Mark Durkan
Foyle · Social Democratic and Labour Party · Northern Ireland
“That review involved an extensive engagement exercise with charities, regulators and funders, aimed at creating a more modern and proportionate regulatory system.”
“When the review was commenced in 2021, many organisations were still in the midst of responding to the pandemic. Since then, they have faced a succession of new and evolving challenges. The ending of European funding programmes, on which so many in our communities relied for decades, has left a significant gap.”
“<BR /> <BR />The broad principles behind the Bill are sensible. The changes will modernise charity regulation, strengthen the Charity Commission's ability to intervene where misconduct or mismanagement occurs, improve information sharing and, importantly, reduce unnecessary red tape, particularly for smaller charities with limited adminis…”
“I welcome the opportunity to speak today. Before turning to the detail of the legislation — there will not even be that much detail in the debate today at Second Stage — I pay tribute to our charity sector. Across every constituency, charities provide support that changes and saves lives every single day.”
“<BR /> <BR />Whilst the SDLP supports legislation that removes unnecessary bureaucracy, we should not kid ourselves that administrative reform alone will secure the future of charities and organisations in the voluntary and community sector.”
“I thank the Minister for giving way. Like other Members, I welcome the fact that we have reached this point. There seems to be consensus among Committee members and, I am sure, all Members that the introduction of these measures will save lives, which begs the question of whether the 10-year delay in introducing the measures had an opposi…”
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“I support the Bill. The Minister and other Members have outlined the necessity for the Bill and the undoubted benefits that it brings to enabling our housing associations to access more funding and build more much-needed homes as our housing waiting lists continue to spiral and more and more families face housing stress and homelessness. We must take every step within our power to address this shameful situation and afford our people the fundamental right of a roof over their head. Not only will the Bill allow us to build more social housing, but it will free up finance to support co-ownership, allowing some people an affordable housing option and a chance to get on the property ladder. I welcome the Minister's recent announcement in that regard.”
“— took place in 2009. Will the Minister commit to a fresh independent review of economic policy here?”
“The north-west is the worst-performing subregional economy on these islands. I could ask a supplementary question about the failure to expand the university, one about the tug of war that is ongoing with the medical school or one about Invest NI's record in the north-west, but all those issues are symptomatic of failed economic policy. The Minister talks about a new strategy: strategy is one thing, but policy is another. The last independent review of economic policy —”
“I thank the Minister for his answer. One of my proudest achievements in my former role as Environment Minister was to get every school in Northern Ireland on the Eco-Schools programme: the only place in the world to achieve that. However, we have a bit of a problem in our schools with where their waste goes, with some schools having no recycling facility whatsoever. That is environmentally damaging and a drain on public finance. Will the Minister work with his counterpart and colleague in Education to ensure a better approach to waste disposal across our school estate?”
“I thank the First Minister for her response. Given the announcement from the deputy First Minister on 7 May that the Executive Office would take forward the medical school project and her subsequent announcement that it had been approved, can the Executive Office give a cast-iron guarantee that, as announced, the Magee medical school will be ready for admissions by September next year? Will the Minister outline what specific dates and deadlines must be met to achieve that goal?”
“I made the point previously, and I make it again, that the cost of us not having government for three years was over £40 million and 700 new social homes for struggling families. I will not, therefore, take lectures from Sinn Féin on me jeopardising budgets. To be fair, that criticism did not come from the Minister, who was measured in her approach and explanation, but from her party colleagues. <BR /> <BR />I am disappointed: it is obvious that my amendments will not pass. I genuinely thought that this was a great opportunity to ensure full protection of our social housing stock. I reiterate my commitment to work with the Minister to deliver more social housing for the thousands of families and individuals who are in severe housing stress.”
“Is it not government's primary obligation to provide homes for those most in need? People who are homeless have greater need than those in secure accommodation. If we did not have a huge backlog of unaddressed housing need, this would not be an issue, but we do, and it is. <BR /> <BR />Minister Ní Chuilín slipped back into the role with ease. It is like riding a bike, Carál. Do you have it in writing that ONS would not accept the amendments? If you do, can we see it? We were reminded that failure to pass the Bill will cost £3 million a month that would be used on new builds. Can we expect that when it passes — I will be supporting its passage — every penny of that money will be ring-fenced for that purpose?”
“<BR /> <BR />The Member proceeded to make points about party colleagues of mine that bore no relevance to the amendments and little semblance to reality. It was seen from Ms Anderson that attack is still the best form of defence. <BR /> <BR />I appreciated support and sympathy from the Green Party and People Before Profit. I want to go back to a point, which, I think, Rachel Woods asked: have we anything definitive from ONS? Has the Department even sought an opinion from ONS on the validity or competence of the amendments? <BR /> <BR />I will also address the point that was made by Mr Allister, and echoed by Andy Allen, that homes sold do not equate to homes lost, because they still house people. They are lost to social housing stock. That would be grand if we had lots of surplus stock, but we do not.”
“It has been over 400 homes for each of the past five years, not 300, as the Member said. <BR /> <BR />It is important that we work with all parties to deliver more social housing, as the Member pledged to do, and we look to all parties to do what is required to ensure that we deliver more social housing. We will need Executive support for resources for Northern Ireland Water to ensure appropriate water and waste infrastructure to enable new builds. When DFC is not building enough houses, it is down to Tory austerity, but when Northern Ireland Water cannot afford to put in infrastructure, it is all Nichola Mallon's fault. That is something that we need to look at as an Executive, and we need to stop this petty point-scoring.”
“I conducted a wee consultation of my own at the weekend — nothing too scientific, just through the power of Facebook — and I got over 50 responses from people in our shared constituency. It was a fairly mixed bag; people saw the merits and the drawbacks of the policy, but all of them lamented the lack of social housing. When I read through the Hansard report of the 2016 debate, when her party called for the immediate suspension of the scheme, I saw that a number of Sinn Féin and DUP Members had waxed lyrical about the 10,000 new social homes that were going to be built in that mandate. As we know, that mandate did not last wild long. Where have those homes gone? How many of that 10,000 have been delivered? Is it half? In the same time, we have lost, maybe, 1,800 homes through the right-to-buy schemes.”
“She said that ONS was concerned about the reclassification or classification of housing associations. The Bill addresses that as it stands and it will still address that, if amended. She said that if the Minister stood up and said that the Department had had it from ONS that it would not jeopardise the Bill, she would have no bother supporting the amendment. I will just remind her that the same Department sat on the consultation on the matter for two years before it saw the light of day. <BR /> <BR />Martina Anderson spoke for Sinn Féin and said that there was a housing crisis across the island. That is true and it is lamentable. Her party has been extremely vociferous about the issue in the South. I wonder what Eoin Ó Broin would think of Sinn Féin's opposition to my amendments today. She spoke of widespread support for the Bill.”
“OK. Andy also asserted that most families who purchase a social home remain in it. That is borne out by a recently completed piece of Housing Executive research — it is a broad analysis — which demonstrates that of the 120,500 Housing Executive properties that have been sold since 1979, almost half are still owned and occupied by the original purchaser. Just over a quarter were owned by someone other than the original purchaser and just over a quarter were rented privately, the majority by private landlords and a small proportion by housing associations, which have started to buy some back. <BR /> <BR />Kellie Armstrong seemed to be of the view — I entirely accept her position — that ONS will not accept the amendment. However, I have yet to hear a compelling reason why it would not do so. It is imperative that we pursue that.”
“He mentioned the Minister's pledge to bring forward legislation to deal with the Housing Executive and the right to buy, but I have to ask: when? The clock is ticking on this mandate. Will the Member support any such proposals if the Minister brings something forward to address the right-to-buy scheme?”
“<BR /> <BR />Ms Ennis commenced by extolling the virtues of the Bill. Let me reiterate that I support the Bill. I raised concerns in the Committee, although she said that I did not. I know that it was over the phone; maybe the Member missed it. I explained it again in the last debate and I apologised for it then; maybe she missed it again. <BR /> <BR />The amendments, in my view — it is just my view; I have not sought legal opinion and I do not know whether anyone else has — would not risk the passage of the Bill. I am not sure how they would do that. So, when the Member accuses me of making ill-thought-out political points, she might want to read over her own contributions and reflect on them. <BR /> <BR />Andy Allen made an impassioned defence of the right-to-buy scheme.”
“ask the Minister to repeat that. I want to thank Members for their contributions and I will attempt to address some, if not all, of the issues that have been raised. <BR /> <BR />The first contribution was from Paula Bradley, the Chair of the Communities Committee. I agree entirely with her about the need to overhaul — I think that that was the word that she used; I might use the word "reinvigorate" — the Northern Ireland Housing Executive. She made the point that, generally, housing association properties are a wee bit swankier than the older Housing Executive stock and are, therefore, more attractive. What she did not mention, however, is the fact that that is reflected in the rents for those properties, which are, sometimes, nearly twice the cost, and which does not make them that attractive after all.”
“Amendment No 3 is a consequential amendment that will change the long title of the Bill after Members have all voted in favour of amendment Nos 1 and 2. I implore Members to support the amendments.”
“The policy has also caused the fragmentation of settled communities as the private rental sector, by its nature, has much more transient tenants. <BR /> <BR />I will wrap it up for now but look forward to listening to the rest of the debate. I should also explain that amendment No 2 is virtually a technical extension of amendment No 1 and would extend the two-year transition period to which Mr Allen referred to the Housing Executive, as is already proposed for housing associations. That means that all existing social housing tenants would have two years from the passage of the Bill to commence the purchase of their home, should they desire to so do. It creates equality. It should also serve as a reminder to Members who have reservations about supporting my amendments that the right to buy will not vanish overnight.”
“The Bill will not do that unless the amendment is made. The policy has been completely scrapped in Scotland and Wales for local authorities and housing associations. The main reason for doing that was that much-needed social housing stock was being lost, with the better stock being sold off. At present, with almost 40,000 households on the waiting list and the inevitable negative impact that social housing new build will have suffered as a consequence of COVID-19, we cannot continue to sell off stock and not replace it. I have already stated that many previous right-to-buy properties have ended up in the private rented sector, which charges much higher rents than the Northern Ireland Housing Executive does. Housing benefit underpins a lot of that.”
“Sometimes, the lure of a quick profit is a bit too much to resist for owner-occupiers, who sell their houses on to those professional private landlords who just rent them out again and line their pockets with housing benefit, costing even more to the public purse. <BR /> <BR />At Second Stage, Ms Anderson said that the right-to-buy-policy:”
“There is the liability for repairs and insurances and being at the mercy of banks and interest rates, and, now, owners of former social properties in a number of schemes — I know of at least two in my constituency — are getting hit by huge bills for general maintenance. One man who has been in with me is getting a bill of £4,000 because the stairs on the outside of his apartment block are getting painted. There are vultures out there — we were warned about them by a number of speakers in the previous debate — who are are happy to swoop in and take people's former social homes off their hands.”
“I thank the Member for his intervention. I do not think that I have an issue here with prematurity. Had Members listened to my appeal against giving the Bill accelerated passage, we could have had much more time to scrutinise it. I said at the time that it was not my intention or desire to unpick the legislation; it is my desire to improve it. I believe and reiterate that we all need to work together to explore any options that are out there to ensure that there are more affordable homes as well as more social housing units for those who will never, sadly, be able to afford their own home. <BR /> <BR />Homeownership is not without its pitfalls.”
“I do not disagree with them and will work with any Minister to ensure that we have more affordable housing options. However, even with the discount, many sadly struggle to afford a mortgage, not to mention the costs that come with it. We are all familiar with the sorry sight of boarded-up former social housing units across our constituencies — bought, lost, repossessed and now lying as empty eyesores in the possession of the banks, while the families that were in them are back to square one, on a housing waiting list with a lot more snakes than ladders.”
“According to the 'Housing Statistics' bulletin, since 2002, that number has increased by a shocking 11,600 households. In the same period, the Housing Executive house sales scheme accounted for more than 10,000 social properties being taken out of stock. That is Housing Executive properties alone. That is astonishing and is well worth remembering the next time a desperate constituent contacts you for help with housing. <BR /> <BR />More and more families have to run the gauntlet of the private rental sector. How much would those families love to have a secure home? Now weigh that against the importance of owning a home. Defenders of the right to buy will highlight the opportunity it gives people to own their own home and lament the lack of other affordable housing options.”
“<BR /> <BR />I should point out that, according to the consultation responses, there is overwhelming recognition of the need to end the mandatory house sales scheme in the Housing Executive and registered housing associations, just as my amendment would do. Some Members ask why we should end a scheme that has been so popular. It was the subject of a debate in the House in 2016, when Fra McCann tabled a private Member's motion calling for the immediate suspension of the right to buy. A quick read through Hansard from that debate spells out clearly why. If we needed to do it in 2016, we most definitely need to do it now. In every year since and including 2016, the Housing Executive has sold over 400 homes. That is where we haemorrhage housing stock. <BR /> <BR />I spoke about the number of households on the social housing waiting list.”
“I am loath to land all this at your door, Minister Ní Chuilín, but I am fairly sure that, having heard you speak many times of the importance of transparency, accountability and access to information, you will share my concern and confusion that the consultation analysis has appeared only now, somewhere between the eleventh and twelfth hours, as the legislation it relates to is halfway through the legislative process. In policy-making, that is absolutely appalling. One has to wonder whether, had I and other Members not asked about the about the findings of the consultation, it would ever have seen the light of day. I recommend that Members familiarise themselves with the consultation and its responses. It can now be found on the Department for Communities website, but you will not find it in any information pack related to this debate.”
“Remarkably, however, analysis of the consultation responses was published by the Department for Communities only on Friday past, nearly two years after the completion of that second consultation. The Committee was told nothing about the report. <BR /> <BR />I am not sure why there was such a delay in the publication of the analysis of the responses, particularly given the importance of the Bill and the importance that the majority in the House attached to it getting accelerated passage through the Assembly. I opposed accelerated passage — do not worry: I will not rehash that whole argument — but how are we, as elected Members of a legislative Assembly, expected to make legislation and shape policy like this?”
“<BR /> <BR />Those are points that Members must consider, but what we really must consider — I would like to know whether Minister Hargey considered it before tabling the Bill — is the 'Joint Consultation Response Report on Proposals to Seek Reversal of the Reclassification of Registered Housing Associations in Northern Ireland'. Consultation 1, on proposals to reverse the reclassification, ran between December 2016 and February 2017. The level of responses that it generated on the house sales scheme was such that it led the Department to consult further; hence, consultation 2 was specifically on the issue of the house sales scheme, both for housing associations and the Housing Executive, and was carried out from 3 July 2018 to 24 September 2018.”
“I thank the Member for his intervention. I am not quite sure what point he makes. I recall the Minister expressing her desire to address the issue. My point is this: why not address it now, when the Bill is in front of us? <BR />The clause will also, in the view of Housing Rights, create potential difficulty in administering the social housing allocation system, which may allow some tenants a route to homeownership but not others. That, in turn, could contribute to some would-be tenants turning down reasonable offers of accommodation, which would compound the huge difficulties that we already face in trying to address housing stress.”
“I appreciate and had anticipated the point that Mr Allister has made, and I will address it in my speech. If I do not do so, he can come back to me when I make my winding-up speech. <BR /> <BR />Clause 7 creates inequality in access to social housing and homeownership. Tenants of Housing Executive properties will have the opportunity one day to purchase the property — their own home — but the same opportunity will not exist for housing association tenants.”
“However, that means that it is incumbent on the rest of us, because all other parties that spoke on that day expressed either outright opposition to the right-to-buy policy or, in the case of Alliance's Kellie Armstrong, recognised the need to align the right-to-buy policies in housing associations with those in the Housing Executive.”
“Some Members — Andy Allen from the UUP and Jonathan Buckley from the DUP — indicated their support for the retention of the right-to-buy scheme; that is the policy of their respective parties and I respect that.”
“Given the huge detrimental impact of housing stress and homelessness on families and individuals, for example, people living in temporary accommodation, crammed into overcrowded conditions with their extended families, sleeping on sofas and families having to separate, can we, as a society, really afford to reduce our stock of social housing? When we are failing to build anywhere near enough homes to get beyond the tip of the housing crisis iceberg, should we really be selling off in the region of 500 homes a year? Is the right to own your own home not trumped by the basic human right to have a home? <BR /> <BR />During Second Stage a fortnight ago, much of the debate centred on clause 7.”
“We all know people and families who have availed themselves of this scheme. It has enabled people to enter the homeownership market and many will speak of the pride, empowerment and security that has come from doing so. Nobody would, or could, take issue with the tens of thousands of families who have benefited from the scheme's existence. However, as legislators, we have to ask ourselves some serious questions. <BR /> <BR />The housing waiting list currently stands at a staggering 38,000 households, with around 20,000 considered to be in housing stress and around 10,000 categorised as being homeless, each and every year.”
“<BR /> <BR />The aim of this Bill is to facilitate the reversal of the Office of National Statistics (ONS) decision in 2016 to reclassify registered housing associations from the private sector to the public sector. Ultimately, the reason that we have to pass this Bill, in Minister Hargey's words, is to protect the supply of new and existing social and affordable homes. Perhaps the most significant change will be an end to the compulsory need for registered housing associations to operate a house sales scheme. <BR /> <BR />The amendments tabled today in essence seek to extend this change to the Northern Ireland Housing Executive, our largest social housing landlord. Since the inception of the scheme in 1979, the Housing Executive has sold over 120,000 properties; it has 85,000 left.”
“Before we commence the debate, I want to take the opportunity to offer my best wishes, and those of the SDLP, to Deirdre Hargey. We wish her a speedy recovery and hope that she is back behind her desk, in the Department, before too long. We also send get-well wishes to the Principal Deputy Speaker. On the other hand, I want to welcome Minister Ni Chuilín and congratulate her on her appointment. I am sure that she hopes that it is a short one. Having worked with Carál as a Minister in the Executive, I know only too well the attributes that she will bring to this extremely challenging role and I look forward to working with her to deliver for people.”
“I beg to move amendment No 1. In page 6, line 34, leave out subsection (1) and insert:”
“Does the Minister concur with me that there certainly seems to be disproportionality and inconsistency in an approach that saw the issuing of 11 fines and community resolution notices in Belfast and 57 in Foyle, where attempts were made and adhered to by the vast majority of those in attendance to ensure social distancing and where masks, gloves and hand sanitiser were provided? Does the Minister share my view that it would not be in the public interest to pursue prosecutions?”
“With that in mind, does the Minister concur that it would be extremely short-sighted — in fact, it would be scandalous — should the Executive choose not to fund the Community Crisis Intervention Service in my constituency?”
“I thank the Minister for his statement. The Minister and Members have spoken of the impact of the pandemic and the lockdown on people's mental health. It is fair enough to presume that there will be an ongoing increase in the need for support and services. The pandemic is also having a devastating impact on community mental health services, particularly community and voluntary organisations and charities, which have yet to receive any financial assistance. With demand increasing and important preventative and early intervention projects being severely depleted, it is also fair to assume that more people, sadly and inevitably, will reach crisis point.”
“<BR /> <BR />While this Act relates to protections and benefits for our citizens, and we must ensure that people here do not miss out on their entitlements, there was a genuine fear, shared by many Committee members, that the goalposts might move and we could end up with a different piece of legislation that was much less positive and be powerless to do anything about it. We were very pleased to receive assurances, which the Minister reiterated today, that any changes will come back to us for scrutiny and approval. We support this on that basis. Every Member who has spoken so far has said the same: going down the LCM route is bad practice when dealing with devolved matters, but we recognise the need to do so here. It is yet another symptom of the three-year hiatus hangover, but we support it.”
“Initially, when I saw this item coming to the Committee, it is fair to say that I winced. We had major concerns that not only were we asking another legislature to do our job for us, never mind what or who that legislature is, but we have been bitten badly by a legislative consent motion in the not too distant past, when the Minister's party and others gave consent to Westminster to legislate for us on welfare, and they ended up throwing in the ultra-draconian two-child rule and the barbaric rape clause for good measure.”
“I thank the Member for giving way, where a previous Member would not. Following Ms Anderson's scathing critique of the right-to-buy scheme, does the Member concur with me that it is frankly bizarre that she was entirely dismissive of remarks raised by me and others, that the scheme should be extended, or the — I have lost it now — should be extended to the Northern Ireland Housing Executive as well, who sell 10 times more homes per year than housing associations?”
“What we are talking about here is not a huge delay but merely time to afford Committee members and MLAs who are not on the Committee an opportunity to scrutinise the Bill fully and hear evidence from the sector, experts in the field and even the Housing Executive on the legislation's implications for the wider housing sector.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. In this debate, I referred to the need to use every legislative tool at our disposal to help our constituents, so many of whom — you gave a figure, Ms Anderson, of 26,000 — are in housing need. Of course we must, and the accelerated passage procedure is a legislative tool. Yes, it is one that other Ministers, from every party, will have used at different stages in the lifetime of the Assembly. Will the Member not concur with me, however, that it is vital that we get legislation right?”
“We and our constituents cannot afford for the Bill not to pass, and we support it.”
“We have heard the cost, which is £3 million per month, of not doing this. However, for how many months have we been paying that £3 million? This legislation, like so much important legislation, has been delayed because we had no Assembly. In response to Ms Ennis, I say that I did ask officials about the financial cost of the delay and was given a rough estimate of £40 million thus far. As for social cost, one of the Minister's officials computed that 700 social homes had not been built as a direct consequence of the pyrrhic political stand-off between Sinn Féin and the DUP that left the people of the North without an Assembly. However, we have moved on, I hope, and now we must focus on making things right. The Minister and Chair outlined the Bill's benefits, and there are many.”
“We support the work of housing associations and co-ownership.”
“We need to empower our housing providers to build more, and we need to use every legislative tool at our disposal to do so.”
“That is not my intention, believe me, but it is important that the weaknesses in any legislation are flagged up as it is debated in the House. Clause 8 appears to allow the Department to compensate housing associations that continue to operate a voluntary right-to-buy scheme. How will that work? What measures will exist to prevent associations picking what homes they want to sell solely on the basis of profitability, selling off better homes while happily retaining homes of a lower standard for social housing tenants? <BR /> <BR />Despite the fact that we will now not have a Committee Stage, I am and we are happy to work with any and every Member and the Minister to consider how the Bill may be strengthened. That should not detract from my support of the Bill's aim to reverse the ONS reclassification.”
“<BR /> <BR />As things stand, about 10 times as many Northern Ireland Housing Executive properties as housing association properties are sold every year. In Committee, I sought and received an assurance from the Minister that she would address the Housing Executive situation in the near future. We need to hear more detail on that, and we need to hear it soon. Does the Minister intend or envisage an ultimate reclassification of the Housing Executive to take it out of public sector borrowing requirements and a remodelling that would allow it to borrow and build much-needed homes and communities, as it does so well? An update on the social housing reform programme would be welcome from the Minister today. <BR /> <BR />I am conscious that I might be coming across a bit curmudgeonly.”