Jon Burrows
North Antrim · Ulster Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“It is invasive for someone to be cross-examined by the person who has caused them grave trauma and great hurt — the person who has victimised them. Cross-examination can be done by legal counsel, which is sound.”
“It is adversarial for good reason, but there are really important things that we can do when it comes to process, the system, dealing with cross-examination, disclosure and character references. I hope that we have a victims and witnesses commissioner who is the loudest and strongest voice for victims.”
“I agree. I rang one of the victims on the evening after the conviction and apologised. Even though I had no role over Mr Campbell, I said that I was ashamed that that man, Lloyd-Lavery, was ever employed by the party or by an MLA and ashamed that the man who gave him a character reference was a former chair of our party.”
“I welcome the Bill. It is long overdue, because our justice system in Northern Ireland is tilted towards the interests of suspects and perpetrators over and above the interests of victims and the general public.”
“There is always a balance to be struck between the rights of an unconvicted person who has been accused of a crime and the rights of the victim, and we need to get that balance right. We should never forget that there have been miscarriages of justice in our country down through the years.”
“<BR /> <BR />The Education Minister should have included the measure in the School Uniforms (Guidelines and Allowances) Bill. That would have achieved it far more efficiently, but it was not done.”
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“A couple of people who happened to be serving police officers were recently convicted, and the PSNI rightly took a robust view. However, I expect the Police Service of Northern Ireland to fully embrace the legislation and bring to book, with proactive investigations and operations, those who advertise the sexual services of women in our society.”
“I thank the Member for her intervention. Indeed, there are men around the world who are involved in providing sexual services. I genuinely believe that, in the vast majority of cases, even if someone says that they are committed to it or want to do it, there are deep, underlying traumas that have caused the position that they are in. They should be helped and supported, and we should absolutely target those who engage in the vile trade of treating women as objects, so I fully support that. <BR /> <BR />I am a great supporter of the PSNI, but I caution that it has not dealt proactively and robustly enough with the purchasing of sex. I know that the PSNI gave evidence expressing great caution about that legislation.”
“Certainly, a lot of the research that I have read, along with my experiences of what I have seen and feedback that I have got from family members who work in this, indicates that that is often not a true choice.”
“When I follow up on those cases, on almost every occasion the Public Prosecution Service (PPS) says that no crime has been committed. I support the repeal of the blasphemy laws, but it is important that we embrace genuine free speech when it comes to Christian or other religious preaching. That means that you have to tolerate some things that you disagree with. Article 10 contains a special protection for religious preaching. <BR /> <BR />I support amendment No 78, which would insert a clause on "Advertising sexual services", and I am glad to see it. I caution those who say that there are women who are willing members of the sex trade.”
“There are documented cases across the United Kingdom; in fact, there have been some exposés. By the way, I believe in true religious freedom, and I am respectful of other religions. I tend to find people who follow a religious code, even if it is different from mine, to be the most peaceable people that there are, whether or not you disagree with their religion. Of course, there has been hate preaching by all kinds of religions. <BR /> <BR />My point is that the people who are most susceptible to being arrested today in the United Kingdom are Christian preachers who are preaching in the street. That is not my kind of preaching. I do not think that that it is particularly productive, but you do see them being arrested regularly.”
“I say some things that some Members in the Chamber recoil from. I know from having been in the police — many will know it from our society — that there are those who would recoil from arresting a Muslim preacher but would arrest a Christian preacher. You regularly see on social media Christian preachers being arrested in town centres, and on almost every occasion —.”
“I will say loud and clear however, that my concern is that there is a direction of travel, which is to say that protection for Christian speech and preaching is taken away while, increasingly, we live in an environment where free speech for Christians is heavily circumscribed.”
“That happens more in other jurisdictions, particularly in London, where, for some, begging is their employment, and they go home to a nice home. It is right that we target those who organise begging and use genuinely vulnerable people and that we do not treat those who are in need as anything other than people who are vulnerable and in need of support. <BR /> <BR />My party and I support the amendments on blasphemy. As far as I am aware, those offences have never been used. Were they to be used today for a straightforward act of blasphemy, they would probably fall foul of article 10 of the European Convention on Human Rights, which gives you freedom of speech.”
“Unless they have weapons or tools with them, they have not committed the offence of "Going equipped for stealing". However, if they are in your garden and you believe that they are trying to commit a burglary, the "enclosed premises" offence can be used. I am glad that Mr Frew has filled that gap. There was a gap, because the police use that offence, and it is useful. <BR /> <BR />I fully support the amendment on organised begging. It is right that we do not treat people who are genuinely begging as criminals. However, anyone who profiteers from begging, organises it or uses it as a business model is, in fact, an organised criminal. I caution — I do not see it covered by that legislation — that there are some people who are beggars, if you like, but that is a deception, because they live a different kind of life.”
“When the guns fell silent and the men had served their duty, they were often left on the streets and arrested under those old laws. <BR /> <BR />There is one difficulty with repealing the Vagrancy Act, which lies around the ability of the police to use what is called the "enclosed premises" offence, which I have used. It is important that that offence is protected. I am therefore glad that it is protected in amendment No 71. It is important, because there are times when the police find someone who clearly has criminal intent but is not committing a prima facie offence. Let me give you an example. If you hear something in your rear garden at 2.00 am and see someone there who, you believe, is going to burgle your house, that person has not yet committed attempted burglary, because they have not even tried to get into the house.”
“I will try to be brief and to make up some time, because the issues have been well discussed and a lot of clarity has been given. <BR /> <BR />I support amendment Nos 45 to 48 on organised crime. It is right that we strengthen our provisions to support the police in bringing those who engage in organised crime to justice. I can move on from that. It is important legislation, and I am glad to support it. <BR /> <BR />I support the repeal of the Vagrancy Act 1824. It is legislation from a bygone era. As the Member for North Antrim said, it was often used to target those who had come back from war after serving their country and were lying rough. It is no coincidence that, some years later, in 1890, Rudyard Kipling wrote that great poem 'Tommy':”
“Just to clarify, is it the Member's position — I agree with the need to repeal the blasphemy laws — that the counterweight to that is having good free speech? Does the Member stand by free speech and the right of Christian preachers to preach the gospel across Northern Ireland?”
“I get your point, but I am worried that you are conflating apples with pears. Do you accept that nobody has actually been prosecuted under our blasphemy laws?”
“I say this to the people who did it, if they are listening: you are vile, contemptible people. You are the opposite of loyalists and the opposite of patriots. You are just the scum of the earth. <BR /> <BR />I wish that family all the very best. They are very welcome in Northern Ireland, and I look forward to meeting them if I can.”
“Indians provide a wonderful contribution to our society. They are entrepreneurial and hard-working. I am proud to have a member of the Indian community in my party. He rang me about this incident. I am trying to meet the victim of it. Those who committed this act and those who incited it are literally — I do not like to use this language in the Chamber — the scum of the earth. I doubt that they have done a day's work in their lives. When they are arrested and brought before the court, will we get the normal sob story and probably too much of a slap on the wrist? <BR /> <BR />I make this clear to the Indian community and all communities in this society: there is one rule of law; we all live under it; and you deserve as much protection as anyone else.”
“I condemn unreservedly the vile arson attack on the premises of a former gospel hall. The gentleman who was trying to build a business, create jobs and provide a service is the polar opposite of those who whipped up hysteria and those who attacked his shop. They are not patriots, and they do not have legitimate concerns. They are cowards. If they are involved in paramilitaries, they are not loyalists, because they are loyal to no one but themselves; they are gangsters. I wish the police well in catching them and anyone who incited it. <BR /> <BR />Just yesterday and in the past number of days, we have been remembering the service and sacrifice of real patriots who got on a boat and went and liberated Europe. Let it never be forgotten that 2·5 million Indians volunteered to fight for freedom; the largest voluntary army in World War II.”
“Under one of her amendments, someone aged 10 or 11 who replicated exactly the Jamie Bulger case could not be touched by the police, because the suspect's rights are far greater than the rights of the perpetrator. You can be a victim of a scandal, be that through the Post Office or in health, and you cannot get an inquiry, but if you are a family of a terrorist who went out to murder, you can get an inquiry at the drop of a hat. <BR /> <BR />All of that speaks to me about a society that is not standing for those who do the right thing and play by the rules and which does not properly stand for the most vulnerable in society. We should be laser focused on helping them and giving them support. As I go round the country, I feel a disconnect in society between government and politics and the people whom we are supposed to serve.”
“Our prison officers had to wait longer than anyone elsewhere in the United Kingdom to get a ban on smoking. Why? It was because the Justice Department put the rights of prisoners to smoke ahead of the rights of the prison officers to have clean air in their workplace. That sums up what has gone wrong in our society. When there is a balance to be struck between the rights of a perpetrator and the rights of a victim, consistently the victim's rights trump all. Ultimately, that will come when Ms Mulholland brings her amendment, which will mean that downblousing and upskirting and sexual assault and harassment in schools by anyone under 14 cannot be prosecuted.”
“Yet, when e-scooters are terrorising communities, the police cannot chase the e-scooter in case the rights of the suspect are infringed.”
“We saw that, of course, with that party during COVID: people were fined for walking their dog, but there are those who can flood the streets in a show of strength and nothing happens. <BR /> <BR />I speak to constituents all the time who have children with special educational needs and disabilities. They battle and battle for statements, yet there are people in our society — there are some whom other politicians do not want to talk about — who manipulate that system for their benefit to the detriment of those who really need it. <BR /> <BR />I am a great advocate of the Police Service. How many times have we seen law-abiding motorists who are taxed, insured and have their MOT get penalised for a minor infraction of the law from an automatic camera?”
“Government and politics should work for the hard-working people of our country, those who do the right thing, pay their taxes, obey the law, follow the rules and raise their families to the best of their ability. As I go round our great country, I begin to see that so many feel that it works the opposite way round. Working families who work so hard, juggling childcare, see no economic benefit to being out at work. We have farmers, businesses and householders who face bureaucratic obstacle after obstacle for trying to build a henhouse or get an extension or expand their business, yet, of course, we have statues to terrorists erected without planning permission and nothing is done.”
“That is why we have all kinds of systems to make sure that children are safe. For that reason, I support the Bill going through to the next stage.”
“I note the Minister's comments. <BR /> <BR />It is a profession. It is professional. That comes with responsibilities. We should stand up for our teachers, and we need to make sure that we stand up for our pupils. I would not want to have it on my conscience that we did not at least carry out probing scrutiny, at every opportunity, to find agreement on something that could protect even one child in our country. Sometimes there are bad people in good professions.”
“It would be easy for me to appeal to populism to try to score some quick points, but the Bill is too important for that. For that reason, I will support its going through —.”
“I will, with absolute pleasure, Mr Deputy Speaker. <BR /> <BR />Here is the essence of our position. This is too important to throw out in order to score some points on TikTok. There are two competing interests: the interests of our teachers to be treated fairly and the interests of our pupils to get a quality education and to be protected and safeguarded. We can find the right balance. We should look at the Bill and afford ourselves every opportunity to get that balance right, because nothing is more important than safeguarding our young people. Every other profession has inspections, which is right and proper. We need to make sure that the inspection is fair. I understand teachers' concerns about workload and whether there is a chilling effect on wider industrial rights.”
“On the face of it, it was unnecessary, OK? I also supported putting the holiday hunger Bill through to the next stage, even though I think that there are significant issues —.”
“I have never really been one to admire the competence of Sinn Féin. Its Members need to be honest on this point: there is a partitionist approach. Perhaps they do not trust teachers in the Republic of Ireland, and they trust them more in Northern Ireland. <BR /> <BR />I will get back to the nub of the issue. The reality is that we will have the opportunity to look at the Bill at its next stage, to probe it and look at amendments to make sure that we strike the right balance. However, to throw the Bill in its entirety out at this stage —.”
“That is why the Bill deserves to progress to Committee Stage, where we can look at that specific issue, but, if we —.”
“Whatever the merits of the argument, there is a divergence in its policy. It is now, in many ways, the party of partition. <BR /> <BR />I will get back to the core of the debate. There are amendments that we could look at to make sure that the sanction is proportionate, that it is not punitive and that it is sufficiently clear. There could be a warning, in the first instance. We need to see this —. <BR /> <BR />I will give way to Mr Sheehan. Are you looking for me to give way?”
“That is a very good point. It is relevant that the criminal sanctions have deterred anybody from engaging in action short of strike and disrupting inspections. I note — I am happy to be corrected if I am wrong — that it is a criminal offence to obstruct inspection in the rest of the United Kingdom and, of course, in our good neighbour, the Irish Republic. Of course, Sinn Féin, as I pointed out last week, has become the party of the hard border on the island of Ireland when it comes to many things, one of which is the issue of inspection in our schools. It is an offence in the Irish Republic, and I presume that its southern colleagues are not lobbying for a change to that law. However, it does not support inspection being protected here even by a disciplinary code.”
“Before we consider passing the Bill, it is right that we know what sort of sanction a teacher could get, because, as is clearly stated in case law, we should have clarity and certainty on the law. We need to know what the sanctions might be. There are options to put in amendments to make sure that the potential sanctions —.”
“For many years — probably about 20 years — he abused children in the school that I went to. If an inspection had looked at some of the really disturbing things that he was doing and had had an opportunity to speak to pupils, that abuse perhaps might not have taken place, but Dr Brown got away with it. Our RE classes were never inspected. That was the subject that he taught for years, and he abused a lot of people at Bangor Grammar School. I therefore have a passionate interest in getting this right. <BR /> <BR />However, we need to make sure that the protection of inspection is proportionate and fair and that the possible outcomes and consequences are properly defined. That is where we should focus our attention at the Committee Stage.”
“That is why I take a broadly similar position to that of the Chair of the Education Committee in saying that the Bill deserves to go through for further scrutiny at Committee Stage. <BR /> <BR />I say at the outset that it is fundamentally right that RE be included in inspections, because it is like any other subject, and we need to make sure that there is quality provision of education. The Supreme Court — as some people in the Chamber struggle to accept, unless it suits them — is the supreme court. It made a decision, and I respect that. I will give you a personal experience to show why I think that not only inspections but RE inspections are so important. I went to a school where one of the RE teachers was a paedophile. He abused my friends. I saw a lot of things that I should not have seen.”
“Striking a balance on legitimate and fundamentally important public interest issues is a solemn duty of the people in this place. There is no public interest duty more profound than that of balancing the rights of our teachers, who educate our young people, who are overworked, who are underpaid and who are struggling at times with being abused in our schools by a minority of pupils, which I have talked about recently, with the needs of our children to get the best possible education, to make sure that safeguarding is always paramount and to make sure that, if there is good practice, it is shared and that, if there is bad or dangerous practice, it is identified and dealt with.”
“There are two childcare providers in Ballymoney. Regional inequality is a big thing. I welcome the debate that Ms Mulholland has secured. It is critical that we help people early, give them the best opportunity and look after the members of our future workforce, who will eventually look after us.”
“If you grow up on one street, the chance of you becoming involved with police interventions is far higher than if you grow up on a street a couple of miles away. You are much more likely to die younger and have a lower quality of life. There is a postcode lottery, and we need to equalise opportunity. That is where early intervention is key. <BR /> <BR />It also comes down to things in the Education Minister's portfolio such as childcare. Every time the subsidy that is available for childcare goes up and parents are given more money, it has an inflationary impact on childcare costs, because local childcare providers put prices up. It benefits nobody. Parents who want to work cannot work and do not get support. They come home frazzled and unable to support their children. <BR /> <BR />There are so many issues. Ballymoney is a good example.”
“Because of busyness, pressures or issues that might be in the home, such as domestic violence, parents find it difficult to deal with issues such as taking a screen off a child. There are increased levels of homeschooling and anxiety or emotionally based school avoidance. That causes me huge concern about safeguarding, because we do not have a proper understanding of the numbers, and no proper assessment of the risks that are posed to children has been done. <BR /> <BR />A lot of significant reports, most of which have been commissioned in England, say that children who are homeschooled are at a much higher risk of abuse and neglect. I saw that at first hand in the police. It used to break my heart. While I am firm on law and order, I have compassion, because I know there is a bit of a postcode lottery in life.”
“The basics of literacy and numeracy flow from being able to communicate. Therefore, we need to shift everything way to the left. <BR /> <BR />There is some excellent work going on in health, with gateway services, family support and intervention teams and the community and voluntary sector, but we need to do more. There are a number of things that I want to address. The first is that investment in early years is absolutely critical. Support for parents in raising children and dealing with the challenges of today around screens and social media is something that we need to instil at the earliest stages. Teachers report an increased number of children coming to school who are behind in milestones but are fluent in using an iPad. When they go to take a screen off a child, the child becomes dysregulated.”
“It is really basic stuff. Teachers tell MLAs and others all the time about children coming in who are behind in milestones, such as being toilet-trained. Those are serious issues. <BR /> <BR />At the outset, I will say that what we need to do as a society is pick up things as early as possible. Let me give you one example. I spoke recently to two excellent speech and language therapists, who work in a speech and language therapy (SALT) team. They said that speech and language issues are identified years after they could have first been detected. There is a pilot in England that I found out about only today. I cannot remember the acronym for it, but it did a sample of children and found that it identified speech issues about three years earlier than normal. That allowed the intervention and allowed the children to flourish.”
“I thank my North Antrim colleague for raising this important subject. There is nothing more important in our society than children and young people. They should be our number-one spending priority. The Health Minister uses the phrase "shift left": if we really want to get into a preventative model for the delivery of public services in Northern Ireland, early intervention, early years and family support are critical. Not only are they vital in order to do the right thing for our young people and our families, but — realpolitik here — they are our future workforce. They are our future carers and our future public servants. <BR /> <BR />There are grave challenges in our society at the moment with increasing numbers of children who have additional needs, delayed development and special educational needs who are missing key milestones.”
“<BR /> <BR />For some reason, the human rights lobby, which has a role to play, has got us into a position in which public authorities focus on the rights of suspects and perpetrators and attach greater weight to them than they do to the rights of the victim. A recalibration is needed. We need parents to step up and make sure that their children are not watching extreme porn online. We need to support decisive interventions being made when boys treat women and girls in our schools like that. It has to end, and we need to address it.”
“What signal does that send to people about reporting that kind of extreme misogyny? We therefore have to get a grip on the issue in our society. <BR /> <BR />The case has now been dealt with, so I can comment on the following aspect. The judge laboured over all the mitigating factors but not over the aggravating factors. I see that happen time and time again. I was with Women's Aid last week. The crime of non-fatal strangulation was brought in by this place to great fanfare. It seeks to put men who strangle women behind prison bars. The vast majority of men who commit non-fatal strangulation do not get a custodial sentence, yet that crime is at the far end of the homicide timeline. It is a red flag that a man will murder a woman in the community.”
“When a teacher raises the issue on behalf of a pupil or themselves, they are often made to feel as though they are the problem. The school asks, "What do you want us to do?", because, too often, their hands are tied when it comes to making decisive interventions. <BR /> <BR />We need parents to get a grip on what their young people watch, because, at home, they are watching extreme porn and extremely misogynistic influencers. That is polluting their young brains. The extreme outworking of that is what we saw in England, where two 14-year-old boys raped two schoolgirls, videoed it and put it on social media. Followers called the schoolgirls "slags". What signal did the judge send? Not one single day will be spent in prison by those two boys, who were aided and abetted by a 13-year-old.”
“Last week, I brought to the public's attention the extraordinary number of physical assaults on our teachers and classroom assistants. There have been 2,500 assaults. What is even more shocking, however, is the sexual harassment, abuse and extreme misogyny to which some young boys are subjecting our female teachers and female pupils. Up and down the country, I have heard shocking evidence, which has been repeated at Committee and in my constituency office, of upskirting, downblousing and cyber-flashing. I have heard of young boys openly telling teachers what they would like to do to them, where, how and when, and of them standing in front of a female teacher saying, "You can't tell me what to do. Only a male teacher can". I have heard about deepfakes and extreme objectivisation.”
“When the guns began to shoot, those men and women put on the uniform and tackled those who put on a balaclava. They did not disappear people like your organisation did, Mr Kelly. They did not have kangaroo courts or drill into people's knees. They did not lay people down naked at the border with a bag over their head. They did not tar and feather women. They did not tell people that they could not report rapes and sexual assaults. It was the Provisional IRA that did that, yet, somehow, we have ended up in a situation where men and women who served with honour are worried about a knock on the door and being smeared as having engaged in collusive behaviour. It is shameful. <BR /> <BR />Marie Anderson's conduct was shameful. Yesterday was a good day for the Northern Ireland Retired Police Officers Association (NIRPOA).”
“<BR /> <BR />In 1890, Rudyard Kipling put it well when describing how this country treats those who put on a uniform and serve:”
“Yesterday, the judge said that she had acted beyond her powers and that a disclaimer had to go on every one of those reports. <BR /> <BR />History is being rewritten in front of our eyes by the men who now look at me. I look at Mr Kelly, who was a terrorist, and I say this: every terrorist, loyalist or republican, was wrong. Any who wore a uniform and did something wrong — there were few: very, very few — should be held to account, but we have turned the microscope the wrong way round. Some 99% of cases are looking at the law-abiding forces of law and order, who are subjected to endless inquiries, yet loyalists and republicans, who blew people to smithereens, have statues of them erected without planning permission. Such statues remain, and the "First Minister for all" dares to go to the unveilings.”
“Yesterday's judgement at the High Court was a withering indictment of the Office of the Police Ombudsman and of the competence, integrity and fairness of its previous officeholder, Ms Marie Anderson. <BR /> <BR />The ombudsman's job is to investigate, not to adjudicate. It is to look at a complaint or allegation and send a file of evidence to the Public Prosecution Service (PPS), but, no, not Ms Anderson when it comes to how we treat the men and women of the Royal Ulster Constabulary. The ombudsman became judge, jury and executioner. Despite her sending files of "evidence", the PPS consistently said that there was nothing to see here. The ombudsman still found a definitive judgement of guilt, however, branding the men and women of the Royal Ulster Constabulary as being involved in collusive behaviour.”
“When I visit a classroom and am suddenly told that a teacher next door has just been concussed or I speak to teachers with broken ribs or other broken bones, I will speak up for them, because they do not feel that they get the support that they need. The issue should be given more publicity and attention. We need to support our teachers, pupils and parents so that we have schools that are safe for everybody.”
“<BR /> <BR />There is a wider culture here. I ask the Education Minister — I have written to him about it — to put in place an injury reduction plan for our schools and make sure that schools are empowered to deal swiftly with pupils who are disruptive. Such pupils disrupt the vast majority, who are well behaved. I will say things that other people do not want to say, such as that, while the vast majority of parents are good people who do the right thing, teachers have experience of parents who abuse them; when the parent's son or daughter is told off, teachers get abuse rather than support. <BR /> <BR />We have to deal with these issues, because we have men and women — mostly women — who go to school to do their level best and work hard.”