John Dallat
East Londonderry · Social Democratic and Labour Party · Northern Ireland
“His and Donovan's contributions were invaluable. <BR /> <BR />I know that Alliance Members and others have spoken about Seamus Close, and I am conscious that his wife Deirdre is here today. Seamus Close was an amazing individual, and I had the pleasure of serving on the Public Accounts Committee with him.”
“<BR /> <BR />As you know, Mr Speaker — this will be of particular interest to you — Donovan was a Deputy Speaker, and he was a man of severe discipline. He did not suffer fools easily. On one occasion, there was a Member who was particularly troublesome in the morning. I reassure the existing parties that it was not one of their members.”
“I know other Members appreciated it equally. <BR /> <BR />I could not resume my seat without making reference to Reverend Robert Coulter — Bob, as he allowed me to call him. He was an incredible person who had a vision for the future of the Assembly that went far beyond simply winning the next election.”
“I was in the privileged position of being a member of Coleraine council for over 30 years, and, if I was asked to highlight one of the greatest events I experienced during that time, I would say that it was meeting Harry Gregg. I am not into sport big time, but I am into sporting people who have made a huge contribution to this world.”
“Donovan McClelland was a lecturer in the University of Ulster. Life could have been very comfortable for him, but he did not choose that. He contributed to the peace process that eventually became the Good Friday Agreement and, in doing that, he brought himself danger.”
“I welcome the Minister's responses so far. The average age of people in the northern region is very high. I am not sure whether the Minister knows how many passed away before adaptations were completed or shortly afterwards.”
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“I share the sentiments of the deputy First Minister. Sometimes, out of tragedy, something positive might emerge, and that would be the wider community's attitude to the Travelling community, which has been part of a special heritage for many years. Perhaps, as the Travelling community arranges the funerals of its loved ones, we can all reflect on how we look upon the Travelling community; become part of the campaign to ensure that Travellers' living conditions are improved, whether they are travelling or static; and seriously ask why their mortality rate is poor and why they share so badly in our education systems, North and South.”
“Will the Minister tell the House how he intends to make sure that shared education in the future is curriculum-based, so that we do not have continually to apologise for introducing it but can point to the fact that children are learning together and are not simply involved in some minor activities together?”
“Given that we are still a long way from the ultimate goal of being a united community, I would welcome the Minister outlining the benefits of the Together: Building a United Community programme.”
“It seems wrong that the credit unions have invested in banks, when, in fact, that money could be doing wonderful work out in the community, helping ordinary people, not simply to make ends meet but, as clause 6 indicates, by allowing them to become more involved in the wider community. <BR /> <BR />I think that, despite the background that we are in at the moment, this a good day for the Assembly. What we need to do now is ensure that the Bill becomes law before the end of this mandate so that the renaissance of one of the most wonderful organisations in this world, whether it be in Germany, where it began, Newfoundland, the United States, or here in Ireland, can carry forward to the next stage and that people are given the law and the tools to bring it forward.”
“It would be remiss of me not to mention Pat "The Cope" Gallagher — that wonderful man in west Donegal who inspired the cooperative movement and, I think, in many ways became a foundation stone for encouraging people throughout Ireland to look seriously at the credit union as simply an extension of that. <BR /> <BR />Today is a modern, new place, and things have to change. I am aware that many credit unions have substantially more money in savings than in loans. Certainly, in bygone days, as treasurer, I struggled to find enough money to make loans available. That seems to have changed. We need to find out why so many credit unions have up to 50% more in savings than they have out in loans. That is where the field officers and education officers could play a vital role.”
“While there may be two organisations representing the credit union movement in Northern Ireland — the Irish League of Credit Unions and the Ulster Federation of Credit Unions — I can say with pride, as someone who was associated with the Irish League, that it gave the Ulster Federation a lot of help, in its infancy, to establish itself. At the end of the day, the principles enshrined in both organisations are exactly the same. They both identify the cooperative movement as an organisation that has been extremely powerful down through the years, from the days of the gombeen men, who, I suppose, held people to ransom in many, many ways.”
“They respond to very enticing offers of loans, not realising that the interest rate could be as high as 3,000% or 4,000%. I believe that officers dedicated to going out into communities, working-class housing estates and rural communities in order to encourage people to come together to embrace the credit movement would be a very powerful weapon in diverting people from other means of borrowing, which, in fact, are simply plunging them further and further into debt. I plead with the Minister to consider that seriously and to acknowledge that it was done in Britain, many years ago, to some effect. <BR /> <BR />In conclusion, there was a reference to our current difficulties. The credit union movement is a unifying force.”
“I can foresee the availability of that money from the credit unions perhaps providing an opportunity to unlock other moneys from the Government and so on. Clause 6 acknowledges the very close relationship between the credit union movement and other organisations that, equally, sustain communities and help them to survive. <BR /> <BR />Someone referred to how government could help credit unions to develop by making available grants for improving their premises. I say to the Minister that there is another way in which government can help — it was done successfully in Britain a few years ago — and it is to make available grants to appoint field officers, because one of the big problems that we have is the lack of knowledge of and education on borrowing money. People simply do not know their consumer law.”
“<BR /> <BR />Allowing clubs and societies to become corporate members may not seem important, but it is, because, for a lifetime, the credit union movement has worked alongside clubs and societies and partnered them in an unofficial way in many projects. My goodness, what a change it could make if, for example, clause 6 were to become law and allow credit unions to make surplus money available not only for charitable groups but for social, cultural and, perhaps, social enterprise projects.”
“<BR /> <BR />I now come to the clauses. I immediately identify the move to reduce the age at which people can become directors from 18 to 16. The credit union movement's strength is its young people. It has gone into schools and has, with the cooperation of teachers and others, encouraged children, through their parents, to open accounts and, as they grow older, transfer those to adult accounts. That is important. <BR /> <BR />Increasing savings from £20,000 to £75,000 or £100,000 — I do not think that the figure is a big deal — is important. For many people today, £20,000 is not a lot of money. It is perhaps money that people have set aside for their funeral, for their partners after they depart this world and so on. I want that increase to happen.”
“Those people worked quietly, without a lot of public attention, to develop the credit unions that are so successful today. I acknowledge the work of the current Department and the Committee, which have taken the issue seriously. I hope against hope that the Bill will become law before the end of this mandate, because it is absolutely critical to a new set of challenges and circumstances that confront ordinary people. <BR /> <BR />When I joined the credit union, banks would not lend money to ordinary people. You had to live in a big house, have a farm, have collateral, have title deeds and all sorts of things. Ironically, banks will give money to virtually anybody today without any security checks at all, which is why we have this awful problem of people being in terrible debt to loan sharks, payday lenders and all sorts of people.”
“We need to be precise in all these things, and the Member is maybe justifying why he said the 1960s. <BR /> <BR />It is true that I first came into contact with the credit union movement in the 1960s when I met John Hume, not as a politician but as someone who was working to encourage the setting up of credit unions. My own credit union, of which I was the director and treasurer for 35 years, began in a suitcase and gravitated to a modern office fit for the president of Ireland to visit some years ago. My faith and confidence is in the credit union movement. I see the Bill as being an opportunity to bring the movement to a new stage in its development. <BR /> <BR />It would be remiss of me not to acknowledge the work of the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Investment and its various names down through the years.”
“I am pleased to take part in the debate. We have heard a little of the history of credit unions. Before I address the clauses, I remind Members that the credit union movement was founded in Germany in 1850 by two clergymen of the Reformed faith. The movement spread to Newfoundland, where fishermen adopted its principles so that they could buy their own boats. It gravitated to the United States, and, to correct Mr Flanagan, it came to Ireland in 1959.”
“Let us accept that there are historical reasons why the infrastructure is not there, and let us for goodness' sake demonstrate that, as an Assembly, we have the wisdom and the goodwill to support the council and, indeed, all the other wonderful organisations in the north-west and bring about the city deal, which is desperately needed to make Derry city an even better place than it is today.”
“<BR /> <BR />While the Assembly at the moment is perhaps not the best example, let us for goodness' sake in these days answer the call of that wonderful city, which was there long before Belfast was even a village. Let us answer the call. Let us give it the resources and the empowerment it needs. Let us give the local super-council the opportunity to demonstrate to the wider world that the reorganisation of local government was a good thing. Let us accept that, whatever the reasons, there is that huge deficit in the north-west. It should not be competing with projects in the greater Belfast area, because, if that is the case, Derry will never get the infrastructure it needs.”
“I know that there are some in the Chamber — I wish that there were more on the Benches opposite — who envy the successes of Derry, particularly the way that it has embraced the two cultures and shown how it is possible, twice a year and perhaps more often, to invite thousands of Orangemen to the city without a problem. If a city can do that, surely it is deserving of the best will of the British Government to empower Derry City and Strabane District Council to identify all the other things that will allow Derry city to become the city I believe it could. Yes, it endured the worst years of the Troubles. It has emerged out of them a better place, where people are comfortable with each other and have a common purpose of creating prosperity, enlightenment, security and happiness for everyone.”
“The reality is that deprivation and economic disparity in Derry continue to this day. That is a situation that, once again, was confirmed by the Heenan-Anderson report of 2015. Not surprisingly, that report recognises that the causes of poverty are structural and are based on the distribution of wealth, power and opportunities. That certainly echoes what has been the SDLP voice for many years.”
“We were told that there was no money, but the case was made, and of course it happened. Let us apply that principle to all the other things that are not present but are needed in the north-west. The A5 has been mentioned. Do not forget the A6. Anyone who has travelled between Belfast and Derry and has undertaken that arduous journey will know exactly what I am talking about, and I doubt that anyone would make an argument that there is no money. I encourage them to use that. <BR /> <BR />The city deal, provided it recognises and addresses the regional inequalities and disparities in Derry, will have a ripple effect, which I have talked about, and will benefit us all. The motion did not come here today for us to bemoan an imagined situation and retread a tale of two cities.”
“I am glad to take part in the debate today. While I do not represent the Foyle constituency, let me explain to the Members present that I believe that this is about more than Derry city because, when that city prospers, a very wide region will benefit from that on this side of the Foyle and Craigavon bridges but also in the Donegal hinterland, which was mentioned. God knows, east Derry might also benefit from it. In fact, I know that it will. <BR /> <BR />Let us be positive about this and dismiss the nonsense about having no money. That came from a Belfast MLA. There is a huge deficit here, and it needs to be addressed. A few years ago, a few of us took up the cudgels for the railways. That has been a success, and, with the £45 million invested in it, we will have a railway that is fit for purpose. The gas pipeline was a struggle, too.”
“I thank the Minister for his response. I am doing my best to interpret it as positive. Given that the Minister gave the Assembly an assurance that he was committed to Magilligan prison staying on its present site, will he tell the House what preparatory work has been done to give confidence to the 300 people who work there and the families of people who prefer their family members to be there rather than in that other place called Maghaberry?”
“I welcome the fact that we have a good-news story coming out of the Assembly today. I fully support the Minister and sing from the same hymn sheet as Mr Campbell on this issue. The Minister said that she was looking at community input. How does the Minister intend to keep the wider community involved and, indeed, those 70 expressions of interest so that the 900-acre site is absolutely maximised, as Mr Campbell said, not just for Ballykelly but for the entire north-west?”
“Let us not confine the debate simply to the Lidls and Asdas of the world, which are exploiting the farmers in the way that they are. I support the motion.”
“Perhaps it is time to look again to the Assembly to encourage the farming industry to take charge of its destiny and create a renaissance of the cooperative principle that works extremely well for credit unions and an increasing number of other activities that we hear hardly anything about. <BR /> <BR />If we continue to sit on our hands and claim that we can do nothing, the agriculture industry will go to the wall, and its future will be lost for the next generation — the work will be lost, and that does not save our environment, our wildlife or the many services that the public take for granted when they go running to the large supermarkets to buy their cheap milk. <BR /> <BR />Finally, let us reflect on just how important the farming industry is to our countryside, our tourism, our environment, and, indeed, our basic health.”
“— in the farming industry or is the motion just for the optics, given that an election will certainly come up some time soon, perhaps sooner than some parties want? <BR /> <BR />In the distant past, when the gombeen men were ripping off the small farmers of Ireland, those farmers took control of the situation and established farming cooperatives in almost every town across the country and began reaping the benefits of their hard work. Regrettably, many of those wonderful cooperatives disappeared or became part of bigger and bigger cooperatives. That changed the whole ethos of the cooperative principles to such an extent that they, too, are victims of global markets that do not give a hoot about the long-term survival of the agriculture industry.”
“When times are better, they buy new plant and machinery. They become the envy of their neighbours, who interpret shiny new tractors as evidence of money in the bank. The neighbours do not realise that those shiny new tractors are all too often bought with bank loans granted on the basis of evidence that income was stable when they were bought. <BR /> <BR />More recently, we were told by the Chairperson of the Agriculture Committee, who is a farmer — I am glad that he is the Chamber today, along with one other Member of his party — that the problem is global and that a solution does not lie with the Assembly. One wonders, therefore, why the DUP put the motion in the Order Paper today. Is it serious about the crisis — or is it crises?”
“It is a fine mess with no obvious solutions as to what to do about it, other than to sit idly by and allow thousands of farming families to go to the wall. Hopefully, that is not the plan. I am sure that that is over the top. I have no doubt that there are people in our farming industry with vision, aspiration and belief who see better solutions than bankruptcy, bad health and, indeed, suicide. <BR /> <BR />One lesson that we can learn immediately is not to leave an industry as important or as serious as the agriculture industry to the mercy of private enterprise, certainly not the supermarket chains that are selling milk more cheaply than mineral water with no regard to the long-term outcome of exploiting the dairy industry for short-term gain. That is disgraceful. <BR /> <BR />Unfortunately, farmers are not their own best friend.”
“I have been around the Assembly for a long time. I looked up the Hansard report of a debate in 2000, when there was a crisis in the agriculture industry. I recall the debate getting off to a very bad start when an Ulster Unionist Member queried the syntax: he asked about the omission of the indefinite article and whether it should read "a crisis" or "crises". If the Ulster Unionists were back today, perhaps they would realise that it is serious. <BR /> <BR />What has happened in the 15 years since that first debate led by the late Dr Paisley? Why is it that, today, farmers are painted into a corner with nowhere to go? Other Members covered the components of the "crisis", but why have we left the industry to the free market and taken a laissez-faire approach to how business operates?”
“I listened very carefully to the Minister. I am absolutely delighted that he is here today despite his party's best efforts to collapse the Assembly through its support for adjournment. Now that he is here, can he tell us this: is the Ulster University now at variance with our economic strategy, which aims to educate young people to a standard where they are capable of attracting new inward investment — that is, of course, a main argument for dealing with corporation tax — or, as I suspect, is the Minister sitting on his hands?”
“I thank the Minister for his answer. Is the health and well-being project being pursued? Perhaps more importantly, is he aware that teachers who stay in the profession until they are in their 60s have a remarkably short life expectancy and no longer have the opportunity to retire earlier, as they may have done in the past? Is the Department taking that issue seriously, given that those people dedicated their whole life to the teaching profession?”
“I thank the Minister for her comprehensive answer. She will be aware that some football clubs are better organised than others and have greater resources. What additional help is available to clubs that are, perhaps, not as au fait with making applications for funding? Can she assure us that the money will be dispersed across the region?”
“I was somewhat comforted by the assurance from Mr Swann that the unionists will not run away from this crisis, but one could be forgiven for wondering why there were so many empty seats across the Chamber when this critical statement was delivered. <BR /> <BR />I ask the Minister what progress, if any, has been made by the Commission to introduce or finalise negotiations for the school milk scheme. I ask that question in all sincerity because, as the Minister knows, last week there were new figures on child poverty. Primary schools are finding it increasingly difficult to fund breakfast clubs. We all know that, among the people who really depend on the Assembly, there are many children from a background in which they get their nutritious meals in the morning in school.”
“Therefore, the debate may be premature. I do not know. <BR /> <BR />It is a real pity that this Assembly is again in doubt and that the ordinary bread-and-butter issues that we are discussing may not be adequately addressed. That would be a shame. Let us hope that, in the next few weeks, the negotiations will bear in mind that there are very serious issues relating to health that have not been addressed. Those issues must be addressed in an ever-changing world. <BR /> <BR />I have the highest praise for my hospital in Coleraine. The Dal, as an outreach, performs a vital service to that hospital to make it viable and part of the future. So, we are not just talking about saving the Dal, we are talking about retaining and enhancing a facility that will give essential support to our two main hospitals.”
“We are blessed that we have two excellent hospitals, but they have problems with bed-blocking and looking after patients who are not quite ready for home but could be looked after for a short time in the Dal. <BR /> <BR />Some reference has been made to the Save the Dal group's July 2015 report. The recommendations in the report are encouraging and include piloting the Living Well approach in the Ballycastle area and working in partnership with the trust, the council, the local community and the community and voluntary sector. The Living Well approach would turn the Dal into a hub for outreach, support and care for the frail, the elderly and the vulnerable in Ballycastle and beyond. It is worth noting that those proposals have not yet been formally presented to the Northern Health and Social Care Trust.”
“The closure does not only affect MS sufferers, it is in complete contradiction to Transforming Your Care. These cuts and closures are not consistent with the community-focused ambition of TYC, which aims to shift healthcare from centralised institutions into the community to facilitate people better and closer to their homes. The decision to close community facilities will have a devastating effect on patients and their families. <BR /> <BR />Some reference has been made to the overstay of patients in the Causeway Hospital and Antrim Area Hospital. A GP told me the other day that the problem is very clearly the lack of intermediary care, which, of course, the Dal was providing. As Paul Frew pointed out, it is not just about saving the Dal, it is about planning for a future that meets the needs of the people.”
“I am pleased to take part in this debate as I was involved in the campaign. I have to express disappointment that we have not moved forward, but I am encouraged by the contributions to date. <BR /> <BR />I became involved with the Dal many years ago in quite an unusual way. A good friend of mine had MS, and he was looked after in Peter Stott Martin House in Cullybackey. Of course, he was devastated when that closed. An undertaking was given that the same quality of service or better would be provided at the Dal, and it certainly lived up to that. It must be devastating for MS sufferers to find that, for the second time, they have been let down.”
“On a point of order, Mr Principal Deputy Speaker. You are aware that the Assembly was prevented from asking questions to the Ulster Unionist Minister for Regional Development today, yet his party leader and three of his colleagues turned up to ask questions on Social Development. Will you please investigate whether this is an infringement of the rules of the House that makes us the laughing stock of the Western World?”
“I thank Mr McCrea for giving way, and I am glad that he made some reference to Magherafelt. Of course, there are many examples across Northern Ireland where schools work together. Will he find it important to put on record that the controlled and integrated schools in this country were not responsible for bringing this country to its knees? Indeed, on every occasion, they provided an oasis of peace for those children who found themselves beleaguered by the violence outside. Will he agree that very little effort has been made to pay tribute to the teachers, boards of governors and pupils of those schools who performed a heroic duty during the darkest days of the Troubles?”
“I thank the Minister for his answer, which I regard as positive and very timely at this moment of crisis in the Assembly. Whatever outcomes there are from the talks, does the Minister agree with me that, for the first time, this Assembly must be allowed to move forward as one people, completely free of any paramilitary influence of any kind? Indeed, is it opportune now for some people in the unionist parties to reflect on their continuing association with the so-called political advisers of loyalist paramilitaries?”
“I welcome the response from the Minister so far. Does he agree with me that, given the serious problems that this has caused not just for new applicants but for people in existing jobs, will he undertake to monitor and review that situation on an ongoing basis? People who got warnings about very minor infringements of the law find themselves not just in a very embarrassing position but sometimes in a position where their job may be lost.”
“I thank the Minister for her very positive answer, and I concur totally with her. Will she agree with me that, if a special economic task force had perhaps been set up and a master plan created for the site, we might well be in a better position to exploit what she rightly claims is one of the most magnificent sites anywhere in that part of Northern Ireland?”
“I just ask the Member innocently — maybe he is an aspiring future party leader in the Alliance — when is he going to stop adopting the clocking-hen approach, on the eggs one day in relation to water charges and off the eggs the next day?”
“There will be no certainty of connecting to the public network unless the article 161 agreement is in place; construction standards have been met, which refers to drains, sewers or SUDS; a bond is in place; and provision is made for the adoption of the infrastructure by Northern Ireland Water. Again, many people in new estates were left with the heartache of living in an area where these connections were not up to standard or not properly connected at all. <BR /> <BR />In conclusion, we in the SDLP support the Bill moving forward to Committee Stage, when we can tease out more detail on certain areas. The Bill is a good example of bringing forward legislation after consultation, but another opportunity to hear from stakeholders is beneficial. I wish the Bill well in the future.”
“If a drain, sewer or system does not meet the required standards and would prejudice the public system, it can be refused. This clause also means that connections could be refused if suitable alternatives are available. I know that some people in Kilrea, which is built on a hill, will certainly be looking with great interest to this particular clause becoming a power. <BR /> <BR />Clause 6 is on sewer adoption. The clause was brought forward by the Committee's inquiry into unadopted roads and is included in the Bill to make the right to connect dependent on the developer having entered into an agreement.”
“<BR /> <BR />Clause 4 defines a sustainable drainage system, popularly known as SUDS, a structure that is designed to receive surface water from premises and discharge it at either a reduced rate or in a reduced volume to the public sewer system or watercourses. I am sure that those of us who have watched areas of Belfast experience flash flooding hope that this clause will make a massive contribution to reducing the awful hardship that we saw imposed on so many people, many of whom were without house insurance. <BR /> <BR />Clause 5 relates to surface water connections. The Bill will add lack of sustainable drainage to the reasons why Northern Ireland Water can refuse connections of surface water to its public sewer network.”
“I am glad to hear that, before any regulations are made, there will be a consultation process involving the DOE, the regulator, the Consumer Council, Northern Ireland Water and other stakeholders. I support that. It was soul-destroying, under the previous Minister, to see 25,000 water meters installed, when the stated position was not to introduce water charges. On this occasion, as in the past, I commend Mr Kennedy on stopping that process and ensuring that water charges are not introduced here. The SDLP, just to mention the party briefly, opposes water charges, which we already pay through our rates. We should not be forced to pay twice for water. Forcing a new charge on already hard-pressed householders would increase inequality.”
“<BR /> <BR />Clause 2 aims to amalgamate the water resource management plan and the drought management plan into one overarching plan. The water resource and supply resilience plan will mean that, instead of having a water resource management plan every five years and a drought management plan in place every three years, there will be a single plan every six years. It is beneficial that this coincides with the price control period, and I am glad to hear that it is aimed at reducing bureaucracy, red tape and administration costs. God knows, nobody in the Assembly would disagree with that. <BR /> <BR />Clause 3, of course, is the very exciting one that gives the Department the power to stop installing water meters when making domestic connections.”
“I join others in speaking on the Second Stage of the Water and Sewerage Services Bill. The Bill has come to the Assembly after a period of consultation, and as already indicated, it has six clauses. <BR /> <BR />Clause 1 would allow the Department for Regional Development to continue to pay a subsidy to Northern Ireland Water on behalf of domestic customers until March 2017. It would also enable the subsidy to continue until a later date, subject to regulations. During the consultation process, there was agreement that the subsidy should be extended until the end of the current mandate and that additional powers should be brought forward to allow the Department to extend the subsidy through subordinate legislation.”
“I also welcome the Minister's statement. I noted that the British-Irish Council reflected on the need to project the best image of the organisation in how it represents people across these islands, and that is to be commended. Not least, of course, is the issue of youth unemployment, and I am pleased that that issue was discussed. Will the Minister tell us what he has gleaned from those discussions that might slow down the number of our young people who are heading off to other parts, legally and illegally, to find work when there is none at home?”
“<BR /> <BR />The Assembly, I am sure, is united in extending its good wishes to the people who were injured, some of them with life-changing injuries. Our prayers are with those families who, over the next few days, have to bring home the bodies of their loved ones.”
“I particularly thank the British-Irish secretariat here in Belfast, which was absolutely outstanding in giving information to that family that their son was, in fact, safe after spending several hours locked in a bedroom, not knowing exactly what had happened. <BR /> <BR />Like Mr McIlveen, I have been to Tunisia, although just as a holidaymaker. I found the people there to be exceptionally good people. They are poor and very much dependent on tourism for their survival. They, too, need to be in our thoughts, because many countries in the world have had their tourism industry destroyed by acts of terrorism. Today, this island and our neighbouring island, along with Germany and Sweden, are united in grieving for all those families who went there to enjoy a short holiday and are now plunged into grief.”