Basil McCrea
Lagan Valley · Ulster Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“I carried on that work on the all-party group on science and technology, and, when I am gone from this place, I hope that those who are still here will take up the challenge of science and technology, because that is where the jobs are and that is where the future is.”
“I rise for the last time to address the Assembly. I thank the people of Lagan Valley for the privilege of representing them over the past nine years. It seems like only yesterday that I first got here, awestruck by the names on the doors of people that I had seen only on television, and, yet, here we are.”
“— what matters is to have the courage to go on. I will go on. I will leave this place with my head high, with my colours flying, with my dignity intact and with all conviction about what is good for Northern Ireland. In conclusion, two roads diverged in the woods, and I took the road less travelled. That has made all the difference.”
“Despite the heckling from the man in front of me, I shall ask a question of the Minister in two parts. First, would the Minister care to tell us what was his personal favourite of the many events at the Northern Ireland Science Festival?”
“I am grateful to the Member for the explanation, and I have no doubt that her efforts to draft the amendment were well-intentioned. Maybe she can help me on this, if it has come up in the discussions.”
“Actually, when I read it, I understood it to be the other way round. However, I am happy that it is a more general stance and is not limited to single acts. <BR /> <BR />As regards amendment No 2, I approached the concept in a sympathetic manner, but I am not convinced that we can properly define an imbalance of power.”
The complete record
Every one of 747 lines we hold for Basil McCrea, in date order, each linked to its source. Free to read, in full, without an account. Page 7 of 15.
“I say to the Minister that I fully support his decision to attend the UN meeting in Paris. My question for him in this environment is this: how many other MLAs in the Chamber do you think would support your concern about climate change? Given that we are in the middle of Environment Week — I know that Ms Lo and the Minister were in attendance last night — what importance do you think that has for Northern Ireland, in a local sense, in tackling climate change?”
“Given that there were some changes in Irish language delivery and planning, can the Minister outline what steps we have been able to take to reassure the entire community that the Irish language will be supported on a cross-community basis and not just for one section of our community?”
“Paragraph 1(ii) of the Minister's statement, under "Progress report", mentions capital expenditure. The last time that the Committee was down talking to Waterways Ireland, we were told that there was some concern that there was barely enough money in the capital budget to keep the infrastructure open. Is the Minister able to tell us what the forthcoming capital expenditure will be and whether there will be any opportunity on the Northern side, as it were, to do more with that great asset that we have?”
“On the financial stability of the university sector, given what you know, do you anticipate further redundancies in following financial years unless action is taken?”
“Is the Minister aware that the Regional Training Unit (RTU) previously held a summer camp that was attended by over 2,000 teachers but was cancelled this year because of funding constraints and that teachers went ahead and organised it themselves? Do you think that that was a worthwhile exercise?”
“Let us find a way of making them work. I am quite pleased — I am really pleased — that I have had the opportunity to make some really important points that I hope the wider public will listen to.”
“Even he has a contribution to make. I would like him to be a little bit more welcoming of the institutions and not revel in the fact that they are not working. Let us find a way of making —”
“Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. The crisis in waiting times is important, but it will not be resolved by finger-pointing. Everybody in here has a role to play. That is in getting around a table and making a meaningful contribution. Even Mr Allister in his contribution —”
“The rest of them scattered the minute there was any attack from the DUP. Let me tell you this: I am quite happy to stand my ground —”
“People in the Chamber have made certain statements during the debate. Members from Sinn Féin have pointed the finger at why the Minister is not here. I respond by saying that their failure to address welfare reform was part and parcel of the funding deficit that means that we cannot address the waiting lists highlighted in the motion. That is a point that I wish to make. <BR /> <BR />I heard Members from the Alliance Party say that it is a disgrace that there is no Minister here. Was it not the party that was going to vote for some form of suspension so that we would not have been here for four or five weeks? What would have happened to waiting lists then? <BR /> <BR />I remember being in the Chamber when I was in the UUP and was one of the very few people who would rise to defend the then Minister of Health.”
“Mr Deputy Speaker, remarks are being made from a sedentary position, which if we are going to be very precise —”
“Mr Deputy Speaker, I am always grateful for your direction. You will be aware that I am responding to points raised around the Chamber. This is a debate. Do you know what, Mr Deputy Speaker? If the UUP cannot take a debate, it should not start an argument in the first place.”
“When you look at who is to blame for the Minister not being here, it was rather leading with the chin when a UUP Minister is not taking his ministerial seat. In fact, there are some who would say that that action precipitated the entire crisis. That may be something that the UUP wishes to take credit for, but I do not think that that is a good plan. It is interesting to see them all here en masse —”
“This institution will not take the decisions to implement Donaldson. It will not face the fact that we have seven hospitals when, in a region of our size, we might have three.”
“The proposer of the motion has brought a very serious situation to our attention, and she deserves credit for that. I am less sure about the arguments that have flowed from it about who is to blame and who should be here in the Chamber. Does it really matter that the Minister is not here today in his place and does it matter who is responsible for why he is not here? The waiting lists will not change just because Simon Hamilton is not here or whatever. This has been an ongoing issue. The real reason behind it is that the challenges on our health budget increase 6% year on year and yet our income increases by 1%. There is a deficit that the Assembly has not been able to bridge. So, it is not correct to simply point the finger at commissioners, trusts and board members.”
“I suspect that this Big Conversation is with the wrong people. Higher education is in crisis, the financial funding of it is unsustainable, and we are the only region in the United Kingdom to actively disinvest. The Minister chided, I think, Mr Flanagan for being the first person to bring up the issue of fees. Actually, apart from Mr Allister, nobody else has talked about it. This Assembly voted to cap fees. This Assembly said that it would make up the shortfall to the universities that that led to. This Assembly did not do that. It cut the funding. This is a stark choice; you have to get off the rhetoric. The big question that I want to ask the Minister is this: when is he going to have a big conversation with the MLAs around this Chamber who make these decisions, because that is where this decision needs to be taken?”
“I acknowledge the Minister's even-handedness in this, and I wanted to put that on the record. I realise that it is primarily DETI that is taking the lead on the matter. <BR /> <BR />Is she aware that there is concern from the Commonwealth Youth Council that failure to agree a bid by the Northern Ireland Executive by the end of September means that we may lose this once-in-a-lifetime opportunity? Will she write to Departments to encourage them to support games that everyone thinks are a good thing?”
“Will the Minister tell us what authority she thinks that the Sports Grounds Safety Authority has?”
“— fix the whole thing and move forward. Frankly, you should know from the six of us here that people are looking and they are not impressed.”
“If you want to get a change to that, I do not think that you will be able to rush it through in four or five weeks. There is the idea that we are going to pull it all together, put bygones behind us —”
“Well, if memory serves me, he was a member of the European Parliament for quite a period of time. There are areas where it is not the right way forward, and we agreed by referendum and through the Good Friday Agreement that we would set up this type of arrangement. That is what the people voted for; that is what they want.”
“I do not believe that we will get it sorted out. We will get some sort of fudge — we always get a fudge — and some way of staggering on through, but we will not sort out the basic problems. <BR /> <BR />The dispute is not about the IRA. Did anybody here seriously think that the IRA had gone away? Did they really think that it had gone away? I do not think that that is the case. You can turn blind eyes or whatever. It was not part of the agreement. The dispute is about the inability of the parties of Government to get on with one another, to find some common goal and some way of doing something. <BR /> <BR />Mr Allister has pointed fingers around the Chamber. He said that there is nowhere else in the world where a democracy or a Government works without an opposition.”
“I can only assume that that is what happened. <BR /> <BR />I want to come on to tone. Mr Maskey told her off. He reminded her, in senatorial terms, about the tone that she might use and the damage that she might do to the talks or whatever. He then went off and had a chat about sham fights with unionists and used a tone that was not particularly constructive himself. I have to say to you, Mr Maskey, through you, Mr Speaker, that I do not think that your tone is appropriate. We should all be listened to in the Assembly, and that is where I agree with Mr Agnew. We should not be having the talks behind closed doors; we should be having them on the Floor of the Assembly. <BR /> <BR />Mr Nesbitt mentioned a few points. He said that it was make or break, that we will or will not get it sorted out.”
“I congratulate Ms Sugden on a brilliant piece of politics in bringing the Matter of the Day before the Assembly. I say that as one of only six people in the House who are not party to the talks. The only thing that I did not like about her speech was that I think that she ran out of time before she mentioned my name in the list of people going forward, but it is —”
“Populations move, and, therefore, there must be some constraints in that, but, really, look at where we are going to be in 20 to 30 years' time. Are we still going to be in segregated education? Are we still going to have us and them? If we are, I think that we will not make much in the way of political progress.”
“I do not think that it does challenge the point, because, if you look at a primary school, you can see that the geographical catchment area is much smaller than it is for a secondary school, and for a secondary school it is smaller than it is for a university. The point is that we are leaving it too late if the first time that you get to meet people from the opposite tradition is at third-level education. Where you have a population that would like to do integrated education, I think that it should not be prevented. What I see is that there are areas where integrated education is capped. I do not think that that is right. I think that the numbers should be released. I understand that the Minister will have difficulties in trying to manage his estate.”
“It is something that we should actively do. I think that the real problem in all of this is that education is a political battlefield. The reason education is different from employment and learning — I moved to the different Committee — is that it is accepted in further and higher education that people mix. We do not have a Catholic university and a Protestant university. We have a university — or maybe I should say "an". No; is it "a" university? I will just make sure that, in an education debate, I get it right. The issue is whether we can find a way forward.”
“I am grateful to the Member for his contribution. In fact, I also want to say that I was quite taken by the contribution of his colleague Mr Rogers. I thought that that was quite well argued and thought out. This is where I have a bit of a dilemma. Can you move directly to integrated education, as Mr Lunn was advocating, given that, in certain areas, you have deeply polarised communities? This is a challenge for us. I think that Mr Somerville mentioned that 50% of our pupils go to schools that are made up from 95% of one side or the other. There is a certain issue there that we have to address, but I have to say that I feel strongly that the motion of travel should be some discrete form of integration.”
“You can argue that, and there was a bit of a discussion coming up before about whether you are for selective education or not. That is a different issue, but the principle is that, where you have common populations living together, they should go to school together. I am instructed in this by some experience in Magherafelt, and I look at the really good work that Rainey Endowed, St Mary's and other schools do in the area about how they work together. It is my opinion that —”
“How do you deal with integrated education where you have deeply polarised communities and societies? What are you going to do? Will you bus people from one side of the city to another? I am not for bussing. Where there is a natural integration of a population, I am for saying that they should go to a common school. <BR /> <BR />One of the things that I find quite strange coming from the Department and the Minister is how, for people who are so adamant about having no selective education, they cannot turn around and say that they want integrated education. Surely, the premise should be that, if you live in a particular area, you go to a local school and that all schools should be equal and should all deliver the same level of attainment. Is that not the goal?”
“I had a chance to look at the report only today, and, interestingly, not much has changed since I was last on the Education Committee. I start off with the premise that says that the future of our part of the world depends on the absolute integration of our children. If you were to ask where you want to be in 20 or 30 years' time, you would say that you want everybody to share some form of common identity. It would not be exclusive to any other identity that they might have, but we must find some way of working and living together. I start off with that premise, and I say that I am for integrated education. <BR /> <BR />I then look at some of the practical issues, which I think that we do have to address. Maeve McLaughlin was talking about areas in her part of the world.”
“I would just like to give the Member an extra minute.”
“However, the Speaker has asked me not to carry on with this point and I will respect his wishes. I will say, however, that I intend to do this properly and formally. I would like to work with the Minister and his Department, in the same way that he worked with Lord Morrow in detail on his issues, to see that we get a resolution on this. In response to his Alliance Party colleague's statement about whether we are being seen to deliver, I can tell you that many of the issues in the Bill are important but will not catch the public's imagination. The amendment that I will be proposing will certainly say to the public, "We are dealing with an issue that is of concern to you."”
“I will address that issue. There is a legislative principle about whether this is a single-purpose or a multipurpose Bill. That is the point that has been raised. It has been established that this is a multiple-purpose Bill and, therefore, it is appropriate for me, as a Member, to bring such amendments as I feel fit. I hope that we will get support for this; I think that it is a matter that we can discuss sensibly and find some sort of resolution to. <BR /> <BR />Through you, Mr Speaker, I am aware that the Member who raised the point is on record as taking a very liberal, positive and progressive stance on the issue of flags, and I am sure that his record will stand up to scrutiny when we have a discussion on the matter. I hope that he will support dealing with what is a very vexatious issue for many of us.”
“— so I think that it is legitimate that I say it. I would just like to get support. I think that it is an issue that we would like to deal with, and, of course, I will make the arguments when we come to the appropriate stage. <BR /> <BR />I will just conclude on the issues that are actually in the Bill. I was aware from the Policing Board of the issue of the extension to the investigation beyond designated police stations. I think that it is right and proper that we should do that. I also think that it is appropriate that we should find an ombudsman for prisons. I am not sure whether it would be for prisoners or prisons, and I will look at the point that Mr Maginness has made. However, in general terms, I am satisfied and supportive of this Bill going through, and I hope that we have —”
“I am happy to take your direction as ever, Mr Speaker, though I thought that I was talking about the general principles. In any case, I will take your direction. The point that I really want to address is that I understand the legislative constraints and that this is a miscellaneous-type Bill. It has been mentioned by the Chair, the Deputy Chair and a member of the Alliance Party —”
“So I am quite sure that the Alliance Party will be interested in some amendments and might discuss the matter properly. I will also say to my —”
“So, although some Members around here have indicated that they want to try to keep this a little tighter, I am giving notice that I intend to introduce amendments on the issue of flying flags from public lamp posts and in other areas. This is an area that I think we will find some support on. I heard the leader of the Ulster Unionist Party say, when he made his great announcement in the Hall, that he would not be averse to their taking down their paramilitary flags and other flags, so we might expect some support there. I will also mention the Alliance councillor Emmet McDonough-Brown, who said that constituents in his area wanted to know why the police appeared to have reversed last year's policy and had not stopped the erection of flags that week — this is around the Belfast area.”
“One of the things that I find really distressing is when I see flags flying from lamp posts like tattered rags. You see them all around the place. Now, if we are going to deal with certain other provisions in this Bill, I think that this is also something that we should deal with. You asked the question of whether it is a necessary piece of legislation. Well, I can quote the PSNI's Chief Superintendent Nigel Grimshaw, who said that clearer legislation on flags is needed. He went on:”
“In fact, they talk about it incessantly, and I think that we should take the opportunity to deal with it. It is the absence of any replacement for the 1954 legislation on flags and emblems. As you will know, this legislation was repealed in, I think, 1986.”
“The reason why I am here talking at this stage in the Bill is that there is an issue that I think we need to address. It is an issue of public concern. It is an issue that many people have talked about.”
“One of the issues that victims of crime have with the justice system is that it seems to take a very long time for anything to happen, and then nobody really remembers that there was any form of punishment. So, there is a balance about the right way forward that needs to be considered properly by the Committee. I am not prejudging it; I am saying only that there is an issue about community service that I think we will want to deal with. <BR /> <BR />The more substantive bit that I want to mention in this contribution is the miscellaneous nature of the Bill, which has been raised a number of times by a number of people. The Chair, the Deputy Chair and even the Alliance Party have said, "Listen, we need to be careful about making this a little wider".”
“I am grateful to Mr Ross for the explanation. In his contribution, Mr Maginness was very generous in praising the exemplary leadership provided by you and the Deputy Chair. <BR /> <BR />Since we are in a spirit of togetherness on this, I will say that I am sympathetic to, and understanding of, the point that the Chair has raised. I think that it is a debate, though, that we should not be afraid to have. We should be able to explain it to people. At the risk of raising a thorny issue, it is something that we will have to look at. There are issues about community service and about whether, to use a tabloid headline, we have "name-and-shame" type provisions or whether this is something that is best done in a more anonymous manner. We need to address these matters.”
“I am, in principle, interested in finding different ways of seeing justice delivered, particularly in a more humane process. It is not right that you send people to prison for what are relatively minor offences; there must be some better way of dealing with these issues. I am not saying that I have a solution for it just now, but we need to examine how we convince the public that this is not a soft issue or a soft solution — a point that Mr Somerville made in his maiden speech, which I congratulate him on. We have to persuade the public that we are not going soft on issues and are trying to find the best way forward. <BR /> <BR />The Chair would like to intervene.”
“There has been some discussion about the miscellaneous nature of the Bill. A number of commentators have spoken about it, and I intend to address the issue. <BR /> <BR />Some may be wondering why somebody who is not on the Justice Committee is sitting and taking an interest in these proceedings, given that it is not exactly a packed House. I think, as some Members mentioned, that other activity may be taking place elsewhere. Nevertheless, I wish to raise a number of points at this stage and give notice that I intend to follow the proceedings of the Committee in some detail. This comes, of course, of my having had four years' service on the Northern Ireland Policing Board and some time on the Justice Committee itself. So, I am still particularly interested in this. <BR /> <BR />I will deal first with the issue of community service.”
“The plan for Northern Ireland is not the same as the plan for Dublin, London or any other part of the world. We need our own plan; we need people working together; and we need absolute consistency and drive on the way forward. <BR /> <BR />I will finish on this point. There is nothing more important than getting an economy that can sustain our old and elderly people, but the fact that we have the travesty of having the highest rate of youth unemployment, compared with the rest of the United Kingdom, is something that we really ought to strive to deal with. I do not think that we are doing enough.”
“If we go into direct rule, I really want to see what Osborne will do to this place, with DETI, DEL and all the other bloated Departments that are not cutting it. If we want to take action, we need to get together and go forward. If you want to talk about the EU and our contribution to that, look at where our industries actually participate. Aerospace is an international, worldwide business. We should look at how we might compete in the world. <BR /> <BR />I want to see a strong, confident and prosperous Northern Ireland, where we have the skills to compete — not some sort of begging bowl, where we go out and say, "Give us some sort of handouts on this." Do you know what? If you do not try to come up with a plan, other people will impose their plan on you.”
“<BR /> <BR />Earlier, Mr Frew laudably tried to inject a little bit of energy into the debate and talked about the thing that he had come across on the doorsteps. Correct me if I am wrong, Mr Frew, but you said that people wanted to know about jobs and the economy — those issues. That is the simple thing that we have to tackle, and we are not tackling it. <BR /> <BR />I look at this statement. I think that it was SDLP Members who mentioned that the thing that is really missing in all of this is an overarching strategy that will take us forward. We keep patting ourselves on the head and saying that Invest NI and the Department have done great. That is rubbish. Our productivity is still not being tackled; we still do not have a plan; and we do not have any integration in the way that we approach things.”
“This corner is absolutely committed to making a contribution; this corner has things to say; and this corner will not make the mistake of not taking on people when they talk gobbledygook. That is what I see in all of this — platitudes and people going on that somebody should do something and that something should be done. Listen: the economy is tanked, and you are not doing anything about it. Do you want to know what will really make our economy take off? I agree with Mr Agnew; it is not corporation tax. I will tell you what it is. It is three things: skills, infrastructure and political stability. Let us face it; you are not doing a great job with political stability. That is the key thing that drives this.”
“There is one thing that I find really disappointing, and I will put this on the record now for the Speaker's office to look at. This is a two-hour debate, which means that, quite unusually, people on this Bench get to make a contribution. Perhaps if the people in the Assembly listened more to the people in this corner, they might do a better job.”