Willie Rennie
Scottish Liberal Democrats · Scotland
“Daniel Johnson’s remarks were powerful, and he identified an issue that is sometimes uncomfortable and that we need to address. The country faces difficult issues, and we do ourselves no favours by ignoring those issues. Some of the points that Daniel Johnson made about immigration were right, and we need to discuss them.”
“Again, Daniel Johnson highlighted that when he talked about comments on “fighting- age men”, “strangers” and “two-tier policing”. We know what those terms mean and what they are appealing to. Thomas Kerr: Will the member take an intervention? Willie Rennie: Yes, I will take an intervention from Mr Charmer himself.”
“I understand that a German company will now use the Dalzell plant as a jobbing mill, importing 4,000 tonnes of slab from a foreign supplier outside the UK instead of purchasing that slab from Scunthorpe. All that raises serious questions about an important part of the steel industry in Scotland.”
“It is important for the UK Government that there is learning from the process and that the circumstances of our Parliament—for example, when we re-form following an election—are not an afterthought in relation to the UK Government’s formulation of its approach to legislation and when it decides to introduce it.”
“So far, the Scottish Government has not been formally asked to provide support, but I advise the member and the chamber that the issue was part of my discussions with the UK Government minister yesterday. The legislation extends to Scotland, and the steel undertaking would capture the site.”
“Will that be repaid, and at what point? When will we have a proper functioning mill—the only wide-plate mill in the United Kingdom—at Dalzell? When will it have a constructive relationship with the Scunthorpe plant? All those issues should be at the front of the Government’s mind, but, as usual, it is not paying attention.”
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“It is important that we learn the lessons from this, rather than its being forgotten as a one-time episode. Will the cabinet secretary consider a national investigation if that is what the task force finds? Neil Gray: I very much appreciate Willie Rennie’s testimony. I again offer my condolences to Lori Quate for the unspeakable and unimaginable pain and torture that he must be experiencing. I am grateful to Willie Rennie for his support and representation on Lori Quate’s behalf. In my statement, I set out the steps that I believe we can and are taking regarding the HIS inspection regime. However, I remain open- minded.”
“I have been working with Lori Quate for some time. As we saw in the programme last night, he lost his wife and daughter within 24 hours of each other. That was a traumatising experience. I welcome the cabinet secretary’s statement, because it does not ask whether there is a problem; it acknowledges that there is a problem. These are not isolated cases; there is a problem with the system as a whole. We have seen from the inspections in NHS Lothian and NHS Tayside that that is the case. The question now is how we deliver change. I accept that the cabinet secretary has set out a series of procedures and processes and a new task force. However, if he finds through that task force that a national investigation is required to stimulate adequate change across the country, will he agree to such an investigation?”
“We have seen that before when targets and plans have been set out for sectors. However, if we keep on punting it into the future because it is a bit too difficult, we will not be able to meet the targets that will be passed through the Parliament today. I hope that the minister will take that message on board and that she understands that she will have to work harder to convince us. 18:08”
“It should be buzzing away with installers who are desperate to keep up to speed with demand. However, the association was so downbeat today, because the Government has devised a scheme that is bureaucratic and slow for applying for grants. The sector should be desperate to take on apprenticeships and workers to meet that demand, but it is not. We are losing sectors’ confidence that the Government means what it says. Farmers have been waiting for years to get the future agricultural support scheme in place. The target of the beginning of the next decade for a massive reduction in carbon emissions was looming, but we did not have that for years; it took a long time. Farmers wanted a plan so that they would know what to work for. People are innovative; they can change and adapt to what is expected of them.”
“Willie Rennie: The cabinet secretary is setting out a false choice. At no stage did I say that I would vote against the targets. I am urging the minister to reflect on the fact that people are sceptical about the Government’s ambition. She will have to work harder to convince us that she will come forward with a meaningful plan that allows enough time for various sectors across the country to implement it. That is all that we are saying. I think that the minister can see that it is reasonable for us to be sceptical, because, as I say, we have been in this position many times over many years—a position where the Government has failed to come up with the details. Today, my friend Brian Whittle and I were at the Energy Efficiency Association. The energy efficiency sector should be vibrant and bubbling.”
“Chris Stark, who sat on the Climate Change Committee, which we all respect, described setting targets with no idea about how to meet them as the “sugar rush” phase. That is the phase that we are in now—it feels great to set carbon targets without spelling out the difficult stuff that needs to be done. I accept that it is hard to do those things—if it was easy, we would have done it ages ago—but the longer we take to set out the details that we expect people to follow, the harder it will get. Gillian Martin: Does Willie Rennie not agree that, if the Parliament votes down the targets today, what he wants me to do in setting out a climate change target will become impossible, as I will have to set out new budgets and a new climate change plan will have to be drafted to meet those targets?”
“The cabinet secretary surely must know that the Parliament is sceptical, and it is right to be sceptical, because we have been here before. The Government spent years boasting about world- leading climate change targets, but we did not have a world-leading climate change plan to go along with those. So when the Government eventually had to concede that it was not going to meet those climate change targets and we in the chamber accepted that that was inevitable, we thought that the Government might have learned its lesson and that it would have a plan to match the targets. I understand that the process is difficult, but the cabinet secretary will have to go further to convince us because of that scepticism.”
“I do not agree that it was damning; there were some real positives in there, and it was clear that we are still on track to deliver the Promise by 2030. In relation to tracking progress, we have the Promise progress framework and “Plan 24-30”— there are several ways in which we are looking to track progress on the Promise. However, we need to be clear that it is not all about measurable data. There are real people and real lives. We know that the Promise is for transformational change—that is systemic change, and it is not going to happen overnight. Although there are aspects that are measurable, which we will track, there are also real lives at stake. The change that is happening on the ground, which is not always measurable, is very important, too.”
“I acknowledge the minister’s efforts in the past year to resolve this problem. However, this playing catch-up is typical of the Government’s approach to keeping the Promise. First, we read in the damning Audit Scotland report about the lack of planning by the Government over many years to deliver the Promise, which means that we are now behind schedule. Secondly, in the Education, Children and Young People Committee this morning, witnesses told us about the lack of engagement—and, again, planning—on the new Promise bill. Is the minister going to change the Government’s approach to keeping the Promise? Natalie Don-Innes: I welcome the Audit Scotland report and I will take time to consider its recommendations in full.”
“That uniquely Scottish route is a great advantage, but the Government can no longer claim credit for it. Parity of esteem can no longer be regarded as a priority for the Government. The Government is not even meeting the demands in relation to the apprenticeship scheme. That is why it needs to realise that it is not fulfilling its rhetoric. All that it has given us is words, and the reality is that we are facing cuts. The Deputy Presiding Officer: We move to the open debate. 16:28”
“Last week, I attended a meeting with the EIS Further Education Lecturers Association, which is very concerned about the changes at the University of the Highlands and Islands. Dundee and Angus College is having to make £2.5 million of savings this year. Courses have been cut, student numbers are down and buildings have been closed. That is happening across the country. Therefore, there are a number of things that the minister can no longer claim. First, he cannot claim that he is creating opportunity for people from disadvantaged backgrounds. Colleges are often the route out of poverty, the route into a good job and the route to a good life. As a result of the cuts to colleges, those opportunities are being reduced. Colleges are particularly important when it comes to the route through FE into HE.”
“Murdo Fraser: Does Mr Rennie share my concern—I am sure that he does—about what is happening at Scotland’s Rural College’s Elmwood campus in Cupar, where, thanks to cutbacks, courses are being downgraded and removed, which potentially threatens the entire viability of a campus that is of great importance to people locally? Willie Rennie: Absolutely. The SRUC is one of those hybrid institutions that provide both higher education and further education. Its main building has been closed, the farm has been sold off, the student accommodation has been closed and the golf course has, in effect, gone. All of that has happened on the SNP Government’s watch. The SRUC is not alone. There are concerns about cuts at Fife College and Forth Valley College in Alloa.”
“The SFC predicts that more is yet to come, unless steps are taken. That comes on top of the Government’s record over the past 15 years, roughly since the regionalisation programme, during which colleges have experienced successive cuts at every opportunity. I do not think that that has happened because Government ministers have wanted to cut college funding but, when ministers are faced with a number of choices, the college sector simply does not compete. As far as the Government is concerned, the sector does not have the requisite political weight or attractiveness. That is why colleges are always at the end of the queue when there is money to go round.”
“We should celebrate both those things, but that is where the good news ends. Brian Whittle: Will the member take an intervention? Willie Rennie: Not just now. Throughout the debate, we have heard repeatedly about the Audit Scotland report, which is one of many reports that should cause the minister, who has newly taken up his post, to shiver. The college sector has experienced a 20 per cent cut in real terms in the past five years alone. In addition, in its delayed report on financial sustainability, the Scottish Funding Council has identified that most colleges are not financially sustainable and that some are on the verge of insolvency. That should be enough to keep the minister awake at night. Student numbers have been cut by 12 per cent and staff numbers by 8 per cent, so the capacity of colleges has been reduced, too.”
“I feel so much better in this second Conservative debate, because the acceptable faces of the Conservative Party are back on the front bench again, giggling away and enjoying themselves—that is what we prefer to see, rather than those in the previous debate. I have two bits of positive news. First, there is high demand for apprenticeships. We should celebrate that fact; it is a positive thing. Businesses want to take on people of all ages in apprenticeship programmes—that is a great thing. The demand is way in excess of what we are supplying, but it is a positive thing. There is hunger for a growing workforce among those companies, which is a good thing. Secondly, in the most recent budget negotiations, the Liberal Democrats pursued £3.5 million for skills support in offshore wind and social care, which is progressing.”
“They could be my brother, my sister, my sons, my mother or my father. They could even be me. In any other circumstance, any one of us could be in that position. When we use such generalised language and such exaggeration, we dehumanise every single one of them. Russell Findlay knows that that is the truth, and that is why he is refusing to engage on the substance of the issue. The Deputy Presiding Officer: I appreciate that emotions are running high. However, members need to be careful about their language not only when they are making a speech and their microphone is on, but when they want to make an intervention and it is not taken. That is not an opportunity for them to start bad-mouthing members across the chamber. We move to the open debate. 16:18”
“The fact that there are so many boats coming across the Channel is down to the Conservatives. Because of the rules that they set in place, asylum seekers are not able to work. All of that is Conservative policy. Russell Findlay did not talk about the detail; he just wanted to engage in the rhetoric of generalisation and exaggeration. Not all asylum seekers are criminals. Russell Findlay: Will Willie Rennie take an intervention? Willie Rennie: No. Not all asylum seekers are paedophiles. The generalisations that Russell Findlay made this afternoon demeaned him as much as they demeaned his party. Whatever terminology we use—asylum seekers, migrants or illegal migrants—it is important to say that they are all people. I do not think that we heard that once from Russell Findlay.”
“I see all those things, along with the fact that many people are struggling to make ends meet, because their bills are going up and the cost of heating their homes is going up. I see all the challenges that people face, but we need to come up with practical measures to solve the problem instead of just hyping up the rhetoric, because that does not solve anything. I think that we should declare the situation a national emergency. We need to have new processing centres that are independent of the Home Office, to put new energy into the processing of applicants. The Conservatives should have a degree of humility, because we know that it was the Conservatives who created this crisis during their many years in government. The fact that the hotels are so full is down to the Conservatives.”
“I am taking only one intervention. I do not think that people on the streets of Kabul are celebrating the change in the rules on local connection for housing allocation policy in Scotland. They do not see that as a magnet. What Russell Findlay said is a complete exaggeration. He tried to draw attention to the fact that there has been a change in the rules, which he said is resulting in mass immigration in Scotland, but that is simply not the case. However, we must accept that the UK asylum system is in crisis. I see what other people see. I see the hotels and the expense. Craig Hoy: Will the member take an intervention? Willie Rennie: No. I see the boats. I see the pressure on public services. I see that the people we are talking about are not working—we do not allow them to work.”
“It is interesting to watch the body language of the members on the Conservative benches. I know that many members over there are very uncomfortable with the approach taken by their leader. They are right to be uncomfortable with his approach: Russell Findlay made no attempt to justify his motion. He provided no evidence that the so-called change in the rules in 2022 is attracting people to Scotland. Russell Findlay: Could Willie Rennie explain why Glasgow has a record 7,500 homelessness applicants? Willie Rennie: In that intervention, too, Russell Findlay made no attempt to draw a connection between the change in the rules and the number of homelessness applicants in Glasgow or anywhere else in Scotland. Why did he pick on Glasgow? The rules were changed throughout Scotland. Russell Findlay: Will Willie Rennie give way? Willie Rennie: No.”
“When I launched that service, I spoke to an autistic young person who had benefited from it. The importance of that service is revealed by what it gave them—with support, they were able to move from economic inactivity into a job in which they are thriving and in which the company is benefiting greatly from their skills. I am happy to pick up with the health secretary the issues that Mr Rennie mentions.”
“Is the cabinet secretary in discussion with the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care about the creation of a neurodevelopmental pathway for adults? Many of them are economically inactive and are desperate to get the services that have been denied to them so far. That would not only help them to get back to work and reduce the dependency on benefits but ensure that we have economic growth where we desperately need it. Shirley-Anne Somerville: I am very happy to carry on the discussions about neurodevelopmental pathways for children, young people and adults. Mr Rennie is probably already aware of the fact that, very recently, I announced an employment and employability support programme for disabled people, which will be available across the country.”
“The First Minister: Mr Rennie gives me an opportunity to reinforce the point that I made to Liz Smith, which is that it is the Government’s expectation that NHS Tayside will consider actively, on a case-by-case basis, whether the time bar should be used as a plea or not. That is influenced by the circumstances and the details that emerge. The point that Mr Rennie makes about new information emerging as part of the public inquiry is absolutely material to that consideration, and I hope that that provides him with assurance. I acknowledge Mr Rennie’s long-standing interest in this question. For me, it is vital that members of the public who have suffered are able to get to the truth and have no legal obstacles to being able to pursue that truth. National Health Service 6.”
“I thank the First Minister for his detailed and considered answer, which is helpful. However, I am standing here to make sure that it is fully understood by all those in positions of power and in the courts that there is a strength of feeling from Michael Marra, Liz Smith, me and many others who have constituents who have suffered for years. They have waited for years, and only now is the truth beginning to be fully established, thanks to the public inquiry. I reinforce the point that, if we can lift the time bar, it should be lifted so that compensation can be made available to those who have suffered for far too long.”
“To ask the Scottish Government whether it will change the college and university funding frameworks to reflect the hybrid nature of Scotland’s Rural College, which has both higher and further education provision. (S6O-05017)”
“If it then comes to removing a gulls’ nest, eggs and chicks, NatureScot should be in a position to do that as long as there is a health and safety reason for doing so.”
“The reaction from local authorities, councils and other agencies to attacks has often been too slow, bureaucratic and complicated, and people just give up as a result. Can the minister guarantee that, after this campaign, there will be a swift and simple process that people can follow to get action taken? That ultimately has to be the aim. Jim Fairlie: I am disappointed in Willie Rennie’s question, because he is asking for simple solutions to a complex question. Mr Rennie is talking about the licence application process. However, it is not simply a case of saying, “Yeah, there’s gulls there—knock them out.” That is not what it is about. It is about ensuring that all the appropriate actions have been taken to put in place other mitigations and that people have tried every other method of removing the gulls.”
“I know many young people who would just love a day without having to go on their phone, because of the way that it changes their demeanour and their ability to talk in the playground, the canteen or the corridors. They would be able to get those human connections back again, rather than everybody being stuck on their phone all the time. We can seek the positive of that change in behaviour with schools as a haven, and we should be aiming for that. I will support the motion and the Conservative amendment this afternoon, because we need to go further. The Deputy Presiding Officer: We move to the open debate. 15:18”
“I would like the cabinet secretary to reflect on that in her closing remarks, because we need to send a very clear signal to headteachers about what we think that the balance is. The cabinet secretary has a leadership role in that regard. In addition, headteachers need a bit of support, because they face a number of different challenges. Those include sometimes quite challenging parents who come into the class and demand things from teachers and from the headteacher. If direction comes from the education secretary, it means that the headteacher has her support. The headteacher knows that the cabinet secretary has their back, which perhaps makes it slightly easier to implement a ban. A final point is peer pressure.”
“We should recognise that the evidence and the science are clear: it is not a good thing for phone use to be happening in class. We should not leave any doubt about that, and the cabinet secretary needs to play a role in that regard. There has been a bit of a difference in the way that the cabinet secretary has talked about the issue today. On the one hand, she has said that she thinks that phones are a distraction but, on the other hand, she has said that she wants to leave the power with the headteacher. I want to empower headteachers, but that indicates that there may be circumstances in which it is appropriate to have phones in class. We need to be clear that the evidence is growing—the science and the studies are clear— that that state of hypervigilance is not a good thing.”
“Patrick Harvie made the point that the wider world of the internet presents an extreme challenge to our way of life. School can often offer a haven of education and peace, and a bit of normality, away from everything in the wider world. If there is trouble at home, school can be a place of safety. What we are talking about today is exactly how we execute that. I would like to see the evidence as to the impact of the cabinet secretary’s current policy so far. I hear of some good examples where phones are handed in at the front of the class at the beginning of the lesson and handed back at the end, which has an impact on the performance of the class. Equally, however, I hear too often that there is still a debate about whether phone use in class is a good thing or not.”
“I think that there is agreement that the use of mobile phones in the class can be incredibly distracting. There is growing evidence from across the education world that it damages academic performance and can be a major source of distraction. The constant notifications that we all experience on our phones can create a state of hypervigilance and a lack of concentration. That has an effect on the school more widely—for example, on the number of conflicts and fights between pupils, and pupils’ conflicts with teachers. I think that members on all sides of the chamber accept that that is the case and that phone use in class contributes towards the trio of issues that the cabinet secretary often talks about: absence, additional support needs and behaviour. It adds to the mix and exacerbates the problems within that.”
“Unfortunately, we have one hand tied behind our back, given that the UK Government has changed visa allowances, which affects our ability to ensure that people can come into the country so that we have the right dental teams. We are investing in education to open up more places for dentists in Scotland. I point out that NHS Fife has benefited from the Scottish dental access initiative, which enables more dentists to open up practices in Fife. I regularly have such conversations with NHS Fife. The Deputy Presiding Officer: I call Paul Sweeney, who joins us online, to ask a brief supplementary question. I give one last call for Paul Sweeney. Are you there?”
“The minister is not living in reality. The reality is that we are losing NHS dentists. The Cupar Dentist is providing an emergency service only, and it has been like that for months. We have lost dentists in Newburgh, Leven and Glenrothes. In many parts of Fife, people simply cannot get treatment. The minister surely has to accept that the payment review that she introduced in November 2023 is just not working. When will she get back to reality? Jenni Minto: I am living in reality. The conversations that I have had with a number of dentists show that they are pleased with the funding change that we introduced two years ago. However, as I said to Mr Whittle, do we have to do more? Yes, we do.”
“The truth is that fishermen are increasingly being squeezed out of prime fishing grounds. NnG Offshore Wind agreed compensation for people using static and mobile gear. However, since then, wind farms have given compensation only to people using static gear—the creel fishermen. Will the minister intervene and make sure that all wind farms give compensation to all parts of the sector? Jim Fairlie: As Willie Rennie knows, fisheries compensation is a private matter between the wind developers and the fishers. The Scottish ministers have no regulatory or statutory mechanism for involvement in leveraging such financial payments. However, I am quite sure that, if the member writes to the Cabinet Secretary for Rural Affairs, Land Reform and Islands, she will pick up that point for him.”
“I know that Ivan McKee is working hard to overcome that. We also need to work very carefully on heat in buildings and on accessibility measures. I am in favour of them, but we need to get them right so that we incentivise that investment and get the best possible homes. Most of all, we have to build confidence, and for that we need stability and certainty—sometimes boring certainty—to make sure that house builders can invest for the longer term. We will vote for the bill because it contains some really good measures on domestic abuse, homelessness and Awaab’s law, and we will continue to work constructively with the Government, as we have done throughout the bill’s passage, to make improvements. I commend the bill to the Parliament.”
“There is a delicate balance to be struck in making sure that tenants have the rights that they deserve and the homes that they need, including family homes. However, we also need to do everything that we can to incentivise investment, and we have been pretty poor at that in recent years. There is still quite a bit of work to be done. I hope that the exemptions will be as generous as we can make them, in order to incentivise investment in mid-market rent and build-to-rent, but also significant investment by landlords. There should be measures to exempt them so that they can get a return on the investment; otherwise, we will find that we are not getting the appropriate investment in all properties, which is the thing that we desperately need. We need to do an awful lot of work on planning, which is still seen as a barrier in many areas.”
“This very day, Homes for Scotland told us that the number of new starts across all sectors is the lowest since 1996. We have a long way to go to build confidence within the sector. We need every part of the housing sector—it should be seen as one sector—to play its part in dealing with the housing emergency. Those who seek to demonise parts of it are undermining the very objectives that we are trying to achieve. We need the private sector—all those house builders who battle away through the various barriers at different times to build houses in communities that they care about. They want to deal with the housing emergency and to be partners, and we should welcome them as partners just like the public sector and charities. They will help us through this difficulty, and we should welcome their help.”
“I praise the clerks and officials for their talent, their tolerance of this Parliament and their stamina. Their stamina has been outstanding throughout what felt like months at stage 2 and years at stage 3. I want members to show their appreciation. [Applause.] The Liberal Democrats will vote for the bill. It is not the bill that we would have introduced, nor would we have gone through this process, which has knocked confidence within the sector at various stages. However, it is now a better bill and it is a bill worth voting for. We are in a housing emergency. It is disappointing that it has taken a housing emergency for housing to get the priority that it has deserved for a long time. However, it has that priority now, and there should start to be some changes so that we can deal with the housing emergency.”
“Techscaler has a great focus on the educational element, but the challenge to the answer that I am giving is that it is self-selecting. In other words, those who are already interested in developing a business or whatever, particularly with a focus on AI, will probably self-select to become part of the Techscaler programme. The question that Willie Rennie asks is about the wider cohort of people who do not feel that they have AI skills. Richard Lochhead has just launched the AI Scotland programme, which is specifically designed to embed AI much more widely in the public and private sectors, and a big part of that involves equipping people with the skills to make them confident in applying or working with”
“Just 8 per cent of firms have full access to the necessary skills to effectively use AI tools and tech. That is according to Hays, the specialist recruitment agency. However, in the past 20 years, we have lost almost 30 per cent of our computing science teachers. How will Techscaler succeed if we do not have the necessary skilled workers to work in the sector? Kate Forbes: That question is worthy of a much longer answer than I am about to give, but Techscaler is one part of the answer. Techscaler equips, enables and supports founders. A point that is frequently put to me is that building up a density of companies and entrepreneurs who are all doing this activity makes it a lot easier to attract the skills to Scotland in the first place.”
“I know that Willie Rennie is engaged in constructive discussions on alternative funding models, along with Universities Scotland. I look forward to further conversations with him, and I hope that this answer reassures him in that regard. Extreme Wildfire Warning 2.”
“I am disappointed with the minister’s approach this afternoon. It seems to be a step backwards, because his predecessor had accepted that the funding model for higher education was broken and had opened the door to cross-party discussions with the universities. Is Ben Macpherson saying that that has now been abandoned? [Interruption.] Ben Macpherson: I seem to have a drummer to my left. [Laughter.] I am not saying that that approach has been abandoned. I embrace it fully, and I want to bring the same approach to the process. I did not mean in any way to disrespect another member or to say, implicitly or directly, that I am closed to anything—apart from bringing in tuition fees, which the Scottish Government has had and continues to have a strong position on. That is our policy.”
“Motion agreed to, That the Parliament agrees to the general principles of the Tertiary Education and Training (Funding and Governance) (Scotland) Bill. The Presiding Officer: The next question is, that motion S6M-18687, in the name of Shona Robison, on a financial resolution for the Tertiary Education and Training (Funding and Governance) (Scotland) Bill, be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No. The Presiding Officer: There will be a division. The vote is closed. Willie Rennie: On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I have a different excuse this time. My app would not connect at all. Beatrice Wishart and I would both have voted no. The Presiding Officer: Thank you, Mr Rennie. We will ensure that both votes are recorded.”
“For Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP) Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire South) (SNP) Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP) Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green) Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP) Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green) Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Don-Innes, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP) Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) Ewing, Annabelle (Cowdenbeath) (SNP) Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP) Forbes, Kate (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) Gilruth, Jenny (Mid Fife and Glenrothes) (SNP) Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP) Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP) Gray, Neil (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green) Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP) Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green) [Proxy vote cast by Ross Greer] Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP) Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP) Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (Ind) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP) McKee, Ivan (Glasgow Provan) (SNP) McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP) McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP) McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP) Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green) Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green) Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP) [Proxy vote cast by Fulton MacGregor] Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP) Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP) Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP) Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP) Against Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con) Carlaw, Jackson (Eastwood) (Con) Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab) Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD) Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con) Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Lab) Golden, Maurice (North East Scotland) (Con) Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (LD) Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) Hoy, Craig (South Scotland) (Con) Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Halcro Johnston, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con) Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con) Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con) McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD) McCall, Roz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab) Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con) Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD) Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Russell, Davy (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (Lab) Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab) Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab) Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con) Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con) White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con) Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab) Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con) Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD) [Proxy vote cast by Willie Rennie] Abstentions Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (Ind) Regan, Ash (Edinburgh Eastern) (Alba) The Presiding Officer: The result of the division on motion S6M-19027, in the name of Ben Macpherson, on the Tertiary Education and Training (Funding and Governance) (Scotland) Bill, is: For 62, Against 39, Abstentions 2.”
“On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I am ashamed to say that I have done it again—I forgot to vote on behalf of Beatrice Wishart. She would have voted no. The Presiding Officer: Thank you, Mr Rennie. We will ensure that Ms Wishart’s vote is recorded.”
“The answers are all vague, and we need more than vague if we are going to spend up to £22 million or £25 million. As the bill progresses—the Greens will vote with the Scottish National Party, so it will pass stage 1—we need to hear a more convincing case from those who are involved about what we will get for our money, because we are looking for a return on our investment. Does structural change deliver the big bang that we are looking for to address all the concerns of employers that I set out at the beginning of my speech? It is over to the minister to get the system in order and ensure that he can convince members that it is all worth it. The Deputy Presiding Officer: We move to the open debate. 15:42”
“That is a lot of money when things are tight. The figure includes costs of up to £8 million for pensions; £4 million for information technology; potentially up to £8.5 million for restructuring; and transition costs of up to about £5 million. Those costs are not insignificant. Ross Greer: Will Willie Rennie take an intervention? Willie Rennie: I want to make a few more points. That is quite a lot of money, and we have to work out what we will get in return. I have challenged a number of people, including those in the SFC, to give me some tangible examples of what will improve. I get vague answers about articulation and simplification, but I want an example. What cannot be done just now, with SDS, and what will be done with the SFC?”
“John Mason: A lot of what Willie Rennie has said is exactly what I am thinking, too. Does he think that the many SDS staff who will transfer to the SFC will give the SFC the good relationships with industry that it needs? Willie Rennie: That could well happen, but SDS staff are pretty annoyed. I have met some of them, and they are pretty upset about how they have been treated. We need to get them in the right headspace to be able to contribute and make the change. That is possible, and the reform of the SFC board might improve the situation. It is a possibility, which is why my response this afternoon is nuanced. SDS has a greater focus on employers, and it is SDS’s job to run modern apprenticeships, so there is a single focus in that regard. Do we want to remove that? We then come to the costs, which are about £22 million to £25 million.”
“We have seen all the fires that are going on in further and higher education—at Dundee and at Perth this week—with college funding, with reinforced autoclaved aerated concrete and with international student volatility. Any one person or organisation would struggle to cope with all those issues at the best of times. Does the SFC have the headspace to take on this job, as well? Secondly, does the SFC have as good a relationship with employers as SDS has? Whatever its flaws, SDS is recognised as having decent relationships with employers. Is it possible for the SFC to create those relationships in the same way and give confidence to the sector, so that people who might otherwise focus on the problems in the higher and further education world will be able to cope with the change?”