Jon Burrows
North Antrim · Ulster Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“It is invasive for someone to be cross-examined by the person who has caused them grave trauma and great hurt — the person who has victimised them. Cross-examination can be done by legal counsel, which is sound.”
“It is adversarial for good reason, but there are really important things that we can do when it comes to process, the system, dealing with cross-examination, disclosure and character references. I hope that we have a victims and witnesses commissioner who is the loudest and strongest voice for victims.”
“I agree. I rang one of the victims on the evening after the conviction and apologised. Even though I had no role over Mr Campbell, I said that I was ashamed that that man, Lloyd-Lavery, was ever employed by the party or by an MLA and ashamed that the man who gave him a character reference was a former chair of our party.”
“I welcome the Bill. It is long overdue, because our justice system in Northern Ireland is tilted towards the interests of suspects and perpetrators over and above the interests of victims and the general public.”
“There is always a balance to be struck between the rights of an unconvicted person who has been accused of a crime and the rights of the victim, and we need to get that balance right. We should never forget that there have been miscarriages of justice in our country down through the years.”
“<BR /> <BR />The Education Minister should have included the measure in the School Uniforms (Guidelines and Allowances) Bill. That would have achieved it far more efficiently, but it was not done.”
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“In all seriousness, how we get the balance right between looking after our climate in the long term and how we look after jobs and lives and have the ability to build hospitals, roads and all the other infrastructure that we need is one of the defining challenges of our time. How do we have food security and how do we help with the cost of living, particularly for those who have the least? Often, those who have the most to say about climate live in the biggest homes and have the most disposable income. We need to live in the real world. <BR /> <BR />I read recently that a plane on its journey changes its flight path about every five minutes. When we start on a journey of climate change looking ahead to 2050, it is inevitable that we will sometimes have to change our flight path, because we change with the facts.”
“I will avoid mentioning the T-word — Trump — lest I get in trouble.”
“I imagine that any Member could put a Member's Bill to any Minister stating that a workforce plan for x, y and z is needed. On that basis, I am not minded to support the Bill, but I will listen to what the Minister has to say so that he can convince me and my party that he is discharging his important statutory obligation to the Irish-medium sector.”
“I take the point that Mr Mathison makes in his intervention. Why it has not been done since 1998, I have absolutely no idea, but I have heard the Minister and will therefore wait to see what he says when he is on his feet later. He will outline the action that he is taking. He will put that on the record in Hansard. He has answered questions about a number of things that he is doing, and he has done so succinctly. <BR /> <BR />I will cut to the chase. I suspect that the Bill will proceed to Committee Stage, and the Committee will then scrutinise it. I do not believe that there is a need for another Member's Bill to deal with a pre-existing statutory obligation. We should be dealing with any omissions in the Minister's duties through scrutiny and accountability, not through creating more legislation.”
“I thank the Minister for his intervention. I concur, and I was going to address that point. The key to making informed decisions during the debate would be to hear first what the Minister is doing to discharge his current statutory obligation and then make our points, but it is being done the wrong way around. I have, however, heard enough so far — I will listen to what the Minister has to say later — to know that there is a pre-existing statutory duty. I do not think that there is a need for fresh legislation to replicate that statutory duty, even if some think that there is.”
“That is a creative reason, Mr Deputy Speaker, and I thank Mr Sheehan for his intervention. It is a bit like a judicial review: a judge may say that it is perfectly tenable to apply for a judicial review and for it to be heard, but that does not mean that you have to agree with the issue being forward for review. It was quite within process for the Speaker to say, "Mr Sheehan, bring your private Member's Bill". However, as legislators, we can still say, "I personally do not think that it is necessary".”
“It is also an additional challenge to get male teachers. We do not talk enough about the lack of male teachers throughout our education sector in our schools and the lack of positive role-modelling that that brings. <BR /> <BR />Whilst I supported yesterday's Bill for it to go through to the next stage, my problem with this Bill is that there is an existing statutory duty. We should hold the Minister to account as to how well he is discharging his statutory duty through Assembly questions for oral answer, questions for written answer and the Education Committee. I will wait to hear what the Minister says when he gets to his feet and tells the Assembly what he is doing, but, for me, in the first instance, it is not good practice to bring a stand-alone Bill to deal with a pre-existing statutory duty.”
“When I opened my comments on Mr Baker's private Member's Bill yesterday, I said that there is nothing more important than our young people and making sure that they have the skills, support, infrastructure and buildings that allow them to thrive. That includes the Irish-medium sector. I was criticised by some when I divulged that a member of my family was trying to learn a bit of Irish so that she could order me a pint of Guinness when we were in Donegal. I have no objection to the Irish language. It is a lovely language. <BR /> <BR />The Bill sponsor is right: there are unique factors in the Irish-medium sector. If you need a speech and language therapist, they also need to speak Irish. If you are struggling to get a physics teacher or a chemistry or a maths teacher, Mr Martin is right: it is an additional burden.”
“I am happy to support it in order to get it through to its next stage, where we will look at it in detail on the Education Committee, but we need to make sure that we get the best value for our money and that, collectively, we take responsibility for tackling poverty and focus on the real issues that affect us in Northern Ireland. <BR /> <BR />Thank you, Madam Principal Deputy Speaker.”
“Thank you, Madam Principal Deputy Speaker. I apologise. I got carried away. Yes, there was a poverty of truth there, because I chastised Mr Trump. <BR /> <BR />I will move straight back to the matter in hand. <BR /> <BR />If the Bill costs £20 million a year, funding it would be eminently achievable if there were a bit of wise stewardship of public money in this place corporately. Some £40 million has been spent on taxis, while procurement is an indictment of our public service. We waste money hand over fist. Five times that amount has been spent on the A5. That money could have fed our children for five years. Some £100 million has been spent on the A5, yet not a single metre of tarmac has been laid. <BR /> <BR />A number of issues are raised by the Bill, but the Bill also highlights our dysfunctionality.”
“, Madam Principal Deputy Speaker. I challenged Mr Trump. I went with a letter in my hand, and I said, "Mr Trump, I challenge you about your conduct".”
“My mate Trump? How he is my mate I do not know. I will correct the Member, even though we are straying from the issue before us, because it is —.”
“The responsible thing to do, especially given the track record of the Assembly, is to scrutinise legislation deeply, vote it through to the next stage and then delve into it in granular detail, not just wave it through because it sounds like a good idea. I welcome the fact that we are dealing with legislation. It makes a refreshing change from questions for urgent oral answer, non-binding motions, Matters of the Day and Venezuela, Iran and all the other global stuff that comes before —.”
“We need to make sure that we spend wisely, that money is targeted and that we get the best value for our money. <BR /> <BR />I will give way, after which I will conclude.”
“No, I will not give way. <BR /> <BR />People looking in will think that that is mad, that it is no way in which to run a Government and that it should be a shared responsibility. I just wanted to make those broad points. <BR /> <BR />I am happy that we will vote the Bill through to its scrutiny stage, but scrutiny is required. That is not a blank cheque or a guarantee that we will support the Bill in any way, shape or form, but the issue is still important, so we should fully explore it. To make sure that it is the very best money that we can spend, however, we need to look at other issues, because every penny that we spend on one thing is not spent on something else, be that on treating black mould in classrooms, on classroom assistants, on training or on books.”
“I thank the Minister for his contribution. I was going to come on to free hospital car parking, because it is of noble intent. Looking in from the outside, you would think that it would be a jolly good thing to do, but, of course, it has consequences elsewhere. That is what we need to guard against, but there is merit in scrutinising this Bill further. <BR /> <BR />I will say this to Mr Baker: your party is the biggest party in the Executive and includes the First Minister and the Finance Minister. People looking in from outside will say, "How on earth is it the case in our system of government that a Back-Bench MLA from a party of government can introduce a private Member's Bill that, the Minister of Education in the same Government will say, he cannot afford and when the person who is in charge of the money is in that Member's party?".”
“Sometimes I am puzzled by this place. I will come on to that in a second when I talk about puzzles. <BR /> <BR />The Bill has a noble intent. It is on a very important issue. We can look at it in detail at the Education Committee, but we need to scrutinise it and make sure that it is affordable and that it is not just a good use of money but the best use of money, because that money comes from somewhere else. There is no such thing as paying Peter and not taking from Paul. The money has to come from somewhere. Where will it come from? Should it come from more places than just the Education budget? Are we to have a multi-year Budget? Will all those things be decided?”
“It is nothing to do with money; it is a fact that some parents can be irresponsible. We need to make sure that, if the state is to intervene and give money to people for their children's food, it actually ends up in their children's mouths. That is a sensible step to take. We should not shy away from that. We are legislators, after all. <BR /> <BR />Mr Mathison raised a good point about the fact that there are children whose parents are just under the threshold. They do not get free school meals all the way through term time, and, suddenly, not only will they not get them then but those who get them will continue to get them during the summer. That is another thing that we need to work through and be sure that we are doing the right thing.”
“Clearly, there is a gap when someone needs support during term time but suddenly cannot get it during holiday time. Therefore, there is almost a logical appeal to what Mr Baker has put forward. That is why we will vote to let the Bill go through to the scrutiny stage. We need to scrutinise the Bill, because, of course, the Chamber does not have a universally great record of considering unintended consequences. There are some issues, such as whether the payments will have an impact on someone's universal credit payments. <BR /> <BR />Some people do not want to say this, but I will say it: some parents — just a few — are irresponsible. The majority of parents are responsible. There are parents who are millionaires and are irresponsible, and there are parents who have nothing but are responsible.”
“There were many days when I left a home feeling almost ashamed at the situation in which I found myself in society; you have so much and are giving something to people who have literally nothing and are waiting for the doorbell to ring for you to feed them. Of course, there are the long-term impacts of not getting quality, nutritious meals on your education, health and the age to which you live. We know that there are places where people live 10 years longer than somebody who lives round the corner because of health inequalities and poverty. It has an impact on the justice system. All the poverty stuff has a longer-term impact. <BR /> <BR />Nobody could argue that we should not make sure that our children and young people get nutritious meals every day.”
“I will keep my comments broad and high-level. I thank the Bill sponsor for bringing it to the House. The intent is noble, and the debate is necessary. It is something that we should discuss. I will, therefore, support the Bill's progress to the next stage so that we can give it proper scrutiny. However, scrutiny it does need. <BR /> <BR />Let me just say this at the outset: there is no greater issue than dealing with young people — our future — the most vulnerable and those who are hungry. I used to be a food bank volunteer before I came into politics. We used to go round with hampers of food. It was really humbling when the door opened and a child took the food from your hand. They were literally waiting for that food in order to have their meal.”
“That is a powerful message for us all about the impact that we can have on the lives of others by supporting and inspiring them to fulfil their dreams. <BR /> <BR />Rory McIlroy is at the pinnacle of his sport. He is a legend and will be one for ever. We are proud that he is from here. He is a lesson to us all in how we should promote Northern Ireland and value those who give us the inspiration and the support to get where we are. I pay tribute to Rory McIlroy. I look forward to his winning more majors and achieving, for the first time, a hat-trick of Masters wins next April. Well done, Rory.”
“Rory has put Northern Ireland on the golfing map. We have had some great champions from Northern Ireland, such as Darren Clarke and, of course, Graeme McDowell, but no one has quite captured the public imagination like or had the success of Rory McIlroy. This country should build on that success and become the tourist destination of choice for golf across the world. The Executive should be calling for things such as a reduction in VAT for the hospitality and tourism sector to capitalise on the interest that there is in Northern Ireland as a tourist and golfing destination. <BR /> <BR />One of the things about Rory McIlroy is his humility. He puts his success down largely to his parents: for the sacrifice that they made at the start of his career, for their support and for what they had to give up to take him around and fund his success.”
“I join in the tributes to Rory McIlroy, the greatest golfer who has ever emerged from the United Kingdom and from these islands, if you want to take the broadest possible view of it, and the greatest sports star whom Northern Ireland has produced. He confirmed himself last night as belonging to the pantheon of sporting greats. Only four players have won back-to-back Masters titles: Jack Nicklaus, Nick Faldo, Tiger Woods and now Rory McIlroy, our own Holywood hero. <BR /> <BR />It is not just about Rory's excellence and the fact that he is now a living legend but about what he brings to Northern Ireland. He is an ambassador for Northern Ireland. It was wonderful to see the coverage flash between the Masters and Holywood Golf Club, and I understand that those pictures went out on the American networks also.”
“I will not give way. I am glad that there will be summer schemes this year. We need to look at getting things sorted for next year, but we also need to look at ourselves. Sackcloth and ashes are in order today. The way in which we are treating the people of Northern Ireland is shameful. I support our amendment No 2.”
“I sit on the Education Committee, and, this year, we have not debated school nurses, but we have debated Gaza. That is a disgrace, but it is what is happening across the piece. We fail to focus on the right things, we fail to fix the right things, we fail to reform this place and then we point-score and finger-point.”
“This is not just about respite for the parents. It is about the opportunity for the special educational needs child to be able to get a job in the future, perhaps, or to live independently. All of that is set back when you have those big gaps: the parents cannot work, and there is desperation because they wait for so long for a diagnosis. <BR /> <BR />That is on all of us, because we have failed to fix things. We could find £600 million — if that is what is required — if we did not have so much waste. How much money are we wasting on procurement that has not been properly sorted out? Why is it that school principals, as well as every other public-sector body, spend 400% more to get a job done than it would cost if a local trader were to do it? That is where the money is going. There is vast waste and a failure to reform.”
“<BR /> <BR />We fail SEN pupils in all kinds of ways. We could not get even two weeks of summer schemes up and running this year. Thankfully, the intervention has been made, but summer schemes should be much longer. Why on earth are special schools shut for nine weeks? That is something that the Assembly needs to deal with. Parents whose children attend special schools tell me that they want to work. They want to contribute to the workforce and have a career but they cannot because they do not get enough support through childcare, respite and summer schemes. It is penny wise and pound foolish because those parents tell me that the progress that their child makes throughout term time is often set back when they are not at school for seven of the nine weeks, and they then have to play catch-up.”
“No, I am not going to give way. <BR /> <BR />There are issues for the Education Authority to look at. Those include workforce planning, so that there can be sustainable schemes running throughout the summer, and the EA needs to consider why those who are skilled and trained in term time are not the same people who deliver the summer schemes. We need to look at how we support classroom assistants. As I said in my maiden speech, we say that we value them but that is not recognised in their pay packets or their accreditation. They get to the top of their pay scales far too soon. Retention is a major issue, and because there is sometimes a desperation to get classroom assistants, we have the wrong people doing an important job, although the vast majority of them do it very well. Good classroom assistants are worth their weight in gold.”
“The fact that the paper from the Minister of Education — I have been critical of some of his work and supportive of other aspects of his work — has not been put on the Executive table is a fundamental failure, in the same way that other papers do not get on the Executive table because they are vetoed, which is totally inappropriate.”
“I will not give way. <BR /> <BR />— we are failing to address them. That failure is because we have failed to fix, reform and focus on things. <BR /> <BR />Let me deal for a second with the issue of special educational needs children. The exponential rise in the number of children with additional needs has still not been properly and strategically addressed. The number is growing for all kinds of reasons. That comes with a huge cost that the Executive must address collectively, but we have not addressed it collectively.”
“I will not give way. I will come back to you towards the end. <BR /> <BR />Unfortunately, there has already been finger-pointing and point-scoring, but what the people of Northern Ireland want is collective responsibility. This is just the latest in a litany of failures by the body politic in Northern Ireland to sort out and deliver things. We can point at this issue but we can also point to people who cannot get a home built or a business expanded because the sewerage system is over capacity. There are problems everywhere that we look, and collectively —”
“Thank you, Mr Speaker. It is clearly a fundamental moral duty on those of us who are leaders and legislators to support the most vulnerable in society, and there are none more vulnerable than special educational needs children, along with their parents, carers and educators and those who, increasingly, get educated alongside them, sometimes in mainstream schools. That is a duty that we fail in time and time again. <BR /> <BR />What happened last week should never have happened. We own a collective responsibility for the distress that parents, pupils and educators feel.”
“It is good that the Minister is looking up and out for best practice across the world. Will he instruct his officials to do any follow-ups, particularly with US training colleges, to embed those transatlantic practices here?”
“There was nothing untruthful about what I said, Mr Deputy Speaker.”
“I made a factual point that services were commissioned in 2013. There is correspondence signed by that Minister that shows that they were.”
“The motion uses the phrase "to advance transgender ideology". If that is a reference to the Health Department, I should put it on the public record for my friends in the DUP that the gender services clinic was introduced in 2013 by a DUP Minister.”
“Whenever questions for written answer are put to your Department, Minister, that is the response that we get back. No context is provided, and no explanation is given: we get just a direct, blunt answer. We do not know what we do not know, because we are not told.”
“When we went to Washington, we flew economy and we used the cheapest way to get into town. That is where you set the example.”
“When we do pass legislation, it is often not very good, as we have seen with the A5 or free hospital car parking. We talk about wasting money, but we are role-modelling the greatest waste of money going. We sit and debate, for days at a time, the use of a word in the Chamber or a Committee while women are getting killed on our streets. <BR /> <BR />I look at the collective performance of the Executive, the attitude towards public money, the failure to grip performance issues in the Northern Ireland Civil Service and the fact that procurement is lacking any common sense. Then I look at the Health Minister, who was able to find £300 million, and I see that it is leadership that is missing, as well as competence. <BR /> <BR />I will go back to the nub of the story.”
“Wait for it, for an organisation that has performance issues, it is 20 out of 24,000. It is 0·09%. The rest of them are highly competent, yet the organisation is not. It does not make sense. <BR /> <BR />We see it again with agency contracts. They are up by 76%. The cost for the past two years has doubled from £65 million to £135 million. This entire place should be put in special measures, yet we bring a motion. It shows that we are bringing a non-binding motion to deal with waste. No matter how we vote tonight, nothing will change. How many people are we keeping here this evening to work in Hansard and to keep the lights running? It is just a waste of money. It is like a sixth-form debating society tonight. Look at the amount of legislation that we pass — virtually none.”
“When we were out there, I stayed with him, and we stayed out of town. One day, I got on a bike, and I rode to Capitol Hill in an Uber, or whatever it is called. We used the cheapest transport that we could get because we treat public money well. <BR /> <BR />I asked the Minister of Finance, "Who is responsible for the performance management of the head of the Northern Ireland Civil Service?", but he did not know. It seems to me that no one is responsible for the person at the very top who gets paid as much as the Prime Minister. Then, we wonder why there is no accountability throughout the Civil Service. I asked "How many members of the Civil Service — and it is not a dig at the hardworking men and women in the Civil Service — have been classified as underperforming?".”
“If you ask how much it costs to paint a wall, the school principal will say that it could be done for £1,000, but they have to pay £4,000 because they have to go through procurement. Big projects would cost £20,000, but they pay £80,000 because they have to go through procurement. A simple trusted trader scheme could be set up, but we waste money because we do not treat it as our own. <BR /> <BR />There is no role-modelling in here, except from our Health Minister, who achieved unprecedented in-year savings of £300 million by properly stewarding money. I will tell you where that comes from. It comes from a culture of valuing taxpayers' money. When the Health Minister went to Washington, he got on the plane and turned right, like every other taxpayer, and got an economy seat.”
“Some special educational needs children need support to get to school, but I asked questions about that. The taxi companies very quickly said to the Education Minister, "Take £1 million back". That is how rubbish the contract was. I was in the back of a taxi coming back from Belfast one night. The man recognised me, and he said, "Mr Burrows, we waited for somebody to ask the question. I did not even have to do night work any more. I just worked nine-to-five". They were charging up to £83 a mile, yet we lecture others. It is totally unacceptable. There is also staggering waste elsewhere. <BR /> <BR />It is the same with procurement. I go to schools all the time, and the same happens throughout the public sector.”
“It seems to me that this is a giant exercise of the pot calling the kettle black because the waste that is caused and role-modelled by this place is the cause of the waste throughout the public sector. <BR /> <BR />The past 20 years have not been good. The Executive and Assembly have overpromised and under-delivered. I will run through some examples, but, before I do, the Sinn Féin Member talked about welcoming the open-book exercise by the British Treasury. Open book? Special measures are what the Executive are in because of the waste and the continued blame being placed on the Exchequer in the United Kingdom. Of course, we should lobby for more money, but we get more than £18 billion to divide between two million citizens. That is a significant amount of money, but we waste it. One example is £40 million being spent on taxis to schools.”
“Given the impact that the Economy Minister has on foreign investors, I am glad that Sinn Féin avoided Washington last week. Will she confirm whether, during the meeting with Cantor Fitzgerald, before it pulled its investment, there was any discussion about American foreign policy? Yes or no?”
“What made it worse was that a senior member of the ombudsman's office took part in the BBC 'Spotlight' programme and gave validity to Chris Moore's false allegations. Complaints were made to the BBC and the ombudsman; they were brushed under the carpet. Fresh complaints have been made against Chris Moore and the BBC. The programme should never have gone out. No due diligence was carried out, and there was no evidence or truth to it. The widow of Gary Meyer went to her grave waiting for the truth; she did not get it. There needs to be accountability and an end to the besmirching of the proud reputation of the Royal Ulster Constabulary.”
“The Police Ombudsman took 10 years to come to the conclusion that the guns involved had not been in the hands of RUC Special Branch at any time. In fact, inquiries conducted since show that Chris Moore relied on a whistle-blower who had left the relevant department six years before these guns got into the hands of the IRA, let alone Special Branch, which they never did. The journalist did not reveal in his programme that the star whistle-blower had stopped cooperating with him during the making of it. He did not disclose that he had encouraged the widow of Constable Meyer to wear a wire and try to get the whistle-blower to repeat his unsubstantiated evidence. <BR /> <BR />It took the ombudsman 10 years to get to the truth — the same ombudsman that complains about RUC investigations being slow.”
“The unimaginable grief of the families and colleagues of those two innocent men was compounded in 2015, when BBC journalist Chris Moore made a 'Spotlight' programme alleging that the weapons used in their murders had been in the possession of the Royal Ulster Constabulary's Special Branch and that, having been tested, they were handed back to the IRA, which committed the murders. That caused real devastation, but there was not a scintilla of evidence to support Chris Moore's assertions. In fact, the weapons were recovered after the attack. One had been dropped, and the other came from the dreadful murder of two corporals in Belfast. <BR /> <BR />A complaint went to the Police Ombudsman about the assertions made by the 'Spotlight' programme.”
“On 30 June 1990, two community police officers were murdered in Belfast, shot by the Provisional IRA: Constable Harry Beckett and Constable Gary Meyer. They left behind a wife each and three children who were later orphaned. Another man was killed in a linked attack: James Babington, an entirely innocent man, was also murdered by the IRA.”