the climate change issue. <BR /> <BR />Finally, it was announced recently that China and the US voluntarily agreed that they would do something about climate emissions. That is why the initiatives that are being announced by the Minister are significant. They are not just something tagged on at the end of business. It is a really important thing and I look forward to seeing how it develops. I wish her well with her initiatives.”
“But you run into a problem when you try to adopt that as part of the scheme that the Minister is going to bring forward because it is not clear that the domestic electrical connections will be strong enough to support this equipment. <BR /> <BR />We need to do a bit of work on that. We can bring down the power utilisation of this equipment or strengthen the grid. We had a discussion about who would pay for the enhancement of the grid. <BR /> <BR />This is important, because fuel poverty affects our people significantly. These initiatives are good for not just the climate but they offer a way of bringing fuel relief to those most in need. Secondly, it should not go beyond notice that at a time of real austere financial conditions, the Prime Minister is announcing flood defences.”
“Mr Deputy Speaker, I will take guidance from you, of course, but I do think that this is absolutely germane to the point. I hope that the Minister will be talking to her colleagues in the Strategic Investment Board about how we might use the financial transactions capital to assist in other incentives for domestic encouragement. That should be tied in with the research that we do for the university. <BR /> <BR />I will just conclude by saying where we might have industrial support. We have Emerson, Kingspan, and the people in Newry, Glen Dimplex, all of whom have got low-energy and low CO2 heat equipment available.”
“The key point, though, having got people's attention, is that there are areas where we can take research that has been developed in the University of Ulster coming through Horizon 2020, which we are all agreed that we should try to do more of, and let us see if we can get more —”
“— If you will excuse me. Yes, very bad. I do apologise.”
“Furthermore, heat pumps were invented by a man from Northern Ireland known as Lord Kelvin. I say "invented"; rather, he worked out the theoretical background to them. <BR /> <BR />On the issue of trying to get joined-up working to support the domestic initiative that the Minister has announced here today, the University of Ulster is, of course, our lead on energy matters through Horizon 2020. <BR />They will have been able to draw down I think £11 million from European sources: not from the Assembly, not from Westminster, but from European sources, of course with the assistance, I am quite sure, of DETI in the proposals, so —”
“I will put some things out there, but one of the things that I would like to hear about from the Minister concerns being joined up on tackling fuel poverty. <BR /> <BR />When people talk about the cost of renewables, one of the issues raised is that not all renewables cost the same amount of money. Gas is one of the most cost-effective sources of energy at the moment, but, of course, not everybody is connected to gas pipelines. Mr Kinahan talked about air-source heat pumps. I wonder whether he was also minded to include ground-source heat pumps. When you look at the cost of installation and the ongoing costs, you will see that heat pumps are even cheaper than gas in the longer term. Therefore, if you want to do renewables, that is a cost-effective solution.”
“When we get towards the end of the term and are approaching Christmas, there is a danger of getting bogged down in what appears to be "minutiae", as Mr Wilson called it. Having listened throughout the debate, this is one of the more significant bits of business that the Assembly will transact in the entire session. I am really very pleased that the Minister has brought it to our attention. <BR /> <BR />When we look at the regulations, there are a number of points to be made. One of the key ones is that heat and transport are a bigger part of our energy consumption than just about everything else. We tend to talk a lot about electricity, particularly if it comes from wind farms or the like, and there are certain problems with that. Our key challenge is to do with heating.”
“Far be it from me to interrupt when you are going to quote me. <BR /> <BR />I was disappointed that I was not able to take part in the debate, because it is an area that we have looked at in the all-party group. The key issue the Minister raised was that, if we are going to enhance the grid, which there seems to be some benefit from, somebody has to pay. That could be the consumer or industry, or the Minister raised the point about other funds from Europe or wherever. Did the Committee consider at any time who should pay for enhancing the grid?”
“I appreciate the Member giving way. He is learned in legal matters and will be aware of a court case or challenge between the regulator and NIE. Does he think that it would be the right thing for Northern Ireland to put up the prices to consumers and business so that we could build out the grid in advance of demand, or does he think that the regulator was right to restrain NIE's ambitions in that regard?”
“Can I ask a question similar to the one that I asked Mr Anderson? On the idea of taking a strategic view of building out the grid in advance, would you support the regulator increasing the price to the consumer or to businesses in order to do that in a timely fashion for a long-term vision? Do you think that there is some other way that we can finance the building-out of the grid?”
“I thank the Member for giving way. Earlier, Mr Agnew made a point about having a strategic approach to the grid; to build it out rather than wait for demand. Does the Member agree that we should build out now in anticipation? If so, who does he think should pay for that investment?”
“Minister, are you expecting that revised plan today? If so, when will you be in a position to evaluate it and decide whether you can help?”
“Would the Minister care to comment on whether she regrets the loss of Ultach in the past couple of days?”
“This is a political fudge; this is not a great day for Northern Ireland or the Assembly; and this is all we can achieve, which is not very much. Is there any need to have 20 people on the board? I asked Mr Sheehan why it needed to be so big. Do we want it to be even bigger? Do we want it to have 30 members? When we try to get more and more people on a body, the danger is that it does not get agreement. The fundamental problem with this debate is that there is no agreement, no trust and no way forward. <BR /> <BR />We will look at that when the Bill is being scrutinised. It is a very limited Bill, but I still worry that it is the Trojan Horse that will see the destruction of many of our successful schools, and I will not stand for it.”
“It is interesting that that is one of the supposedly succinct interventions from the Member, but somewhere in the middle of that was the statement that this education and library board was run for quite some time with no political intervention. <BR /> <BR />I will go back to your point, Mr Principal Deputy Speaker. As I understand it, part of the Bill concerns the removal of education and library boards to turn them into a single education and library board, and another aspect is the membership of that body. That is why I think that my reference to the Belfast Education and Library Board and the South Eastern Education and Library Board is relevant to the discussion. <BR /> <BR />I do not wish to detain Members unnecessarily, other than to say that this is the minimum required.”
“I will make the point and let you come in in a minute, Mr Weir. <BR /> <BR />This was where people made a point and said, "We are not going to agree a budget." Apparently that is an OK tactic if it is a South Eastern Education and Library Board but not if you are an Executive or Assembly. That is what caused that place to go and why we have had no political representation.”
“We will come to the South Eastern Board, because I know that Mr Lunn has a point on that. Maybe that was not a bad thing. Was it a bad thing that people were able to make decisions based on fact, policy and strategic vision? We got a great litany of what happens when politics gets involved in these decisions. It is really difficult to close a school in your area. <BR /> <BR />Mr Lunn mentioned the South Eastern Education and Library Board. I seem to recall — Mr Lunn might correct me as he is perhaps more expert on this matter than me — that it was the DUP that voted that body out of existence because it would not agree a budget. That is a pretty interesting position for Members on that side of the House because they are now —”
“I understand that you have to move forward on certain issues because of timescales, but we have not really fixed the problem. All that we have done is the minimum that is required. <BR /> <BR />There are a number of issues, and I recognise that I have little influence on these debates in terms of votes. All that I can do is raise with you concerns that I, as a stakeholder, would raise. It is not just the bodies that have a stake. I have a stake. It is my future. It is my children's future. It is our community's future. I am concerned that we are not addressing these issues properly. <BR /> <BR />Some people mentioned the Belfast Education and Library Board and how it went on without political representation for quite some time. Mr Newton brought that up.”
“This is the next step over which we have no control. Earlier, Mr Rogers was adamant about bringing forward amendments because he thinks that the Bill does not go far enough; he wants to make it an ESA Bill. I am concerned that the provisions put forward in the Bill are simple because we could agree on nothing else. <BR /> <BR />There is no agreement. There is no shared vision. There is no trust. There is no ability to work together. All there is is fear. I fear for, amongst others, the voluntary grammar sector, the controlled grammar sector, the integrated sector and the Irish-medium sector. The problem is that these people are left out of a consultation on what is a fundamental part of our civic society. We have not really addressed that issue; we have not actually got a resolution.”
“You can argue about whether we have to do it by accelerated passage or not. I voted against that earlier today because I do not think that it is a good idea in principle, but I do understand the reasoning. <BR /> <BR />The most important thing that I would like the Minister to address is to be found on page 10 of the Official Report of the Committee meeting of 30 September. I do not think that it has been covered in this debate. The Minister said:”
“Mr Agnew, who spoke before me, said that this is a fairly limited proposal and it is not a good day for education or for the Assembly. I concur. This is the minimum. In fact, the Minister said:”
“Let us be honest: you cannot get a Bill on the Floor if it does not have agreement from the Executive. Those Bills were opposed because they were wrong. <BR /> <BR />When I look at this document, there are three phrases that stand out. The first is "the minimum required"; the second is "expediency", which Mr Hazzard used; and the third is "a strategic body", which is what the Minister hoped that this would be. Yet I can read the official record of 30 September, when the Minister outlined his proposals for accelerated passage, and he said:”
“A long, long, long time ago, I was a member of the Ulster Unionist Party. As Mr Craig pointed out, I was education spokesman. I listened to Miss McIlveen say, I think, that she had had the benefit of many UUP spokesmen and many bits of advice and was singularly unimpressed by any of them or anybody who had delivered them. I am happy to stand here and put my academic background in the measure against colleagues opposite. I am happy to take on the debate. I will not be intimidated. If any of you wish to take me on, I am happy to have the debate. That is the purpose of the Chamber and this part in the proceedings. <BR /> <BR />If Members opposite would like to have a copy of Hansard, I will send it to them, as the record shows where the opposition to the ESA Bills that were brought forward originally came from.”
“I just wonder on that point because I think that the Minister has said that, if we could expand the number of places to 30, we could probably fill those as well. Lots of people think that they should have representation on the board. The board may become unwieldy. Is the Member absolutely certain that we need sectoral representation on the board at all? Do we need people with vested interests trying to fight their corner, or should we look at a different way of doing things, which was the intention of the original ESA Bill? I just wonder whether we really have to make the board so big that everybody is on it.”