John Swinney
Scottish National Party · Scotland
“Since the report from several years ago was published, the Government has presided over the passage of legislation to rationalise that area of activity. Work is under way to transfer the responsibility for the funding of further education student support from the Scottish Funding Council to the Student Awards Agency Scotland.”
“I appreciate the urgency of the general policy elements of the question, because a number of applications are now being considered by planning authorities. My view is that, given the concerns that have been expressed by planning authorities, the Government has to be responsive to the issue.”
“For as long as we do not have a proper strategy on prison capacity, rehabilitation and clearing the court backlog, early release will be a revolving door, with people going in, coming out and going back into our prisons. Our justice system is in crisis, so we need a strategy.”
“I associate myself unreservedly Mr Cole-Hamilton’s comments about the feelings in the Muslim community. On Monday, I visited the Broomhouse mosque along with Simita Kumar and the Annandale Street mosque in Edinburgh with Ben Macpherson.”
“The development of further guidance will be undertaken in a manner consistent with the ruling by Lady Ross. Malcolm Offord: I thank the First Minister for his answer, which was more comprehensive than I expected.”
“I am a huge supporter of apprenticeship programmes. With foundation apprenticeships and graduate apprenticeships, the Government has brought forward important reforms that create new and successful pathways for young people. I am determined to make sure that every young person has that desirable pathway for their future.”
The complete record
Every one of 2,608 lines we hold for John Swinney, in date order, each linked to its source. Free to read, in full, without an account. Page 26 of 53.
“This issue relates to the successor funds to European funding, which has been of great significance to Scotland for many years. That funding has helped us with a range of priorities, particularly in relation to employability and the delivery of local infrastructure. In essence, the UK Government has provided a sum of £547 million to the Welsh Government but it proposes to bypass the Scottish Government in not deploying those resources in Scotland. The finance secretary has raised the issue with the UK Government, but the responses have been unsatisfactory, as have the details from the UK Government about the direct connection that it has established with local authorities. Frankly, the information is woefully presented to local authorities.”
“We are engaged with Highland Council in trying to find alternative solutions to the situation, and we are in regular contact with the council. Measures have been put in place for alternative transport arrangements, but I accept that the Aberdeen to Wick link is very important to the local community. We are working with Highland Council to establish what alternatives can be brought forward. I will, of course, be very happy for members to be kept updated on the issue by the relevant minister.”
“The Wick to Aberdeen public service obligation contract is a lifeline route for people in the far north, and passengers need assurances now about its future. The First Minister will be aware that Sumburgh airport, given its proximity to the offshore energy sector, is a vital part of the North Sea connectivity network. What discussions has the Government had about an alternative airline for the PSO route and transport for oil workers? Will he commit to a statement from the Scottish Government outlining its approach to the impact of the collapse of Eastern Airways? The First Minister: I recognise the significant practical issues that Beatrice Wishart raises. The Aberdeen to Wick PSO is a Highland Council PSO.”
“The decision by Eastern Airways to file a notice of intention to appoint administrators is a matter of significant concern, and it will have a significant impact on communities and businesses. I understand that this will be a worrying time for the airline’s staff, including those who are based at Sumburgh airport in Shetland. Should individuals be facing redundancy, the Scottish Government will provide support through our initiative for responding to redundancy situations, which is partnership action for continuing employment. Individuals can access support online or by calling the helpline. Advice for affected customers is available on the Highland Council website. Beatrice Wishart: The news about Eastern Airways will be devastating to the more than 330 workers who are facing redundancy, including nine people in my constituency.”
“Mr Marra does not understand that the resources that are contained in the underspend are all used in this current financial year—they are allocated, supporting the reductions in waiting lists that I am presiding over and providing—[Interruption.] The Presiding Officer: Let us hear one another. The First Minister: They are providing for the expansion of social security, including the Scottish child payment. For absolute completeness, I also say to Mr Marra that £247 million of the underspend cannot be used for public services in Scotland because it is part of the United Kingdom’s control of the budget. I suggest that Mr Marra goes away and gets a book about elementary accounting before he asks me any more questions. Eastern Airways 7.”
“The First Minister: If that was an explanation of the intellectual capability of the aspiring Labour finance secretary, Scotland has a lot of trouble coming its way if Mr Marra gets anywhere near the public finances. Mr Marra is a member of this Parliament— indeed, he is a member of the Finance and Public Administration Committee—and he should have some idea of what he is talking about, but he has just demonstrated to Parliament that he does not have a clue about the public finances. Not a single penny of the underspend announced in the annual accounts of the Scottish Government—on which I repeat that the Audit Scotland opinion was unqualified, as has been the case for every single year of this Government’s term in office since 2007-08—represents a loss of spending power. Every year there has been an unqualified opinion.”
“I welcome Audit Scotland’s unqualified opinion and the points raised by the Auditor General, which recognise that the underspend does not represent a loss of spending power to Scotland. Michael Marra: This knackered Scottish National Party Government’s handling of public money is a disaster for Scotland and the Auditor General could not be clearer on that point. Labour has delivered an additional £5.2 billion for Scotland’s services. [Interruption.] The Presiding Officer: Let us hear Mr Marra. Michael Marra: Mr Swinney ludicrously labelled that a continuation of austerity, but we now know that he underspent that budget by £1 billion while one in six Scots suffer in pain on national health service waiting lists. First Minister, where on earth has the rest of the money gone? The Presiding Officer: Always speak through the chair.”
“That information will be shared with Parliament and subject to the usual scrutiny. Consolidated Accounts (Report) 6.”
“Since the Scottish National Party first promised to dual the A96 under Alex Salmond’s Government in 2011, there have been no fewer than 16 transport secretaries and ministers, all of whom have kicked the can down the road. Will the First Minister give us an answer today, stop playing games with the lives of motorists in the north-east, and finally honour his party’s 2011 promise to fully dual the A96? The First Minister: A range of different measures have been taken by ministers to address the issue of safety on the A96. I recognise that significant challenges remain, but ministers are fully engaged in that particular question. In relation to the capital investment programme, the Government will set out to Parliament in January the infrastructure investment plans and the issues that we can take forward within the current fiscal context.”
“The Scottish Government’s position is that it is committed to fully dualling the A96. The feedback received following the publication of the draft corridor review outcomes, a summary of which was published in June, will help to inform the final decision on how best to take forward improvements, while recognising the current economic challenges. Future decisions will be shaped by the available and planned budgets, which will be influenced by the United Kingdom Government’s autumn budget and by the forthcoming Scottish Government infrastructure investment plan, which will be published in the new year. Douglas Lumsden: The north-east has been named Scotland’s road death capital after 24 people were killed and a further 384 were injured across the region last year.”
“Will there be any, or is that another trampling over devolved powers? The First Minister: All I can say to Christine Grahame is that the Scottish Government would be very willing to take forward discussions with the UK Government but that there have been no discussions with the Ministry of Defence on its proposals on funding for the renovation of military housing. The Scottish Government stands ready to do that because of the important issues of community connection that Christine Grahame raises; I assure her that the Government is willing to take part in discussions. A96 Dualling 5.”
“I represent Glencorse barracks, which is in my constituency, and am well aware of how tough it is already for the families of servicemen and women who do not have a settled home and are nomadic on account of their partner’s postings. The very least that they deserve is decent accommodation, so I give a big tick to that. However, the recently published 124-page UK “Defence Housing Strategy 2025”, makes only four references to the devolved nations and the use of surplus MOD land for civilian housing takes us straight into the issue of devolved competencies. Paragraph 3.13 of the strategy says: “It is important that the Defence Housing Service works in a collaborative way across the UK Government” and “devolved governments” but it appears that there has not been any collaboration.”
“When I provided evidence on behalf of the Scottish Government to the UK Government’s strategic defence review, I raised the fact that the quality and maintenance of service accommodation are a major concern for service families based in Scotland, and said that the UK Government should ensure that our service personnel and their families live in accommodation that is fit for purpose. Plans for investment were initially announced in the strategic defence review earlier this year but, to date, there has been no discussion of the renovation of Ministry of Defence-owned housing in Scotland. Christine Grahame: I am delighted that the UK Government is, at last, set on remedying the state of some military housing.”
“The Scottish Government recognises that, as I explained in my first answer to Mr Greer, there will be a need for the utilisation of some oil and gas resources for the foreseeable future. That has to be undertaken in a way that is compatible with our journey to net zero. That is the approach that the Scottish Government will take. Military Homes (Renovation) 4.”
“The First Minister: I think that, generally, people will see me as being on Scotland’s side in everything that I do. [Interruption.] The Presiding Officer: I am finding it difficult to hear the First Minister from here and I know that those who have gathered with us in the gallery would like to hear whoever is called to speak. The First Minister: I have to be mindful of the fact that we are delivering a just transition—not any old transition, but a just transition. A just transition enables me to look the staff of oil and gas companies in the eye and say that we are doing everything possible to manage the transition to avoid the industrial devastation that Scotland experienced under the mercenary actions of the Conservative Government in the 1980s, which I will not repeat.”
“All that it will do is funnel more money into the pockets of Equinor’s super-rich shareholders. Every single penny that those mega-polluters and Governments sink into new oil and gas projects takes us even further away from the investment in renewables that we really need. The two most recent former First Ministers were brave enough to say that but, today, the Scottish National Party’s Westminster leader, Stephen Flynn, demanded that the UK Government— The Presiding Officer: Briefly, Mr Greer. You must put a question. Ross Greer: He demanded that the UK Government give those planet-wrecking corporations a tax cut. The First Minister needs to pick a side. The Presiding Officer: Ask your question, Mr Greer. Ross Greer: I asked him again: will he oppose the Rosebank oilfield?”
“The question that must be addressed, given society’s requirements in that respect, is: can any of that activity be compatible with our journey to net zero? That is the policy position of the Scottish Government. Ross Greer: I asked the First Minister a yes or no question, but I did not get an answer. Both his predecessors were capable of giving a clear answer to that question. He says that it is a question of climate compatibility, but Equinor has just admitted that Rosebank would create 250 million tonnes of new carbon emissions. That is clearly incompatible with any chance of meeting our climate ambitions. However the First Minister spins it, approving Rosebank would be a disaster for people and planet. It will do nothing to reduce energy bills.”
“The approach that the Scottish Government has taken consistently through my time as First Minister, and the terms of Humza Yousaf and Nicola Sturgeon, is to insist on the importance of a climate compatibility assessment for any development that is proposed. That is the position that has been adopted in legal judgments that require the United Kingdom Government to go through the process that it is currently going through in relation to the applications that are being made. That is the point of consistency. Any development of oil and gas licensing has to be compatible with our journey to net zero. The importance of that—which is widely accepted, and I think that even members of the Green Party accept it—is that, for some time, there will be a requirement to utilise fossil fuels as we transition from our current situation to net zero.”
“Of course, last year—I have told Parliament about this before, but I will say it again so that Mr Sarwar does not forget about it—a record number of hip and knee operations were carried out. That demonstrates the progress that the NHS is making under my leadership. I am determined to deliver for the people of Scotland. That is what our initiatives and the investment that we are making are delivering, and we intend to ensure that that is applicable for people in every part of our country. Equinor Application 3.”
“In a range of individual cases, there can be significant complexities and health implications that make it impossible for particular procedures to be undertaken because of the vulnerability of the patients involved. In general, however, there are too many people who have been waiting for too long. That is why we are now seeing reductions in the size of waiting lists and in long waits, with the figures in all the long-wait categories of 12 months, 24 months and 36 months coming down. We are also seeing an increase in the number of procedures that are being undertaken within the national health service. That means that more people are being treated and more procedures are being delivered.”
“In that period, we have had five SNP health secretaries and three SNP First Ministers—we have even had a new King and a new Pope—but that person has still had no treatment. So, enough of the apologies, because they simply will not cut it any more. Does that not prove that Scotland’s NHS cannot risk a third decade of this tired and incompetent SNP Government? The First Minister: As I have said, where there are failings in our public services, I will honestly and candidly accept them and be held to account for them, but, equally, I will set out to Parliament the progress that has been made under my leadership in improving the performance of the national health service. Mr Sarwar has cited issues to do with long waits. I have looked closely at long waits, along with the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care.”
“Anas Sarwar: That is the First Minister’s response to hearing that, 10 years ago, an ambulance arrived in 10 minutes in 83 per cent of life-threatening cases; seven years ago, that happened 73 per cent of the time; and, now, the figure is only 61 per cent. That is putting lives at risk right across the country. John Swinney and the Scottish National Party are failing our national health service and failing the people of Scotland every single day. On his watch, we have an ambulance crisis that is putting lives in danger, a patient who has been waiting for more than four years for cardiology and neurosurgery consultations, another patient who has been waiting for six years for general surgery and a child who has been waiting for five and a half years for surgery. Shockingly, one Scot has been waiting for eight years to be seen—eight years.”
“I can say that Scottish Ambulance Service staffing has gone up by 31 per cent in the past 10 years and that we now have more paramedics— the number of paramedics has gone up by 57.6 per cent in the past 10 years. I can also say that, according to the most recent data that is available to me, the median response time for purple calls was 7 minutes 51 seconds. That information is relevant and important because it relates to the optimum time for the delivery of a response by the Scottish Ambulance Service. Our staff are working with more resources, under incredible demands, to meet the expectations of members of the public, and, in the overwhelming majority of cases in the country, that is exactly what they do.”
“Ten years ago, 83 per cent of life- threatening cases saw an ambulance arrive in 10 minutes; when David McClenaghan died seven years ago, that figure had fallen to just 73 per cent; and now, it is 61 per cent. That is shocking. Why is the situation continuing to get worse and worse on John Swinney’s watch? Do not simply stand up and say that you are sorry. The Presiding Officer: Always speak through the chair. The First Minister: I recognise that there will be occasions on which public services do not meet the expectations of members of the public. I think that the right thing to do—I will do this no matter what Mr Sarwar puts to me or how he characterises my responses—is to be honest and open with the public and to apologise when those standards are not met.”
“In those cases in which they do not deliver, people can expect the First Minister to address those issues and to apologise accordingly. Anas Sarwar: Week after week, John Swinney apologises for the Government’s performance and things continue to get worse. A month ago, he apologised for long ambulance waits, but apologies simply will not cut it any more. When Scots call 999, they expect help to come. That is what David McClenaghan expected when he had a heart attack. He called for help and gave his address, but when the ambulance arrived, the crew never even got out. David was later found dead on the floor. That was seven years ago, and a fatal accident inquiry is now under way. Since then, response times have got worse.”
“I am very open with Parliament about occasions when public services do not meet the reasonable and legitimate expectations of members of the public. I looked into the Brooke Paterson case, and the examination of the information that was available to me showed that an error had been made in the classification of that call. That is regrettable, and I have apologised in writing to her. In relation to the case of Charlie Fox, the length of time that he was left to wait appears to me to be completely unacceptable. The Scottish Ambulance Service is investigating the circumstances behind the incident, and I apologise for the length of the wait that he experienced. Our public services continue to operate under enormous pressure, but they also deliver a fantastic service to members of the public in most cases, although not in all cases.”
“He said: “the UK Government should have increased income tax.”—[Official Report, 14 November 2024; c 13.] The tax rises will be a hammer blow to Scottish workers. We have two left-wing parties that only want to tax, tax, tax. Labour is doing the same as the Scottish National Party has done for the past decade. Most workers in Scotland pay more than those in the rest of the UK who do the same job and earn the same amount. The SNP has increased taxes, driven away aspirational workers, damaged business confidence and held back Scotland’s economy. [Interruption.]”
“The Chancellor of the Exchequer will be accountable for the decisions that she makes, and the Scottish Government will take our decisions accordingly and respond. I observe that the decision that was taken in last year’s budget, to which Mr Findlay has referred, to increase employer national insurance contributions has had a profoundly damaging effect on the economy in a variety of areas, because it has increased the cost of employment. It was an absurd policy decision to take by a Government that is apparently focused on a growth agenda, because the decision is stifling growth in our country today. Russell Findlay: I agree entirely with the First Minister about employer national insurance contributions, but he does not seem to know whether he supports Labour’s tax rises. I remind him of what he said after last year’s UK budget.”
“There has been a huge amount of speculation about the United Kingdom Government’s budget. The Scottish Government will set out our position on tax in the budget on 13 January, and we will consider all the issues and the implications of the UK Government’s budget in November. Russell Findlay: Labour is breaking promise after promise. Rachel Reeves called last year’s budget a “once in a Parliament” event. She claimed that she would not be coming back with more tax rises this year. She claimed that she would stick to her manifesto promise not to raise income tax and not to hit working people with higher bills, but that is exactly what Labour is set to do. If John Swinney will not rule out tax rises, does he think that Labour is right to increase income tax? The First Minister: Decisions on tax issues have to be taken very carefully.”
“This Sunday, we will once again pause to remember the brave men and women who selflessly laid down their lives to protect our country and to provide us with the freedoms and security that we enjoy today. In our shared moment of silence, in the poppies that we wear, in parades and in solemn ceremonies, we honour their courage and their sacrifice. We will always remember who they were and what they did for us: countless men and women who fought to protect and preserve our democratic way of life. Alongside our acts of remembrance over the coming week, let us commit ourselves once again to the same fundamental values that define who we are as a nation. We do that so that their great sacrifice may never be in vain.”
“Motion agreed to, That the Parliament agrees that the Land Reform (Scotland) Bill be passed. The Presiding Officer: The next question is, that motion S6M-19535, in the name of Graeme Dey, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, on approval of a Scottish statutory instrument, be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No. The Presiding Officer: There will be a division. The vote is closed.”
“On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I was unable to connect to the system. I would have voted yes. The Presiding Officer: Thank you, First Minister. We will ensure that that is recorded. For Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP) Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire South) (SNP) Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP) Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP) Choudhury, Foysol (Lothian) (Ind) Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab) Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD) Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Don-Innes, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP) Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Lab) Ewing, Annabelle (Cowdenbeath) (SNP) Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP) FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) Forbes, Kate (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) Gilruth, Jenny (Mid Fife and Glenrothes) (SNP) Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP) Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Gray, Neil (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (LD) Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP) Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Lennon, Monica (Central Scotland) (Lab) Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP) Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP) Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP) Marra, Michael (North East Scotland) (Lab) Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (Ind) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP) McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD) McKee, Ivan (Glasgow Provan) (SNP) McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP) McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP) McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab) Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP) O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab) [Proxy vote cast by Michael Marra] Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD) Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Russell, Davy (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (Lab) Sarwar, Anas (Glasgow) (Lab) Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP) Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP) [Proxy vote cast by Fulton MacGregor] Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab) Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP) Thomson, Michelle (Falkirk East) (SNP) Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP) Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab) Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab) Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP) Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD) Against Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Ind) Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con) Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con) Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con) Eagle, Tim (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Findlay, Russell (West Scotland) (Con) Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Gallacher, Meghan (Central Scotland) (Con) Golden, Maurice (North East Scotland) (Con) Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con) Gulhane, Sandesh (Glasgow) (Con) Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) Hoy, Craig (South Scotland) (Con) Halcro Johnston, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con) Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con) Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con) McCall, Roz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con) Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Reform) Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con) Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con) White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con) Abstentions Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green) Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green) Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (Ind) Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green) [Proxy vote cast by Patrick Harvie] Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green) [Proxy vote cast by Patrick Harvie] Regan, Ash (Edinburgh Eastern) (Ind) Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green) Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green) [Proxy vote cast by Maggie Chapman] The Presiding Officer: The result of the division on motion S6M-19421, in the name of Mairi Gougeon, is: For 85, Against 28, Abstentions 9.”
“Amendment 320 disagreed to. 20:00 The Deputy Presiding Officer: I call amendment 321, in the name of David Torrance, which has already been debated with amendment 232.”
“For Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con) Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con) Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Choudhury, Foysol (Lothian) (Ind) Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab) Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con) Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Lab) Eagle, Tim (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (Ind) Findlay, Russell (West Scotland) (Con) Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Gallacher, Meghan (Central Scotland) (Con) Golden, Maurice (North East Scotland) (Con) Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con) Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) Gulhane, Sandesh (Glasgow) (Con) Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) Hoy, Craig (South Scotland) (Con) Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Halcro Johnston, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con) Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con) Lennon, Monica (Central Scotland) (Lab) Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con) Marra, Michael (North East Scotland) (Lab) McCall, Roz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow) (Lab) Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab) Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con) O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab) [Proxy vote cast by Michael Marra] Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Russell, Davy (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (Lab) Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab) Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab) Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con) White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con) Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab) Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con) Against Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP) Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire South) (SNP) Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP) Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green) Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP) Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green) Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD) Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Don-Innes, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP) Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) Ewing, Annabelle (Cowdenbeath) (SNP) Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP) FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) Forbes, Kate (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) Gilruth, Jenny (Mid Fife and Glenrothes) (SNP) Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP) Gray, Neil (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (LD) Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green) Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP) Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green) [Proxy vote cast by Patrick Harvie] Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP) Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP) Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (Ind) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP) McKee, Ivan (Glasgow Provan) (SNP) McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP) McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP) McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP) Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD) Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green) Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green) [Proxy vote cast by Maggie Chapman] Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP) Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP) [Proxy vote cast by Fulton MacGregor] Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP) Thomson, Michelle (Falkirk East) (SNP) Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP) Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP) Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD) Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP) The Presiding Officer: The result of the division is: For 47, Against 71, Abstentions 0.”
“It is also possible to find out “the rate of moorland habitat loss, broken down by region”. The cabinet secretary has talked about people doing a survey of peatlands. Surely, we can also survey “the land uses that are replacing moorland”— we do that in the agricultural census in most years—and “the consequences of moorlands being replaced with other land uses.” I believe that it is possible to do it. It may add another burden on the Government, which it may not want to agree to, but I do not see why the amendment is not specific enough or detailed enough to enable such a vital record to be kept. I press amendment 320. The Deputy Presiding Officer: The question is, that amendment 320 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No. The Deputy Presiding Officer: There will be a division.”
“The restoration and regeneration of Scotland’s ecosystems, including but not limited to moorland, is at the heart of the Scottish biodiversity strategy. However, as drafted, amendment 320 is not practicable: its terms are not well defined, and that sort of work should be considered in the round with other biodiversity and land use workstreams. It is also not helpful for moorlands to be considered in isolation from other ecosystems, and the requirements in the amendment are too prescriptive. I therefore encourage members not to support amendment 320. Edward Mountain: I thank the cabinet secretary for that. Amendment 320 is specific enough. It clearly refers to “what proportion of land in Scotland is moorland”. That is a straightforward question. A quick survey would find that out.”
“Research showed that 60,000km2 of moorland in Scotland were lost between 1990 and 2023, in comparison with just over 600km2 during the same period in England. It also highlighted that moorland is being replaced by grassland and woodland—particularly by woodland in Scotland—and that there is likely to be adduced pressure on moorland and habitat loss from the further expansion of more woodland in the future, and land reform. Critically, the report found that there is a lack of data and a limitation in the data on what is replacing moorland, which is what amendment 320 hopes to address. I move amendment 320. Mairi Gougeon: I will start by setting out that I appreciate the importance of moorlands.”
“Amendment 319 disagreed to. The Deputy Presiding Officer: Group 19 is on moorlands. Amendment 320, in the name of Rachael Hamilton, is the only amendment in the group. Edward Mountain will speak to and move the amendment. Edward Mountain: Ms Hamilton has asked me to move amendment 320 on her behalf. Amendment 320 would require the Scottish ministers to produce a report on moorlands, including what proportion of land in Scotland is moorland; the rate of moorland habitat loss, broken down by region; and the land uses that are replacing moorland. It is a consequence of the proposed changes in the bill. The amendment is drawn from a study that was produced by the Heather Trust, which found that, overall, heather moorland the size of Birmingham is lost every year in the United Kingdom.”
“For Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con) Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP) Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con) Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Choudhury, Foysol (Lothian) (Ind) Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab) Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con) Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Lab) Eagle, Tim (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Findlay, Russell (West Scotland) (Con) Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Gallacher, Meghan (Central Scotland) (Con) Golden, Maurice (North East Scotland) (Con) Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con) Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) Gulhane, Sandesh (Glasgow) (Con) Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Halcro Johnston, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con) Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con) Lennon, Monica (Central Scotland) (Lab) Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con) Marra, Michael (North East Scotland) (Lab) McCall, Roz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow) (Lab) Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab) Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con) O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab) [Proxy vote cast by Michael Marra] Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Russell, Davy (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (Lab) Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab) Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab) Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con) White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con) Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab) Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con) Against Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP) Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire South) (SNP) Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green) Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP) Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green) Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD) Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Don-Innes, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP) Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) Ewing, Annabelle (Cowdenbeath) (SNP) Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (Ind) Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP) FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) Forbes, Kate (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) Gilruth, Jenny (Mid Fife and Glenrothes) (SNP) Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP) Gray, Neil (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (LD) Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green) Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP) Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green) [Proxy vote cast by Patrick Harvie] Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP) Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP) Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (Ind) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP) McKee, Ivan (Glasgow Provan) (SNP) McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP) McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP) McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP) Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD) Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green) Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green) [Proxy vote cast by Maggie Chapman] Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP) Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP) [Proxy vote cast by Fulton MacGregor] Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP) Thomson, Michelle (Falkirk East) (SNP) Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP) Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP) Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD) Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The result of the division is: For 46, Against 71, Abstentions 0.”
“Amendment 318 disagreed to. Amendment 319 moved—[Douglas Lumsden]. The Deputy Presiding Officer: The question is, that amendment 319 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No. The Deputy Presiding Officer: There will be a division.”
“For Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con) Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con) Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Choudhury, Foysol (Lothian) (Ind) Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab) Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con) Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Lab) Eagle, Tim (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Findlay, Russell (West Scotland) (Con) Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Gallacher, Meghan (Central Scotland) (Con) Golden, Maurice (North East Scotland) (Con) Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con) Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) Gulhane, Sandesh (Glasgow) (Con) Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) Hoy, Craig (South Scotland) (Con) Halcro Johnston, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con) Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con) Lennon, Monica (Central Scotland) (Lab) Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con) Marra, Michael (North East Scotland) (Lab) McCall, Roz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow) (Lab) Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab) Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con) O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab) [Proxy vote cast by Michael Marra] Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Russell, Davy (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (Lab) Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab) Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con) White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con) Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab) Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con) Against Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP) Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire South) (SNP) Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP) Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green) Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP) Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green) Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD) Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Don-Innes, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP) Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) Ewing, Annabelle (Cowdenbeath) (SNP) Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP) FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) Forbes, Kate (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) Gilruth, Jenny (Mid Fife and Glenrothes) (SNP) Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP) Gray, Neil (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (LD) Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green) Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP) Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green) [Proxy vote cast by Patrick Harvie] Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP) Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP) Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (Ind) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP) McKee, Ivan (Glasgow Provan) (SNP) McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP) McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP) McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP) Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD) Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green) Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green) [Proxy vote cast by Maggie Chapman] Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP) Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP) [Proxy vote cast by Fulton MacGregor] Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP) Thomson, Michelle (Falkirk East) (SNP) Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP) Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab) Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP) Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD) Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP) Abstentions Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (Ind) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The result of the division is: For 44, Against 72, Abstentions 1.”
“The Deputy Presiding Officer: I call Mark Ruskell to wind up and to press or withdraw amendment 317. Mark Ruskell: I do not have anything to add. I look forward to the debate to come. I will not press the amendment. Amendment 317, by agreement, withdrawn. Amendment 318 moved—[Douglas Lumsden]. The Deputy Presiding Officer: The question is, that amendment 318 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No. The Deputy Presiding Officer: There will be a division.”
“As has been raised already tonight, the Minister for Agriculture and Connectivity confirmed in a letter to the convener of the Rural Affairs and Islands Committee last week that he will lodge an amendment at stage 2 of the Natural Environment (Scotland) Bill to address the uncertainty surrounding the interpretation of the licensing provision. That will ensure that the licensing scheme operates in the manner that I think that members intended when they voted to pass the Wildlife Management and Muirburn (Scotland) Act 2024. Lodging that amendment at stage 2 of the Natural Environment (Scotland) Bill will allow the amendment to be scrutinised and debated alongside other wildlife management legislation, so I recommend that members oppose amendment 317, although I appreciate that Mark Ruskell has said that he does not intend to press it.”
“I look forward to debating it during consideration of the Natural Environment (Scotland) Bill. Mairi Gougeon: As I set out at stage 2, I understand the concerns that Mark Ruskell has highlighted, and we engaged in discussion around that at the time. As Mark Ruskell also highlighted, NatureScot has implemented an additional condition on all grouse licences to try to resolve the concerns that amendment 317 seeks to address. However, the condition does not include the full list of relevant offences and relies on licensing conditions, as opposed to express provision in the primary legislation.”
“Tim Eagle: My point is not that there are not problems—there are wider problems in Scotland— but that NatureScot has confirmed that there is no raptor persecution linked to grouse moors, yet the Greens are trying to expand the licensing scheme in a way that is completely unnecessary. Official documents in respect of the Wildlife Management and Muirburn (Scotland) Act 2024 make clear that licences apply to land where grouse are actually taken or killed, not whole estates. That was not challenged during the bill’s passage. NatureScot already has powers to include licence conditions to address offences that happen outside licence areas, which provides flexibility without changing primary legislation. In my view, amendment 317 makes an assumption that is unfair and not based on evidence.”
“NatureScot has reported no raptor persecution linked to grouse moors that has required intervention, yet Mark Ruskell has just stood up and said that there is such persecution, so I do not know what to believe. Ministers have confirmed that no licences have been issued that cover only narrow strips of land, such as around grouse butts. Mark Ruskell: I simply point out to Tim Eagle that we have seen continued raptor persecution. Landowners who are law abiding have absolutely nothing to fear from a licensing scheme—nothing at all. However, I point out to Tim Eagle that we have already seen a peregrine and an osprey found shot in the Angus glens last autumn and a red kite in Strathdon earlier this year. Open your eyes, Mr Eagle, to what is actually happening. The Deputy Presiding Officer: Speak through the chair, Mr Ruskell.”
“With the greatest respect to Mark Ruskell, amendment 317 falls into the ideological trap of assuming the worst of landowners, who in so many cases are active parts of their community and want to follow the rules as laid out in the Wildlife Management and Muirburn (Scotland) Act 2024. Amendment 317 would widen the land area that is covered by section 16AA licences, which regulate red grouse shooting. It is worth noting that many recognise that grouse shooting provides important economic, cultural and environmental benefits in rural Scotland. There is absolutely no evidence to support claims that landowners are exploiting a loophole by licensing only small areas, as the member is asserting.”
“On the basis of that, and of what I hope will be an explicit commitment by the Government tonight to address the issues that amendment 317 raises and take that forward in stage 2 consideration of the Natural Environment (Scotland) Bill, I will not press amendment 317. However, I consider this to be a campaign and a mission in parts, and I look forward to these issues being brought back to the Rural Affairs and Islands Committee in a few weeks’ time. I move amendment 317. Tim Eagle: It is good to hear that Mark Ruskell will not press amendment 317, and I look forward to the debate on the Natural Environment (Scotland) Bill. However, it is not a “loophole”, and that is a really unfair comment.”
“I lodged a similar amendment at stage 2. I have reflected on the comments that were made then, as well as on the points that were raised by a range of stakeholders. I have made technical changes to the drafting to take account of those cases where a grouse moor is managed by a sporting agent and of the definition of “contiguous land”. I note that the minister has recently written to the Rural Affairs and Islands Committee to confirm that the Government’s intention is to fix that issue, not in the Land Reform (Scotland) Bill, but in the Natural Environment (Scotland) Bill, which we will be considering in just a few weeks’ time—lucky us.”
“That condition requires that, where a raptor persecution offence occurs away from the specified licensed grouse moor area, there needs to be evidence to link it to the management of the grouse moor for any consideration of a sanction to take place. The bodies that are experienced in the investigation of such offences agree that obtaining evidence of a link, even with a civil burden of proof, will be virtually impossible in most cases. The new condition also does not allow consideration of other “relevant offences”, such as those relating to badgers or animal welfare. Nevertheless, the fact that NatureScot sought to plug the loophole with a condition confirms the original intention of the Scottish Government to include the whole estate in the grouse shooting licence and to apply the full agreed list of offences.”