Willie Rennie
Scottish Liberal Democrats · Scotland
“Daniel Johnson’s remarks were powerful, and he identified an issue that is sometimes uncomfortable and that we need to address. The country faces difficult issues, and we do ourselves no favours by ignoring those issues. Some of the points that Daniel Johnson made about immigration were right, and we need to discuss them.”
“Again, Daniel Johnson highlighted that when he talked about comments on “fighting- age men”, “strangers” and “two-tier policing”. We know what those terms mean and what they are appealing to. Thomas Kerr: Will the member take an intervention? Willie Rennie: Yes, I will take an intervention from Mr Charmer himself.”
“I understand that a German company will now use the Dalzell plant as a jobbing mill, importing 4,000 tonnes of slab from a foreign supplier outside the UK instead of purchasing that slab from Scunthorpe. All that raises serious questions about an important part of the steel industry in Scotland.”
“It is important for the UK Government that there is learning from the process and that the circumstances of our Parliament—for example, when we re-form following an election—are not an afterthought in relation to the UK Government’s formulation of its approach to legislation and when it decides to introduce it.”
“So far, the Scottish Government has not been formally asked to provide support, but I advise the member and the chamber that the issue was part of my discussions with the UK Government minister yesterday. The legislation extends to Scotland, and the steel undertaking would capture the site.”
“Will that be repaid, and at what point? When will we have a proper functioning mill—the only wide-plate mill in the United Kingdom—at Dalzell? When will it have a constructive relationship with the Scunthorpe plant? All those issues should be at the front of the Government’s mind, but, as usual, it is not paying attention.”
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“On the one hand, those who were supposed to be in favour of the reform were lukewarm, pretty insipid and uncertain about what they wanted. That included the Funding Council, to which we are supposed to be transferring the responsibilities. On the other hand, we had people who were strongly against the bill. Boy, were they strongly against it—passionately so. Some of them had a spell over other people, but, nevertheless, they were passionate about it. That set me back a bit and, like John Mason, I had to ask significant questions. There are several questions for me. First, does the SFC have the headspace to take on the responsibilities?”
“That is why I was attracted to the Withers report. It was a good report that set out a compelling case for the need for change. It set out the need for a single source of funding, simplification, regional and national planning on skills and the sort of careers service that the minister’s predecessor was particularly passionate about. He thought that the key to all this was having a careers service through which young people get the right advice at the right stage to ensure that they go into the right job or training opportunity. After the report’s publication, the minister took a very cautious approach in trying to get those agencies to work together behind the scenes. So far, so good. However, the committee’s evidence sessions on the bill were an utter disaster.”
“We have quite incredible demands for skills from a variety of sectors that are desperate for good workers. The renewables sector, the defence sector—in which there will be significant growth—the housing construction sector and a range of others are desperate for skills. We hear regular complaints from those sectors on a variety of levels: that they are short of what they asked for, that there is a lack of transparency, that their management costs are very high and that many of them pay significant contributions to the apprenticeship levy but do not feel that they get their money back. We hear lots of complaints. That was epitomised in Audit Scotland’s report, which was very critical of the Government and the two agencies, the SFC and SDS. The report criticised them all for a lack of leadership, strategy and co-ordination on skills.”
“For example, I recognise the strong demand for the expansion of graduate apprenticeships, and the need to make the development process faster and simpler. The Government will therefore work at pace to implement changes to how frameworks are developed, from assessing demand to shaping content. That work will start imminently, in close collaboration with universities and employers. The bill will ensure that the streamlined process is effectively overseen by the SFC, which will be tasked with leading it. That is a good example of how and why structural changes must be considered as part of the reform of the skills agenda.”
“However, it is clear across the business community that we need to make changes, and I want to work collaboratively with it in the weeks and months ahead. I will meet Liz Cameron again shortly. As I say, there is general agreement on why we need to change. The considerations about how to do so is where there are differing opinions. I respect those differing opinions, and I have appreciated listening to the reflections on the issue in recent days. I also look forward to hearing from MSP colleagues today. I want to make it clear at the beginning, as I take up my tenure in this role, that I will not wait to pass and implement the bill before seeking to take initiatives to drive forward the skills agenda, because we do not have the time to allow us the luxury of standing still.”
“I welcome Ben Macpherson to his new role. When he met Dr Liz Cameron from the Scottish Chambers of Commerce, did she express her strong opposition to the bill in the way that she expressed it to me? What did the minister say to her in response, and did he convince her? Ben Macpherson: My engagement with the Chambers of Commerce and with Dr Liz Cameron has been extensive over my years as an MSP, and I respect her and the organisation very much. It was great to meet her at such an early juncture. I am keen to listen to the business community’s thoughts, reflections and ideas, not just on the bill but on the skills landscape. I note that the Federation of Small Businesses has come out in support of the bill, so there are different approaches to the legislation among the business community.”
“In addition, we have introduced a commitment to make decisions on consents within 11 months. Biodiversity Strategy (Riparian Woodland Planting) 5.”
“The Scottish Government does have power in relation to consent for offshore renewables projects. It took quite a long time for the Berwick Bank consent process to be concluded, and there were previous concerns about the number of professionals and planners in the marine directorate. Has that shortage of personnel now been resolved, and will we have a swifter consenting process from now on? Gillian Martin: As a result of feedback from the sector, we have doubled the capacity of the energy consents unit, and we have done so during a cessation of recruitment in the Scottish Government because of pressures on spending. We also now have apprenticeships associated with the ECU, so we hope to have a pipeline of even more qualified personnel coming into the Scottish Government.”
“Amendment 197A would turn the power in amendment 197 into a duty—again, removing the Parliament’s role, which the Government could not support. Amendments 7 and 25 have been debated today. They seek to reintroduce the winter evictions ban that would apply every year from November until April, except in limited circumstances. The same amendments were lodged at stage 2 and were not agreed to. For the same reasons that we set out then, I cannot support them today.”
“The repossession grounds review that will be conducted provides a mechanism for such detailed work. Amendment 197 and consequential amendment 265 would give regulation-making powers to ministers relating to protection against eviction within the first 12 months of a tenancy. Again, those are inflexible provisions. As I have said previously, such issues are best considered as part of our review of repossession grounds, which will allow a fulsome and proper assessment to be made of how the current system is operating and how it might operate better. I know that the question of eviction grounds is a concern for many members; I can confirm to the Parliament that that review will begin before the end of this year, and I would welcome members’ involvement in it.”
“Amendment 198 seeks to address concerns by providing ministers with regulation-making powers to change the notice period that a landlord must give to a tenant when ending a tenancy, such that the notice period would be 16 weeks in certain circumstances. It would also require that notice period to be applied to evictions in cases in which the ground for eviction relates to the sale of property. Connected to that, amendment 198A would turn that power to make regulations into a duty to make regulations. The provision to convert the power to a duty is defective, because it would fetter the Parliament’s role and remit. On the substance of amendment 198, further work is required to understand the implications of increased notice periods before changes are made.”
“I am also unable to support Mr Mountain’s amendments 394 to 397, which would place a requirement on the courts and the First-tier Tribunal whereby, in cases in which antisocial behaviour grounds have been satisfied, an eviction order must be made no later than two months from the date of application. I listened to what Mr Mountain said about amendments 394 to 397, but I cannot support them, for a number of reasons. The principal reason is that the bill already contains an exemption from the duty to consider delaying an eviction on antisocial behaviour grounds. That means that it is a matter for the court or the tribunal to issue an eviction order as it deems fit. Nothing in the bill should hinder the judicial process in that regard. I will not speak to Maggie Chapman’s amendment 8, as she indicated that she would not move it.”
“Edward Mountain’s amendments 192 to 196 would prevent the First-tier Tribunal and the courts from ordering a delay to an eviction of more than four months. I do not think that it is appropriate to restrict the discretion of the courts in that way. They need to be able to make orders that they deem reasonable, taking account of all the circumstances that they have before them. In addition, by linking the start of the period to the day after proceedings are raised by the landlord, we could risk there being no delay at all or minimal delay in some cases, which would undermine the purpose of the measures in the bill. Therefore, I cannot support amendments 192 to 196.”
“The practical effect of the existing provision is that manses are lying empty. I know of manses that have lain empty as a result of that provision. Whatever the law is, the practical effect of it is that we have empty homes that could be used. Can the cabinet secretary not find a way to resolve that problem? Màiri McAllan: I will certainly continue my engagement with the Church of Scotland. I take Willie Rennie’s point; I do not want any houses— manses or otherwise—to lie empty. However, it has already been legislated for in primary legislation that such circumstances can be taken into account. I do not think that such circumstances merit the creation of a stand-alone exemption for the Church of Scotland, not least because the proposed exemption would not include other religious bodies. However, I will stay engaged on those issues.”
“What is the cash difference between Liz Smith’s costings and those of the minister? If the gap can be closed, will the Government support the bill? Natalie Don-Innes: I do not know whether I can give a specific answer. As I have laid out clearly to the Parliament, we have Liz Smith’s revised costs as well as the costs that the Government has put forward, but there are also a bunch of unknown costs, as I have discussed at length with Mr Rennie. That includes the cost of the workforce and of equity of provision, alongside issues of transport, centre capacity and potential upgrades. A host of work needs to be undertaken in order to consider some of those issues prior to stage 2. Members have been asking me about the bill’s affordability, but we need to understand the unknown costs before we can get to that stage.”
“I therefore urge members to support my amendments, which are absolutely essential to removing a flawed stage 2 amendment from the bill. The Deputy Presiding Officer: The question is, that amendment 123 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No. The Deputy Presiding Officer: There will be a division. There will be a five-minute suspension to allow members to log into the digital voting system. 15:35 Meeting suspended. 15:41 On resuming— The Deputy Presiding Officer: We move to the vote on amendment 123, in the name of the cabinet secretary. Members should cast their votes now. The vote is closed.”
“I am pleased to hear that members across the chamber will support Pam Duncan-Glancy’s amendments, which represent a big step forward in facilitating opportunities to end tenancies in certain circumstances. Edward Mountain asked me to comment on his amendment 221. I am afraid that extending or increasing the maximum deposit could make it more difficult for those who are seeking to satisfy a landlord’s deposit requirements, despite the fact that his intention is to make it easier. In respect of Ross Greer’s comments, I have spoken to the fact that expert-led work is well advanced and I do not require the rigidity of primary legislation to make this work. I invite Ross Greer and other members to work with me on it.”
“Fundamentally, we have seen the adverse effect that rent controls can have on the supply of housing across the wider sector, not just that for students. I am not in favour of a rent control regime for purpose-built student accommodation, because of the side effects that I have set out. We will support the Government’s amendments and Pam Duncan-Glancy’s amendments 105 and 116, but we are not in favour of the other amendments in the group. The Deputy Presiding Officer: I call the cabinet secretary to wind up. Màiri McAllan: In the interest of time, I will be brief. I associate myself with Willie Rennie’s contribution, particularly in relation to the balance that he is seeking to strike between investment and actions to support tenants and address affordability. I agree with him entirely on that.”
“Ross Greer: As I have acknowledged, it is clear that Graham Simpson’s stage 2 amendment will be undone, by majority, today. However, given what Mr Rennie has said, how do the Liberal Democrats believe that we can address affordability in the PBSA sector? Does he believe, as the cabinet secretary seems to believe, that we can do that on a voluntary basis, despite the fact that we have been taking that approach up until now, which has led us to this point of unaffordability? Willie Rennie: I do not think that the voluntary scheme has been scrutinised effectively. Graham Simpson’s amendment has brought greater Government focus on trying to get the sector into a better position. However, we must increase supply in order to deal with the price of accommodation.”
“Throughout discussion on the bill, I have been clear that we can have the best standards in the world but, if we do not have people to build the houses, we will not have houses for people to live in. We can cast our minds back a couple of years, when there was a crisis in student accommodation. People at the University of St Andrews were living in Dundee, and people at the University of Glasgow were unable to get a home near that institution. We cannot afford to go back to that position, but we cannot do this by ourselves. We must have the support of the private sector, as well as the state providers of accommodation, if we are to deal with the housing emergency. That is why I am in favour of having a regime that builds confidence among investors and that sets good standards for tenants, whether they are students or private tenants.”
“Trust in the Government on housing was slowly being restored after quite a few rocky years, but lack of clarity in the direction of travel of not only the Government but the Parliament knocked the confidence of the PBSA sector and the wider housing sector. Having clarity from, and trust in, the Government is essential if people who are planning to invest are to follow through on investment decisions. Overnight, investors decided to put projects on hold as a result of one vote in the committee that day. Therefore, I am pleased that we have clarity that purpose-built student accommodation should not be subject to rent controls, because that sector is very different. It is institutionally managed, and the accommodation is purpose built, with wraparound services and enhanced safety and security.”
“I want to discuss drawing purpose-built student accommodation into the rent control measures. I attended the Local Government, Housing and Planning Committee when that issue was being discussed. It was an important example of clear communications from Government ministers being essential in giving the committee confidence and avoiding frustration that leads to decisions that have a knock-on effect on not only the purpose- built student accommodation sector but the wider housing sector. I am glad that the cabinet secretary has given absolute clarity, as her predecessor did, on the Government’s policy on purpose-built student accommodation.”
“To ask the Scottish Government what its response is to the recommendation made by the commission on school reform report, “Behaviour in Schools”, that teachers should be able to suspend or exclude pupils who exhibit persistent behaviour issues. (S6T-02680)”
“I offer a reassurance, which perhaps goes to the concerns that Richard Leonard has articulated, that, whatever process is followed and whatever the direction of travel is, trade unions, staff and students will also be able to input to that process, because I absolutely recognise that we need to move to a more sustainable long-term model for our institutions. Additional Support for Learning (Rural Schools) 4.”
“The signs of stress in the higher education system are clear, as Richard Leonard has set out. Does the minister accept that the current financial model for higher education is broken? Will he set out what discussions he has had with Universities Scotland and others about a potential new financial model? Graeme Dey: As Willie Rennie is aware, there have been on-going discussions with the sector about that very point: looking to a more sustainable long-term financial model. In fact, I hope that we will be able to make a joint announcement in the next few weeks that will outline the detail of that.”
“On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I forgot to cast Beatrice Wishart’s proxy vote. She would have voted yes. The Presiding Officer: Thank you, Mr Rennie. We will ensure that that is recorded.”
“Scotland cannot legislate in isolation in favour of domestic bidders at the expense of bidders from other countries with which a relevant international trade agreement applies. We need to be conscious of that and make representations to the UK Government if we think that changes need to be made.”
“The scheme is good news, but does the Deputy First Minister agree with Michael Matheson that it is essential to reform the Subsidy Control Act 2022 to secure the long-term future of Alexander Dennis? Kate Forbes: Willie Rennie will have heard in my answer to Michael Matheson that reform was one of the company’s asks. I have set out in some technical detail where we stand on that. The other issue is procurement law. Although it is a devolved matter, it is still subject to UK-wide and international obligations, which are reserved. In order to amend procurement law to enable preferential treatment, for example for domestic manufacturers, the UK is required to make changes to its international trade obligations.”
“The Deputy Presiding Officer: That concludes portfolio questions on Justice and Home Affairs. There will be a short pause to allow ministers to change seats. Alexander Dennis Ltd”
“I want the minister to know that, even in relatively peaceful North East Fife, antisocial behaviour affects almost every community. I want the minister to take that back to her budget discussions about resources for councils, housing associations and the police, because people are at their wits’ end with some of the behaviour. Siobhian Brown: I will take those comments on board during my discussions. However, I am also aware of some very good practice in Mid Scotland and Fife, such as increased patrols in Stirling city centre and good practice in responding to antisocial behaviour involving retailers in Stirling, which was highlighted by the independent working group on antisocial behaviour. I have visited that social enterprise in Stirling and it does incredible work. We can take guidance from there on how we tackle antisocial behaviour.”
“Mr Dey and I of course frequently discuss issues with regard to training the next generation of our public sector workers, ensuring that the continued viability of our university sector is, as the member would expect, very high up on the Government’s agenda. The Presiding Officer: That concludes topical questions. Business Motion 14:23”
“The financial problems in universities are contributing to the loss of important teaching staff, which means that the viability and credibility of departments is under threat. That will store up problems for many years to come unless we can get things right. What discussions has the cabinet secretary had with his colleague Mr Dey, who is sitting next to him, about the future viability of universities, so that nursing departments are viable for the future? Neil Gray: With relevance to the point that is before us, I point back to the answer that I gave to Carol Mochan on the importance of international students and international workers, not just to our NHS and social care services but to our universities. That is a critical point.”
“To ask the Scottish Government whether it will provide an update on its discussions with the University of Dundee and the Scottish Funding Council regarding the university’s financial situation. (S6O- 04921)”
“The Government cannot do that on its own. It needs partnership with farmers and landowners, both on islands and across the country, but that simply is not happening. We should be using best practice and natural water management measures. However, there has been no proper discussion and no roll-out of best practice. When will that happen? Jim Fairlie: I hear Willie Rennie’s points. We have had these conversations before. I am alive to the fact that we need those landscape-scale interventions if we are to ensure that we develop proper flood strategies. I am absolutely committed to looking at that.”
“On a point of order, Presiding Officer. Beatrice Wishart’s proxy vote was not recognised. She would have voted yes. The Presiding Officer: Thank you, Mr Rennie. I will ensure that that has been recorded.”
“The Edinburgh to Glasgow improvement programme has delivered not only modern electric trains but the impressive transformation of Haymarket and Glasgow Queen Street stations on that flagship route.”
“Our consistent policy of maintaining a rolling programme of electrification has delivered 574km of electrified track, which has enabled greener and more efficient journeys. Over the past 20 years, first the Scottish Executive and now the Scottish Government have funded the construction of 25 new stations and reopened four previously disused lines in order to reconnect communities across Scotland. Those projects improve not just infrastructure but people’s lives. Going back 20 years, I recognise that previous Administrations initiated a number of valued improvements to our railway that we inherited in 2007 and successfully delivered. The line between Airdrie and Bathgate and the one between Stirling, Dunblane and Alloa have connected communities across the central belt.”
“While the cabinet secretary is talking about improvements, will she give an update on when she plans to give some positive news about the new rail development and railway station at Newburgh? She had a very good visit to Newburgh some months ago, and she was supposed to be receiving advice towards the end of May. We are very keen to hear positive news about the next steps. Fiona Hyslop: I did, indeed, have a very good visit to Newburgh, where I heard the passion of the community. I have made it clear to my officials that I would like their advice as soon as possible. I understand that the work, which has been supported by Government funding to get it to this stage, is on-going, but I expect to receive the advice fairly soon. Since 2007, the Government has invested more than £12 billion in rail infrastructure.”
“I will take away the point that the member raises today, but, in the national guidance, we have been very clear that I—and, certainly, the Government— support a mobile phone ban.”
“Mr Rennie asked when we will measure the impact of the guidance. It is a three-year plan, so he can expect another update from the Government next year in relation to the progress that we have made. With regard to mobile phones, I think that I responded to Mr Stewart on that, and we have previously talked about this issue at length in the chamber. At the current time, the legislative power does not rest with ministers—it is a matter for local authorities. I have been clear that we trust our headteachers to take decisions about mobile phones. However, I accept Mr Rennie’s point about their absence improving educational outcomes in our classrooms. Every headteacher whom I have spoken to who has imposed a ban has seen a direct correlation between the ban and an improvement in learning and teaching.”
“There are a number of different prompts at the back of the guidance—it is not an exhaustive list, but the examples have come directly from teachers themselves. My expectation, from engaging with the Association of Directors of Education in Scotland, is that the behaviour guidance will be used, for example, to inform in-service training days; I know that a number of schools were doing that at the start of term on returning from the summer holidays a couple of weeks ago. It is important that the national guidance informs different approaches in our schools. The issue was raised with me earlier this year by Mike Corbett from NASUWT Scotland, and as a result— as Mr Rennie will know—Tony Buchanan and I wrote directly to all directors to encourage schools to update their guidance accordingly. It will take time, and I accept that.”
“The guidance on behaviour is incredibly long, and the section on consequences is stuck at the back, in an appendix, so I am sceptical about what impact it will have on actual classroom practice. I am keen to hear from the cabinet secretary when she will measure the impact of the guidance, and when the next survey will be conducted. Secondly, is the cabinet secretary prepared to move on mobile phones? I receive numerous reports of different practices in different schools, even though the evidence is now pretty compelling on the improvement in behaviour if mobile phones are removed not just from the classroom, but from the school. Jenny Gilruth: I appreciate that the guidance is long and there are appendices—I think that that is welcome, and my hope is that the consequences element is not lost.”
“We should shout from the rooftops about companies such as the one that Willie Rennie mentioned in order to send a signal to those with high energy use that are looking to change their fuel. For example, the whisky industry is one of the first movers in that area. We should signal that there is an opportunity to buy hydrogen from developers such as the one that Willie Rennie mentioned and from many more across Scotland and that they can only grow. Borders Railway (Extension) 5.”
“I recently visited the Binn ecopark at Glenfarg, which neighbours my constituency and has a really interesting hydrogen project coming on stream. Green Cat Hydrogen is particularly anxious about incentives for the demand side. Although those are in the action plan, the company is nervous that the emphasis on that is not sufficient. What can the minister say to reassure Green Cat Hydrogen and other companies that are interested in becoming involved in the sector? Gillian Martin: I would say that there is a really large potential market for green hydrogen in Scotland, on top of the export plans that I mentioned. We must first decarbonise our own industry, and there are many opportunities for companies with high energy use to diversify into using hydrogen.”
“I have seen such developments being successful in my constituency, but it required every party to be round the table to make that possible. Mr Rennie highlights, as did Mr Rowley, the significant impact on this year’s agricultural harvest. Malting barley is not at the strength that we would want to see and some vegetable crops have not flourished to the extent that we would want them to, because of the absence of both rainfall and the ability to abstract water. I will take away from today’s First Minister’s questions the importance of river management catchment areas and will ask ministers to engage with Mr Rennie and other interested members on how that can be taken forward at local level. The Presiding Officer: We move to general and constituency supplementaries. Methanol Poisoning (Awareness)”
“I have spoken before about water in the River Eden catchment and about the dramatic impact of flooding on the people of Cupar. There is now an impact on farmers, with broccoli, potatoes and even cereal crops being dramatically affected. I have argued before for a river catchment plan for the Eden, because we must get everyone together to deal with the extremes of climate change. Will the First Minister agree to such a catchment plan? The First Minister: That is required not only for the River Eden; the current environment tells us that we need such river management plans in place across the board, and Mr Rennie is absolutely right to say that that can happen only if everybody is round the table to make it happen.”
“I will not go into specific cases, but there can be a number of reasons why the school setting might not be the appropriate place for a child at a certain point in their life. The Scottish Government is taking a number of measures, some of which I have already alluded to, and there is the virtual school network, which involves looking at a child’s specific needs, how to build an education around them, and transitioning them back to a school setting. The Scottish Government is taking a number of measures to tackle the issue and to ensure that care-experienced children and young people get the education that they need. Damp and Mould in Homes 4.”
“The minister will know about reports of 15-minute timetables for care-experienced children. That means that they attend school for just 15 minutes in a day, without any other support when they leave the school grounds. In my view, that is exclusion by another name, and it should be stopped, as was stated in the Promise. What investigation has the minister done into the 15- minute timetables? Natalie Don-Innes: Mr Rennie refers to exclusion. As I have spoken about previously in the chamber and at committee, our national policy on exclusion has a strong focus on approaches that can be used to prevent the need for exclusion. Exclusion should be the last resort and, when it is used, it should be a proportionate response where there is no appropriate alternative. Mr Rennie also refers to 15-minute timetables.”
“My colleague the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care is working with the economy portfolio, Public Health Scotland and others to ensure that those services are joined up and are focused on returning people to work as effectively and efficiently as possible. Ethical Divestment (Support for Public Bodies) 2.”
“Mental health issues, attention deficit hyperactivity disorder and autism contribute to a significant proportion of cases among the 20-odd per cent of the working-age population who are economically inactive, but the national health service does not seem to have an effective pathway for ADHD and autism, and the waits for mental health services are incredibly long. What discussions is the minister having with the health department to ensure that we can get the system ready in order that we can get those people back to work so that they can make an economic contribution to the country? Ivan McKee: As I indicated, a range of activities are happening.”