John Dallat
East Londonderry · Social Democratic and Labour Party · Northern Ireland
“His and Donovan's contributions were invaluable. <BR /> <BR />I know that Alliance Members and others have spoken about Seamus Close, and I am conscious that his wife Deirdre is here today. Seamus Close was an amazing individual, and I had the pleasure of serving on the Public Accounts Committee with him.”
“<BR /> <BR />As you know, Mr Speaker — this will be of particular interest to you — Donovan was a Deputy Speaker, and he was a man of severe discipline. He did not suffer fools easily. On one occasion, there was a Member who was particularly troublesome in the morning. I reassure the existing parties that it was not one of their members.”
“I know other Members appreciated it equally. <BR /> <BR />I could not resume my seat without making reference to Reverend Robert Coulter — Bob, as he allowed me to call him. He was an incredible person who had a vision for the future of the Assembly that went far beyond simply winning the next election.”
“I was in the privileged position of being a member of Coleraine council for over 30 years, and, if I was asked to highlight one of the greatest events I experienced during that time, I would say that it was meeting Harry Gregg. I am not into sport big time, but I am into sporting people who have made a huge contribution to this world.”
“Donovan McClelland was a lecturer in the University of Ulster. Life could have been very comfortable for him, but he did not choose that. He contributed to the peace process that eventually became the Good Friday Agreement and, in doing that, he brought himself danger.”
“I welcome the Minister's responses so far. The average age of people in the northern region is very high. I am not sure whether the Minister knows how many passed away before adaptations were completed or shortly afterwards.”
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“— the Government acted. The Government gave in. I hope that we do not have to take to the streets to ensure that the post office remains. <BR /> <BR />I know that I am pushed for time, but since there was not an awful lot —”
“I will finish with this. Recently, I was in Hungary and saw 40,000 people marching, and it scared the wits out of me. What were they marching for? They were campaigning against tax on the Internet: a simple, everyday issue. They appeared on the second day with 50,000 people, and by the next day —”
“We should learn from experience that we should make our voice known.”
“Please do not allow the post office to go down the same route as the bank without intervention. <BR /> <BR />We are largely a rural community, and many of our urban communities are in socially deprived areas where there is a sub-branch of the post office where people can do their business, avail themselves of its benefits and whatever. Can you imagine if there was a further culling of post offices and the cost that there would be to ordinary working-class people to have to go into town centres to do their business? I hope that all Members, including those not in the Chamber this evening — I accept that they probably have very good reasons for not being here — feel that the debate this afternoon stimulates an urgency because we cannot sit on our hands, we cannot daydream, and we cannot sleep if we are going to ignore this issue.”
“They have endeavoured to be flexible and innovative to ensure that the service is not eventually flogged off to rich Tories who want to control transport and public utilities, which should remain in public service. <BR /> <BR />The post office, to me, is the last of the utilities that we can save. I picked up on an intervention from George Robinson that the new local authority should support the post office, but let us start at home. The Assembly has not been particularly good at supporting the post office and has not availed itself of it as a means of distributing its information, leaflets and all the things that the public need to find out about. I appeal to the 11 or 12 Departments today to get serious about this, put your money where your mouth is and start helping to save the post office from annihilation.”
“The post office that we have today would not exist had it not been for local people getting the message out loud and clear that we are not going to go down the road of 60% of medium-sized towns and villages in England where there is no post office and no bank. Northern Ireland cannot afford that. <BR /> <BR />The people of Northern Ireland have been loyal to the post office and have continued to support it; 70% of our population will visit a post office at least once a week. Post offices are a lifeline for many of our communities, and they have adapted: you find them now in pharmacies, supermarkets and other places that remain open at night. I pay tribute to those in charge of the post office network.”
“That is what I get for drawing the Deputy Speaker's attention to the fact that we are not quorate, but, to be honest, I am not sorry for doing it. <BR /> <BR />Other Members referred to the number of banks queuing up to close their branches. The most recent was the Ulster Bank, which closed the last bank in Portstewart, which is one of our premier seaside resorts. A lot of elderly people purposely retired there, and they will now have to bus it to Coleraine, where, I know, the bank will end up as nothing more than a showroom. <BR /> <BR />We are very lucky in this part of the country. I will give credit to the Assembly because, in the past, we stood up for the post office. In fact, one of the first pluses for this Assembly was to set up a pilot scheme promoting a one-stop shop. That was tested out in Coleraine many years ago.”
“It is a feature of modern democracy that people make their voices heard. <BR /> <BR />I am not foolish enough to suggest that the Post Office of today is as vital for communication as it was in the 1840s. It would be even more foolish for us not to recognise the importance of its continued contribution to local communities, local business and the local economy.”
“Once again, I am delighted to take the opportunity to speak in support of our post office network. In the past, I stood in the Chamber and spoke of my admiration for postal services and its storied history of penny black stamps, dangerous highwaymen and rumbling carriages roaring through the countryside to deliver. I spoke of how crucial it is for the Assembly to recognise our continuing need for a universal postal service, and I called on the Executive to ensure the viability of our local network by protecting it from Tory interference. Today, I reiterate that call. <BR /> <BR />Mr Deputy Speaker, I will not draw your attention to the fact that we are not quorate at the moment, but I say this to all 108 Assembly Members: anything that we get in Northern Ireland, we have to fight for.”
“Surely that is bound to make some contribution to reducing the 20% rates of illiteracy and innumeracy that we are struggling with. <BR /> <BR />I am extremely proud to stand here and commend the report, and I rebut any of the criticism that was made of the Public Accounts Committee or the Audit Office. The Assembly should be extremely proud of those from all political parties who are part of the PAC.”
“It is a wonderful building and is an excellent part of the infrastructure of Belfast, and PAC members acknowledge that. However, the highest tender in the process became the successful tender, and accounts could not be produced. Indeed, when the PAC began to ask questions about that, we had extreme difficulty in finding witnesses, and it took months to get them before the PAC, which was not particularly satisfactory. <BR /> <BR />I will finish by mentioning attendance at schools. The Public Accounts Committee went out to schools that were good examples. We were all proud to go to schools in socially deprived areas, where the odds were stacked against them. Those schools found ways to improve school attendance and to give children who were from, let us say, difficult backgrounds a chance.”
“Mr Wilson, who is not here now, talked about invoice slicing. I want to make it perfectly clear that invoice slicing is not acceptable in any case. He seems to think that we could promote invoice slicing as it helps small and medium-sized enterprises. Invoice slicing can be an indicator of fraud, and I suspect that in many cases it is. So I make no apology for saying that the PAC takes a zero-tolerance policy towards fraud and cannot condone practices that are conducive to fraud. Invoice slicing is also totally at odds with public procurement, and there are strict rules on public procurement that we cannot ignore at national or European Union levels. <BR /> <BR />Many other people spoke in the debate, and I am sorry that I do not have the same amount of time as the Minister to respond. The Lyric Theatre got a hearing.”
“The report highlights the fact that Departments need to maintain strong oversight of their arm's-length bodies to ensure that value for money is obtained in all cases.”
“It is interesting that people come from all over the world to the Northern Ireland Audit Office to get advice and training in how to put financial affairs in place. Many travel from parts of the world that had no accountability in the past. <BR /> <BR />Our Chairperson, Michaela Boyle, began the debate by talking about the Agri-Food and Biosciences Institute, the largest arm's-length body of the Department of Agriculture and Rural Development. She highlighted the fact that there was poor oversight by the Department and that alarmingly high estate costs had not been tackled. She also spoke of poor management of the charging fees, with £3·5 million in income being lost, which is a tidy little sum if you were looking for it.”
“Evidence of the success of the Committee's work can be seen in the high levels of acceptance of its recommendations. During the year, 85% of recommendations were accepted, and although slightly down on last year's 87%, is still extremely high. <BR /> <BR />As Deputy Chair, I was pleased to see greater partnerships developing between Departments and the PAC during the year, in particular between the Committee and the Department of Finance and Personnel. The Minister made reference to that crucial meeting between the Chairman, me and his Department. I can assure the House that while there is a better understanding, there was no compromise. <BR /> <BR />The work of the PAC is supported greatly by the Northern Ireland Audit Office and I cannot thank enough the people who work there for their help throughout the year.”
“<BR /> <BR />The PAC's key role is to ensure that public money is used efficiently and effectively and that maximum value is extracted from each pound. This role is of even greater importance in the current economic climate given the significant budgetary pressures facing the Executive. <BR /> <BR />The PAC focuses on high-value cases where significant savings to the public purse can be made. The Committee always seeks to be constructive in its reports — I hope you are listening, Minister. Rather than merely pointing the finger and saying that we do not want to see x, y or z happening again, we make recommendations that offer guidance about what changes need to be made to avoid mistakes being repeated a number of years down the line.”
“I hope that we have given the Assembly, and the wider public, a good snapshot of the work of the Public Accounts Committee. This has been another productive year for the Committee, with eight reports published. These included large and complex investigations, which took time to complete, such as the inquiry into the PSNI's use of agency staff, which three of my fellow Committee members spoke on. <BR /> <BR />Completing these complex inquiries requires a great deal of commitment and cooperation on the part of the members of the Committee. I commend my colleagues on their work this year. Any inquiry into the Police Service could have created problems. Members rose above party positions and, I think, produced a commendable report.”
“When our report was issued in October 2013, there were 22 outstanding grievance cases, mainly in headquarters. Surely, that should have set the alarm bells ringing all over the place but it did not. It was clear to us that that situation could not continue. The Department of Health, Social Services and Public Safety and the Department of Finance and Personnel graciously accepted nine of the 11 recommendations — not bad for a Committee that gets so many brickbats. <BR /> <BR />The Committee wants to see the Department, the board and senior management work together to move the Fire Service to a position where its main focus can be on improving performance rather than dealing with the legacy of mismanagement. <BR /> <BR />I thank all Members who contributed to what has been an interesting and informative discussion.”
“<BR /> <BR />In 2001 — this is important for other Members — the Public Accounts Committee reported on the Fire Service’s predecessor body, the Fire Authority for Northern Ireland. This was an extremely critical and hard-hitting report, and it is shocking that many of the recommendations arose again in our most recent investigation of the new body. I doubt that any Member, including Mr Wilson, would be brave enough to defend a situation in which an organisation was reported on and then, several years later, it was found that those recommendations were ignored and that the work of that organisation had been set back. <BR /> <BR />The Committee was appalled to hear evidence of the toxic working environment in the Fire Service's headquarters.”
“<BR /> <BR />It was clear to others, including the Chief Fire Officer at the time, that this sponsorship deal would create a perception of wrongdoing that was likely to be extremely damaging to the Fire Service. The Committee considers that the actions of this officer demonstrated a lack of understanding of the responsibilities of an accounting officer and the standard of conduct expected of someone in that role. DFP has not accepted the Committee’s recommendation in this area, distinguishing instead between potential and ongoing commercial relationships. The Committee is clear that any recurrence of conflicts of interest of this nature in the Fire Service or elsewhere in the public sector will not be acceptable.”
“One case that particularly concerned the Committee was the acceptance by a senior officer of a sponsored Land Rover. I hope that I am not advertising one particular company, although I accept that they are very nice vehicles. That certainly did not do anything for the image of the Northern Ireland Fire Service. We accept that there was no evidence of personal gain, but the Committee found it worrying that this individual, who went on to become Chief Fire Officer before his retirement, maintained that accepting the vehicle was the right thing to do. The one thing that surely should be there is the ability to accept when something is wrong.”
“<BR /> <BR />The Committee found that the board in place at the time that these events occurred was extremely weak and had failed to challenge senior management. The Department of Health, Social Services and Public Safety accepted the Committee's recommendations to strengthen the board; address areas of weakness; and improve its oversight by ensuring that its own team has the necessary skills and seniority to properly challenge senior management in the Fire Service. I hope that that comes as comfort to our very courageous and brave firefighters who, for many years, have been at the forefront during our difficulties. <BR /> <BR />The Committee considered a number of cases in which very senior officers in the Fire Service failed to recognise and properly handle significant conflicts of interest in procurement and recruitment.”
“I was pleased that the Minister referred to that. <BR /> <BR />The Department’s oversight of the Fire Service was poor. It failed to intervene to address either the extremely high turnover at senior management level or lengthy absences of key members of staff. The Committee found that proper succession planning had been ignored for too long. We were pleased to note that the Department of Health, Social Services and Public Safety accepted our recommendation that it, the board and senior management work together to identify barriers to recruitment and to ensure that the organisation is well placed to attract quality internal and external candidates for future senior management vacancies.”
“The Committee discovered that the Department of Health, Social Services and Public Safety's accounting officer and the chair of the Fire Service were aware that a whistle-blower had been suspended and that they should have been alert to possible victimisation. Instead, both wrongly decided not to intervene. The Committee recommended that when a Department asks one of its arms-length bodies to investigate a whistle-blower's concerns, the Department has to ensure that there is a proper investigation. Where the whistle-blowing allegations relate to senior members of staff in the body concerned, the Department must retain ownership of the investigation. DFP has accepted the Committee’s recommendations in this area, and we expect to see improvements in the handling of whistle-blowing right across the public sector.”
“The Finance Minister will know this better than anyone: never has there been a more serious time for ensuring that every penny of public money is accounted for, both in where it goes and the value for money got from it. <BR /> <BR />The Northern Ireland Fire and Rescue Service was mentioned on a number of occasions, particularly by Anna Lo, who is not a member of the Committee but, obviously, is well-informed. That report touched the hearts of all members, particularly in relation to the disgraceful way in which Linda Ford was treated as a whistle-blower. It aggrieves me that the chairman of the Northern Ireland fire authority who presided over most of that is still in place.”
“I assure the Minister that he has not left me shell-shocked, but he has come pretty close to it. I will deal with some of the issues that he raised. I was pleased that he started on a positive note by paying tribute to the Audit Office and the Public Accounts Committee. I believe that the Assembly as a whole and all parties involved can be proud that they have a Public Accounts Committee and an independent Audit Office that can rise above party politics and all the quagmires that we have to deal with. I say that on a personal basis; I have no authority from anyone else. I include all the members of the Committee in that. We have done our best to ensure that the public get value for money.”
“The Minister has just alluded to the question I was going to ask. He represents a border area where there have been appalling abuses of the road traffic laws by a small number of people on both sides of the border. Is the Minister satisfied that the level of cooperation between an Garda Síochána and the PSNI is sufficient to identify the people who have contributed so much to the heartache of families who, at times, have had multiple members wiped out by, largely, speeding offences, but by other traffic offences as well?”
“I desperately want to bring a bit of good news to the Chamber this afternoon. I inform the Minister that I was on the Belfast to Derry train on Saturday, and it was packed to capacity in both directions. Many of the passengers whom I spoke to were from the Republic. Will the Minister assure the House that, in cooperation with the Republic's Government, everything is being done to source European funding to help to rebuild the infrastructure of the permanent way and the railway stations, particularly the station in Derry?”
“The Minister knows fine well that, for months, the elected representatives were treated like mushrooms and kept in the dark about the postponement of the contract. Will he give us some good news today? I take it that he is giving us a promise that the contract will go ahead at the third attempt. Does he have any other good news about the north-west that he might tell the Assembly?”
“The Minister will know that my constituency straddles two health trust areas. He will also know that, last week, the health trust and the Western Board had the courage to say that they got it wrong in Omagh. Will the Minister now ensure that the Northern Trust has the decency to say that it got it wrong in Ballycastle? Will the Minister live up to the words of his colleague David McIlveen, who addressed a meeting in Cushendall last week, and do the honourable thing? Will he tell them to say sorry and change their mind?”
“I thank the Minister for his answer, and I commend him for the strenuous efforts that he has made to alleviate the plight of those wonderful people in Coleraine. I have to say, though, in my supplementary question that I am extremely disappointed that he has not been able to report greater cooperation from other Departments. Can the Minister update us on the situation not only with the jobs but with the services? My indication is that there are horrendous problems.”
“I thank the Minister for his answer. He made reference to Limavady, which of course is only one of two councils that have switched from nationalist control to unionist control. Could the call-in procedure be used on the decision by the Causeway Coast and Glens Council to defer a decision to develop leisure facilities in Dungiven? That caused huge controversy.”
“I am trying to get my head round all of this. The Minister tells us that production might well increase over the next couple of years. What protection is given to workers who want to leave early and avail themselves of their redundancy payments and so on? Has the Minister got assurances from JTI that it will be flexible and will afford every opportunity to those employees to leave early, if they so wish, if another job is available, and that they will not lose the perks they have worked hard for over the years?”
“Let me put on record my acknowledgement of the contribution that the Minister has made to there still being a railway line between Coleraine and Derry. That said, there might be some excuse for botching a procurement procedure once, but surely doing it twice is inexcusable. What has the Minister to say about the future of Translink and its motley board being in charge of an intercity rail service?”
“I do not intend to chastise the Minister for the gross errors of the Northern Ireland Tourist Board, but will she accept that she now has a responsibility to give leadership and guidance to the organisers of events such as the Milk Cup, the North West 200, the Foyle Cup and so on, who have clearly been grossly let down by the Tourist Board, which apparently does not see beyond the Titanic centre?”
“I thank the Minister for her response. Given that this is a major element in the redevelopment of the Shackleton site, has she had any discussions with the Minister for Regional Development about establishing a railway point, which would clearly be of enormous benefit to so many people?”
“Is that a stark reminder that we need to sort out our political differences, North and South, so that we can develop an all-island economy that benefits both parts?”
“In a unique moment of inspiration during his statement, the Minister told us that our economy can never be:”
“I have had the honour and privilege of teaching in both parts of Ireland. Does the Minister agree that it is totally unacceptable in this day and age to have impediments placed in the way of the free movement of teachers between the Republic and Northern Ireland? Can he assure us that, by spring of next year, teachers, North and South, will be free to move?”
“When in this Assembly do you get opposition parties applauding a Minister from another party, and he rejects it?”
“Our Minister Danny Kennedy, who normally displays a high level of intelligence, has completely missed the point of the motion. Instead of opposing it, he should be enthusiastically endorsing it.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. Does he agree that the core element of the motion is that the stop-start way of financing the Department is wrong?”
“No one expects the Minister to have the wisdom of Claudius, who conquered Britain — we certainly do not want him poisoned — but he needs the support of the Assembly to fundamentally change the way that we conduct our road maintenance. <BR /> <BR />Cutting corners on road maintenance to balance the books is only stacking up trouble for the future. As it stands, every road can expect to be resurfaced every 102 years on average. That is from departmental figures. Many roads are already undermined due to poor drainage. There is a massive bill every year for compensation for personal injuries and damage to vehicles. Road deaths are again on the up and up. People who did this work are on notice as we speak that they will be joining the unemployment register. We must not sit on our hands while our roads crumble under our feet.”
“Getting to a conclusion, I wish to return briefly to the Romans to clarify a point. The Romans were not the first race to build good roads. Much of the expertise was copied from previous races, and I ask this question: are we going to learn from the past, or will we be part of a new Dark Ages that allows good roads to decline to such a state that they cease to exist and are no more? Will a new generation at some time in the future rediscover them, just as the Roman roads were rediscovered and, indeed, built over? The current Minister deserves the support of the Assembly to put in place a system that avoids the stops and starts that contractors and workers have had to live with. It is fast getting to a situation where some of the contractors may well go to the wall.”
“I wonder, seriously, how long it takes to destroy a road through lack of maintenance. You do not have to take my word for it. The Department, from its own findings, will tell you that there are already serious problems building up that will eventually result in massive amounts of money being needed to be spent shoring up roads that are already undermined through lack of routine maintenance. Of course, money is not the whole issue. Yes, I know that most road deaths are caused by human error, but there is no doubt that poorly maintained roads contribute to death and serious injury, particularly during the winter months, when, as our Minister has already warned us, he may have to curtail expenditure.”
“The point I wish to make is this: whether there are issues relating to welfare reform or not, there is an urgent need to reform how road maintenance is planned and budgeted for. It is my wish that that is where the focus of this debate is concentrated, because we cannot go on depending on monitoring rounds to fund critical road maintenance. That is failing and building only a legacy of neglect that a future generation will have to pick up some time. That is very wrong. <BR /> <BR />Recently, our Minister said that it takes 20 years from inception to the completion of a new capital project. I know that the people of Dungiven will immediately reject that claim, given that they have been waiting 40 years for a bypass. Anyway, let us say that it takes on average 20 years to put the finishing touches of tarmacadam on a new road.”
“I seriously ask myself this question: are we now in another dark age when the current network of roads has been allowed to fall into disrepair to such an extent that some of them will become too dangerous to use? Anyone who reads Professor Snaith's report, which I referred to earlier, can reach no conclusion other than that we are sleepwalking into a future in which we will create a legacy of neglect that puts us on a par with those who allowed the wonderful Roman roads to become a legacy that no longer exists. <BR /> <BR />The motion is not simply about criticism of the shortfall in funding in road maintenance; it calls for a comprehensive annual budget process that provides for a more transparent breakdown of the allocation of resources.”
“In doing my research for the debate, I decided to go back in time to find out if things were done any better before the establishment of the Assembly, and my focus dwelled on the period of the Roman empire. Regrettably, the Romans did not get as far as this country to build their roads, which, in other parts of the world, have lasted for thousands of years. Yes, Principal Deputy Speaker, we had other visitors in the meantime: William and James came here, but they are remembered for crossing rivers, certainly not for building roads. Following the period of the Roman empire, many of the brilliant roads that they built disappeared during what some people might call the Dark Ages, when little or nothing was achieved; indeed, some roads were actually dug up.”
“Mr Kennedy concluded by warning us that he could not rule out curtailing winter services later this year. Certainly, Danny Kennedy was telling us that hundreds, even thousands, of people working in the various divisions of road maintenance and improvement would lose their job and that the companies that employed them would face potential bankruptcy because they would not have the regular income to make repayments on the new plant and machinery acquired in the expectation that they would have continuous work in the foreseeable future. <BR /> <BR />I will be surprised if there is no mention of welfare reform, but, before anyone gets carried away with that, I need to remind Members that our approach to road maintenance was fatally flawed long before the current Tory Government decided to rob the poor.”
“This, according to the Minister, would include such services as street lighting repairs, road maintenance, grass cutting, gully cleaning and the maintenance of traffic signs and road markings. He went on to say:”