John Dallat
East Londonderry · Social Democratic and Labour Party · Northern Ireland
“His and Donovan's contributions were invaluable. <BR /> <BR />I know that Alliance Members and others have spoken about Seamus Close, and I am conscious that his wife Deirdre is here today. Seamus Close was an amazing individual, and I had the pleasure of serving on the Public Accounts Committee with him.”
“<BR /> <BR />As you know, Mr Speaker — this will be of particular interest to you — Donovan was a Deputy Speaker, and he was a man of severe discipline. He did not suffer fools easily. On one occasion, there was a Member who was particularly troublesome in the morning. I reassure the existing parties that it was not one of their members.”
“I know other Members appreciated it equally. <BR /> <BR />I could not resume my seat without making reference to Reverend Robert Coulter — Bob, as he allowed me to call him. He was an incredible person who had a vision for the future of the Assembly that went far beyond simply winning the next election.”
“I was in the privileged position of being a member of Coleraine council for over 30 years, and, if I was asked to highlight one of the greatest events I experienced during that time, I would say that it was meeting Harry Gregg. I am not into sport big time, but I am into sporting people who have made a huge contribution to this world.”
“Donovan McClelland was a lecturer in the University of Ulster. Life could have been very comfortable for him, but he did not choose that. He contributed to the peace process that eventually became the Good Friday Agreement and, in doing that, he brought himself danger.”
“I welcome the Minister's responses so far. The average age of people in the northern region is very high. I am not sure whether the Minister knows how many passed away before adaptations were completed or shortly afterwards.”
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“I welcome the First Minister's responses so far, particularly in relation to the improvements that she has indicated in literacy and numeracy. Does she agree, given that we have 250,000 people between the ages of 16 and 64 with serious literacy and numeracy problems, that this particular issue should not be dependent on charities, even ones as noble as Atlantic Philanthropies?”
“Does the Member agree that, in dismantling what is called the scaffolding of this place, there is a danger that we dismantle the structures that were embodied in the Good Friday Agreement, which sought to give ownership of this place to the wider community through the Civic Forum and other institutions? Does he also agree that Stormont is not Wales, Scotland or England, where democracy is quite different, and we still need to embrace the widest possible support for these institutions, which, to some degree, are still in their infancy?”
“Apparently, that is called sour grapes. It might also be called hypocrisy.”
“I realise that the Member is coming to a conclusion. Before that, will he perhaps agree with me that, given the very nature of Northern Ireland and its history, we need the broadest possible representation? That is something that we should always put at the forefront in the representation in the House and in the wider community. I regret that the Civic Forum has been, apparently, buried. We cannot function without as inclusive a body of people to support this place as we can get. <BR /> <BR />By way of finishing, I express amazement that the Alliance Party is so worried about reducing the number of Members when, for the last decade or so, it has enjoyed having two ministerial posts with eight Members when my own party, with 14 Members, has only one.”
“Far be it from me to suggest that we are going back into the Dark Ages when those wonderful Roman roads all but disappeared due to lack of maintenance, but the situation is now so radical and so serious that some roads are not due for resurfacing for 102 years. Does the Minister agree with me that, for the sake of the ratepayers, taxpayers and contractors, there has to be a new approach to how we maintain our roads?”
“As Building a United Community is the responsibility of the Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister, I hope that the children were all safely in their classrooms and did not hear the exchanges between Mr Campbell and the deputy First Minister. Does the deputy First Minister agree that this is the most serious subject, because children are our greatest asset, and the present generation do not deserve to be lured into the terrible deeds of the past? Does he also agree that summer camps on their own are only a beginning and that much more needs to be done?”
“Does the Minister agree with me that the incoming Executive will face a mammoth task in acknowledging that, in the past, much of our built heritage was lost through unapproved demolition, bombing campaigns, pure neglect and a lack of appreciation that that built heritage is very much part of our history? Will he ensure that, when he closes the books of his Department, he places a memo on the top of the file marking this as a priority?”
“I thank the Minister for his answers. Does the Minister agree that, in a perfect world, for a number of reasons, waiting lists really should not exist? The Causeway Hospital, for example, saw a record number of people over Christmas in A&E and admitted a record number of people, yet, in the local press, it is castigated because it has a waiting list. Does the Minister agree that a waiting list is no solution to a problem and only damages good people who are working under tremendously stressful conditions?”
“On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. What evidence is there that the SDLP delivered any inflammatory leaflets?”
“I come from Kilrea — one of the small towns where the sewerage systems are at full capacity. We have the undesirable practice now of reintroducing septic tanks in the town. That is not good. I do not think that that reflects the type of modern society that we want to reflect and be part of. <BR /> <BR />I am pleased to speak on the Bill. I think that it is good, but I emphasise that it is for a future Assembly to ensure that it is developed in the spirit in which it was intended.”
“<BR /> <BR />Clause 5 means that the lack of sustainable drainage is a valid reason why Northern Ireland Water can refuse connections of surface water to its public sewer network. Furthermore, if a drain, sewer or system does not meet the required standards and would prejudice the public system, it too can be refused. Connections may also be refused if suitable alternatives, such as natural landscape features, are available to deal with surface water. Clause 5 brings about entrenched scrutiny over the satisfactory construction of drain and sewerage networks, while ensuring that systems are not unnecessarily put under pressure. <BR /> <BR />I hope that, in future, whoever the Minister is — it may well be the present Minister — will have the resources to ensure that our sewerage systems are invested in properly.”
“The bigger picture is to reduce the risk of flooding in communities across Northern Ireland that results from mistakes that have been made in the past, where large areas have been covered in concrete, tarmac, roofs and all sorts of things and have reduced the ability of Mother Nature to deal with heavy rainfall when it happens. I think we were told — somebody can correct me if I am wrong — that Northern Ireland Water spends £33 million a year on electricity, and that a large part of that is used to pump surface water back up into disposal systems. That would not be necessary if we had sustainable drainage systems in all parts to deal with that in a natural way and allow the water to enter the streams, as Mother Nature intended.”
“To any future Assembly, I say this: for goodness' sake, provide the resources to enable that to happen not just in new developments but in existing ones. I cannot resist pointing out that, on these hills of Stormont, loads of water cascades down into east Belfast. I suspect that that is an area that would need to be looked at for sustainable drainage to stop flooding those poor people out. I am not suggesting that Stormont is flooding them out; it is just the land that it happens to be built on. <BR /> <BR />I do not think that we can underestimate just how important sustainable drainage is, whether it is hard SuDS or soft SuDS. I hope that the involvement of local councils in this will be grasped and that they will see the bigger picture.”
“I cannot resist pointing out that 25 of those objectionable instruments were installed not under the reign of the current Minister but under that of Mr Conor Murphy. <BR /> <BR />The clause once again shows the Assembly's commitment to not impose water charges on the people. I further welcome that any reversal of that clause must involve engagement with stakeholders before the making of regulations. Overall, that shows the robust scrutiny and flexibility in the Bill as a whole. <BR /> <BR />Clause 4 is the one that, I think, most, if not all, of us are excited about. The term "sustainable drainage systems" did not mean an awful lot to me, to be honest. Like others, I am glad of the visit to Wales, where we saw at first hand practical examples of communities that, in the past, had experience of flooding having that threat alleviated.”
“I hear a foreign station butting in; I will, of course, give way if necessary. <BR /> <BR />I welcomed the Bill's reduction of Northern Ireland's administrative burdens, specifically through the streamlining of water resource management and drought plans under clause 2 into the water resource and supply resilience plan. The amalgamation of both into a single plan, which will be reviewed at least every two years and revisited at least every six years, will lead to a reduction in bureaucracy and red tape and, ultimately, in administration costs. It is certainly welcome. <BR /> <BR />Under clause 3, the Bill will also remove the erroneous requirement for NI Water to install meters at domestic properties that are connecting to the water supply for the first time.”
“<BR /> <BR />At the Final Stage, it is important to reflect on the Bill's purpose and how it will benefit Northern Ireland at large. The Bill, once enacted, will extend existing arrangements to allow the Department to pay a subsidy to NI Water to ensure that the Executive's pledge to not apply household charges to domestic consumers during the current Assembly mandate is kept. It also gives the Department the power to make subordinate legislation to extend the period in which a subsidy is paid if necessary in the future. I know the Alliance Party does not like that, but I think the majority of voters will be interested in what I just said. <BR /> <BR />I hope that, whatever form the Executive take after the next election, they consider reaffirming their commitment to that pledge.”
“I join others in having a positive outlook on the Bill. Indeed, it is an example of the Minister, her Department and the MLAs working in perfect harmony, and it shows that, for all the bluster and fighting that this place produces, we can come together and deliver for the people of Northern Ireland. <BR /> <BR />The cooperation between the Minister and the Committee was highlighted during the previous stage, when the majority of amendments were agreed beforehand. No politician could ask for better than that. That led to a relatively smooth Consideration Stage. The amendments sought to empower the Bill further than had initially been imagined while restricting some of the more undesirable parts, and I believe they achieved that.”
“I thank the Minister for his answer. Gazing into his crystal ball, could the Minister perhaps give us an indication of when schools such as St Paul's in Coleraine and St Mary's in Clady will have the new building that they were promised if they went out of existence in return for a new build?”
“I thank the Minister for his answer. Would he agree that it might be advantageous to make industrial tribunals more friendly to the public? Take them as far away as possible from the gowns, wigs, oaths and all the trappings of those big courts that scare the life out of people. What is being done to make industrial tribunals friendly to ordinary people, who, perhaps, would not need a battery of legal support if tribunals were doing what they were originally supposed to do?”
“Of course. I will indeed, exactly on the dot.”
“I thank the Member for his intervention. Perhaps our DUP friends realise that they could have had an extra minute to make their case. Of course there are long-term consequences to the path that we are on, and in the future, when it is recognised that this is a disastrous course, it will take years and years to put it right. The service, both full-time and retained, serves the whole community and —”
“Coleraine is going down. Cushendall, Ballycastle —”
“Members know that £4·2 million went to substitute teachers for sitting at home. Of the 106 who were suspended, only six were sacked. The Assembly is in no position to say that savings cannot be made. For God's sake, the first port of call is surely not the emergency services. Those of us who have lived through the past know all too well the contribution that they made to protecting life and limb and property through the darkest days. There are other issues that the Minister, quite frankly, has not addressed —”
“It was the donkeys who made the decision not to grant the independent inquiry that would have brought out the truth. I make no apologies for labouring that point because it is important on a day like this, when we pay tribute to our firemen and firewomen, that we acknowledge that there is one outstanding injustice that needs to be cleared up. I particularly appeal to the Fire Brigades Union, who are also present in the Building, to remember their former colleague and renew their endeavours to ensure that justice is done. <BR /> <BR />I am sure that the Minister was waiting for me to come to issue of money. We probably do not have enough time today to deal with it, but, in his Department alone, £50 million a year is spent on substitutes because people are off work. I will not zone in on his Department alone.”
“As Kieran McCarthy said, last week the Attorney General published a report indicating that he knew the identity of the person who gave the order for that man to go onto the roof from which he consequently fell to his death. Later, on Thursday, I had a phone call from a retired police officer who confirmed that what the Attorney General had said was true. I make a plea to the Minister and the senior management of the Northern Ireland Fire and Rescue Service who are present in this Building and indeed to anyone else who will support the McCloskey family in bringing to a final conclusion a dreadful event that for them was devastating. Mr Poots earlier described the Fire Service, which I am sure was a very good service for years, as "led by donkeys", and I could not agree more: that is exactly what it was.”
“You do want to give way? <BR /> <BR />Before I go any further, I commend the men and women in the Northern Ireland Fire Service at ground level. I can think of no more courageous act than entering a burning property in the pursuit of saving lives and, indeed, going to road traffic incidents where people are severely injured or, indeed, dead or dying. Like other Members, I believe that firefighters are special people with great inner strength and resilience to carry out those tasks, and I wholeheartedly salute the men and women who do that. <BR /> <BR />As I said at the outset, I want to pay tribute to one fireman in particular, from Dungiven: Joe McCloskey.”
“I welcome the opportunity to wind up the debate on our amendment, and I thank the Ulster Unionists — Jo-Anne Dobson in particular — for tabling the motion in the first place. Later, I will make reference to one fireman who lost his life; indeed, Kieran McCarthy has already done that. <BR /> <BR />At the outset, let me say that, being an old codger about this place, I am astonished that, for the first time, not a single member of the party opposite gave way to an intervention. That absolutely destroyed the opportunity for the cut and thrust of politics and to develop the arguments. Let me say this —”
“I also wish the Minister all the best for the future. The Minister, of course, has personal experience of the past. Does she agree that there has to be a new synergy and a new energy to represent the needs of victims and survivors? In particular, does it amaze her that Scappaticci, alias Stakeknife, has never been questioned about the crimes that he allegedly committed?”
“I, too, welcome the Minister's statement. As a former teacher who spent very many happy years teaching in the Republic and Northern Ireland, I am interested that there is a desire to improve the cooperation between inspectors, but surely the most important people are the children themselves. What incentives are available to encourage schools, particularly from different backgrounds, North and South, to twin or come together in a working relationship to break down the myths that still exist?”
“I am glad that it caused great amusement to Lord Morrow on the Benches opposite. <BR /> <BR />The Minister quite rightly acknowledges that the neighbourhood renewal scheme has been of enormous benefit, particularly in towns like Coleraine, which needed precisely that type of investment. I am sorry that he has had to indicate that the budget has to be reduced. Will he confirm that the responsibility will transfer to the Department for Communities (DFC) and give the Assembly an indication of what the reduction will be?”
“I am so touched by the Minister's remarks that I am almost incapable of asking a supplementary.”
“I thank the Minister for her reply and wish her well in her job. She is, of course, far too young to know that the first houses were demolished around Dungiven for a bypass more than 50 years ago. She will therefore realise why we have sceptics. Will she give us some indication of when our two cities, Belfast and Derry, will have a roadway that is at least of dual carriageway standard to enable the north-west to participate fully as an equal partner in economic growth?”
“I recommend it to him for bedtime reading.”
“Does the Minister agree with me that probably no government agency has been more heavily scrutinised than the Water Service? I refer to the report from the Audit Office of a few years ago, and I speak as one who has served on the Committee from the beginning. It was one of the most comprehensive and detailed reports into any government agency ever carried out, and, subsequently, it was scrutinised by the Public Accounts Committee. Every issue that I listened to tonight was addressed in two reports over the years. So it is a myth that Northern Ireland Water has not been scrutinised. Remember, there were a few casualties as a result of that report. That did not got a mention tonight from Mr Lyttle. Perhaps he has not read the Audit Office report or, indeed, the subsequent report of the Public Accounts Committee.”
“Amendment No 7 necessitates a report every two years. You do not have to be Euclid, and you do not have to be a genius, to know that there have been years and years of underinvestment and that it did not all happen under this Assembly. During direct rule, money that should have gone into water and sewerage was diverted to security and other things. Those historical facts have yet to be addressed in a way that means that we can play catch-up. <BR /> <BR />As a member of the Committee, I am happy with Bill as it is. As I say, if amendment No 7 is a wee election stunt, I do not mind, to be honest. We can live with it.”
“I believe that considerable investment should be made to at least link up small sewerage systems to bigger ones. I just hope that infraction fines are not imposed on a future Assembly because of the failure to invest.”
“Amendment No 7 is the only amendment outside of those proposed by the Minister for Regional Development, and, to be honest, we have no strong feelings one way or the other. On balance, we do not see any reason why we could not support it. <BR /> <BR />It seems to me that the Bill should pass through the Assembly without a Division because an enormous amount of time and effort was taken to ensure agreement. <BR /> <BR />I am extremely concerned about the power to refuse connection of sewers, because there are probably 70 or 80 settlements throughout Northern Ireland that are at full capacity and cannot have additional dwellings. Kilrea is one of them. Two new homes erected recently in Kilrea have septic tanks. I live in the country, and we have a septic tank, but I would love to see the end of them.”
“<BR /> <BR />Apart from the unprecedented rainfall that many areas experienced in the last few days as a result of climate change and our failure to do anything about it, there will be ongoing less severe incidents of flash flooding, which also bring havoc to areas such as east Belfast, Newry and others, if we do not systematically embrace the whole concept of sustainable drainage systems. We have no choice. As I have said, we have a lot of people to convince that this is not an option that we can take or leave; we have no choice. <BR /> <BR />The Committee agreed to clause 6 as it stands, which involves the adoption agreement regarding the connection of drains and private sewers to public sewers.”
“I am sure that the Minister will correct me, but I believe that we pay well over £30 million a year in electricity costs, much of which is for pumping surface water to pumping stations unnecessarily. <BR /> <BR />A great deal of work has now to be done to ensure that local councils and their members have a full appreciation of the need to support sustainable drainage systems. I understand that this does not need to be an additional cost on the building of new homes if handled in the proper way. That is very important because the main argument against sustainable drainage systems is the additional cost. It does not have to be that way.”
“<BR /> <BR />If sustainable drainage systems are to be a feature of new developments and, indeed, part of the infrastructure of existing settlements in areas prone to flooding, a great deal of work has to be done to bring that about in a manner in which developers and local residents appreciate the value of soft and hard SuDS. <BR /> <BR />Recently, the Committee travelled to Wales to see examples of SuDS in high-risk areas, and we were impressed by the progress made in reducing the volumes of surface water that go into the sewerage system, which results in a massive reduction in the huge cost of pumping that water to treatment works and also ensures that the water finds its way naturally to rivers in a controlled manner.”
“The Committee agreed the clause, if amended. <BR /> <BR />It would be remiss of me not to expand a little on clauses 4 and 5, given the devastation across these islands in the past few days as a result of flooding. While it would be unreasonable to argue that sustainable drainage systems of a higher standard might have prevented those floods, it is entirely reasonable to argue that SuDS, soft or hard, as they are now known, could have helped to minimize the huge volume of rainwater that cascaded down whole neighbourhoods in a matter of a few hours.”
“Amendment No 6 affects clause 5, which deals with the refusal of surface water connection. The amendment creates a new paragraph (5C), which allows for suitable alternatives under paragraph (5B). The clause now recognises:”
“The Committee agreed to clause 2 as it stood. Clause 3 deals with the power to remove or relax the duty to install water meters when making domestic connections, and the amendments to that clause largely seek to clean up the language found around the clause. Of particular note, amendment No 5 provides district councils with a role in determining new legislation. That will be of a lot of importance in the future. The Committee agreed to clause 4 as it stood. Clause 4 involves sustainable drainage systems, which I have just mentioned.”
“It gives the Department the power to make subordinate legislation to extend that period if necessary, and, indeed, the Bill has many other features that the Minister outlined in her speech. I just wish that she had sent her speech round yesterday, as we could have avoided all this duplication. We cannot ask for that, not even in the mouth of Christmas. <BR /> <BR />I have supported the broad principles of the Bill and have scrutinised its intricacies. In particular, I have welcomed the reduction of the administrative burdens on Northern Ireland Water and the creation of a single plan that sets out specific targets and goals in the five-year period. The Committee, I am sure, has agreed to clause 1 as it stood. Clause 1 involved the extension of the period for which grants to water and sewerage undertakers can be paid.”
“In the past, I have praised the Bill for being an excellent example of collaborative legislation being initially brought forward after consultation with stakeholders and engaging fully with the Regional Development Committee later. Here, it would be remiss of me not to thank the officers of the Committee for the sterling work that they did not only in guiding the Committee but in taking us to other parts of the world with the sustainable drainage systems that Seán spoke about just now. <BR /> <BR />The Bill seeks to extend the existing arrangements to allow the Department to pay subsidy to Northern Ireland Water in view of the Executive's commitment not to apply household charges to domestic customers during the current Assembly mandate.”
“I am happy enough to speak on this. I am sorry about the turbulence that went around the Chamber early on, because I thought that we had agreement on virtually everything. That is politics, and, after all, there is an election coming up. <BR /> <BR />I welcome the opportunity to speak on the Further Consideration Stage of the Water and Sewerage Services Bill, and I further welcome the progression of the Bill through the Assembly and the work that the Committee and the Minister have put into it. Today, we are asked to debate amendments to the Bill. Fortunately, through the positive efforts of the Minister and the Committee, the majority of the amendments have already been agreed. As they stand, the amendments seek to empower the Bill even further and restrict some of the most undesirable aspects of it.”
“In this season of goodwill, love and peace, which, I hope, extends to the Chamber, I ask whether the Minister agrees that cultural tourism is one of the fastest-growing tourism markets. Does the meeting between Argyll and Bute Council and Derry City and Strabane District Council indicate that there is an appreciation that cultural tourism is a very significant part of our tourist market? Will that mean that the aspirations of the research done by people such as the late Robert Welch of the then University of Ulster will now come to fruition and that Ireland and Scotland can exchange and appreciate all the cultural things that they have in common?”
“In the lead-up to Christmas, I am in a very buoyant mood, and I readily acknowledge that Waterways Ireland has done a great deal to transform the River Bann from a large drainage system into what could be the Riviera of the North. Will the Minister assure the Assembly that everything possible is being done to encourage private investment that is capable, in the long term, of creating many sustainable jobs in leisure, hospitality and tourism?”
“I am sure that people in East Derry will be listening with great interest. It is an area of very high unemployment, where those who have not emigrated live in hope that something significant will emerge out of this former army camp. Can the Minister, in the mouth of Christmas, when we are supposed to be full of cheer, give us some indication of the number of jobs that will potentially emerge out of this wonderful asset that was bequeathed to us?”
“I assure all the Members present, and those who are not, that the Public Accounts Committee is one of our best tools for convincing the public at large that money is fully accounted for under a regional Government. I want to see that demonstrated with clarity as we move on.”