Jon Burrows
North Antrim · Ulster Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“It is invasive for someone to be cross-examined by the person who has caused them grave trauma and great hurt — the person who has victimised them. Cross-examination can be done by legal counsel, which is sound.”
“It is adversarial for good reason, but there are really important things that we can do when it comes to process, the system, dealing with cross-examination, disclosure and character references. I hope that we have a victims and witnesses commissioner who is the loudest and strongest voice for victims.”
“I agree. I rang one of the victims on the evening after the conviction and apologised. Even though I had no role over Mr Campbell, I said that I was ashamed that that man, Lloyd-Lavery, was ever employed by the party or by an MLA and ashamed that the man who gave him a character reference was a former chair of our party.”
“I welcome the Bill. It is long overdue, because our justice system in Northern Ireland is tilted towards the interests of suspects and perpetrators over and above the interests of victims and the general public.”
“There is always a balance to be struck between the rights of an unconvicted person who has been accused of a crime and the rights of the victim, and we need to get that balance right. We should never forget that there have been miscarriages of justice in our country down through the years.”
“<BR /> <BR />The Education Minister should have included the measure in the School Uniforms (Guidelines and Allowances) Bill. That would have achieved it far more efficiently, but it was not done.”
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“<BR /> <BR />Sinn Féin lectures us about our language and actions when it still defends the murders of thousands of people. Many people would have loved to have had only a protest outside their house instead of a masked man planting a bomb under their car or assassinating their father as he got into his car to go to work. Shame on you. We will defend democracy and challenge what happens out there, but we will also be robust in our scrutiny in this place.”
“For me, as someone who has crossed the road to help people and who has had bones broken for helping people in need, to be blamed for bringing scrutiny and accused that my solidarity with the Justice Minister was somehow "feigned" — that is the language that a Member used — went against every fibre in my body. My nieces and nephews read those tweets. They read the responses to them. I express my full solidarity with the Justice Minister. The people who gathered outside her house were a mob. I am sure that the Ulster Unionist Party gets no support from them whatsoever. I know that some of the very same people were highly critical of my party's role during COVID, because many of them are anti-vaxxers. I condemn outright what happened outside the Longs' house. I condemn outright what happened at Minister Kimmins's constituency office.”
“We talk about civility in the House, and I am told to grow up”
“Let me address something. I know what it is like to be attacked in your own home and not to feel safe in it. I lived under serious threat. I lived behind armoured glass. Members of my family sent me messages this week saying that an Alliance MLA had blamed me —”
“When democracy is attacked, the answer is more democracy, more scrutiny and more accountability.”
“I also unequivocally condemn the terrible scenes outside the Justice Minister and Councillor Long's house, as, last week, I condemned the terrible attack at the constituency office of Minister Kimmins and the graffiti attack on Mr Frew's constituency office. I genuinely believe that an attack on one of us is an attack on all of us in this place and that we all have a responsibility to defend democracy. <BR /> <BR />I am afraid, however, that democracy is under two attacks today: the attack from the mobs outside, and the attack from those in here who want to silence accountability and scrutiny and link the actions of a mob with the legitimate voice of people in the Chamber. That is shameful.”
“My constituents in the Sourhill development of Ballymena have a problem with an unadopted road. Minister, can you understand their frustration? The developer went bust many years ago; there is an unadopted road; and trees are literally growing into their property. That will cause structural damage. It is causing health issues with mould, and nobody will fix it. The council will not cut down the trees; the DFI will not do it; and the Crown Estate takes no interest. Someone, through no fault of their own, will have to pay thousands of pounds to cut back trees that a bust developer has left.”
“Does the Member concur that it is concerning that, although the Justice Minister frequently says that she cannot answer something because of operational independence, she revealed in an answer to a question that I submitted that she has never once sought legal advice about what operational independence involves and what the boundaries of it are?”
“I clearly called out that mistakes were made in the Creswell case. He was a wicked and evil man. However, it was inappropriate to name John Caldwell, a victim of terrorism, as having done something wrong when the ombudsman found no wrongdoing by Mr Caldwell.”
“It is because the human rights aspect has been interpreted wrongly. It is the same with smoking in prison: long after it was banned in Great Britain, our prison officers' lungs are subject to passive smoking, because the Northern Ireland Prison Service has not banned smoking; it put the prisoner before the prison officer. That is what is wrong in our system. It needs transformational leadership, and we are not going to get it. It is time that we stood up for the victim and made people pay for their crimes.”
“I apologise. Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. <BR /> <BR />We are getting softer, and victims see a long process with very little outcome. That dissuades victims from making statements and staying the course. These are things that we can change. Often, the PPS sends things to the wrong court. Time and time again, the PPS sends things to the Magistrates' Court that belong in the Crown Court. I have seen cases where the maximum sentence available by law is 14 years, and a prosecutor sends it to the Magistrates' Court, where, to begin with, you start with a one-year sentence. <BR /> <BR />A culture has crept in whereby the perpetrator comes first and the victim comes last. The PSNI is affected by it. Just today, it has announced that it will not release the mugshot of someone who was convicted of rape and is on the run. Why?”
“No, I will not give way again because my time is short. <BR /> <BR />Delays are anathema. We are also the softest justice system in the UK. Consistently, the figures show that our sentencing is soft and getting softer. The number of sexual crimes has gone up by 50%, but the number of those who are found guilty of those crimes and end up in prison has gone down by 50%. There is a clear trend. Again, victims of domestic violence or domestic assault not only say, "Look, this is going to be a long trial" —. <BR /> <BR />The Justice Minister is chatting while I am speaking, but these are really important issues, Justice Minister. We do not see you often in the Chamber, so it would be good if you listened about domestic violence, because it is a really important issue. Sexual assault —”
“It is unjustifiable and beyond refutation that we have a slow criminal justice system. However, instead of dealing with it, we have talked around the edges. Here is how you deal with it. You change the sentencing guidelines to make it the case that, if you do not plead guilty until the last minute, you get no credit. In fact, you should get an exemplary sentence so that everybody knows —.”
“I am afraid that, for many, it is too little, too late. I have been calling for these things for years. The Minister needs to take responsibility for her —.”
“At every point where there is a delay in a domestic violence case, the chance of the woman dropping out of the case increases exponentially. Suspects in domestic violence, as a tactic, plead not guilty until the very last moment, hoping that the victim will drop out. It is also the case that the judges give bail to people because the case is so delayed that they cannot justify holding them on remand. So you have a case where either the victim drops out or the suspect, who has terrified the victim, gets out and kills the victim, as has happened numerous times, or else the victim drops the case.”
“There is a grave crisis facing our justice system, which is now the softest and slowest in the United Kingdom and which lets down victims. A dangerous culture has emerged that puts perpetrators first and victims last. I will particularly look at violence against women and girls, sexual violence and domestic violence against women. This is a case study of what is wrong in our justice system. <BR /> <BR />I say at the start that you cannot have transformational change without transformational leadership. That will not be delivered by the current Justice Minister, who has failed to grip the issues at hand. Let me talk about domestic violence for a moment. Delay is described as anathema to justice, but when it comes to domestic violence, delay is deadly for women.”
“Does the Minister agree that mutual aid is a vital resource that we must support?”
“I certainly will. As a former PSNI officer, I hope that the Justice Minister agrees that mutual aid is vital for the PSNI. You cannot expect to get resources when you really need them if you are not prepared to give resources when you are able to. It is part of being in the United Kingdom.”
“In fact, we have seen political policing here in recent times. Mr Kelly will know, because he rang the previous Deputy Chief Constable, on 5 February 2020, asking for a prisoner to be released in live time. His boss, then the deputy First Minister, now the First Minister for all, Michelle O'Neill, rang the Chief Constable —”
“The Ulster Unionist Party certainly welcomes the high-quality jobs that will come from that investment. Does the deputy First Minister agree that the investment not only brings high-quality jobs but increases tax revenues, which will help the most disadvantaged in our society, and, therefore, anyone in the Executive should put the public interest before their narrow political interest and welcome and encourage that kind of investment?”
“The people who committed those terrible atrocities were wrong. I was glad to condemn the terrible attack on Liz Kimmins's office. I find it difficult that, in a democracy today, having heard the words of Jim Dixon, there are people who sit in the Chamber, whose words matter to young people, who cannot simply say, "That was wrong. There was an alternative, and we are deeply shamed about what we did to the people of Northern Ireland".”
“Mr Dixon was an innocent victim, and the people who committed that terrible atrocity were victim makers and can never be described as victims. I do not want to politic about the pain and misery that people have lived in and the death and destruction that was inflicted on the people of Northern Ireland, but I take incredibly seriously my responsibility never to let history be rewritten, including by some people in the Chamber. <BR /> <BR />Those who went out to murder and maim, whether they were loyalists or republicans, were victim makers. The people who were blown up, bereaved, widowed and orphaned were the victims. We will never remove the word "innocent" from the front of the title "innocent victim", and we will never play into a narrative, no matter how persistently it is propagated.”
“I acknowledge the passing last Thursday of Jim Dixon, who was the most seriously injured survivor of the Enniskillen bomb. Jim Dixon died aged 88. That bomb, which was detonated on 8 November 1987, murdered 11 people and injured over 60. I will read into the record what Jim Dixon said to the 'Belfast Telegraph' in 2009 when he described his injuries that day:”
“I salute the police and the ammunition technical officers, and I hope that there are forensic opportunities from the device. We as a party, of course, know very well the price that terrorism brings to innocent people. Edgar Graham and Robert Bradford were wickedly murdered by terrorists, and, thankfully, we see far fewer of those kinds of despicable attacks. Those attacks were wrong then, they are wrong today, and they will be wrong in the future. Unequivocally, I stand with Ms Kimmins and Dáire Hughes, as does the entire Ulster Unionist Party.”
“On behalf of the Ulster Unionist Party, I condemn unequivocally the terrible attack on Liz Kimmins and Dáire Hughes. It was a despicable attack, and I agree entirely that it is an attack not only on the entire community but, in fact, on our democratic system. I am a great believer that an attack on any one of us here is an attack on all of us and on what we are trying to do to represent people across Northern Ireland. I give my full solidarity to Liz and Dáire, to their constituency workers and, indeed, to their families, who will be frightened. <BR /> <BR />I do hope that the Police Service of Northern Ireland, supported by our security services, particularly MI5, which supports the work that the PSNI does in dismantling those who commit terrorism, is successful in bringing the people who did this to justice.”
“<BR /> <BR />On amendment No 10, whilst I still have some uncertainty about naming schools, that was the clear wish of the Chamber at Consideration Stage. It is important that we have clarity that the Department can name a school but it should be done as a last resort. Again, we do not want to be involved in humiliation, and that works both ways. It is about education and prevention. <BR /> <BR />I am happy to support the amendments.”
“It gets the balance right and affords common sense and flexibility in order to allow minor issues to be dealt with quickly by a school. That is why I said that it was important at the outset to say what the fundamental purpose of the Bill is. If schools started to try to expand the word "undue" in order to frustrate the purpose of the Bill, that clearly would not be permissible. That is why it is so important that we have stated so many times that the purpose of the Bill is to make sure that nobody is excluded or disciplined because their parents cannot afford something. We need to make that clear. <BR /> <BR />Amendment No 9 is useful. It just clarifies that NIPSO can be a source of evidence in determining whether to make a direction. There is nothing controversial in that.”
“I know a lot of teachers: I do not know many who are in the business of deliberate humiliation. We need, however, to give teachers the discretion to have on-the-spot conversations without being worried about some onerous legislation coming down on them. We need to trust our teachers, albeit the Bill provides strong guidance. If teachers engage in humiliation, that should be dealt with through disciplinary measures. It is not something that I recognise in the hard-working teachers across Northern Ireland. <BR /> <BR />Amendment Nos 1, 5, 7 and 12 are tidying-up exercises. I do not see any malice in what the Minister has done or any dilution of the effect of the legislation. <BR /> <BR />On amendment No 8, I agree with the insertion of the word "undue".”
“The Ulster Unionist Party and I will not play politics with something as important as education. We restate our commitment to the need to support children and young people, our commitment that they will have affordable school uniforms and our commitment that the overriding purpose of the Bill — I asked the Minister on a previous occasion to state this clearly so that it was captured for Hansard and, if need be, for a court — is to make sure that no child is excluded or disciplined because their parents cannot afford an item of uniform. That is its fundamental purpose. It is useful to restate that, and I will explain that as I go on. <BR /> <BR />I am satisfied with amendment Nos 1, 5, 7 and 12. They are tidying-up exercises. I do not share the concerns that I have heard.”
“He is from the party that leads on slap actions, the party that tried to take — Mr Kelly himself brought the case — the house from Malachi O'Doherty for publishing an article, and the party that has an army of trolls on social media, which creates a chill effect for everybody. We do not need lessons from Mr Kelly on freedom of the press.”
“The Alliance Party has called for a public inquiry. In advance of the McCullough review's findings, the Justice Minister said that it would be "premature" to call for a public inquiry, and that we should wait and see what McCullough reported. McCullough reported that there was no systemic surveillance of journalists, but the Alliance Party still calls for a review. It is interesting that two Policing Board members call for a review. My understanding is that the Justice Minister has the power to instigate a public inquiry under the Inquiries Act, so we will see whether she lives up to that power. I will ask her a question later today in that regard. <BR /> <BR />We have heard from Mr Kelly about freedom of the press.”
“There is a minor issue about whether the journalists gave the PSNI their numbers for that purpose, but there was no unlawful surveillance of the journalists' phones.”
“<BR /> <BR />Mr Kelly said that there were issues with the Police Service's candour. Mr McCullough, an eminent KC, said that he had unfettered access and that everything that he had asked for was given to him. Some things that have been said are simply misleading. There are lessons to be learned from what are called the "defensive operations" used by the police. There is, however, a suggestion that the police were running taps on hundreds of journalists' phones and interrogating them. Perhaps it should not have done this, but the police had numbers that journalists had given to them, which were put in a spreadsheet and checked against officers' call records to see whether they had rung those numbers. The PSNI did not access the journalists' numbers.”
“I will address the findings of the McCullough review. I am afraid to say that the commentary in the media, by political parties and, indeed, by some firms of solicitors — I will not mention any of them — has been misleading and distorted. Let me be clear: the Ulster Unionist Party believes that a free press is a cornerstone of our democracy and that police surveillance powers should be used with great care, in accordance with the law, should be proportionate and should be used only when necessary. There are some lessons to be learned from the McCullough review, but I very much doubt that all those who have spoken so excessively about its findings have read the report. The McCullough review report clearly states that there was no evidence whatsoever of systemic surveillance of journalists by the PSNI.”
“Those are all good things, and we welcome them. We will support the Minister when he does positive things. However, there are areas in my constituency where it feels as though that is not trickling down and where it is not being felt. I was in two of them: Drumtara and the Queen Street area. People there would like to invite the Minister to come up, have a walk and hear first-hand from them, in a very constructive way, about the things that, they think, could be done better in their constituency. Will he come up and visit my constituents?”
“An Garda Síochána and G2, as it was formerly known, will not give that, but we need to make sure that they do so. <BR /> <BR />I agree that we should put victims first, but there are massive issues. I support the motion. The Republic of Ireland has a lot of ground to make up —”
“<BR /> <BR />We ask the Irish Government — we want to look forward — who will staff the new an Garda Síochána unit. We are told that the investigation unit that will be part of the legacy commission up here must have a non-Northern Ireland director of investigations, so we say that the an Garda Síochána unit must have a non-Republic of Ireland investigator to oversee it. Who provides the insight and the oversight? Both states should give unredacted intelligence to investigators. I know for a fact — no one can challenge this point; I will finish on it — that the Independent Commission for Reconciliation and Information Recovery (ICRIR) gets unredacted, unvarnished intelligence from the security services. How the ICRIR releases that is a different issue, but it gets it.”
“The UK should be suing the Republic of Ireland, not the other way around. <BR /> <BR />Here is the thing: I condemn every loyalist paramilitary. The Shankill butcher was as evil as the Shankill bomber. Any rogue former colleague of mine — one joined the Glenanne Gang — is a traitor and should be put in prison. I call for anyone who did such things to be stripped of all pensions. We stand by every victim, but, in reality, 99% of the people who did wrong were paramilitaries. We need to put the victims first, and we can do so only if we build the legacy agreement on solid foundations. The Irish Government need first to publish what was agreed with Sinn Féin and tell us what the legal outworkings of that are. Will that scupper an Garda Síochána in investigating Troubles-related crime?”
“He was smoking a cigarette, and he pumped rounds into that man, whose son grew up without him. <BR /> <BR />Here is the thing: we were told at the time of the Good Friday Agreement that we had to accept that people would get out after two years, but that was it; there was nothing else. What happened when the police brought Seamus Kearney to justice under the provisions of the Belfast Agreement, by which he would get two years? Former Sinn Féin south Derry MLA Ian Milne said that it was a vindictive prosecution, because he had been good republican. I would hate to see a bad republican, but this is the point: Sinn Féin has opposed the rule of law being implemented as agreed under the Belfast Agreement, just as the Republic of Ireland has opposed it in giving an amnesty.”
“Members at the back of the Chamber are laughing; I do not find it funny. I will give you some examples. Let me say first what we will ask of the Irish Government: number one, a full report. Let us have a transparent report on what was offered to whom. I also want to see legal advice. What are the implications? Could they scupper an Garda Síochána in bringing those former comrades to justice? <BR /> <BR />Let me tell you about one former comrade, Seamus Kearney. This example highlights the hypocrisy. In 1981, Seamus Kearney waited in a hospital car park. John Proctor, a member of the Royal Ulster Constabulary, was visiting his newborn son in the maternity ward. When he came back and got into his car, who was waiting for him? Seamus Kearney, the freedom fighter for Ireland.”
“When he was prosecuted, the judge rightly said that that was an abuse of executive power. <BR /> <BR />Sinn Féin's former colleagues in the IRA are sitting on a potential "Get out of jail free" card. That is why we will ask the Irish Government for two things. One —”
“I now have the video clip where Michael McDowell says loudly and clearly that members of Sinn Féin lobbied for an amnesty and that the Government gave that amnesty and instructed an Garda Síochána not to investigate any crime anywhere on the island of Ireland. Not only was that shameful and done without legislation and transparency, my big concern, which I am putting on the record today, is that, when a state gives a solemn undertaking not to do something and, 25 years later, says that it will start reinvestigating crimes, that is a "breach of an executive undertaking", as it is called in law, and an abuse of executive power. That is what caused the issues in the Downey trial. Downey was told — there is a specific issue with his letter — that he would not be prosecuted in that case.”
“As I said yesterday, these are solemn matters. The proposals merit serious consideration, because we owe it to the victims. I will take exception: the Ulster Unionist Party is examining the proposals very closely. We will try to shape, bend and influence whatever the outcome is. There are lots of things that can be done constructively. That is why we have set out our guiding principles, which put victims first. <BR /> <BR />There is a big issue with how the Irish state has dealt with the Troubles not just during the conflict and the terrorist campaign, with the lack of extraditions — fewer than one in 10 — etc but with the amnesty. It is a really serious issue.”
“Do you accept that the belated setting up of a unit in an Garda Síochána to investigate the past is too little, too late? How many victims have died during the amnesty? How much evidence has been lost? How many suspects have died without being brought to justice in the past 25 years? It is too little, too late to investigate things 25 years later.”
“I am grateful to the Member for giving way. I accept and agree that a proposal for amnesty from any Government is totally inappropriate. You described the previous UK Government's proposal as being a nadir. Do you also agree that the amnesty that Michael McDowell says that the Irish Government gave to every suspect in terrorist crimes in the Republic of Ireland at the petition of Sinn Féin was morally indefensible? In fact, it was worse, because it was not even transparent, as it was not done through legislation.”
“Would the Member think it inappropriate for a simple penalty ticket to be given for a serious racially aggravated offence such as assault occasioning actual bodily harm that was racially aggravated?”
“Does the Member agree that, if responsible politicians do not articulate issues around illegal immigration and the delays in the asylum system, that cedes ground to the likes of Tommy Robinson, who then make the running on it and amplify hate?”
“— go on about the human rights lobby. <BR /> <BR />We need to support our police, and we need to make sure that our judges do their job, uphold the rule of law and put criminals behind bars.”
“It is the most risk-averse police service in the United Kingdom. Let me give you an example. Mugshots go out from every other police service in the United Kingdom. If you are convicted of a race hate crime, your mugshot will go out. If you are convicted of domestic violence, your mugshot will go out. The public see that those actions have consequences and that crime does not pay. There is a very strong message. In Northern Ireland, we are frightened to do that. Why? It is because of the hyper-criticism and accountability that the police have faced, including from people in this very Chamber. We need a police service that is not frightened to be decisive. We are much slower traditionally at releasing unidentified images of suspects, yet that is what stops disorder. There are people who —”
“I do think that that is a chill factor. I am very hawkish on paramilitaries. I have no difficulty in condemning outright every single member of a loyalist paramilitary group, because the fact is that none of them is in a pipe-and-slipper brigade. They are members of a criminal organisation. There is a chill factor, because some of the people involved in this are also paramilitaries. It gives them legitimacy and credence and creates a chill factor when making reports. I go back to this key point: if you believe that you will not get caught, you will carry on committing that kind of crime. <BR /> <BR />We have starved our Police Service of Northern Ireland. Here is a cultural thing, and it goes back to supporting the police, not just with money but with real support. I watched the PSNI become more and more risk-averse before my eyes.”