Colin McGrath
South Down · Social Democratic and Labour Party · Northern Ireland
“Minister, regardless of where people stand on the exact figure, surely we can all agree that a health service cannot function without the doctors whom it trains.”
“Minister, climate change is happening, and extreme weather events are taking place. We saw that in Downpatrick a number of years ago when the town centre was ravaged by flooding, and it has taken the businesses affected many years to try to get over that flooding.”
“Minister, given that capital funding is, generally, being decimated, the extent of which may increase as a result of the Executive's not agreeing a Budget, what impact will that have on any final road maintenance strategy, and are any contingencies being put in place to manage that?”
“<BR /> <BR />Since March 2025, the parliamentary excellence programme has delivered dedicated sessions with the Executive Office on the strategic framework and its delivery plan, enhancing Members’ understanding of the cross-government approach and their role in scrutiny, legislation and constituency engagement.”
“<BR /> <BR />More broadly, the Assembly Commission supports Members and Committees in carrying out their scrutiny functions, including in relation to the Executive Office’s work on that framework.”
“As the Member mentioned, one example is the Assembly's Women's Caucus, which has a particular focus on supporting women in public life and highlighting the increasing challenges that women face in the digital sphere, including online abuse.”
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“They use the methodology of the outdoors and action activities such as mountaineering, hillwalking, canoeing, sailing, bouldering, abseiling, night lining and other outdoor pursuits to educate. It is exciting for children, thrilling for teenagers and a delight for the youth worker and teacher to use the medium to educate young people, especially those who do not often excel in the academic setting. It is invaluable for them. Outdoor centres and outdoor education are an essential and integral element of our education system and one that many in the world are jealous of. I can vouch for that, because I have brought groups from Louth, Kerry, Cork, Scotland, France, Hungary and Finland to stay in the centres.”
“Minister, two weeks ago in the House, during Question Time, you mentioned that the reason for the rationalisation was financial pressures, yet, at the presentation to the Education Committee on Wednesday a week ago, the Education Authority said that the reason for the cutbacks was to rationalise and provide an enhanced and better service and that all the money that would be saved would be pumped back into the same centres. We need to have that clarified, because, if it is the latter, we can put a good case to you to overturn the consultation process. <BR /> <BR />Why do we have outdoor centres? They are hubs. They are a space for young people to come together to learn and to do so in an experiential way. Young people learn important life skills, teamwork skills, communication skills and much more.”
“I welcome the opportunity to lead on this important Adjournment debate, which I approach from an interesting position. I have been an avid user of outdoor education centres over the past 25 years, as a young person, a student youth worker and a full-time youth worker; in fact, I have stayed at two of the four centres that are due to close and have stayed at one of them on many, many occasions. I have brought groups of young people to the centres and can detail to you, Minister, their roles, purpose and benefit and the absolute loss and tragedy that there will be if they are to shut. <BR /> <BR />At the outset, I seek clarification on something.”
“Madam Deputy Speaker, I take being heckled by the DUP as being a good day at work. <BR /> <BR />We want the public to get the best value for money too and believe that our amendment, without a predetermination loaded into it, allows the best method for achieving that. I ask for the support of the House for our amendment.”
“Many of them do so for just their travel expenses — not all, but many of them — and give their free time to provide that service. We want the public to get the best value —”
“but to simply think of them like that is totally disingenuous and does not bring proper balance to the debate. We agree with the concept that there needs to be a review, but we want the review to tell its own story and come up with its own suggestions and recommendations of how best to go forward. We should have a discussion about how to improve efficiencies, how to share resources and how to maximise the funding available while protecting the services that are provided by the arm's-length bodies. We want to see a robust examination of them but not with the decision made on the numbers before the process begins. <BR /> <BR />We want to support the work of our arm's-length bodies and commend the service of those who work hard on them.”
“To simply cut them would mean that their responsibilities would have to pass back to the Department, and then more civil servants would need to be employed to carry out the work that the bodies did with full ministerial and, thus, political interference. Whilst I accept that there can be rationalisation of the arm's-length bodies, I do not think that this is anything to do with the number of Departments. <BR /> <BR />Arm's-length bodies — quangos, as they are known — can be easy targets, filled by those jumping on the gravy train, sucking up large expenses and getting lots of free hospitality”
“I thank the Member for her intervention. <BR /> <BR />As I was saying, it just shows the duplicity that there can sometimes be in the decision-making here. <BR /> <BR />We are not suggesting that there is a straightforward need to cut the numbers, nor are we saying that we should enter a process with a predetermined outcome. Having preferred outcomes in a consultation process is misleading, and it is a disservice to our arm's-length bodies and, indeed, to those who engage and work with them. <BR /> <BR />I do not accept the concept that, because we have reduced the number of Departments, it automatically follows that we need to reduce the number of arm's-length bodies. They sit below Executive level, below departmental level, and they often carry out work that would otherwise have to be completed by the Departments.”
“It just manages to show up the duplicity —”
“You cannot insult Peter again — that some decision-making being taken out of the hands of politicians and passed on to groups of citizens is not a bad idea, and it is one that has served us well in Northern Ireland. <BR /> <BR />Of course, the SDLP agree that examining the role and function of arm's-length bodies is acceptable and provides an opportunity to examine the work, review the resources and scrutinise outcomes. We agree that public bodies should be reviewed regularly.”
“No. I think that all of us in the House would agree —”
“Not only do they take the politics out of decision-making, they allow for decision-making to be devolved down, often to experts in their field and to those who have a specialty in the work of the body and know most about the issues and initiatives. It enables decisions to be made by the people who know best and, often, by the people who will be impacted on by the decisions. It is a great example of devolving down bottom-up decision-making.”
“I rise to speak in favour of the SDLP amendment. We felt the need to amend the motion as there seems to be a fixation on numbers by our friends in the DUP. There is some apparent struggle to meet costs, so the first proposal for them is to cut services and to cut valuable services that work well in most places for our communities. We have seen similar proposals for our schools and our jobs and benefits offices, and now, it seems, we see the same when it comes to arm's-length bodies: "We think that they are not working well, so let us cut the life out of them". <BR /> <BR />Arm's-length bodies can be good. They are an important part of our government landscape, and they allow for the depoliticising of decisions and funding around crucial parts of our public sector in which there can be no room for party politics.”
“Thank you. You mentioned that it is all about jobs for the boys, but is it not your party and Sinn Féin who have been making the appointments for the last 10 years?”
“Does the Minister agree with the teaching unions that the real-terms decrease in teachers' pay from 2010-11 has been 15%? Does he accept that that has a poor impact on teaching morale? Is there anything that can be done to address that?”
“Will the Minister consider commissioning a report on the benefits of EU funding for young people in Northern Ireland, if only at least to be prepared, should Brexit continue, to bid for any money to replace it?”
“Introducing a legislative presumption to keep rural schools open would provide some comfort to teachers, parents and pupils that small schools will not automatically face the chop. It is for that reason that I commend the motion to the House.”
“It also talks about how you need to consult and how you need to work with communities and how you need to assess with them whether or not a school should be closed. We feel that, if you have a presumption against closure, that will be part of that process of consulting the community, discussing with them, asking them for their views and allowing them to be part of the process. Therefore, we feel that both of the suggestions that are in the Alliance amendment are part of our motion. <BR /> <BR />We propose the motion to stop a process of rural closures. We have heard anecdotal soundings from within the Department that it wants up to 300 closures. That would be disastrous for our community and especially our rural communities, particularly if it is to be done simply by numbers.”
“No, we have heard enough from you today, thank you. I think that is an answer that you used earlier. <BR /> <BR />No one is saying that a school should be available on every road or on every street, but simply covering up closures by using the term "accessibility" is a bit crass. <BR /> <BR />I move to the Alliance amendment. Last week, the ETI Chief Inspector's report was mentioned and how that could be considered in any decisions that are taken forward. I think that, to be fair to the Minister, he would always consider the ETI reports. That is the purpose of them. They make the reports so that you can consider them when you make your decisions in the future, so I do not think that we need to specifically provide legislation for that.”
“It is not accessible to put children through lengthy journeys to and from school.”
“I thank the Member for her intervention. Her use of history is much better than mine, her having been here before. It is always great to see how quickly people can change their perspective on matters when they are in different offices. I hope that we can stick to the spirit of trying to get good educational outcomes for our children, and a presumption against closure would certainly help that. <BR /> <BR />As for the amendments, I am a bit concerned about the DUP amendment. I worry about the word "accessibility". It is not really detailed any further than ensuring "accessibility" to a good education. That accessibility could be interpreted as a school 20 miles, 25 miles or 30 miles down the road and that is where we will provide that education. That would be concerning, because we do not feel that that is fair.”
“It is not saying that you do not close; it is saying that the presumption should be there that you do not close. That is not just to be used in a way where you say that you presume that you are not going to close and then go off and close them; it is about saying that there needs to be a thorough process that you need to follow.”
“I thank the Member for his intervention. I think that we can take it as a given that we want the best educational outcome for all of our children in all of our schools, and closing them is not necessarily the way that may result in a better education. Lumping schools together, merging them and having larger class sizes may not be the approach that needs to be taken, and that is the substance of what our motion says. It says that the presumption should be that you do not close the schools. We are not saying that you do not close a school; we are just saying that the presumption should be that you do not close them and that you have to exhaust all other possible decisions and methods that could be taken to provide the education. That is where there is a bit of a difference between the interpretations.”
“It is used for community facilities, it is seen as a community resource and it is part of that community's identity. If it had simply been asked to look at numbers back in the late 1970s and early 1980s, it would have been closed, and it would not be there. Indeed, a quality school is more than —”
“Schools are at the core of any community, and, particularly in rural areas, communities are built around local schools. Schools connect people, they bring jobs to often remote areas and they instil a sense of ownership and belonging to an area that families live in. I attended a small rural school, and, right at the end of the 1970s, when I started, it was threatened with closure due to having small numbers. It was saved then, and now it is a vibrant, forward-thinking and modern school with over 135 pupils. People are queuing up to attend that school. If we had simply been taking the numbers approach of the late 1970s and early 1980s, it would have been shut down, and it would not have been there. Right around that school a small community has been built.”
“<BR /> <BR />We are not denying that problems exist and that they have to be addressed. We are simply saying that a more holistic view of how to deal with these problems should be considered, and we think that that more holistic approach is true area planning. <BR /> <BR />I also think the consultation is particularly weak. Twelve questions completed SurveyMonkey-style with barely enough room for 200 words for a qualitative response does not make you feel as though you are getting a good and proper opportunity to be able to respond.”
“It begins by citing the number of schools, and then it jumps to citing the percentages of those that have less than the desired numbers. I worry about the lack of openness and transparency there, because it makes it sound as though it is a low percentage rather than giving us the exact figure of the number of schools. When you churn that through, you see that it works out at roughly 300 rural schools and 174 urban schools. Under its definition of the figures in the document, it would be less than it wants them to be. That is where it starts to get a little bit worrying, because it is not just a handful of schools. We are not talking about one in each county; we are talking about 300 rural schools that do not meet the numbers. That is a very high figure.”
“It is on that basis that we have our greatest concern for those in rural communities. <BR /> <BR />Rather than simply identifying schools with enrolment levels deemed to be of concern, with the first step in addressing them being to close the school, the attitude needs to be about how we protect the schools from closure, with closure being the last resort, rather than saying, "Enrolment levels here are low. Let's just simply throw away the keys". That is why I have to question the integrity of 'Providing Pathways', the area planning document. <BR /> <BR />I take issue with what seems to be an attempt to window dress some of the numbers in a way that makes them seem slightly worse than they are. For example, the document attempts to highlight the schools with low numbers that would face closure.”
“The fact that we are all here today in this playing field and are all arguing in the same direction for our children is good. We even appreciate some of the contributions from the sidelines. <BR /> <BR />We are not against the need for area planning. We would question, though, the measure by which closures would be decided as suggested in the consultation. There are many different things referenced throughout the consultation about what should be taken into consideration, but, time and time again, the Education Authority makes reference to numbers. It talks about levels at which a school is sustainable. It even gives us it in percentages. It tells us the numbers, and that is what makes me nervous, because, to me, that means a line is being drawn in the sand where it is saying, "That is the level at which we will be making our decisions".”
“I support our motion as presented today. I suppose the most interesting element I want to take time to recognise is that everybody in the Chamber has the interests of our children and young people at heart. That is something that has impressed me during the debate. Whilst we may differ in some of the ways we want to work through that, we all start from that basis. <BR /> <BR />I also feel that, when it comes to the amendments, the DUP amendment and our motion are very similar. In fact, when I read through the amendment, the only difference I can see is that ours calls for legislative grounds against the presumption of closure of rural schools. That is not there; a thorough case is being asked for by the DUP. So, I see very little difference.”
“Why are this Government not supporting that initiative?”
“The deputy First Minister will be aware that Nicola Sturgeon has respected the majority will of the people of Scotland in supporting the legal case brought forward to the Supreme Court. We need a wee bit more information other than another case is doing it.”
“There is more than one party in the Executive, and there is more than one party that can help to make the decision appropriate.”
“It is clear that consideration is not being given to the locality of workplace for existing staff and the fact that many have chosen to work in their local jobs and benefits office as it is conveniently located to ensure that they can remain as carers for elderly family members or for children. <BR /> <BR />Mr Speaker, you will notice that I have a lot of concerns about the proposed changes and that the word that keeps cropping up is "equality". I am deeply concerned that a full and robust equality impact assessment has not been undertaken and urge that it be completed. If we do not assess, we are left to guess, and that is not the basis for any decisions. I call on the Minister and the Executive to reverse the decision.”
“I question whether we have evidence to prove that weaker broadband will be able to facilitate a new IT-based system. The use of IT systems in an independent manner assumes that everyone has capable literacy standards. As this is not the case, those who are unable to use services will have to travel to centres to get assistance. I believe that this is an outright act of discrimination against those who have lower literacy capacity. <BR /> <BR />It is unquestionable that the proposed closure of the Cookstown jobcentre and social security office will have a disproportionate impact on women. Some 88·5% of staff in the Cookstown offices are women.”
“It astounds me that moving to an IT-based system can be suggested as a positive solution to proposed closures when an equality impact assessment is yet to be carried out. It is clear that proper thought has not gone into this so-called solution. Of course, we have to consider the massive cost of the service, which will be passed on to the claimant. It assumes that the benefit recipients can afford to buy computers and pay for broadband. Can the Minister confirm that the cost of broadband and purchasing computers will be reflected in an increase to the amount of money that benefit recipients will get? <BR /> <BR />Rural disparity is surfacing again, with broadband provision in rural areas being significantly weaker than in cities.”
“I wholeheartedly support the calls today to stop any potential closure of jobs and benefits offices across the North from going ahead. Given that many hundreds of people will still be required to present themselves to an office, I am deeply concerned that moving the services from the Cookstown office will have an unfair impact on those who live in rural areas, similar to the impact of closures in Ballynahinch, which is near to my constituency, and Newcastle, which is in my constituency. <BR /> <BR />Many people who live in places such as Lissan, Ardboe and Kildress and other rural areas will now face lengthy journeys, often involving multiple changes, to get to their new offices, and will spend considerable time travelling there and back — time that they could spend applying for jobs.”
“Why did the Minister not have 60 seconds to 90 seconds to meet the staff in the Great Hall today to receive their petition, which, at the very least, would have been a nice gesture?”
“The Assembly should be about delivering for children in Northern Ireland and giving them a better start in life. I commend our amendment, the other amendment, and the motion so that our children can be given a start in this process.”
“I thank the Minister for his intervention. What we are talking about here is the planned intervention across all sectors. When it becomes reactionary because of budgetary pressures, we must not rob money from particular sectors but keep it right across. <BR /> <BR />I wholeheartedly agree with the recommendation from Queen's that research should be undertaken to ensure that there are models for the delivery of nurture provision, but until that is done we believe that it should be targeted at the areas of greatest need. If we do not give our children the best start in life, we do them an enormous disservice. What is great about the motion is that it extends to children who need help the most the opportunity to avail themselves of services that will aid their education.”
“That should be done regardless of the sector that it is in. I speak —”
“We have seen and heard examples of funding not being given to certain sectors. For example, when he was Minister, Mr O'Dowd announced funding for a pilot for nurture units for schools in the Irish-medium sector, and Minister Weir then said that, owing to funding pressures, he could not provide funding for that pilot. The Queen's report recommends:”
“We believe that the funding model for nurture units should be sustainable to ensure their long-term viability. We have seen the benefits that nurture units have given to us, but they currently cover only 32 schools. We want to see it widened, and the only way in which we feel that that can be done is to ensure that a sustainable funding model is put in place. <BR /> <BR />The second part of our amendment calls on the Minister to:”
“There are repercussions from having those units in schools, and they spread around the whole school environment, providing a cascading effect of the benefit. <BR /> <BR />I also welcome the findings in the report that state that nurture groups are cost-effective, costing around £70,000 per school, and have the potential to result in significant savings further down the education system. Let us not ignore the correlation between underachievement and other elements of society further down the line. A small investment at school age could provide a greater saving to society many years later. <BR /> <BR />Our amendment has two strands. The first part comes directly from recommendation 10 in the Queen's University report:”
“The Minister is right on the money there, but it should also be highlighted that the value of nurture provision goes further, as the report tells us:”
“I welcome the fact that we have this option for children who have difficulties coping in mainstream classes. Although there are only 32 nurture groups in schools across Northern Ireland, there is no denying their success. They are a prime example of how early intervention works and how outcomes for our children are improved. The study found that nurture groups led to significant improvements in social, emotional and behavioural outcomes among children who previously had difficulty learning in a mainstream class. <BR /> <BR />I welcome the comments that the Minister has made previously on nurture groups:”
“I hope that we receive cross-party support for our amendment. I will speak to our amendment in a moment, but, first, I want to say that I am glad that we are getting the opportunity to discuss the motion. It is primarily based on the Queen's University report on nurture group provision, which, I have to say, makes for very positive reading. I welcome the fact that we are today taking the opportunity in the Chamber to discuss an issue not only that we all support but that research has proven is working for our children. <BR /> <BR />The report highlights the positive impact that nurture provision has had on our children:”
“Following his reports on the deaths of Geoffrey Ellison, Patrick Kelly, Sean Lynch and Mr I, all of which have been published in recent months, has the Minister met the Prisoner Ombudsman to discuss the recommendations? Has she met the chief inspector of Criminal Justice Inspection following its report of 27 October?”
“The Minister will be aware that some of the ways to offset Translink's budget deficit may be to stop senior smart passes, cut bus services or raise fares. Would it cause the Minister concern if that happened?”
“We remain optimistic that the process will begin to resolve the problems faced in Health and Social Care, and we look forward to seeing an action plan and detailed costs going forward. Of course we pledge to work constructively with the Minister.”