Jon Burrows
North Antrim · Ulster Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“It is invasive for someone to be cross-examined by the person who has caused them grave trauma and great hurt — the person who has victimised them. Cross-examination can be done by legal counsel, which is sound.”
“It is adversarial for good reason, but there are really important things that we can do when it comes to process, the system, dealing with cross-examination, disclosure and character references. I hope that we have a victims and witnesses commissioner who is the loudest and strongest voice for victims.”
“I agree. I rang one of the victims on the evening after the conviction and apologised. Even though I had no role over Mr Campbell, I said that I was ashamed that that man, Lloyd-Lavery, was ever employed by the party or by an MLA and ashamed that the man who gave him a character reference was a former chair of our party.”
“I welcome the Bill. It is long overdue, because our justice system in Northern Ireland is tilted towards the interests of suspects and perpetrators over and above the interests of victims and the general public.”
“There is always a balance to be struck between the rights of an unconvicted person who has been accused of a crime and the rights of the victim, and we need to get that balance right. We should never forget that there have been miscarriages of justice in our country down through the years.”
“<BR /> <BR />The Education Minister should have included the measure in the School Uniforms (Guidelines and Allowances) Bill. That would have achieved it far more efficiently, but it was not done.”
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“<BR /> <BR />I say this as a man: I find it really difficult that a man can say to a girl in school, "No, you are not going to wear trousers. You are going to wear a skirt". I find that entirely counter-intuitive. I do not take an ideological or party political position when it comes to education. I often support the Minister, and I often say that I think that he has got it wrong. The case is compelling that it is right that any girl in Northern Ireland who wants to wear trousers to school should be able to do so. For that reason, I am glad to welcome the Bill, though I am not so sure that I welcome my joining Sinn Féin's progressive alliance, but we will leave that for another day.”
“<BR /> <BR />The Education Minister should have included the measure in the School Uniforms (Guidelines and Allowances) Bill. That would have achieved it far more efficiently, but it was not done. The work that I did on recognising the right for children to go to school in a plain, unbranded coat, which will start from September, is also a significant move forward. Our children deserve to be able to go to school feeling comfortable, warm and safe. That is their choice. I say that as someone who believes in school rules and school uniforms and that the school should be able to set a school code on good order and basic things that children should have to follow, but allowing girls to wear trousers is a fundamental thing to do with what is right and wrong.”
“I will, Mr Deputy Speaker. <BR /> <BR />I welcome the Bill. It is absolutely right that, in this democracy, any girl who wants to wear a pair of trousers to school in Northern Ireland can do so. Many people found out recently that I have a master's degree in human rights law, but I rarely quote the council of this, the declaration of that or the committee on this. I just think that it is right, for all kinds of reasons, that, if a girl wants to go to school in a pair of trousers, she can do so. It is more practical. It can be warmer. It can be better for her dignity, and it can be because there are sometimes issues the like of upskirting. If a girl wants to wear trousers, she should be allowed to do so. I am pleased to support the Bill.”
“I am somewhat alarmed: this morning, I was a DUP lackey, and now I have been banded into Sinn Féin's progressive alliance. I am not sure which I prefer, but I will move on to the detail of the Bill.”
“That is a good point. It is despicable that people do that for entertainment, but there can be some nuances. An incident could be unfolding, and people could be giving first aid or intervening, but the fact that somebody has recorded it and can give the footage to the police can be useful. However, it should never be videoed for titillation or entertainment.”
“The Children's Commissioner says that the age of criminal responsibility should be 16 without exemptions, so a 15-and-a-half-year-old could shoot dead three children and not even be arrested: I find that despicable. It totally puts the rights of suspects — the murderer or the sexual abuser — way above the rights of every child that they have abused or hurt. The Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission has just made an intervention on the very issue of minimum age of criminal responsibility, and the victims issue came right at the very end: "Oh, but we now need to think about victims". Victims should be at the centre. I can keep going. We could talk about the United Nations.”
“It is adversarial for good reason, but there are really important things that we can do when it comes to process, the system, dealing with cross-examination, disclosure and character references. I hope that we have a victims and witnesses commissioner who is the loudest and strongest voice for victims. <BR /> <BR />Finally, I will say this, and it is not a criticism of those who are in human rights groups, quangos and interest groups. In my experience, they tend to have been almost infiltrated by a lobby that is very much on the side of perpetrators' rights. They are continually advocating for the rights of the perpetrator, and I rarely hear them talk about the victim. This Bill is a necessary counterweight, and I look forward to supporting it and supporting the Minister in getting the legislation precisely right.”
“Character references really need to be fully examined. <BR /> <BR />In summary, I support the Bill in principle. We need to champion victims and witnesses. We need to ensure that we recalibrate our justice system so that it gives the right protection to victims and witnesses. A lot of things can be done without the expense of even impinging on a suspect's rights. It is often about how things are done; for example, the make-up of the court, the room that you can sit in, the way in which you are communicated with and the support that you get. A lot of it does not affect the suspect's ability to defend themselves but is about the support that the victim gets through that adversarial process.”
“I agree. I rang one of the victims on the evening after the conviction and apologised. Even though I had no role over Mr Campbell, I said that I was ashamed that that man, Lloyd-Lavery, was ever employed by the party or by an MLA and ashamed that the man who gave him a character reference was a former chair of our party. That is the way in which I dealt with that. The Member is right: it compounds the trauma. <BR /> <BR />The Justice Minister is right about those who commit sexual offences in particular: they are groomers. My school had Dr Lindsay Brown, the RE teacher. He was a pillar of society. He volunteered for every youth event, gave money to charity, was the most overtly pleasant person and made himself indispensable to the community, yet he was abusing my friends. Look: those people have two faces.”
“I agree entirely. Pre-conviction references in what would be classed almost as clandestine crimes — crimes that are committed out of public sight — are practically valueless because what the public or your work colleagues see is entirely different from how you behave at home or online. Therefore, they have really limited value. Frankly, I do not know why anybody would give a post-conviction character reference because, a, its value is so limited and, b, they trash their own character.”
“I will give way to the Minister in one second. <BR /> <BR />I said that, if he had still been a member of my party when he gave that reference, he would not have been a member of my party the day after. I also find it disturbing that the chief executive of the Law Society would give a character reference to someone convicted of a sexual assault. Frankly, that person should not still be in post. That is my view. <BR /> <BR />I will give way to the Minister.”
“However, post-conviction character references for sexual offences are obscene, because the person who gives such a reference does so knowing that it will be read out when someone has just been convicted of a sexual offence. Their character is neither here nor there. Those references are obscene. I condemned utterly David Campbell for giving that reference.”
“We need to caveat everything that we do with that, but I entirely agree that there should be real restrictions and a victim's voice in the disclosure exercise. <BR /> <BR />I come to character references. William Lloyd-Lavery was mentioned: it is despicable that two character references were given to that man. We need to separate for the public the two types of character reference, which are fundamentally different. One is given prior to conviction, which is useful for a court. Any defendant should be entitled to say, "I know people who can say that I would not act like that and have no propensity to act like that". That is entirely different.”
“It is invasive for someone to be cross-examined by the person who has caused them grave trauma and great hurt — the person who has victimised them. Cross-examination can be done by legal counsel, which is sound. <BR /> <BR />On disclosure, victims of sexual offences should not have dragged into court, as the result of a fishing expedition, tittle-tattle and salaciousness about things from their private life. That is so important. That is a chill factor for people in making and sustaining a complaint. The victim must have a voice to ensure that the disclosure process is properly informed and that irrelevant material is not brought in, while we maintain a suspect's right to get any information that is relevant to finding out the truth. The justice system should support and be empathetic to victims, but it is there to get the truth.”
“There is always a balance to be struck between the rights of an unconvicted person who has been accused of a crime and the rights of the victim, and we need to get that balance right. We should never forget that there have been miscarriages of justice in our country down through the years. It is important that a person who has been accused of a crime — remember that they have to be accused to a reasonable standard of doubt — has protection and that they are able to get full disclosure, where appropriate, and to have the victim's account cross-examined appropriately, because their liberty, reputation and future life are at stake. However, we need to make some changes. I agree that we should support the changes outlined re the cross-examination of victims.”
“I welcome the Bill. It is long overdue, because our justice system in Northern Ireland is tilted towards the interests of suspects and perpetrators over and above the interests of victims and the general public. I hope that the Bill will go some way to recalibrating and reorienting our justice system back to being what it should always be, which is victim-focused. The balance has got out of kilter, and I will come back to that. It is absolutely right that a Commissioner for Victims and Witnesses is placed on a statutory footing to champion processes, culture and safeguards and to understand the lived experiences of victims. <BR /> <BR />There has been much talk about special measures and changing parts of the legal procedure, and such change is well overdue.”
“Minister, I commend you for the substantial progress being made under your leadership and, more important, the work of the men and women of our great health service. Will you agree that it is important that we now go faster and further in trying to reduce waiting lists and improve access to the health service and do all that we can to build momentum, get a Budget agreed and deliver for the people?”
“I will do my own rapid review in our party if we need to look at things, but the Prime Minister needs to grip this. This was a privy counsellor and a senior politician. People in Westminster will have seen this behaviour, and it cuts across all parties. We need a proper inquiry, and we need it now.”
“This goes to the heart of what aspects of the Church knew, what politicians knew and what political parties knew; indeed, there is an allegation about what different police services knew or what the security services knew. Therefore, we need facts. We need to make sure that whoever is doing that review has access to all of the information and material. We need to learn lessons here. Someone who was a senior parliamentarian, who was knighted, who was on the Privy Council and who had grace and favour and access was acting in a way that would see you thrown out of a job in Tesco. There can be no excuse for his getting away with that. <BR /> <BR />My thoughts are with the victim. This needs to be a defining moment in our politics.”
“If he was acting in the way that was portrayed in the 'Spotlight' programme, he was extremely vulnerable to anyone trying to extort him or make him vulnerable to any form of blackmail. That needs to be addressed. <BR /> <BR />If someone makes an allegation of sexual assault or any other crime against anybody, there is not just a responsibility to deal with it criminally, if the victim wishes, but a safeguarding responsibility that falls on any organisation. It is unforgivable if safeguarding was not discharged in the case where allegations were made. <BR /> <BR />The need for a full inquiry into this is so important that I am calling on the Government. I have written to the Prime Minister today. We need a proper inquiry.”
“There are people who are having their assets stripped so that they can pay for nursing homes and care homes at the end of their life, having done the right thing for their whole life. That needs to be addressed. <BR /> <BR />There are two aspects to this. There is the criminality of Jeffrey Donaldson. I take it in good faith, unless it is proved otherwise, that nobody knew that he was abusing those young girls. However, his behaviour was in plain sight, it seems. He was leading a double life. He was hypocritical. He was telling people to do as he said, not do as he did. That cannot be acceptable. It cannot be acceptable that that was not brought to the attention of the electorate. It cannot be acceptable that he was a blackmail risk in the United Kingdom.”
“I praise again the victims who gave evidence against Jeffrey Donaldson, and I hope that it sends a message to everyone in our society that, no matter who you are, you can be held to account. It is the time for higher standards of integrity and honesty in our politics, and I hope that the rest of the Members join in my call for forfeiture mechanisms to be put into our pension scheme so that those who are convicted of sexual crimes can have their pension stripped from them. It is an abiding scandal that Jeffrey Donaldson will get up to £60,000 a year in prison having been convicted of rape and that, if anything happens to him, the survivor's pension will go to the lady who aided and abetted that rape. That has to end.”
“On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. For clarity, as the Minister's contribution moves on, am I entitled to try to make an intervention when different facts emerge even though the Minister may not want to accept it? Am I still entitled to ask the Member to give way?”
“I was asking the Deputy Speaker for clarity. Can the Minister tell a Member not to ask for interventions?”
“On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. Is it in order for a Member to be told not to seek an intervention?”
“I ask Members on the other side of the House to reflect on that.”
“I will give a tangible example to address some of the concerns. Adam Graham was charged with two rapes in Scotland. Post-charge, Adam Graham declared that he was a woman. Under the deficient guidance for the Scottish Prison Service, the perpetrator was convicted and went to a female prison. The policy was deficient. That is a real-life example of where the biological sex of the man must be followed. While there are genuine trans people who are going through issues — gender dysphoria or whatever it might be — there will be people who could, post-charge or post-arrest, declare themselves to be a woman and end up in a women's prison. It happened in Scotland. Adam Graham became Isla Bryson and ended up in a female prison in Scotland, despite being charged with and later convicted of rape. That is real life. It is a real scenario.”
“Does the Member agree that it is anathema to safety in our prisons that, under the current position, which you are trying to reverse, biological males who are fully intact could, despite having been convicted of a sexual crime, be housed in a prison with females?”
“I commend the amendment. My party will support it.”
“For centuries, men and women have been segregated in different prison establishments and in different cells in a police station. That is for good reason: women are especially vulnerable to violent attack and, indeed, to sexual assault. It would be a dereliction of duty by everybody in the Chamber if we were to allow a biological man into a prison estate with biological women because Members think that it is the progressive thing to do. It is not progressive for the victims of any future offence. It is not progressive for the women who would be endangered. <BR /> <BR />I plead with Members: abandon the ideological zeal; return to common sense. Let us reorientate ourselves in the real world that everyone else has moved on to and now occupies. We give trans people respect, but we do not allow that to trump safety in our prisons.”
“I will give way in one second. <BR /> <BR />To do so would violate the right to safety of every woman in our prisons, many of whom are vulnerable. You have a moment of truth: if there is a crisis or a grave attack on a woman, the responsibility will lie with those who have not done the right thing here tonight. We should not need to wait for updated advice on what the Supreme Court really meant: it is the Supreme Court. Unfortunately, some of the equality bodies in this country have been captured by an ideology, and we need to ensure that we do not get captured too. <BR /> <BR />In conclusion, I commend Mr Gaston for tabling his amendment. I do so without using any inflammatory or discriminatory language against trans people, who should have dignity and respect.”
“Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I will move on very swiftly because I always respect the role of the Chair. <BR /> <BR />The point that I am making is that there are practical differences that people practically realise, because there is a difference between men and women. It is in every single cell in our bodies. We had the same issue in last week's debate on the minimum age of criminal responsibility, where, unfortunately, the idea that we are positioned in some progressive spectrum was causing people to defy common sense and endanger women once again. I plead with the legislators in the Chamber to change their minds and simply say that, in Northern Ireland, we will not allow a biologically intact male into our female prisons.”
“This is not an operational detail but a fundamental reality: men should not be in prison with women. <BR /> <BR />People are ideologically captured on the opposite side of the House and cannot move on as the rest of the world has. Yes, a trans person has the right to say, "I want to identify as a woman". In sport, they have the right to say, "I wish to identify as a woman", but that does not mean that you let a biological man play rugby against women, because that would do physical damage to the women. It does not mean that you allow a biological man, even though they call themselves a woman, to take part in a long jump contest against a woman. Why?”
“It is not me who is in a culture war or who wants to run down trans people. If a trans person is attacked or discriminated against, the perpetrator should be held to account. That does not mean, however, that feelings trump facts or that ideological zeal gets in the way of safety in our prison estate. It is, as it has been for a very long time, a case of men and women being kept separately. Under the Police and Criminal Evidence (Northern Ireland) Order 1989, you can, if required, put two prisoners in the same police cell, but you never put a man and a woman together because there is a risk of physical or sexual assault. We are saying in this place that we will leave that to the individual policy decision of someone in the Prison Service. We will literally entrust to them the application of a fundamental piece of law.”
“People are entitled to make points of order and interventions. Last week, I was accused of using a prop simply because I had a speech in my hand. <BR /> <BR />I will get back to the main facts. The Supreme Court was clear in that seminal case that, under the Equality Act, the definition of a man was a biological man, and the definition of a woman was a biological woman. When you look at the purpose of that case, you see that, surely, it applies logically when we are deciding which prison people should go into. I say this to the legislators in the Chamber who seem to resist supporting an amendment that, anywhere else in the United Kingdom, would have majority support: they are doing so not because of facts but, I suspect, because the proposer of the amendment is Mr Gaston or because they themselves are in a culture war.”
“I will not give way any more, because I have been misquoted. <BR /> <BR />A man has been identifying himself as a female. That is preposterous. Let us look at the logical conclusion and the Supreme Court case. The Supreme Court was clear that, yes, trans people have rights, including an article 8 right to freedom of private life and privacy and all kinds of other rights, but that that right does not trump the rights, in primary law, to allow men and women to be segregated safely, because safety is the primary duty of the state. It is a qualified right. On that side of the House, stretching from Alliance through to Sinn Féin, we have a kind of alliance that is now defying the Supreme Court and seems to refuse to allow a woman to go into a prison —.”
“Let us be very clear on this: if someone who is trans is a biological man and is put in a women's prison, they are stronger than most women, they have a propensity to commit crimes and there are vulnerable women upon which those crimes can be inflicted. We are merely saying that we are going to airbrush out the fact that they are a biological man because the person identifies as a woman. We had the shocking case in Scotland where a man was convicted of rape, identified as a woman and was going to go to a female prison. This Executive and this Assembly believe in tackling violence against women and girls, yet we would permit a man to be in a prison with women because the man identifies —.”
“Men have physical capabilities that, person for person, are greater than women's. They are larger and stronger than women in general. Women in prison are particularly vulnerable. They are in a confined space. They are somewhere where the state should keep them safe, and it is a well-established premise that that is the reason why we have males and females in different prisons. I see one of the Alliance Members shaking his head. Right across the United Kingdom and the Western World, men and women are kept in different prisons. <BR /> <BR />The issue has come into sharp relief because of trans issues. That is why we have had a very useful Supreme Court judgement, which people seem to want to dismiss.”
“I am not sure that we are having interjections from the Floor, but I will not interfere with the Deputy Speaker's role. <BR /> <BR />I repeat for absolute clarity: the people in prison, by definition — it may not fit the woolly liberal world that some people want to live in — have a propensity to commit crime. That is why they are in prison. They have generally reached a threshold at which alternatives to prison have not worked. Many of them are in prison for violent and sexual crime, and I repeat what I said before: the overwhelming number of violent and sexual criminals in any society anywhere in the world are men. That is a stain on our character and not something that we should be proud of. About 90% of all crimes are committed by men — certainly violent and sexual crimes.”
“Absolutely. We will review Hansard at the end of the day, and I will send a copy to the Justice Minister.”
“Disproportionately, the victims of violent and sexual crimes are biological women. As a straightforward matter of fact, and whilst there are some caveats to this, generally speaking, a man is physically stronger than a woman. They do not participate in sports together, because men have a larger physical size. They also have more of a propensity to commit violent crime. In our prisons, we have people who, by their very nature because they are in prison, have shown a propensity to commit crime and to inflict violence or sexual crimes on others.”
“At its heart, this is a simple premise. First, I commend Mr Frew for tabling amendment No 96, which we will support: it is a good amendment. <BR /> <BR />Amendment No 97 is a classic example of when we should be dealing with facts. There should be no place for feelings when we are dealing with legislation. We should treat trans people with compassion. You will never hear me use inflammatory language or insult trans people because they should be treated with dignity and respect. However, we are legislating to make sure that our prison estate is safe. <BR /> <BR />There is a fundamental fact that some people do not want to accept, and they gaslight women when they fail to accept it. The vast majority of violent and sexual crime is committed by biological men. That is the case the world over.”
“I just want to clarify something. You said that a trans man would be held in a women's prison and that would increase the risk. That would be a biological woman who could not commit an offence such as rape and would not have the extra strength that men have vis-à-vis women. I am trying to understand it.”
“Sorry, Mr Deputy Speaker. It is the heat.”
“Can the Member offer a reassurance that that will continue so that we know the difference and know that only clearly identified pre-stun halal meat will be available?”
“I have full respect for our diverse communities across the United Kingdom. It is important that, in Northern Ireland, we have only halal meat products from animals that have been stunned. I am grateful for the reassurance from the Member representing the Assembly Commission that that is the case in our Blue Flax restaurant. Thank you.”
“I have, as is right, written to the Forfeiture Committee in the hope that he will be stripped of his knighthood. As far as I am aware, there is no way of removing the lavish, taxpayer-funded pension that will go into his bank account every month when he is in prison. In cases such as this, that is appalling. <BR /> <BR />This country owes the victims a huge debt of gratitude. They did the most difficult thing imaginable, and, in doing so, they have sent a signal to everyone that we are all equal under the law. If you are a victim of crime, come forward. You can get justice.”
“We should always remember, however, as they will have known, that anonymity does not spare you the ordeal of reliving an incident and giving evidence to the police and in court about the most invasive, vile abuse of your body by the perpetrator. It does not spare you cross-examination and being called a liar, as Jeffrey Donaldson accused them of being. <BR /> <BR />The sentencing will be a matter for the judge independently, but only the most severe sentence is appropriate. Not only were they vile crimes against the most vulnerable children but Donaldson showed no remorse. He turned the tables on the victims and said that they were the liars. They had to watch him walk around leading a double life, even having the audacity to wear a Christian symbol on his lapel as he walked into court. He stands in disgrace.”
“<BR /> <BR />They got justice, and there is a powerful lesson in that for everyone across the United Kingdom and across these islands: no matter the accuser, the power that the accused has or how long ago the crime occurred, there is a justice system in which we are all equal; the Police Service will follow the evidence without fear or favour; the Public Prosecution Service (PPS) will do its job without fear or favour; and the judge and jury will do their job impartially and professionally. If any good comes from this, I hope that it is that more victims come forward against anyone in our country who is a predator or sexual abuser. <BR /> <BR />The victims have anonymity, and that should absolutely be protected.”
“On behalf of the Ulster Unionist Party, I praise the courage and tenacity of the victims of Jeffrey Donaldson. They showed remarkable courage in giving the evidence that they did and in taking the case to court. While we are all equal under the law — that is an important lesson — they knew full well that they were not giving evidence against a private citizen. They knew the level of public and media scrutiny and attention that the case would invoke, yet they gave evidence.”