Jon Burrows
North Antrim · Ulster Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“It is invasive for someone to be cross-examined by the person who has caused them grave trauma and great hurt — the person who has victimised them. Cross-examination can be done by legal counsel, which is sound.”
“It is adversarial for good reason, but there are really important things that we can do when it comes to process, the system, dealing with cross-examination, disclosure and character references. I hope that we have a victims and witnesses commissioner who is the loudest and strongest voice for victims.”
“I agree. I rang one of the victims on the evening after the conviction and apologised. Even though I had no role over Mr Campbell, I said that I was ashamed that that man, Lloyd-Lavery, was ever employed by the party or by an MLA and ashamed that the man who gave him a character reference was a former chair of our party.”
“I welcome the Bill. It is long overdue, because our justice system in Northern Ireland is tilted towards the interests of suspects and perpetrators over and above the interests of victims and the general public.”
“There is always a balance to be struck between the rights of an unconvicted person who has been accused of a crime and the rights of the victim, and we need to get that balance right. We should never forget that there have been miscarriages of justice in our country down through the years.”
“<BR /> <BR />The Education Minister should have included the measure in the School Uniforms (Guidelines and Allowances) Bill. That would have achieved it far more efficiently, but it was not done.”
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“No, I will not give way. I have heard enough from you, Mr Carroll.”
“That is the man whom you follow today. There has been devastating loss on both sides, and I have as much empathy for the bereavement of Palestinians as I do for Israelis. They are both made in God's image. Israel has a responsibility to prosecute its war with as much precision and proportionality as possible, but that is made nigh on impossible by the fact that Hamas weaved itself into the community in Palestine. It embeds itself into schools and hospitals. In fact, the fact that it weaves itself into every nook and cranny of Palestinian society is something that the next president of Ireland has hailed as a good thing. Israel can be judged, as every state should be, on its prosecution of war. Not by this Chamber, but by those with the expertise and the evidence to do so. <BR /> <BR />Let me tell you why I will oppose the motion.”
“I rise with a deep sense of regret and dismay: regret that so many Members of this House are being led by a man whose conduct in the hours after that awful attack on the people of Israel was nothing short of outrageous and regret that the passion and intensity that they whip up at times like this are not replicated when we are dealing with domestic public services issues. If they were, perhaps services might not be in the mess that they are. <BR /> <BR />Let me say at the outset that there has been terrible loss on both sides, but let us look at where this first began. The attack on the people of Israel was an evil one. Twelve hundred people were killed, 250 people were taken hostage, babies were butchered and women and girls were raped. That is the Palestinian resistance that this man fist-pumped, shamefully, on social media.”
“Michael and Marjorie Cawdery were innocent, 83-year-old pensioners who were, I have to say — I served in the district at the time — butchered by Thomas McEntee in their own home. Only in Northern Ireland would the killer be walking around free eight years later. There is something very wrong with our justice system. <BR /> <BR />Specifically on pre-release testing, to describe an error whereby a double killer was released onto our streets 13 times as being an administrative error is insulting to every victim that has been affected. There was a catastrophic systems failure of training, IT, safeguards, processes and leadership. It is more than the pre-release testing system that is not fit purpose; it is the Minister. Do you agree?”
“This time, however, it is junior constables who are being manipulated, coerced and controlled. I will be eternally vigilant to the attempts of that party to control and manipulate our police officers. I can tell you that they trust me and will bring those issues to me if they feel that no one else is listening. I will hold you to account. You have a long way to go on policing. It is time that you took the final step and signed up to normal, democratic policing and stopped trying to use your influence to intimidate, bully and coerce our police officers day and daily in their jobs. You are politicians like anyone else. The army is gone, and you have no more threats. I will ensure that the PSNI stands up to your bullying and your pressure.”
“It is clear to me, however, that, since Sinn Féin joined the Policing Board in 2007, it has tried to control, coerce and manipulate police officers. After Gerry Adams was arrested, Bobby Storey stood up and said very clearly, "Hands off our party leader". Sinn Féin tries to create a chill factor every time that the police enforce a law against its community or against one of its own. I have heard the pressure and the lobbying, and I have had the phone calls, and I never succumbed to it. The previous Chief Constable lost his job because two senior members of Sinn Féin told him to suspend an officer who was entirely innocent and threatened that, if he did not, they would call for his resignation on the 'Sunday Politics' show a few days later. <BR /> <BR />That is what we are dealing with.”
“I revealed that last week, and I have written to the Chief Constable so that he makes a clear direction that that does not happen again and that his officers are told to resist such approaches. This morning's 'Nolan' show revealed that that is routine practice in west Belfast. That is shameful. I want to hear what the Policing Board members say about that in the course of the rest of the week.”
“The risk of political policing in Northern Ireland remains current, and that is a risk from Sinn Féin, which is continuing to interfere in policing in this country. I revealed last week that Sinn Féin was demanding — I see that its Members cannot look up, probably in shame — that PSNI officers not carry their firearms into meetings, community meetings and Sinn Féin offices. That is not only dangerous, putting an invidious pressure on our officers, but represents a breach of policing by consent and the very nature of democratic policing. No political party can interfere with the operational independence of our police officers, let alone a party with the history of Sinn Féin.”
“There is much merit in the motion, but this is not about political point-scoring; it is about getting the right strategy and the right support.”
“They feel that they do not have sufficient support to deal with the increasingly difficult, challenging and complex behaviour being seen in children in numbers that did not exist in the past. The evidence base for that is clear in the rise of special educational needs and in the delays in development that school principals report with children increasingly coming to school perhaps 18 months or two years behind.”
“I know that a lot of those involved in childminding and nursery-school teaching do not feel that they have sufficient accreditation or professional skill recognition and that they are dealing with issues that are beyond their capability in the complex needs that are presented to them. I hear that increasingly in primary schools. That is why a lot of teachers in primary school — P1 and P2 — are injured daily, being kicked, bitten or spat at. I say that without judgement, but it is the reality that they face. That difficulty, that challenge and that behaviour are also faced by people who are childminding and those involved in nursery education and support.”
“That is not judgement of the parent, but it is another obstacle that our nursery-school teachers face by the time a child gets there: they are having to deal with that issue. Some of the nursery-school teachers that I have spoken to find that the child does not want to go into nursery school because they are told that they cannot have their screen or that it will be controlled. Those are societal issues that I did not face when growing up, because there were no screens like that. Parents need support in dealing with those issues. <BR /> <BR />Recruitment and retention of nursery-school teachers is a really significant issue.”
“We need more of an education or awareness campaign on the various supports that are available, as well as increasing them. <BR /> <BR />I am doing some touring around the country to schools, nurseries and parents, and I hear directly from parents that they find that raising children is a complex and difficult thing. It is not easy. In all these strategies, we need to get more support to skill parents in that very difficult role. They are bringing up children in an environment that is different from what it was in the past, particularly in the availability of screens. I hear from parents that that is a particularly difficult aspect. When children get as far as nursery school, I often hear that there is a problem in trying to get the child away from a screen.”
“I also hear from constituents who are dropping out of employment or taking pauses in it in order to mind their children. The reality is that they are mostly women. That is not to say that that is the right or wrong thing, but, in our society, it is often women who bear the greatest responsibility for raising children. That leads into things like the gender pay gap, because, during those critical times, women are not getting advancement at work or promotion. Therefore, it is really important to support women generally in society so that we get this absolutely correct. Some of the support for the cost of childcare is welcome, but I find, when I speak to people, that there is a lack of awareness of the existing support measures, such as the support with tax-free childcare.”
“That is a difficult thing, and perhaps only those in certain professional and well-paid jobs can afford it. In all these things, those who have the least are the hardest impacted.”
“An early learning and childcare strategy is certainly needed, and we hope that it comes as soon as possible. <BR /> <BR />I want to make a couple of points that transcend many of the arguments that we could have today. The first is to value childminders and those who provide support to young people at the start of their lives. I hear consistently that the number-one barrier is cost. In preparation for today's debate, I was speaking to a constituent who said that the cost of their childcare was £1,000 a month. That was for just three days a week because the grandparents provided two days worth of childcare. That family is incurring debt every month to pay for their childcare.”
“I am proud to represent North Antrim, which, in many ways, is the beating heart of the agri-food industry in Northern Ireland. I want to help the Minister restore confidence among farmers. If I set up a public meeting in North Antrim, will he commit to coming up to listen directly to the concerns of hard-working farmers there, who believe that he has a tin ear and is not listening.”
“<BR /> <BR />I stand in solidarity with the families of Bloody Sunday. It was an awful day. I also stand with the thousands of victims of loyalist and republican terrorists who do not get the same voice. We, in this party, speak for all victims — innocent victims, even if the Alliance Party struggles with that terminology.”
“When she was interviewed and told, "It is not too late. Can you tell us where they are?", she did not, knowing that the bombs were planted in hotels in London. <BR /> <BR />As someone whose family served at Sword Beach and the Somme and whose father served for the entire Troubles, I can say that Bloody Sunday was wrong. The British Army acted wrongly, but the prosecution of Soldier F was wrong. There was no evidence. That is the invisible hand of the PPS, which takes the path of least resistance. Turning a blind eye to anything that would rock the boat is a culture that emanated from the peace process. That is why there are people who are not prosecuted when there is evidence, and people who are prosecuted when there is no evidence. We still live under the shadow of a guillotine, which is the threat of Sinn Féin.”
“That is the difference between the British state and republicans, who still say that what they did was necessary and noble and who still celebrate their patriot dead. That is the cancer that is at the heart of our politics and that creates so much divisiveness and polarisation. They should reflect today on the fact that, while our Prime Minister was able to say that Bloody Sunday was unjustified and unjustifiable, their leaders continue to stand and give orations about those who murdered people in cold blood, not in the heat of the battle but in actions that were planned; they sneaked under people's cars and planted bombs. One of their former leaders, Martina Anderson, planted bombs all across England and then went to Scotland and lay in a flat while she knew that they were ticking down.”
“Bloody Sunday was an awful day for the people of Londonderry, and it was not a proud day for the British Army. Two things can, however, be wrong at the same time. Bloody Sunday was wrong — it was a catastrophic error by the British Army — but it was also wrong to prosecute Soldier F. That reflects the imbalance that is at the heart of how we deal with legacy in Northern Ireland. There is an imbalance in the prosecutions taken, the media reporting, the money spent and the condemnation expressed. <BR /> <BR />I was proud to stand in Guildhall Square on 15 June 2010 — there were only about three police officers there — when the Bloody Sunday families got to read the report. On the screen live was David Cameron, our Prime Minister at the time, and he said that Bloody Sunday was "unjustified and unjustifiable".”
“Their parents were battling to get back from work, and the children were sitting out. I spoke to one child who did not want to go back to school in case they missed their bus, but their bus was not coming. They were probably at more risk than if they had stayed in school. <BR /> <BR />We need leadership. We need an end-to-end adverse weather strategy that makes things better, prepares people, has prevention and mitigation and, at the end of everything, has a debrief so that we learn and keep improving our response. We should not get involved in ideological wars or a blame game.”
“In the busyness of responding to a late email, that had not been considered. If you were to plan in advance, that would be considered. If you had the email or communication earlier, the caterers would know, and they might make a packed lunch or whatever the case may be. <BR /> <BR />One of the problems that I have when we plan for major incidents like this is that sometimes Departments talk about public safety. I am convinced that public safety is about risk aversion and moving a risk from yourself to someone else. I worry that the Education Department simply moved the risk from itself to schools. The reality is that, for many children, the risk went up, not down. Instead of being in a well-managed school, children were sitting at bus stops in the elements.”
“Even if the decision that was made at 8.00 am had been communicated, it would have made a world of difference. That is why we have asked for a mobile communication system to allow, at one press of a button, the EA to communicate with every principal in every school to say, "The school is closing today". If that had bleeped in pockets at 8.00 am, there would have been an entirely different response. <BR /> <BR />If you had a strategy, you could see in advance the things that you need to do. You would, for example, have a contingency and be able to say, "Well, if schools close because of an adverse weather incident, one of the things that you have to factor in is free school meals". I spoke to many principals — three in one day — who told me that children went without free school meals that day.”
“<BR /> <BR />The communication also has to be up to date. Storm Amy is a very good example. A decision was taken at 8.00 pm that meant they were likely to call for school closures the next day, but the parents and schools knew nothing about it. Then, when the decision was taken at 8.00 am, parents and schools knew nothing about it. An email was sent, which sort of takes me back to the '90s. Someone typed out an email and pressed "send". That email might have landed in inboxes at 8.57 am. I have spoken to many principals, and the first thing that they do when they go into school might be to go to the school assembly or to the school gates with parents. They are not, however, checking their emails. That meant that, at 9.45 am, principals still had not checked their email, and then, suddenly, they had to do something.”
“No matter what you do, if you do not communicate, it will be a failure. I will raise the issue of the Education Authority's communication about storm Amy, and I will do so without judgement. When we have problems, we need to have the mindset that we are looking for learning and solutions, because then we will not be so resistant to those solutions or defensive of our own Ministry or whatever. The Ulster Unionist Party came out and called for a debrief after storm Amy, so that concrete learning could take place. That has to happen after every major adverse weather incident. Someone needs to chair a meeting to ask, "What are the three or four things that went well, what did not go well, how do we distil the learnings, and how do we improve?". That is why we called for a debrief, and I am glad that the Education Minister is doing it.”
“Planting and trimming trees are the things that the public need. However, that would be driven forward better if people could refer to one document that shows the strategy and mitigations. Those simple things can actually help people when there are difficulties. <BR /> <BR />An adverse weather strategy would affect every nook and cranny of what we do in public life. It would affect planning. You would be able to say, "How can the planning process make sure that planners or developers build more facilities that encourage better drainage and more solar panels?", because, of course, if people have solar panels and batteries, they would be less caught out if there was a power cut. All those things should be driven by one central strategy. <BR /> <BR />Communication is usually where things go wrong.”
“Absolutely, and that is where we need that pragmatism to steer a course through the matter, which is, of course, what the Ulster Unionist Party does best.”
“It absolutely does, but you have to do the simple, basic things well. If you do not do that, you cannot get buy-in for the grand project on climate change that we are trying to do. It is unforgivable that those things are not done. Also, when anyone goes out walking after a storm, they see all the power lines that have come down, and they can clearly see that the trees had not been cut. They might think, "Clearly, if that tree was going to fall, it was going to bring a power line down". That simple stuff needs to be done, but it is not.”
“That was the first thing about preparedness, but prevention is always better than cure. I do not want to get into the ideological debate about climate change, but I will say two things. As I said in my maiden speech, we are in an arm-wrestle, because we are trying to look after our climate in the long term and get things done in the short term. However, this is what is difficult to sell to the public: we talk about climate change when we are discussing flooding, yet they walk out and see a flooded street, and — do you know what? — the storm drain is not draining because it is full of debris. We cannot persuade people to change their lives, if we cannot clear the drains. There are simple things that need done across Northern Ireland, and part of the key to prevention is doing the simple things well, such as planting trees.”
“The public can then say, "Here is the kit that I need." I have it in my house — the batteries are charged up, and the torches are ready to go — because I am a bit of an anorak in that way, but the public need guidance.”
“That is the practical advice that should be got out there, and, because such incidents repeat themselves in a weather cycle, we could have it ready to go now so that it can be sent straight out when needed.”
“There would be an ongoing information campaign for the public about how households prepare for adverse weather incidents. There are some very simple things that people can do, such as making sure that their drains and gutters are clear and buying from Amazon, or other providers, wind-up radios, power banks and flasks so that they can have hot water. <BR /> <BR />When an adverse weather incident is coming, there should be something that we can pluck out in advance to communicate to people, such as, "In two days' time, when this hits, here are the five or six things that you need to do" and, "Identify two or three vulnerable neighbours or family members to check in with".”
“<BR /> <BR />What we need is an adverse weather strategy: one place to which people can go to see that the Executive Office has an overarching plan for how to deal with adverse weather incidents. End to end, that would make life for people in Northern Ireland so much better, because it would join up all the Departments and agencies and the 999 services so that there is a clear, robust and resilient plan to deal with adverse weather incidents. When we have such incidents, the same issues repeat themselves time and time again, and I am not convinced that there is a structured way of learning from each incident and continually improving our response to the next one. <BR /> <BR />Any strategy that is worth its salt begins with preparedness. Let me give Members a simple example of what a strategy would deliver.”
“Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. The motion is indeed timely, and debating it is exactly what our constituents and communities want to see us doing, which is deal with practical issues that have an impact on them, with less drama and more delivery for the people of Northern Ireland. <BR /> <BR />The motion is very important. Before I turn to it, we should acknowledge the work that our emergency services and community volunteers do. Whatever else we do or do not do in this place, we often send out messages saying, "Don't make journeys unless they're urgent" and, "Don't leave the house", yet there are men and women who have to leave the house, because their journeys are urgent. They take a risk on our behalf, often at considerable danger to themselves, so I recognise them.”
“I was on 'The Nolan Show' last week with the First Minister's former colleague Francie Molloy. He said that anyone with information about republican atrocities such as the Enniskillen bomb should give it to the police for them to undertake a criminal investigation. Does the First Minister believe that anyone with information about crimes committed by either loyalist or republican terrorists should give it to the lawful authority in order to support a criminal investigation? Yes or no?”
“I am just asking whether you will condemn it.”
“Will the Member condemn the defacing of Londonderry signs? Will he support people being arrested by the PSNI for that offence? Yes or no?”
“It is a positive day for schools, children and parents.”
“That is a very good question. There is a need for schools to develop such policies with boards of governors and parents, to consult on them and to come to their conclusion. What we do not want to do is to adopt an ideological position that prescribes what schools do. A sensible balance needs to be struck between having legislation that places a legal duty on schools to ensure that uniforms provide comfort, affordability and practicality — to me, that is the most important "CAP" — and having legislation that gives schools flexibility and discretion and provides for common sense, without that legislation being onerous and overly prescriptive. Let us judge the legislation and the guidelines on their outcomes. The opportunity to do that will be through a review. We are therefore happy to support the Bill.”
“That is why we have stated many times, conscious of the interpretive rules that courts can use, under the famous case of Pepper v Hart, that we must look at the purpose of the legislation, which is to bring affordability to the very centre of everything that schools do. Its purpose is also to ensure — this is a rigorous red line — that no child is stigmatised, disciplined or excluded because their parents cannot afford kit or uniform. That is why we have put that clearly on the record. Ultimately, that is the litmus test on which the legislation will be judged. We therefore hope, expect and, at this stage, trust, although we are verifying it through the available mechanism, that that is what the guidelines will do. It is a positive day.”
“Therefore, we will vote for the legislation. We think that it is a positive step. Maybe some of the issues that have been raised can be revisited at future times and in future debates. However, it is a good day for parents and young people. <BR /> <BR />Much has been said about the guidelines not being published in advance of the legislation. We take the Minister's word for it: he has obtained legal advice that the best thing is for the guidelines to follow the law. However, that is not to give the Minister a blank cheque. That is not how we interpret it. Clearly, the guidelines have to be of sufficient quality and clarity to achieve the core purpose of the Bill.”
“I was not present for the evidence sessions or the scrutiny as the Bill went through Committee Stage, but, I know, from what I have heard since, that all the members of the Committee are sincere and passionate about doing what they believe is right for children and parents. That common purpose is refreshing. Not everybody gets what they want in a Bill: the Ulster Unionist Party voted at times with the Minister and at times against him, because we judge things on their merits. <BR /> <BR />Our purpose was to ensure that the core aims of the draft legislation were met: that school uniforms are more affordable and that comfort and practicality lie at the heart of school uniform policy, but that that is tempered with flexibility and discretion for schools in doing nothing that undermines the esprit de corps that comes from wearing a uniform.”
“On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. I am concerned that the Justice Minister may have misled the Chamber in her answer to questions about Bailey the dog: specifically, that prison officers are and were trained in the deployment of emotional support dogs, including Bailey; and, secondly, that a suitability assessment was carried out before Bailey was placed in the prison. I engaged with the director general of the Northern Ireland Prison Service and the governor of Magilligan prison, and they said that that was not the case. The Minister needs to clarify and correct the record, if appropriate.”
“Can I make a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker?”
“Does the Minister not have any concern that, after 20 years of putting dogs in prisons, there is no legislation; no definition of what an emotional support dog is; no pre-suitability assessment was done of that particular dog; and there is a made-up policy of putting a pet dog in prison without any safeguards? That was confirmed to me by the director general of prisons in Northern Ireland and the prison governor at Magilligan.”
“It being 38% more expensive to live down south more than wipes out any increase in pay, and there is a huge risk of an economic shock from a united Ireland. As people begin to listen to the false narratives around a united Ireland, they will soon hear the facts that you are better off in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.”
“<BR /> <BR />We are also better off as part of the UK with its big, deep and broad economy. The fifth largest economy in the world, it is a member of the World Bank and the IMF and is able to set its own interest rates and to deal with the shocks of things such as COVID or the credit crunch. That is why this country was able to give a preferential loan of £3·25 billion to the Irish Republic at a time when it needed it, which showed that we are always benevolent neighbours of the Irish Republic. The reality is that having a domestic market of 70 million people over a domestic market of five million allows the price of a chicken to be £5 in Northern Ireland and €8 in the Republic of Ireland. Young people were here with us earlier. In the Irish Republic, they would need an extra £25,000 to get on the housing ladder.”
“Thankfully, we have membership of NATO — the fifth largest military force in the world —— and we all live under the protection of our intelligence services, GCHQ and police services. <BR /> <BR />By being in the United Kingdom, we are safer from international terrorism, organised crime and, indeed, all the threats from countries such as North Korea, Iran, China and Russia. Furthermore, our peace is best protected in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland because there is an agreement that, largely speaking, has ended all violence. The republicans have given up and stood roundly defeated by the forces of law and order. Aside from the desperate remnants of dissidents, we now live in peace. To upset that by having a risky constitutional upheaval would be madness.”
“The best place for the people of Northern Ireland is within the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland for our peace, prosperity, safety and security. That is something that the people of Northern Ireland need to hear more. <BR /> <BR />Members may have watched the recent BBC 'Panorama' programme that reported on how international drug cartels exploit the weaknesses of the Irish Defence Forces to flood Ireland and, by extension, the United Kingdom and Europe with cocaine. To hear the drug traffickers say, "Avoid British waters and focus on Irish waters, because the Irish have radios, but the British have ships", is a stark reminder of how vulnerable we and the entire west of Europe would be under a united Ireland.”