Jon Burrows
North Antrim · Ulster Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“It is invasive for someone to be cross-examined by the person who has caused them grave trauma and great hurt — the person who has victimised them. Cross-examination can be done by legal counsel, which is sound.”
“It is adversarial for good reason, but there are really important things that we can do when it comes to process, the system, dealing with cross-examination, disclosure and character references. I hope that we have a victims and witnesses commissioner who is the loudest and strongest voice for victims.”
“I agree. I rang one of the victims on the evening after the conviction and apologised. Even though I had no role over Mr Campbell, I said that I was ashamed that that man, Lloyd-Lavery, was ever employed by the party or by an MLA and ashamed that the man who gave him a character reference was a former chair of our party.”
“I welcome the Bill. It is long overdue, because our justice system in Northern Ireland is tilted towards the interests of suspects and perpetrators over and above the interests of victims and the general public.”
“There is always a balance to be struck between the rights of an unconvicted person who has been accused of a crime and the rights of the victim, and we need to get that balance right. We should never forget that there have been miscarriages of justice in our country down through the years.”
“<BR /> <BR />The Education Minister should have included the measure in the School Uniforms (Guidelines and Allowances) Bill. That would have achieved it far more efficiently, but it was not done.”
The complete record
Every one of 773 lines we hold for Jon Burrows, in date order, each linked to its source. Free to read, in full, without an account. Page 12 of 16.
“Yes, there are real lessons on competence, integrity and decision-making that we can learn from the report, but, when it comes to predetermined immorality, Sinn Féin showed its true colours, and it should still make a heartfelt apology for the damage that it did to this country during COVID.”
“That concerns 5 February 2021, when two young constables, one Protestant and one Catholic, had the temerity to try to give a ticket to a group of people who were breaching the COVID regulations. The result, after the constables were jostled and abused, was that Sinn Féin, at a senior level, interfered with policing. It demanded that a prisoner be released from the back of a police car. It petitioned the Chief Constable and threatened him until he suspended an innocent officer. I was proud to be part of the campaign to exonerate that police officer. <BR /> <BR />Sinn Féin caused not only a crisis in confidence around the Bobby Storey funeral but a crisis in policing around its politicisation on the Ormeau Road. It has never apologised for that, but I know the truth, because I saw the minutes: I saw the disclosure.”
“The show of strength for Bobby Storey's funeral revealed what is wrong with the rule of law in Northern Ireland: the average citizen has to follow the rules on when they see, or do not see, their granny or granda, but, when it comes to a terrorist, different rules apply. That was a day of shame for Sinn Féin. There was much talk about the apology of the now First Minister for all. It took 1,414 days to apologise — that is not an apology at all — and Sinn Féin still boycotts 'The Nolan Show', because the BBC had the temerity to expose its duplicity. That is not genuine remorse. <BR /> <BR />We focus on the Bobby Storey funeral, but there is a second chapter to Sinn Féin's conduct around COVID.”
“Then we had the flagrant breach of those rules by Sinn Féin. Yes, Baroness Hallett's report raised issues of competency and decision-making, but what stood out in Sinn Féin's misconduct was that it was a predetermined, pre-planned, calculated, flagrant breach of the rule of law. It was an affront to everybody who did the right thing.”
“COVID was, in many ways, a moment of truth for many in our political establishment, and the truth was that many of our political leaders were not up to the challenge. <BR /> <BR />I will turn to the Bobby Storey funeral in a moment. First, I extend my sympathy to all those who lost loved ones during the pandemic and all those who never got a chance to say goodbye and who visited their loved ones in care homes through a glass window because they abided by the rules that were set down by people in this place.”
“It is a matter of record that the PSNI could not get those things examined. There is a backlog of devices owned by people who were abusing children and by people who were involved in domestic violence. Anyone who thinks that the PSNI will drop all of that to deal with the enforcement of fireworks laws is wrong. The answer is to change the law, make representations to Westminster, deal with the noise and deal with the unpredictability of fireworks legislation. All that needs to be done for pet owners and farmers —”
“Allow me to speak. Many people up and down the country do not find it amusing. We need to impress on Westminster that there are issues and that we need support in order to address them. Fireworks here have got out of control. They are being set off right throughout the year, while the PSNI's resources are entirely stretched. <BR /> <BR />It therefore comes down to the enforcement point. Only this week, it has emerged that, on the issue of cybercrime, for one of the most dangerous predators that we have ever seen, the police did not have the resources to triage in order to deal with his phone quickly enough. It is being suggested that the police will drop things to do more enforcement of fireworks laws, but we need to live on planet reality. We need an acceptance right across the House —.”
“I know that some people find it funny, but many people up and down the country —.”
“The point of the motion is to highlight the fact that this is a significant issue that we need to address.”
“I will give way in literally 30 seconds. That will allow pet owners to plan accordingly. I declare an interest — I am going to give way in 10 seconds — in that my dog, Nancy, suffers very significantly from anxiety. I see it myself: we cannot cope over the two weeks of Halloween because we do not know when the fireworks are going to go off.”
“It is very difficult to enforce legislation when, outside of the main events, the people who have the bangers and fireworks that cause the problems are mostly children. They generally fall outside typical prosecutions and tend to get diversions and cautions. So, enforcement is not the answer. The answer is a change to the legislation that allows for noise reduction and specific time periods in which fireworks can be used”
“Yes, but this is about enforcement, Mr Deputy Speaker, and I will come to that.”
“I will give way in a second. There is an incongruous thing there. The Alliance Party also proposes to reduce the age of criminal responsibility. There is, perhaps, merit in that, but many —.”
“The detail is in the consultation document that you issued.”
“— or who commit assault occasioning actual bodily harm?”
“OK, thank you. <BR /> <BR />What sort of society do we live in when we want to throw a heavier book at those who have fireworks instead of changing the law, but give a slap on the wrist to those who assault our police officers —”
“I will not give way at the moment. I will come back in a second.”
“That can be changed, but laws are needed. <BR /> <BR />I find it incongruous that the Alliance Party's amendment is about toughening up existing legislation for fireworks. As I said in my earlier intervention, that party — certainly the Justice Minister — has proposed a consultation on downgrading penalties for crimes such as burglary, fraud, antisocial behaviour and assault of police officers to a ticket.”
“I will give way towards the end. <BR /> <BR />I want to outline some testimony that I have heard from pet owners. I have surveyed some people and asked them to give me their personal examples. In my constituency, Jeffrey, a giant rabbit, died of a stroke this Halloween. Buddy the dachshund is still missing in Northern Ireland after bolting when a rocket exploded without notice. A sighthound called Rosie had a fatal stroke after fireworks were set off. A red panda in Edinburgh, which was up a tree in a zoo, had a stroke when it heard a firework and fell down. Its orphaned baby died a few weeks later. This is serious stuff, and it needs to be taken seriously. We also have issues with livestock up and down the country. For what? To have bangs — unpredictable noises that people cannot manage — during the week of Halloween?”
“It is refreshing to again be talking about issues that are kitchen-table politics. Last night, the issue was the cost of living, and, today, it is one that affects our constituents up and down the length of our country. Pet owners and farmers in particular talk frequently about the impact on their animals when fireworks are set off. We need to listen to that loud and clear call from across communities. This is a cross-community issue that should unite us. Something needs to change fundamentally around fireworks legislation. <BR /> <BR />There are two key problems, if you want to distil them. One is that there is an unpredictability with fireworks. When are they going to go off? The other problem is the loud noise that they make. All the enforcement in the world will not change those two things; only fresh laws can.”
“The Justice Minister is proposing a consultation on lowering the penalty for offences such as assault occasioning actual bodily harm and assault on police from a prosecution to a ticket. Are we really suggesting that we increase penalties for children who have fireworks while we give a ticket to someone who has assaulted someone else and left them with an injury?”
“Does the Minister agree that it is frustrating that some parents report that schools do not permit children to wear coats to school, nor do they provide somewhere for coats to be stored? That is a practical concern, coming into winter.”
“I will. I commend the amendment. It strengthens the motion and is constructive, and I encourage Members to support it.”
“It is relevant because, if you were running a commercial setting and people were not eating half the food that you were supplying, you certainly would not get away with increasing the price. <BR /> <BR />Food banks are a significant feature in our society. I used to volunteer at one before I came to this place, and it was a heartbreaking experience to see people wait for a delivery of food so that they could feed their children. One of the particular difficulties, of course, is —.”
“That is a valid point. There is consensus emerging that the increase in school meal prices should be reviewed. <BR /> <BR />There is a side issue that I will not explore in detail now, but it is the fact that there is a lot of wastage in school meals at primary-school level, because schools have insufficient ability to tailor the menu to the needs of the children. The menu is overly prescriptive. I did a little bit of touring around different schools, and, from the figures, I found that there is up to 40% wastage in primary-school meals. The catering department says, "Look, we know what the children will eat, and we are unable to tailor the offering". Why is that relevant?”
“Yes, that really compounds it. To make the point really clearly, the threshold to qualify for free school meals was an income of up to £15,000. It then went up to £15,390, which reflects about a 3% rise in inflation. However, the real inflation felt by working families who have children and have to pay those non-discretionary inflationary rates that run at 11% a year wipes out —.”
“However, that figure, and what families can afford, is more than wiped out by the increase in inflation.”
“Ask any schoolteacher and they will tell you that it is cheaper to go out and buy printer paper directly than to get it through procurement. Those are ways in which you can save money, if they are done properly, as opposed to front-loading the cost on to schools. <BR /> <BR />My colleagues and many others — I will not summarise what everyone else said — were quite right to say that school meals are critical, particularly for those whose families can just about afford them and who are ineligible for free school meals, because, with the rise in food prices, they are guaranteed to get that square meal. It is therefore vital that we do not increase the price. That is why we have also called for the threshold for eligibility for free school meals to rise. The last time that it rose, it rose by £390.”
“Yes, there has not been an increase since 2017. The difficulty with that is that it will make it more difficult for parents to manage the jump. In hindsight, if you are going to do it, it would be better to spread the increase incrementally year by year and achieve the 20% at the end of that period, as opposed to holding off and jumping by 20%. It will potentially be the straw that breaks the camel's back. Food prices have increased, and that puts pressure on the cost of producing school meals. I accept that. One of the things that we as a party have been very clear about is that the price of school meals should be the last thing that is increased. There are savings to be had in how procurement is done.”
“It far outstrips the overall rate of aggregate inflation — and that is what really hits working families most. You will hear from people when they go to do their shop: they know that the things that they put in their trolley have got so much more expensive. That hits working families because, first, they have more mouths to feed — hungry children and teenagers playing sport — and second, because it is a non-discretionary spend. The inflation rate also includes other things, like new cars or holidays and all kinds of other things. They are often discretionary, but the food increase is non-discretionary. That is why the amendment is right to link food security and school meals to the motion. <BR /> <BR />I will come on to school meals, because we have opposed the 20% increase in school meal costs. That increase outstrips inflation.”
“Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. It is a pleasure to make a winding-up speech on the amendment. I will say at the outset that it is refreshing to be discussing issues that really are kitchen-table politics — issues that are directly relevant to our constituents up and down the country. As my colleague who proposed the amendment said, it really strengthens the motion and is a constructive amendment. <BR /> <BR />I begin by making a couple of points about the rate of inflation. Inflation is one of those things that is of great interest to economists, but the figure of 3·8% is, of course, in many ways irrelevant to those who are in the real economy, because inflation affects different people in different ways. Food inflation, as my colleague Ms Diana Armstrong said, is actually running at 11%, and over the past four years, it has been 37%.”
“Northern Ireland had a great year in 1985: Barry McGuigan was the champion of the world in boxing; Dennis Taylor was the world snooker champion; and Northern Ireland qualified for the World Cup the following year. However, it was not a good year due to the Anglo-Irish Agreement, which is a stain on the otherwise proud history of Margaret Thatcher.”
“It places power in the hands of the people of Northern Ireland, which is where it belongs. The Assembly exercises the democratic wishes of the people here.”
“As ever, the British Government jump and expect the Irish Government to follow. That is why my party believes that there should have been parallel legislation that meant that the Irish Government were committed to doing the things that the British Government were doing. <BR /> <BR />It is worth reflecting that the NIO and the British Government can sometimes bend the knee to those who would use or threaten violence. That is why we must be eternally vigilant to their manoeuvres. It is also why devolution is so important, and why my party will never stand for collapsing Stormont: never has and never will.”
“As ever, it was negotiated with the aim of securing from the Irish Republic something that should be the basic duty of a normal democracy: cooperation in the fight against terrorism. It was George Santayana who said that those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it. It is worth reminding ourselves of those fundamental failures, because we have seen them time and time again. Negotiating things in secret, like the on-the-run letters, has massively damaged relationships in Northern Ireland. Some people would still try to impose things without consent in Northern Ireland. We are seeing our own Government, again, with regard to legacy, making the mistake of trying to secure the cooperation of the Irish Republic by passing new legacy laws and creating new bodies.”
“In a similar vein, I want to mark the 40th anniversary of the Anglo-Irish Agreement that, on Saturday, was gushingly referred to by the Northern Ireland Office in a press release as having paved the way for the Belfast/Good Friday Agreement. Of course, nothing could be further from the truth. As members of a party that, before I was in it, was one of the architects of that agreement, we cannot recognise or agree with that tone-deaf statement. <BR /> <BR />The Anglo-Irish Agreement is an example of how not to do peace-building or agreements in Northern Ireland. It was imposed on the people of Northern Ireland without consent or consultation. It was negotiated in secret, certainly from unionism.”
“I will not give way, because I am just finishing up. <BR /> <BR />Right and wrong are important. We will speak for them. Our amendment strengthens the motion, and I commend it to everyone.”
“Let us be clear about how many memorials in our country are illegal by virtue of having no planning permission and by virtue of what is on them. Let us see that in black and white. The memorials to British servicemen that the Member on the Benches opposite talked about are not built without planning permission and are not breaking any law. They commemorate servicemen just as an Garda Síochána and the Irish Army commemorate their dead. I would never tolerate a memorial to a loyalist involved in the Dublin and Monaghan bombings being placed alongside a memorial to an Garda Síochána and being called the same thing. That is not a new Ireland to which unionists can subscribe. Those are truths, and that is why our amendment is strong.”
“I will not give way any more. If they are on an illegal memorial, it should be taken down. <BR /> <BR />This is where I come to the rule of law. We have allowed the rule of law in Northern Ireland to be sacrificed to the path of least resistance. Our amendment strengthens it again. Farmers in my constituency cannot get a farmhouse or henhouse through planning and will not build it until they get planning permission, yet people build memorials to terrorists with impunity. How can that be right? How have we got ourselves into that position? How can people on the other side of the House justify that? If the memorials are illegal, bring them down. Do not let them be built again. <BR /> <BR />That is why our amendment says that an audit should not only be taken but published.”
“The Shankill butcher was wrong. There can be no equivalence between them and people who tried to do their job. If a police officer did something wrong, like those who got involved in the Glenanne gang with UDR members, I would see them as a traitor to their uniform. They should be given an additional sentence for that breach of trust. I have never justified any criminality by anyone who wears uniform. Let me say this: those who murdered people at Greysteel were wrong. It can never be right or complex: that can never be the narrative. Yes, academics will look at such things from an academic point of view, but those people were wrong. They went into a bar, shouted, "Trick or treat" and sprayed the pub with bullets. They do not deserve any memorialisation.”
“I generously gave way to the Member. I hope that my tone has been respectful. Certainly, anyone who listens to my contribution or reads it in Hansard will see that I have been disrespectful to no one. That is another attack on my integrity, despite the fact that I have just called out, as clearly as could be, loyalist and republican terrorism. I will move on. <BR /> <BR />Our amendment strengthens the motion, because it ensures that we do not allow history to be rewritten. We need to deal with the elephant in the room. Those who were victims or those in uniform who tried to uphold the law are entirely different from those who were terrorists, loyalist and republican alike. We cannot allow that truth to ever be blurred. That is why I say that the motion is good, but our amendment strengthens it. <BR /> <BR />The Shankill bomber was wrong.”
“When it comes to innocent victims, it is entirely wrong that people in our society worry about opening a newspaper, watching TV or listening to the radio in case they hear about the commemoration of ghouls such as Brian Robinson. He was loyal to no one but a small group of gangsters, just as republican terrorists were evil people, loyal only to themselves. That is why it is so important that our amendment says that we need to acknowledge that victims are re-traumatised by those memorials, by loose language and by dealing with the people who inflicted loss on them, be it the loss of a loved one, one of their limbs or their mental well-being, as anything other than criminals. I do not use the term "ex-combatants"; they were terrorists.”
“We are guided by three key principles when we deal with issues of legacy. They are that innocent victims have their integrity and dignity preserved, we do not allow history to be rewritten and we uphold the rule of law. That is the lettering that runs through the stick of rock in our amendment.”
“— because it does not suit his antisemitic narrative.”
“For those reasons, we extend sympathy to and empathy for everyone affected by the crisis in the Middle East and every other humanitarian crisis. The biggest in the world at the minute is in Sudan, which the Member does not mention —”
“I will not give way. <BR /> <BR />What are we doing debating these issues with such passion and intensity while we crumble here at home? I did not appeal to Sinn Féin's moral compass, because it has none. It is the party of the PIRA, of Hamas, of FARC, of ETA. You judge people”
“School buildings are crumbling. There are children who travel for three hours to get to school every day, but, no, we want to talk about matters of international affairs. I tuned in, slightly late, to the Education Committee last week. For a moment, I thought that I had tuned into the Select Committee on Foreign Affairs at the Houses of Parliament, but then I saw two Sinn Féin members, and, clearly, they would not go to Parliament.”
“I think that her leadership is disastrous and that her language about victims was atrocious, but, if we all started backing motions that were brought about fellow Ministers in our Executive, there would be no government. Where would it end? It is proper scrutiny, not stunt politics and Punch and Judy politics, that brings real accountability. <BR /> <BR />Thirdly, we must deliver for our people here in Northern Ireland. There are places in my constituency where planning permission cannot be passed to build homes and schools because the sewerage is at capacity, so people are moving out and the school population declines and the villages are dying. We should be here until midnight discussing those things. Basic infrastructure has failed because many in politics have failed. The challenges to special educational needs are huge.”
“No, I will not give way. <BR /> <BR />The Alliance Party, which is trying to untangle itself from its dalliance with republican language about the past, is doubling down on that. I see the Member pull his face, but yesterday, when Ms Bradshaw was talking about memorials to terrorists, she said that they were for ex-combatants. That is the language of Sinn Féin. The people who blew up Enniskillen in the Poppy Day massacre are not ex-combatants; they were terrorists. That is why I will not support the motion. <BR /> <BR />Secondly, the motion is destabilising. We did not support Mr Gaston's motion, which, actually, I thought was fairly presented in the sense that Minister Long had lost a lot of confidence.”
“I will tell you why I and the Ulster Unionist Party oppose the motion. First, we will not be led by the man who celebrated the attack on the people of Israel. To the people who are being led, it is not too late to think again. The SDLP — the party of Hume, Mallon and McGrady — is following a man who tweeted, "Victory to the Palestinian Resistance". The Alliance Party, which was on the middle ground —.”