John Dallat
East Londonderry · Social Democratic and Labour Party · Northern Ireland
“His and Donovan's contributions were invaluable. <BR /> <BR />I know that Alliance Members and others have spoken about Seamus Close, and I am conscious that his wife Deirdre is here today. Seamus Close was an amazing individual, and I had the pleasure of serving on the Public Accounts Committee with him.”
“<BR /> <BR />As you know, Mr Speaker — this will be of particular interest to you — Donovan was a Deputy Speaker, and he was a man of severe discipline. He did not suffer fools easily. On one occasion, there was a Member who was particularly troublesome in the morning. I reassure the existing parties that it was not one of their members.”
“I know other Members appreciated it equally. <BR /> <BR />I could not resume my seat without making reference to Reverend Robert Coulter — Bob, as he allowed me to call him. He was an incredible person who had a vision for the future of the Assembly that went far beyond simply winning the next election.”
“I was in the privileged position of being a member of Coleraine council for over 30 years, and, if I was asked to highlight one of the greatest events I experienced during that time, I would say that it was meeting Harry Gregg. I am not into sport big time, but I am into sporting people who have made a huge contribution to this world.”
“Donovan McClelland was a lecturer in the University of Ulster. Life could have been very comfortable for him, but he did not choose that. He contributed to the peace process that eventually became the Good Friday Agreement and, in doing that, he brought himself danger.”
“I welcome the Minister's responses so far. The average age of people in the northern region is very high. I am not sure whether the Minister knows how many passed away before adaptations were completed or shortly afterwards.”
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“The memorandums of reply and subsequent 12-monthly updates give the Committee the opportunity to continue to keep track of the implementation of these recommendations and to ensure that they are followed through in their entirety. As indicated, the work of the PAC is supported greatly by the Northern Ireland Audit Office. I thank the Comptroller and Auditor General and his staff for their help and assistance throughout the year. <BR /> <BR />Speaking in a personal capacity and, as I referred to earlier, as the longest-serving member of the Committee, I want to recognise those Committee members who have done so much to give the Public Accounts Committee a standing in the Assembly that each and every one of the 108 Members should be extremely proud of.”
“We, as a Committee, understand the value of a lessons-learnt approach and aim to be constructive in our findings and reports. Rather than merely pointing the finger and saying that we do not want to see x, y or z happening again, we make recommendations that offer guidance in order to avoid a repeat occurrence in the future. The Public Accounts Committee has never criticised any Department for following through on what it planned to do, even when that did not have the result that it might have wanted. It is simply when Departments or arm's-length bodies do not follow their own plan that the criticism arises. <BR /> <BR />The Committee expects these recommendations to be accepted and implemented as quickly as possible.”
“Since the last take-note debate, the PAC has published a total of six inquiries with memorandums of reply. These published reports have included a wide range of issues, including complex investigations whose subject matter has gone back a number of years and taken some time to complete. Indeed, some of them consumed an awful lot of time. <BR /> <BR />More than ever, the PAC's role is vital in ensuring that public money is used in the most efficient way possible so as to ensure that the greatest value is achieved for every pound that is spent from the public purse. We continue, with the help of the Audit Office in its reports, to focus our powers on the Departments and other public bodies that we believe have tapped into the public purse unwisely, and seek to bring them to account.”
“I thank Mr Jack Layberry, the former Treasury Officer of Accounts. In particular, I highlight his work with the Committee in drafting a memorandum of understanding protocol during his time in post, which has now been agreed between the Committee and the Minister. The Minister has acknowledged that, so we are at one in that regard. I also welcome Alison Caldwell, who has taken up this post. I look forward to working with her in her new role over the next few months. <BR /> <BR />The Committee has seen a number of changes in its membership over the past 12 months. I thank departing Members for their contribution and commitment to the work undertaken by the Committee. I also welcome new Members and look forward to working with them as we move towards the end of this mandate.”
“We recognise that you have to have a working relationship with your colleagues in all Departments.”
“Members referred to several projects in which that was the case, and it is only fair and reasonable that the Public Accounts Committee's work, in harmony with the Audit Office, was entirely justified. The independence of the Audit Office and the Public Accounts Committee is critical for the future. A previous Minister suggested that the Department of Finance and Personnel might subsume the Audit Office. That would be an absolute tragedy, because its independence is vital in ensuring that scrutiny is truly independent. <BR /> <BR />I listened very carefully to the Minister. Her contribution was positive. She will find that the Public Accounts Committee works closely with the Departments. It is fair to point out that we will retain our independence in every respect.”
“There is no excuse for them not being so, and no one on the Public Accounts Committee, irrespective of their political party, would disagree. <BR /> <BR />The PAC will continue to make strident and robust recommendations, particularly when controls have broken down and there is a lack of adherence to standards and ethics. The Committee will pursue the implementation of the recommendations until it is satisfied that suitable measures have been taken to ensure that lessons have been well and truly learned. Dolores Kelly referred to that, and we have an understanding from the Minister that a follow-up will be a critical part of that. <BR /> <BR />This is not the first time that we have found that poor management has cost the taxpayer vast sums of money.”
“<BR /> <BR />Members raised the point that, very often, when bad practice is discovered — I am thinking in particular of the Fire Authority for Northern Ireland, which is now the Fire and Rescue Service Board — nobody is ever made amenable. There have been various PSNI reports into aspects of government work, and nothing ever happens. That will need to be addressed. <BR /> <BR />It may be that, in the glory days, when public money was in great abundance, you just dismissed these things and wrote them off, with an accounting officer being moved to another Department or even elevated to a House higher than this one. Today, every penny needs to be accounted for, and people who sign off on projects of any kind need to be made amenable.”
“Never was that more relevant than today, with all the effects of austerity cuts and ordinary people's difficulties in making ends meet. <BR /> <BR />I hope that, in the wider community, there is a recognition that the Public Accounts Committee has an enormous role to play in the Assembly, whoever is serving on it. Like everything else, it will have to change. Reference was made to the structure of the Public Accounts Committee. There may be a desire to make it more representative to give the opposition, if such a thing exists, a more important role in scrutinising the Government's work. I look forward to that from a distance.”
“That was a cross-border project and, if something positive can be got out of that, it is the fact that the Public Accounts Committees in Dublin and here in Belfast worked together extremely well to produce an agreed report. That, I think, is to the credit of the members of both Committees, North and South. <BR /> <BR />The Minister said that there was a fear of reports, and I am sorry about that. She claimed that reports are sometimes not representative of the high standards of service. I hope that I have consoled the Minister by accepting the fact that there are excellent examples of good service. At all times, the Public Accounts Committee will identify those and comment on them. However, the cases involving Bytel, the Events Company and others are not examples of best practice.”
“<BR /> <BR />Trevor Clarke referred to the cost of prescriptions, generic drugs and so on. He is absolutely right; there are, potentially, millions of pounds to be saved there. <BR /> <BR />Jim Wells could not resist referring to previous Committee members as Rottweilers. I do not think that I got that term; Seamus Close did. However, one of the reports that came before us recently was on the Northern Ireland Events Company, which was an absolute scandal. We have been criticised for publishing reports too quickly, but that issue is about seven years old and, at this stage, I am not sure what may happen. <BR /> <BR />Mr Flanagan, who has left us at this point, spoke on Bytel.”
“I have no doubt that fundamental changes in that have taken place. It often intrigued me that the Courts Service insisted on cash when every Department is advising people not to keep cash. So there you have it. <BR /> <BR />Dolores Kelly mentioned the monitoring and evaluation of reports, which was, rightly, picked up on by the Minister. We welcome the undertakings that have been given. <BR /> <BR />Roy Beggs spoke on the issue of protecting funds held for vulnerable people by the courts. It may be interesting to hear that that particular aspect of government was last revised in 1935, so there is really every justification for the Public Accounts Committee to be interested in that. Again, the Minister acknowledged that vast improvements have taken place, which, of course, is exactly what the Public Accounts Committee is about.”
“<BR /> <BR />Obviously, Belfast Metropolitan College was mentioned, and rightly so. We do that because we expect lessons to be learned. We expect a strategic review to take place and mistakes of the past to be avoided. That point was made very well by Jim Wells, who reminded me that he had been on the Committee previously and rejoined it. He was quite upset to find that the bad practice of the bad old days was still being repeated, and that is one of our major concerns. <BR /> <BR />Paul Girvan was concerned about the way in which the Northern Ireland Courts and Tribunals Service collects fines. I am sure that the public would be absolutely horrified to learn that people have been taken to court, fined, and the fines are either not collected or, if they are, never get back to where they belonged.”
“In fact, the only broadsides that I have heard were just now from Mr Allister on the Bytel project. <BR /> <BR />The Chairperson of the Committee, Michaela Boyle, opened the debate by emphasising the independence of the Public Accounts Committee. She also pointed out that we do not lambaste and criticise every Department on every occasion, but have, in fact, singled out exemplar material. Indeed, on one occasion, we went to a primary school in Coleraine where we felt the best examples of addressing literacy, numeracy and absenteeism were to be found. That was Millburn Primary school. I know that other neighbouring schools in socially deprived areas of that town have also done outstanding work, and we recognised that. There are many other examples of the Public Accounts Committee recognising good practice, so it is not all negative.”
“May I just point out that I am the longest serving member of the Committee, having probably been on it for 14 or 15 years or more, and we have never had any kind of inter-party rows. I think that is where the Public Accounts Committee stands head and shoulders above what might happen in some other Committees. I commend all of the members of the current Public Accounts Committee and previous ones for their service and how they endeavour to do that.”
“Does it not break the Minister's heart that he has been responsible for reducing funding to the universities at a time when the whole world is telling us that the only way that we can create jobs for people who are travelling to the four corners of the world to find work, because the work is not at home, and the very thing that would be the driver to create the jobs has been starved of the oxygen of life in Coleraine and Derry in particular?”
“As a mere Deputy Speaker in this august body, may I ask Mrs Cochrane if she agrees that it is always rewarding when you manage to get all political parties involved and leave an event open so that all members of staff can attend?”
“The Minister will, of course, be aware that libraries in Ireland have a very rich tradition. Following the famine, they were instrumental in giving people an opportunity to learn to read and write. She will also be aware that, today, a quarter of a million people in Northern Ireland cannot read or write. Given that there are additional resources, will the Minister review her approach to libraries and give them the sustainability that they need to address the needs of our people, whether they are having problems with literacy and numeracy or are simply reading for enjoyment?”
“I thank the Minister for her answer. I am sure that she would agree with me that, while a second entrance to the former army camp is of critical importance, far more important is what will happen on the remainder of the 900-acre site and whether there is the infrastructure to attract inward investment and, in the words of locals, attract hundreds, if not thousands, of new jobs. That is really what east Derry wants.”
“I thank the Minister for his sincerity in appreciating just how important social housing is. Given that housing associations have been with us now for more than 20 years and are a mixed bag — some of them are good, while some of them have come before the Public Accounts Committee for all the wrong reasons — is the Minister of a mind to consider giving the Housing Executive responsibility for providing some social housing in the future?”
“I thank the Minister for his answers and, of course, like everyone else in the House, wish him all the best for the future, particularly in good health. <BR /> <BR />The Minister will agree with me that those involved in hate crimes are not really bothered about strategies or plans or all the other things that we get involved in, but they might well understand a change in the hate laws that would make it very clear that those who get involved in that kind of criminal activity will spend a long time behind bars, while the wider community, particularly the minority communities, are safe. What is the Minister's view on changing the hate laws?”
“I will do my best not to meander beyond Cullybackey. I thank the Minister for her continued interest in the Belfast to Derry railway and I congratulate her on taking that epic journey from Belfast to Bellarena recently to see the new passing loop. That was brilliant. <BR /> <BR />The Cullybackey park-and-ride facility is essential, but will the Minister assure me that no discussions are taking place about the future of the Knockmore line, which is mothballed. I heard a rather nasty rumour at the weekend that they are considering making it into yet another greenway. Can the Minister dispel that rumour?”
“I listened carefully to the Minister. On this day of glad tidings and great joy for the future of the Assembly, will he now consider looking seriously at legal aid with regard to family law and those matters where people have been profoundly affected by the recent scarcity of resources?”
“I know that the Member is new to the Assembly, so I need to put on record that we did, in fact, go and see that wonderful new motorway, which cost, I think, £140 million for 14·5 miles. I did not see a lot of traffic on it, but I did admire the bypass round six houses. I said to myself, "My God, if the people of Dungiven see this, they will go bananas".”
“We need more miracles, but it will take more than prayer. It will take the determination of the Assembly, pulling in the same direction and setting in motion a plan and strategy over several years to ensure that the renewal and development of roads and railways really happens. All of us in every party can be part of that success. If we do nothing, the north-west will never catch up, and that is not in the interests of everyone. <BR /> <BR />In conclusion, I ask all Members of the Assembly to unite before the motion and demonstrate to the outside world that, as an Assembly, we can and will make this place work.”
“See the transformation that has taken place and experience how it is to travel from Galway to Dublin without seeing a single set of traffic lights. Indeed, I understand that you can now travel the whole way from Galway to Belfast without seeing a set of traffic lights. <BR /> <BR />Let us be positive and build on the obvious successes that have happened in recent years. Let us do it together, because, as I said, if Northern Ireland is to be economically successful, all areas must rise on the tide of success. Investment in new trains created the miracle that is now the Belfast to Derry railway, carrying more passengers than the highly successful Belfast to Dublin Enterprise.”
“Today, Ljubljana is an important transport hub. There is no reason that Derry and the north-west cannot enjoy the same success as a modern economic entity. That must, of course, include road rail, air and sea transport. However, the area needs investment, and that investment needs to be prioritised, in recognition of the historical events that prevented it from getting the investment that it needed to progress and be taken out of the category of "area with the highest unemployment and social deprivation". It can and will happen, and the Assembly can make it happen if there is a will and a way. <BR /> <BR />We do not have to go to Slovenia. Travel to Galway and see living proof of what happens when money is invested in transport infrastructure.”
“<BR /> <BR />Some time ago, when I was stuck in a traffic jam on the way from the airport to Nairobi, the capital of Kenya, I said to myself, "Am I back home? Is this the daily traffic jam at Moneynick on the A6?". It really was home from home, but Kenya is a Third World country experiencing economic and political problems on a scale much worse than we have had to live with. <BR /> <BR />Other countries have faced much more formidable challenges to modernise and upgrade transport infrastructure than we have, including emerging economies in the expanded European Union. Take Slovenia, for example, which, within a few short years of independence, created a new road and rail infrastructure second to none, including massive tunnels that linked the country with neighbouring countries that it does business with.”
“<BR /> <BR />The A5 project has been on the books for many years, but not as long as the A6 project, and especially the bypass at Dungiven, which I believe is now in its fiftieth year of planning in one shape or another. I ask myself this question: for how much longer can this go on? How much longer can the people of that town tolerate the pollution, congestion and road safety issues that they live with day and daily? However, the bypass is only part of the issue. Day and daily, sections of the existing roadway are little more than an elongated car park, where traffic is brought to a standstill as vehicles filter into the queues at various junctions in the struggle to get to Belfast and beyond.”
“Road is critical, and, here, the two major projects that have dominated modern thinking are the A5 and A6, which are the main arteries to allow the free flow of people and goods to the various outlets on this island. The A5 is, of course, a joint project with the Government of the Republic, and I am delighted that it is dominating the current talks between the British and Irish Governments, as well as our own Assembly. I have confidence that those projects will happen, but time is not on our side. It is highly regrettable that the A5 is not well on the way to completion in order to enhance the north-west and make it a more attractive place to invest in, allowing it to expand and become a truly vibrant section of a thriving economy.”
“That work is progressing and should encourage us to keep our hand on the tiller in what I believe has been the most exciting period in the development of rail transport over the past 100 years. When finished, the Belfast to Derry railway will be able to offer an hourly service between our two great cities, and that will be a major factor in enticing potential inward investors to locate in the North and in the north-west. It also fulfils the dream that that railway will, in the future, become part of an all-island rail network, as I believe that it will when the Antrim to Portadown section is reopened, enabling a more direct route to Dublin and the rest of Ireland. <BR /> <BR />However, rail is only a small part of the renaissance of transport in modern times.”
“Already we can measure the success of investment in the Belfast area railway, which is increasingly bringing prosperity, not just to Derry and beyond, but to the towns that the railway travels through. A few years ago, senior civil servants, egged on by direct rule Ministers, recommended the closure of the railway north of Ballymena. They almost got their way. Recently, the Assembly invested £46 million to complete the third phase of the improvements, critical to making the railway the success that I believe it will be.”
“The option open to us as an Assembly, therefore, is to address the infrastructural issues, which are clearly identified as labelling a region as economically and socially disadvantaged. There is clear evidence that if transport infrastructure issues are tackled we can begin to address the causes of deprivation. <BR /> <BR />In the north-west, as I said at the beginning of my speech, the critical issue is the availability of decent road infrastructure to keep costs down when moving people, goods and, indeed, services from the regions to the centre of commercial activity and the ports. We have had some success in recent years in rail transport, which constitutes a small but critical part of our transport infrastructure.”
“While that enabled financial deadlines to be met to spend money, it did not address long-standing need. Indeed, the shovel-ready approach, I believe, compounded the problem of regional inequality in relation to road infrastructure, in particular. <BR /> <BR />Allow me to move on. Increasingly it is argued that Northern Ireland must become more focused on generating its own economic activity. I agree. I also accept that potential inward investors cannot be compelled to locate their industries in one particular area because it is economically and socially disadvantaged. That happened in the past, but, all too often, when the grants ran out the projects folded and the entrepreneurs moved on to another economically deprived part of the world.”
“The north-west — indeed, the west in general — is less attractive to potential inward investors because of the poor transport infrastructure, which is a legacy issue that can never be fully addressed by yearly allocations from the Executive to the Departments responsible for capital investment in roads, railways, airports and, in the case of the north-west, the ferry service between Magilligan and Greencastle, which, I believe, should be the joint responsibility of the two Governments. <BR /> <BR />Those issues merit special attention and the collaborative support of the British and Irish Governments and the European Union. Above all, the issues require Members to look outside their immediate territory, irrespective of which party they belong to. In recent years, projects described as "shovel-ready" tended to be successful.”
“I am grateful for the opportunity to bring this motion to the Assembly, and I welcome the new Minister for Regional Development. I appeal for cross-party support for what I believe is a non-contentious motion. <BR /> <BR />Northern Ireland has come a long way in the last few years. While political issues have dominated the Assembly, we in the SDLP believe that there is now an opportunity to begin the process of identifying the other issues that are preventing the whole region from rising on the tide of change.”
“I thank the Minister for his answers. I freely acknowledge that he is deeply committed to human rights and religious freedom. Can he tell the House on how many occasions he raised those issues with the Chinese Government?”
“I thank the Member for giving way. Does the Member agree that while this dark cloud hangs over Northern Ireland, we are limited in the progress that we can make in the peace process, which we are all involved in, and in the extent to which we are one community speaking with one voice and putting the past behind it?”
“I have listened very carefully to the Minister. He has made reference, twice, to further education colleges taking up the slack created by Ulster University abandoning courses in modern languages. Perhaps he might detail more elaborately what consultation and discussions he has had with the colleges of further education and what additional resources he is making available to them. Finally, I will squeeze in another question. Has he had any discussions with the Minister of Education on the knock-on effect that the abandonment of modern languages will have in our schools throughout Northern Ireland?”
“I thank the Minister for his answer. To get the question back on track, can the Minister indicate the yearly cost of consulting external bodies? I am not suggesting that consultation is not necessary; I would just like to have some indication of the cost to his Department.”
“I thank the Minister for his statement. Of course, he will not have been entirely surprised by this damning report, as I wrote to him on several occasions, asking him to hear the account of an officer who could have written the report single-handedly. Will he now agree to hear at first hand the account of an individual who was bullied, beaten up and left a broken man because he wanted to do his job honestly and fairly and refused to be part of the regime that brought about in a big way this awful report?”
“I pay tribute to the rural development programme for the work that has been done. Will the Minister agree that the needs and aspirations of the rural community are far greater than to be described in sectarian headcount terms? Will she outline how the business communities, Protestant and Catholic, if we have to use those terms, will benefit from the rural development programme between now and 2020?”
“I have listened very carefully to the Minister, and I congratulate the Housing Executive on the work that it has done. Does the Minister agree, however, that very often time is not on the side of the people who need the disability facilities grants, many of whom may be bed-blocking in hospitals? How does the Minister propose to clear the waiting list so that those people are not in long queues that they cannot afford to be in?”
“I thank the Minister for what I think is a very honest answer. Does he agree with me that there has never been a greater yearning to face a future that embraces everybody and leaves behind a past that failed everybody? Does he have the resources to be part of that? Is he on board?”
“Does he recognise the wonderful work of Women's Aid, and has he sought its advice on putting together a strategy that might well address a very serious problem that, for most of the time, is kept quiet and under the carpet?”
“I have listened very carefully to the Minister from this gathering of exclusively male political intellectuals. I just wonder whether he accepts that the vast majority of domestic violence cases are against women?”
“I welcome the Minister's response to the question. She will realise that there is a lot of anxiety whether this project will go ahead. Is the Minister certain that the environmental assessment has been carried out, that all issues relating to decontamination, given that this is a former army site, are cleared and that, in the future, we will not be embarrassed by any hold-ups?”
“I thank the Minister for her reply. The Minister said that it is a unique situation. I am sure that she would agree with me that it is a total disaster for many of our farmers. Do they really have to wait until January to get their money?”
“The Minister said that universities have autonomy, but surely he, as Minister, has a greater responsibility to ensure that the equality issues and the economy of the areas where the universities exist are of paramount importance. Will he explain to the House — for goodness' sake — what the rationale is in bringing Project Kelvin in at Portrush, allegedly to create thousands of new jobs, when, at the same time, the department of business studies is virtually closing?”
“<BR /> <BR />A few years ago, when the Travellers were in Kilrea for a prolonged period, I had the privilege of meeting them to share their culture, music and storytelling, and their desire to end their continual struggle to survive and make ends meet, so I am pleased that the Assembly has found the time today to pay tribute to the 10 people, young and old, who lost their lives. <BR /> <BR />Without wishing to repeat myself, I hope that, as we watch the funerals, everyone in the wider community will develop a better understanding of how we can be part of a new era in which the Travelling community will have equality and their rights perhaps better respected so that this kind of tragedy might not happen.”