Willie Rennie
Scottish Liberal Democrats · Scotland
“Daniel Johnson’s remarks were powerful, and he identified an issue that is sometimes uncomfortable and that we need to address. The country faces difficult issues, and we do ourselves no favours by ignoring those issues. Some of the points that Daniel Johnson made about immigration were right, and we need to discuss them.”
“Again, Daniel Johnson highlighted that when he talked about comments on “fighting- age men”, “strangers” and “two-tier policing”. We know what those terms mean and what they are appealing to. Thomas Kerr: Will the member take an intervention? Willie Rennie: Yes, I will take an intervention from Mr Charmer himself.”
“I understand that a German company will now use the Dalzell plant as a jobbing mill, importing 4,000 tonnes of slab from a foreign supplier outside the UK instead of purchasing that slab from Scunthorpe. All that raises serious questions about an important part of the steel industry in Scotland.”
“It is important for the UK Government that there is learning from the process and that the circumstances of our Parliament—for example, when we re-form following an election—are not an afterthought in relation to the UK Government’s formulation of its approach to legislation and when it decides to introduce it.”
“So far, the Scottish Government has not been formally asked to provide support, but I advise the member and the chamber that the issue was part of my discussions with the UK Government minister yesterday. The legislation extends to Scotland, and the steel undertaking would capture the site.”
“Will that be repaid, and at what point? When will we have a proper functioning mill—the only wide-plate mill in the United Kingdom—at Dalzell? When will it have a constructive relationship with the Scunthorpe plant? All those issues should be at the front of the Government’s mind, but, as usual, it is not paying attention.”
The complete record
Every one of 861 lines we hold for Willie Rennie, in date order, each linked to its source. Free to read, in full, without an account. Page 7 of 18.
“First, the outdoor learning strategy, with a 27-page vision, was published in 2010, yet almost nothing was done for 14 years until Liz Smith introduced her bill. Then, just by chance, we created a working group. That is the solution for everything—create a working group. I am sure that the minister will dispute the notion that nothing happened in that time. Natalie Don-Innes: Will the member take an intervention? Willie Rennie: On cue, minister. Natalie Don-Innes: We spoke at length at committee about the number of fantastic outdoor educational opportunities—fair enough; they are not all residential—that many of our school pupils get to experience on a daily basis. Would the member recognise that? The Deputy Presiding Officer: I can give you the time back for that intervention, Mr Rennie.”
“In the initial stages, I signed the bill to allow it to proceed. I supported the principle of it. However, during our scrutiny of the bill at committee, I was concerned about costs. As Paul O’Kane has highlighted, school leaders across the country are concerned about the costs, too, and they brought that to our attention. I will return to that issue later. There is also the matter of additional support needs, which Pam Duncan-Glancy correctly highlighted, as well as the question whether teachers are to be compelled to attend such sessions, whereas previously the arrangements have been voluntary. My support for the bill has been challenged, but I was persuaded of its merits for a number of reasons.”
“I thank Ross Greer for reminding me how old I am. He was in primary 7 in 2006, which was just yesterday for me. I also thank all the staff in the Parliament, from those in the non-Government bills unit to the legislation team, the clerks and other officials. I thank Liz Smith for her tenacious and never-say- die approach to the legislation process and the way in which she is meticulous with every single point. She is fierce. That brings me to the minister. I pay tribute to her for facing Liz Smith and still being alive at the end of the process. She deserves credit for reaching agreement with Liz Smith, despite the complications of the bill. I, too, will miss Liz Smith in the Parliament. She brings a degree of seriousness, a considered approach and an intellectual rigour that the Parliament will miss. My view of the bill has fluctuated.”
“However, that is probably a risk that has been taken. That makes it all the more important that we secure future opportunities for the site to encourage them to come back home.”
“The college is trying to monitor them as they leave the training, and it was able to tell me that, of those who respond to its final destination surveys, more than 80 have come back and told the college where they have found employment, which is great. In relation to the workforce that has been made redundant by Petroineos, one of the difficulties is that it holds the data on who those people are and it has not released that to the Scottish Government. Helpfully, however, we have links with the unions that are involved on the site and we are getting feedback from them. Quite a lot of the workers have not accessed skills opportunities because they have found employment elsewhere. Regrettably, I do not have details on this—Petroineos might have them—but I hope that not as many workers as I fear have had to go abroad for employment.”
“I declare an interest, as my wife works for Celtic Renewables, so she will be very pleased this evening, although she has kept the news very secret over the past few days. I want to explore the issue of guaranteed job interviews for those who have lost their jobs at Ineos. Are we tracking those who are going to lose, or have already lost, their jobs? Do we know where they are ending up? What is the prospect of them returning to the site in Grangemouth? Gillian Martin: There are a number of things in that question, and I want to give members some of the detail. Those workers have access to skills opportunities at Forth Valley College.”
“We need to align all our services and focus on the one in four or one in five people who are economically inactive. We must provide the required services—not just in relation to the skills, housing and other things that are referred to in the Labour amendment, but in relation to the NHS. We must ensure that we are focused on getting them back to work for their own sake, for the sake of our taxes and for the sake of the economy. 15:13”
“When he was at school, he received support for his attention deficit hyperactivity disorder. When he left school, he went off the rails. He has been lost to the economy for four years now, because there is no adult neurodivergent service in Fife. That situation is replicated across the country. What is the national health service doing? Does it not understand that it is important that it orientates its services to help the economy? If we do not get those people back to work, we will not be able to raise the taxes to pay for the vital NHS services that we rely on. We must have a rounded system. Stephen Kerr: Will Willie Rennie give way? Willie Rennie: I have only 30 seconds left. I know that the Deputy First Minister has been leading some work on that, but the situation is urgent.”
“Unlike in the 1980s and 1990s, when those who were economically inactive were primarily men who had worked in industrial complexes and whose bodies were battered and bruised, we are now talking about younger people who are neurodivergent or who have mental health issues. We cannot afford for them to be economically inactive for the rest of their lives. In the 1980s and 1990s, those men lost perhaps about 20 years’ worth of economic activity. If we do not support into work the people who I have just mentioned, they will be lost to work for the rest of their lives, which will be bad for them and for our economy. We need to deal with that. The most depressing thing about the debate is the silo mentality that surrounds it. We must have rounded services that help those people. I have an example of a young person in my constituency in his 20s.”
“That is not an appropriate way to manage a welfare system. However, we can agree that the current system is unsustainable and that, when we reach it, the forecasted £2 billion gap will test us quite considerably. It is also true that the levels of economic inactivity—said to be one in four or one in five; the figures fluctuate—are too high. That means not only that there is a significant burden on the social security system but that we are losing valuable taxpayers to our economy. On both fronts, the system is not sustainable. I think that we can all accept that we face an enormous challenge, but I am more concerned about the impact on individuals, because the level of economic inactivity in Scotland is far too high.”
“I want a caring system that respects people when they are in need. That is why the Liberal Democrats supported the Social Security (Scotland) Act 2018, and why we believe in the fairness, dignity and respect approach. We believed that, when we were creating a new welfare state, we needed to come together to create those new central powers for it. One of my constituents told me that, unlike under the previous Department for Work and Pensions system, she was believed—and her face showed the relief of being believed. She was right to think that she deserved that respect, and that is why I was pleased that that approach had filtered through into the Scottish system. It is also why I am pleased that the two-child limit has gone, because, in effect, it was punishing the children rather than the adults.”
“To ask the Scottish Government what discussions the economy secretary has had with ministerial colleagues regarding support for the workforce and local economy of Mossmorran, in light of ExxonMobil’s announcement that the Fife ethylene plant will be closed. (S6O-05266)”
“The overall image is of a Government that we have transformed from cavalier—it was smashing champagne bottles and painting windows on the sides of boats—to one that is too scared to even come out from under its shell. We need a proper Government that has proper plans for the future to give those workers a chance. The Deputy Presiding Officer: We move to the open debate. 15:45”
“We know that we need a pipeline of work to give confidence to all those people that there will be work for the future—and there is a host of work. We are surrounded by seas, which are bustling with potential activity in relation to offshore wind, the remainder of the oil and gas sector and the Border Force. There is also BAE Systems just up the road, which is providing investment as a result of the UK Government investment in defence work. A host of work is out there. What is the point of the Scottish Government owning a yard if it will not give it a future? At least plan for the future. Give the workers a chance to get some of that work, so that the yard can have a future.”
“Of course, there are the islanders who cannot even get a ferry on time to go to work, get a hospital appointment or visit friends and family. All of that was on the SNP’s watch. The SNP needs to accept responsibility— Edward Mountain is right that no one has accepted responsibility enough to resign. We have been through numerous ministers, and they all run for the hills as soon as they can, but they are ultimately responsible, and somebody should pay the price, even if it is Kate Forbes. Shipbuilding has its challenges, and it is difficult. I understand that it requires co-ordination and investment and that a drumbeat of work is needed to maintain the skills and good management, and to have security of investment and maintenance in the yard. We know that that is how it works.”
“Well, the fact is that it is everything to do with the SNP, because it was the SNP that brought in its favourite businessperson to run and own the yard. When that failed, the SNP took over the yard, and that failed, with work that was over budget and over time, with painted-on windows and numerous other failures such as chains that were not long enough. There were all sorts of difficulties and problems, all because of the SNP and the decisions that it took in politicising the process. Who was it that suffered? The workers. They have a tremendous reputation for doing a good job, but they were led by very poor management, appointed by the SNP. Taxpayers are hundreds of millions of pounds out of pocket when people are struggling to put the lights on and keep their homes warm, and we are told that it is nothing to do with the SNP.”
“I like Kate Forbes—I hope that my saying that does not damage the rest of her time in Parliament. When she was appointed Deputy First Minister, she was given a number of challenges—we could call them poisoned chalices—and Ferguson Marine was certainly one of them. Today, she tried her best. She tried to make a virtue of admitting the failings in 2023-24, although not all the other failings in 2014, 2015 and 2016, and she tried to make a virtue of admitting that there were board and management failures. How many times do we have to listen to ministers telling us that it is nothing to do with them? They were the ones who appointed the board and brought in all those numerous directors to run the yard but, somehow, it is nothing to do with them.”
“I accept the challenge from Mr Rennie on the need for intensification, however, and that is exactly what the chief inspector will be taking forward.”
“I accept the challenge, however, in relation to intensifying progress, which is exactly why— Willie Rennie: It is your promise. Jenny Gilruth: I can hear the member heckling from a sedentary position, but I have spoken to the issues that we are taking forward with the chief inspector, who will be leading on intensifying the progress that we have seen. We are also mindful of our primary 1 pupils in considering how we can intensify that work—I spoke to Ms McCall about that earlier. Let us look at the figures from today. The poverty-related attainment gap in literacy for primary pupils reduced in 2024-25 to its lowest- ever level. Our exam results this year show progress, with a narrowing attainment gap across the board, so the interventions that we are putting in place are making a difference.”
“Ten years ago, the then First Minister promised that, by now, the poverty-related attainment gap would be closed. That was Nicola Sturgeon’s defining mission, but Nicola Sturgeon cannot even be bothered to turn up today to see thousands of young people’s futures being betrayed by the Government. In numeracy in primary school, it will take 133 years for that gap to close at this rate of progress. Without hiding behind staff and pupils, will the cabinet secretary say when exactly she was planning to apologise to those thousands of young people? Jenny Gilruth: I find it remarkable that Mr Rennie is not able to welcome some of the progress that we have seen today across the board at every level. This is about celebrating our children’s and young people’s achievements.”
“I thank the clerks and the witnesses who gave evidence to the committee, as well as my fellow committee members. I can honestly say that there was universal delight in the result of The Herald politician of the year awards, when our convener managed to climb the heady heights of achieving the committee convener of the year award. It was universal—even George Adam was delighted with our convener’s achievement. It brought the committee together in a way that I have never seen before.”
“I am happy to look at it and see what progress can be made in the period ahead.”
“If we can introduce that for what is, sadly, a relatively large group of people who can be specifically identified, why can we not do that for a slightly larger group of young people? Ben Macpherson: I appreciate the points about the unique learner number that have been made by the member, by the convener in his speech and in the committee’s report. As other ministers have emphasised, it is not a simple issue and consideration needs to be given to the fact that it goes beyond widening access to higher education and involves different organisations. However, I am happy to give an undertaking to look at the issue from a fresh perspective, as a new minister. The complexities should not be a barrier if there is merit in trying to advance the idea, which the committee has emphasised.”
“As the member knows, one of the key interventions that the Government has made in recent years on reducing poverty is the Scottish child payment—an intervention that has had a significant impact across nearly all of Scotland on the cost of living and, therefore, on the poverty- related attainment gap in both an indirect and, in certain circumstances, a direct way. The measures that we agreed at committee yesterday will help with data sharing across different organisations so that we have a better understanding, beyond SIMD, of where people need further assistance. Martin Whitfield: Does that not relate to the convener’s question about the unique learner number?”
“The minister is right to point out some of the progress—there is no doubt that there has been some—but we are here to try to make things better. He is four minutes into his eight-minute speech. I want to understand why he thinks that progress has stalled and whether he thinks that the flatlining on closing the poverty-related attainment gap in schools has contributed to that flatlining at universities. Ben Macpherson: I appreciate the member probing me on those points. One key bit of progress was shown yesterday in the action that is being taken in the Tertiary Education and Training (Funding and Governance) (Scotland) Bill to ensure that we have better data sharing.”
“If Willie Rennie wants to engage with me and the Government more widely on those points, I will be happy to try to assist him constructively, including as part of collaborative engagement with local skills or training providers, such as colleges or other entities. The Deputy Presiding Officer: Question 7 has not been lodged. English for Speakers of Other Languages (Protests against Adult Classes in Schools) 8.”
“In the north-east of Fife, we have significant problems with recruiting crew for the local boats. The local schools used to provide courses for young people to access the industry, but they seem to have dried up. Will the minister look again at the provision in every community across Scotland, including in the north-east of Fife? Ben Macpherson: I thank the member for raising those important points. His question builds on some of the discussion that we had at stage 2 of the Tertiary Education and Training (Funding and Governance) (Scotland) Bill about niche provision that we must ensure is in place, if we are to meet the goal of retaining skills that have been important in important industries in certain areas, including in the north-east of Fife and the north- east of Scotland.”
“As well as Mr Rennie and other members in the chamber telling me about it, I go out and engage directly with providers and hear their concerns face to face, so I am very aware of the issue. Mr Rennie will be aware that the key recommendation of the rates review was to improve the cost data that is available to inform rate setting, and the Diffley Partnership was appointed to lead a national cost data-collection exercise. Those cost surveys were open for providers to complete earlier this year. The surveys reflected the input of providers, and lessons were learned from the previous cost data- collection exercises that have been carried out. I will be presented with that data soon, and then I will consider next steps.”
“I want to return to the difference in paid rates for private, voluntary and independent nurseries and those for council nurseries. According to a recent survey by the National Day Nurseries Association, 76 per cent of its members found that the fees received from the councils did not cover their costs and that the same proportion were either breaking even or making a loss. Members said that the conditions were in “a terrible state” and that “Staff are on their knees and nobody ... cares.” The minister knows all of that, because I have been telling her repeatedly about it for years on end. The Deputy Presiding Officer: Please ask a question, Mr Rennie. Willie Rennie: The time for reviews is over. When will there be a fair rate for doing this really important job? Natalie Don-Innes: Mr Rennie knows that I am very switched on to this issue.”
“That message has been put across to NHS Tayside, and I expect the same to be the case in relation to the culture that Mr Rennie asked about. I have said very clearly, in response not only to today’s questions but to other questions that have been asked in recent weeks, that I expect there to be a culture of candour and a speak-up culture in our NHS, to ensure that staff and patients are given the service that they deserve.”
“Neil Gray: That is exactly what I relayed to the chief executive of NHS Tayside when I spoke to her earlier today. From the conversations that I have had with some of Mr Rennie’s, Mr Marra’s and Ms Smith’s constituents, as well as others who have made representations to me on behalf of constituents and whom I have met, I know what a low level of trust there is in NHS Tayside. In answer to Liz Smith, I set out that I recognised that trust in NHS Tayside was already low, and I have made clear to NHS Tayside the reputational damage that what has happened has caused, not only to NHS Tayside and the wider NHS, but to the process through which the constituents whom Mr Rennie represents were hoping to get answers.”
“I add my fury to the fury that has been expressed by others. For a long time, the basic problem has been that patients have believed that NHS Tayside has been secretive and evasive in relation to the Eljamel issue. That is why we are having a public inquiry. Many of these matters could have been dealt with years ago if only NHS Tayside management had been open. Any trust that remained has now been completely shattered, so I hope that the Parliament speaks with one voice in telling NHS Tayside that it has done irreparable damage, not only to trust in NHS Tayside but to trust in the NHS as a whole, and I hope that the cabinet secretary relays the anger that many of us feel and our strong belief that there needs to be a change in culture and a change in approach so that we never face the same situation again.”
“The UK Government and the Scottish Government must get their act together and work on a proper just transition, so that we do not end up arguing polar opposites but can have a—to some degree—boring, managed plan; so that people can live and work here and pay their taxes; so that we can have energy security in this country; and so that, all together, we can deliver on our climate change obligations. Is that too much to ask for? It sometimes seems that it is.”
“The North Sea oil and gas basin in the United Kingdom is, of course, a declining resource—that is a geological fact—but we are not making that decline any better by having such an aggressive EPL tax regime. The UK Government needs to understand that, if we are going to live with this for generations, we need a more sensible arrangement. I will admit that we supported a levy on excess profits back in 2022. We thought that it was the right thing to do at the time, because the profits were excessive. That does not mean that we were committed to it forever, though, ignoring the reality on the ground of an extended windfall tax arrangement irrespective of the impact on people and their livelihoods.”
“However, the UK Government is so far behind the curve that the OBR does not even have projections for what tax that would raise. We need to get real. We can see, right now, the impact of jobs going in the north-east—the Aberdeen Cyrenians have already been referred to—and it is a handbrake on the region’s economic prospects. We have seen the impact at Mossmorran, on my doorstep, and at Grangemouth, where Petrofac is going into administration with 2,000 jobs. Many of those people will not go for other opportunities in Scotland; they might just disappear abroad, and we will lose the skills base that might be essential for developing the renewables potential that this country clearly has. The transition must be managed. Fergus Ewing: Will the member give way? Willie Rennie: I am sorry, but I do not have the time.”
“Willie Rennie: For years, we have talked about a just transition, and we now have it—live—in front of us but lacking a joined-up approach. Last night, I was at the Mossmorran working group, which I thought was quite an open and reflective event, but the deal was already done, the jobs have gone and there is no just transition plan for Mossmorran, as had been promised. That happens over and over again. I understand that the Scottish Government will point to the Westminster Government, but the reality is that we do not have a plan whereby things work together in a joined-up way to make the transition work. Today, the UK Government has buried on page 71 of its budget document the replacement for the EPL, the oil and gas price premium, which is projected to be replaced by 2030, with a consultation in the year 2026-27.”
“In what was quite a unique collaboration, Offshore Energies UK and Scottish Renewables joined forces recently and called for the energy profits levy to be scrapped and replaced. They said: “Unless we slow the pace of decline in North Sea oil and gas while simultaneously accelerating the scale and speed of renewable energy deployment, we face a widening gap in jobs, investment and capability that will weaken our economy. Ultimately, this will make the government’s energy ambitions harder to achieve, and cause long-term damage to our communities.” Gillian Martin: Does Willie Rennie agree that decommissioning has not been mentioned enough in the debate? Much of the activity that the supply chain and workers would have been doing relates to decommissioning, but they do not have the headroom to do it. That is another area that is costing jobs.”
“However, I point out that the latest national dental inspection programme results show that 81.5 per cent of primary 7 children have no obvious tooth decay, which represents a vast improvement since 2005. Hip and Knee Replacement Surgeries (Waiting Lists) 3.”
“The progress that was being made through Childsmile has stalled, and the poverty gap is still pretty stubborn. I am sure that the pandemic had an impact on that, but there is no doubt that the lack of national health service dentists in large parts of the country, including in North East Fife, is also having an impact. What more will the minister do to improve the service in areas such as mine? Jenni Minto: I remind Willie Rennie and other members that I have been working hard with those in the equivalent role to mine in the other three United Kingdom nations. Unfortunately, a number of the levers are held at Westminster, and Stephen Kinnock has not, to date, provided us with the support that we need to ensure that dental therapists are put back on the visa list.”
“To ask the Scottish Government what its response is to the reported concerns and frustration of the Educational Institute of Scotland about its four-day working week proposal for teachers. (S6T-02771)”
“The Cabinet Secretary for Education and Skills has announced a brand-new plan to deliver the Scottish National Party’s promise on reducing teacher contact time. Can the First Minister tell us what is new about that plan? I assume that there was engagement and consultation with the councils and unions, so I assume that the strikes at the end of January are now off. When, therefore, will the plan be implemented?”
“The Deputy Presiding Officer: We move to the open debate, with speeches of up to four minutes from back benchers. 16:35”
“However, as soon as the education secretary got a hold of it, she in effect rejected it. The Government has no real vision. I do not really understand what it is trying to achieve. I would love it to focus, for instance, on parity of esteem between vocational and academic education, which would make a transformational difference to many young people who get lost at school because school does not fit their needs. I would love a proper programme of consequences and boundaries to empower teachers to manage their classrooms. I would love best practice on dealing with additional support needs to be shared across the country, so that young people with those needs get chances just like everyone else. However, the Government is just lost. It does not seem to know what it wants to do with education. I just wish that that would change.”
“If that is what she wants, she should come out and say it rather than just hint at it. If that is her policy, let us have that discussion. I do not think that Scotland wants to get into another debate about structures, just as we have done in the debate about skills. We should focus on the challenges that we face rather than have diversionary debates about structures. On additional support needs, the cabinet secretary celebrates recruiting more ASN teachers, but it was this Government that cut the number of teachers in the first place, so it is not something that we should celebrate. Finally, there was the Hayward review. That was commissioned by the Government and spent months—years—debating the issue and gathering the support of many people across the education world.”
“Although the cabinet secretary has not mentioned it, within a few months we are supposed to have closed the gap. The reality is that, although we are supposed to have made that progress, the gap has flatlined over the past few years, particularly in secondary school. It is worth reminding people—I know that it is boring—that the then First Minister said that we would judge her on education. However, she is nowhere to be seen now and the cabinet secretary does not even talk about that promise any more. The education secretary has scrapped the regional collaboratives that the now First Minister introduced. However, you will notice that she continues to refer repeatedly to the fact that local authorities—32 of them—run the Scottish education system, with a hint that she wants to centralise education.”
“In addition, international performance data triggered a serious debate about the performance of Scottish education. The Government has lost its way. It spends most of its time repairing the damage that it caused in the first place, rejects the reviews that it commissioned and is failing to deliver on its own promises. Let us consider teacher contact time. It was a big promise, which the Government was supposed to have delivered by now. Although the last SNP manifesto promised that it would be 90 minutes a day, we know that it is 90 minutes a week. Teachers are furious, so much so that they are talking about going on strike at the start of next year. We should have delivered that promise by now, but the SNP has failed to do so and is typically blaming somebody else for that failure. Then there is the poverty-related attainment gap.”
“Teachers and staff do some really good things in schools. They achieve an awful lot and transform young people’s lives, and we should recognise that. However, I sometimes think that the Government is a hindrance rather than a help in that regard. We have massive challenges in our schools with behaviour, additional support needs and absence, which are all interconnected. Moreover, many teachers leave the profession because they have just had enough—they are fed up with the regular attacks and the challenges of coping with the fact that 40 or 50 per cent of their classes, sometimes more, have additional support needs without the appropriate support to help them. There is, of course, the long-vaunted closing of the poverty-related attainment gap, which has basically not changed since Nicola Sturgeon promised to close it about 10 years ago.”
“My plea is for us to have a wider debate about all those things so that we can get the economy moving, rather than having narrow debates about structures. The Deputy Presiding Officer: We move to the open debate. 15:28”
“What we need in our skills set-up is for the funds to follow the learner, but they also need to follow employers’ needs now and in the future. That is a complex set of conditions, but instead of having discussions about that, we are back to a discussion about structures. The thing that concerns me most is that we are not getting to grips with our 16 to 64-year-old working-age population. The economic inactivity in that group is one of the highest in the United Kingdom. It bounces between one in four and one in five. We need those people to work in order to pay the taxes to fund our public services. However, the economy—that whole system—is broken. That is what I believe. It is not just about the narrow apprenticeship system; the fact is that we are not focusing on the whole economy, the skills within it and economic inactivity.”
“There is therefore potential for youth unemployment—particularly in Dundee, in this case—as a result of failed employer demand. However, the college is unable to take on those young people to do higher national certificates or other qualifications, because its funding has been cut. The system is unable to flex based on the confidence in the sector. I think that the minister, with his bill, is trying to get a whole-system approach, but the reality is that the whole system is the economy. It is not just about apprenticeships and universities and colleges—it is about everything. For example, yesterday’s announcement of the delay to the heat in buildings bill will further knock confidence in the companies that are looking to employ plumbers. That has an impact on confidence so that we cannot transform the heating systems in buildings.”