Willie Rennie
Scottish Liberal Democrats · Scotland
“Daniel Johnson’s remarks were powerful, and he identified an issue that is sometimes uncomfortable and that we need to address. The country faces difficult issues, and we do ourselves no favours by ignoring those issues. Some of the points that Daniel Johnson made about immigration were right, and we need to discuss them.”
“Again, Daniel Johnson highlighted that when he talked about comments on “fighting- age men”, “strangers” and “two-tier policing”. We know what those terms mean and what they are appealing to. Thomas Kerr: Will the member take an intervention? Willie Rennie: Yes, I will take an intervention from Mr Charmer himself.”
“I understand that a German company will now use the Dalzell plant as a jobbing mill, importing 4,000 tonnes of slab from a foreign supplier outside the UK instead of purchasing that slab from Scunthorpe. All that raises serious questions about an important part of the steel industry in Scotland.”
“It is important for the UK Government that there is learning from the process and that the circumstances of our Parliament—for example, when we re-form following an election—are not an afterthought in relation to the UK Government’s formulation of its approach to legislation and when it decides to introduce it.”
“So far, the Scottish Government has not been formally asked to provide support, but I advise the member and the chamber that the issue was part of my discussions with the UK Government minister yesterday. The legislation extends to Scotland, and the steel undertaking would capture the site.”
“Will that be repaid, and at what point? When will we have a proper functioning mill—the only wide-plate mill in the United Kingdom—at Dalzell? When will it have a constructive relationship with the Scunthorpe plant? All those issues should be at the front of the Government’s mind, but, as usual, it is not paying attention.”
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“I deeply regret that, because employers are divided and there is concern in the sector that we are not addressing those fundamental problems. When I visited the excellent Dundee and Angus College yesterday, I heard stories from young people there about their lives being transformed. People who had not spoken for years had been lifted out of that state and are now on the verge of employment. Some really good people are being trained, and the opportunity for work is therefore increased. That shows the diversity in the sector. I then went downstairs to see the plumbers, who told me that, because of the minimum wage, employer national insurance contributions and the state of wider business confidence, employer demand for apprenticeships in that sector has fallen.”
“The good news is that there is huge demand for apprenticeships. It is fantastic that so many people are willing to learn and that we have excellent people who are prepared to impart their knowledge in our colleges and workplaces. There are also employers who are desperate to take new people—particularly young people—into their workforces. The bad news is that, as we know, the system is disjointed. It has been criticised repeatedly by Audit Scotland and in the Withers report. My disappointment is that all the knowledge that James Withers shared is now being narrowed down into a structural discussion about whether SDS should have some of its powers removed and transferred to the Scottish Funding Council. We are not debating any of the other issues that we should be debating.”
“Given the incredible endeavours of our Scotland men’s team in getting there, we will want to ensure that we have some kind of fan zone or facility so that people can—I hope—celebrate Scotland bringing the trophy home. The Deputy Presiding Officer: On that happy note, I will have to bring the urgent question to a close, because I need to protect the rest of the afternoon’s business. I apologise to the members whom I was unable to call. There will be a short pause before we move on to the next item of business. Skills System”
“We should win football matches more often, because I have never seen the chamber so united. People are even agreeing with Douglas Ross—that is how extreme it is. Alex Cole-Hamilton wants to have a party, so I, too, want to agree with Douglas Ross about the licensing arrangements and having big parties with huge screens in different parts of the country so that people who cannot get across the Atlantic can enjoy the games back here. Will the cabinet secretary seriously consider that? Neil Gray: Absolutely. We will need to work with our local authority and SFA partners to look at what we can do to maximise people’s ability to engage with what will be a remarkable sporting summer to come next year, with the Commonwealth games and the world cup.”
“As I said in an earlier answer, we set out in our tax strategy our position with regard to what we want to see going forward. Of course, we will have to see what next week’s UK Government budget brings, but we recognise the importance of the issue to people’s household incomes, and we have taken measures to help to sustain them. We will continue to do what we can in that spirit. A77 (Road Safety Improvements) 8.”
“Whatever the Government’s interpretation of the figures, I think that the cabinet secretary has to accept that many people feel that they are paying higher taxes and that Scotland has a reputation as a high-tax country, with no discernible improvement in public services. Will the cabinet secretary reflect that in future decisions about taxation? Shona Robison: First, I acknowledge something that Willie Rennie said. People are feeling the pressure of the cost of living crisis. They feel that their income is not going as far, given the cost of food, utility bills and their mortgages, all of which are putting pressure on household incomes. I recognise that, but the Government’s tax policies have raised important additional funding for public services.”
“CMutual and Maiden Life Försäkrings (Family Protection Plan Withdrawal) 4.”
“In that answer, there was not one word of apology for the hundreds of millions of pounds that have been spent on the two ferries, which are late in being delivered for the islanders and which have embarrassed the workers as a result of the leadership of the Scottish Government. Can the Deputy First Minister tell us whether any further consideration has been given to the repeated calls for someone to pay the price for this disaster? Is any minister finally going to resign for it? Kate Forbes: In the light of Willie Rennie’s request, I am more than happy to repeat the apology that I have previously given from this desk in the chamber to all the islanders who have not been able to access a sustainable route because of the delay on the two vessels and because of the project being over budget.”
“Willie Rennie talked about issues not coming as a surprise. The issues that the business has cited are not a surprise. We have been talking about high energy bills and some of the wider challenges for years. The difference is that I cannot do anything to change high energy bills. The point that I made in my statement is that, when there are risks of redundancies and risks to critical plants, the Parliament has an opportunity to speak with one voice in demanding policy changes that will secure their future. To do that, we need to know what is having the biggest impact, and it is there in front of us—today’s comments from ExxonMobil regarding the plant refer to the fiscal and policy changes that need to be made.”
“I have lived in the shadow of Mossmorran for almost 30 years, in good times and in bad times—and there have been bad times. It is an important local employer. What surprises me is that the Government is always surprised when such announcements come. It should have seen this coming, because there have been warnings for years, but we still have shocking statements in the Parliament. When will we have a proper plan for such events, as was promised years ago, so that we can have a just transition, which the Government is brilliant at talking about but never delivers? Kate Forbes: There has been wider engagement over an extended period, but the challenge that we face right now goes to the heart of ensuring a proper just transition. We need to support assets that are at the heart of a just transition but that face enormous challenges.”
“I think that it is a bit wide, so we will move on to the next question, which, I hope, will relate directly to the matters that were raised in the statement. I hope that Jackie Dunbar will be on point. Willie Rennie: On a point of order, Presiding Officer. The Deputy First Minister specifically referenced franchising in her statement and, in fact, Jamie Hepburn also referenced franchising in his question, so I think that my question is particularly appropriate. The Deputy Presiding Officer: I heard a lot of talk about Stagecoach and franchising in Tayside and Strathclyde, but I am not entirely sure that those issues are relevant to Alexander Dennis. As I said, I would like to move on to Ms Dunbar’s question.”
“The Deputy First Minister is not able to tell us an awful lot about Alexander Dennis, following on from her previous statement, so I will ask her about the franchising powers in the 2019 act, which Jamie Hepburn referred to. The First Minister will be able to say, quite rightly, to the Deputy First Minister that Stagecoach is a law unto itself in Tayside and Fife, chopping and changing services regularly. We will not get the franchising powers in Scotland until at least 2030. Why is it taking so long to get the powers in place? Work is moving forward in Strathclyde, but Fife is even further behind. Why are we not making progress? The Deputy Presiding Officer: I am not entirely sure of the direct relevance of that question to the statement.”
“We understand that the plan will seek to rebalance the cost of electricity relative to gas, which is critical to this work. However, I do not know what is in the plan yet. Despite Scottish ministers repeatedly asking what is in it, we still have no clarity. As a Government and as a Parliament, we should not be prepared to make laws that affect the people of Scotland when we are not in receipt of information on the full policy landscape. For want of a few more months, I think that the people of Scotland can understand their Government and their Parliament waiting to make sure that we have the full information in front of us before passing laws.”
“The cabinet secretary has the nerve to stand here and claim leadership on climate, when she is delaying the very bill that is supposed to be tackling the issue. She boasts that she has taken action on thousands of homes, when, in fact, we have millions of homes in Scotland. Truly, that is a drop in the ocean. When will the cabinet secretary stop blaming everyone else and accept responsibility for this humiliating climb-down? Màiri McAllan: That is quite unnecessary rhetoric from Willie Rennie—not for the first time. [Interruption.] The Presiding Officer: Let us hear one another. Màiri McAllan: What the Government is proposing today is a sensible, reasonable and pragmatic response to the fact that a UK Government—to be fair to it—intends to bring forward a warm homes plan.”
“On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I would have voted yes. The Presiding Officer: Thank you, Mr Rennie. I will ensure that that is recorded.”
“I have no idea what the Tories’ position is at present. I would have hoped that all of us, as democrats, could agree on one thing: that the future of the country should be determined by the people. That is why, given the change of circumstances post- Brexit, a majority in this Parliament wish there to be a referendum on Scotland becoming an independent country within the European Union. I am sorry that the Liberal Democrats are departing from what I thought was their traditional position, which is to support Scottish home rule and Scottish self-government. The Deputy Presiding Officer: That concludes portfolio questions on constitution, external affairs and culture, and parliamentary business. In the interests of time management, we will move straight to the next portfolio. Justice and Home Affairs”
“The Greens say that the SNP’s latest currency policy would be catastrophic. At the previous SNP conference, the policy was described as a “dangerous experiment”. Even the highly respected Robin McAlpine said: “for god sake get off this mad, mad bus.” Why will the cabinet secretary not get off the bus? [Applause.] Angus Robertson: I do not know how comfortable Willie Rennie is with being applauded by the Conservatives; I would be a little bit concerned if I were him. Surprise, surprise—there are different views on Scotland’s constitutional future. This party and the Scottish Green Party are in favour of Scotland becoming an independent member state of the European Union; the Liberal Democrats are in favour of a federal United Kingdom; and I think that the Labour Party is in favour of protecting devolution.”
“Where things are not working—I am aware of some issues from my constituency work—I want to make sure that they are revised and reformed in order to get more people through the door and more energy efficiency measures into homes. I am happy to work with anyone in the chamber on—and I want to hear from people in the chamber about—any issues that their constituents have had with Home Energy Scotland. I will feed those issues back, because it has to be fit for purpose, and the job that it will do will be even more important over the next five years. The Deputy Presiding Officer: We have taken 20 minutes. A number of colleagues still want to ask questions. I will get them all in, because we have some additional time over the course of this afternoon, but I would appreciate a little more brevity in questions and responses.”
“There are good things in the plan, but I think that the cabinet secretary knows that not much in today’s plan is really new. I have read it, but it does not contain an awful lot that I did not know already. I would expect one group of people to be enthused by the whole climate change agenda: energy efficiency installers. I go to their conference every year, but I have never seen them as downbeat as they were this year. That is because of the broken Home Energy Scotland system of grants and loans. I urge the cabinet secretary to change that system at last so that people are incentivised to put in new heating systems and the industry can get moving. Gillian Martin: Willie Rennie puts a fair challenge to me, because Home Energy Scotland gets a lot of Government funding and it is our vehicle for encouraging people.”
“In the housing emergency action plan that the Government produced over the summer, we committed to just that, coupled with a commitment of up to £4.9 billion over the next four years. The affordable housing supply programme is funded to the tune of £808 million this year, and we have committed on a multi-annual basis up to £4.9 billion over the coming four years. I will be working very closely with councils to ensure that that added certainty results in increased delivery, because I know that our communities need that. Permitted Development Rights Consultation (New Homes) 6.”
“I agree with Annabelle Ewing about the adaptations process. It takes a very long time for some people to get the adaptations that they need. When the cabinet secretary met Fife Council to discuss the affordable housing programme and other matters, did she give the council more foresight about how much money will be available to it, so that it can plan for the future? I have never seen the housing situation in Fife as bad as it is now, and Fife Council is keen to get on with the work. I hope that the cabinet secretary was able to give it some foresight. Màiri McAllan: One of the main representations that have been made to me is that multi-annual certainty is needed on funding, because that is essential for people to plan things that are by their nature multi-annual, such as house building.”
“We have lots of talk and lots of plans—a Cupar flood study is coming up—but I have not seen very much actual change. I pay tribute to the River Eden Sustainability Partnership, which is working with landowners on removing invasive species from that river. It is doing some really good—and hard—work, and if we can get a partnership approach going between it, the farmers and all who have an interest in the river, we might be getting somewhere. 13:23”
“However, I feel that we are not even at the races when it comes to discussing with farmers and landowners exactly what will work in their area. I know that it takes a lot of work to get down to that level, but river basin and catchment management plans are just so remote—they are way above everything else, and they do not involve discussions with landowners at ground level in the way that is needed to change their practice. Secondly, there are no incentives for them to change. Why would they? They know what they know about how to work their land, and they need to be encouraged and incentivised to make changes to the way in which they operate. Just now, we are not making any such changes. Two years after the devastating flood in Cupar in my constituency, not very much has changed.”
“I have heard people talk many times about Eddleston Water, which is a great project. They keep telling me that the same approach would apply to the River Eden in Fife, but there are so many differences between the Borders and Fife, and we should not think that simple, well-worked and successful solutions in one part of the country will apply without change to other parts of the country. I want a plan for every different type of area. Solutions to flooding, for instance, are very clear. We have seen from infrastructure projects just how much money we are spending on flood prevention schemes—the cost is soaring. We cannot afford to do those things everywhere, so we need to look at natural flood management systems.”
“In the past few years, we have had everything from devastating floods to water scarcity. That scarcity has had a dramatic impact on the yields of farmers. I had thought that vegetables and potatoes would be impacted, but it turned out— bizarrely—that, in north-east Fife, it was barley yield, of all things, that was affected. That was at a time when the whisky industry was under quite a bit of strain and taking less of that commodity. Nevertheless, the impact of climate change is very clear. What has come through from all contributions to the debate, including Paul Sweeney’s, is the wide diversity of rivers. They are not all the same; they have different topographies, sizes, flows, soil types, economic value and surrounding populations. Therefore, we need different answers for every river.”
“Christine Grahame is right—there is something about rivers that gets into one’s soul. They are really important for the lifeblood of the nation. They are important for the economy, leisure, the environment, biodiversity and the climate—there is a range of sometimes competing demands on them. I like nothing better than running along a riverside, and I have run alongside many in the Borders, so I concur with Christine Grahame. I congratulate Audrey Nicoll on opening the debate and lodging this motion. The Dee is one of the great rivers; it is a powerful river that contributes significantly not just to the economy of the area—as Alexander Burnett, rightly, highlighted—but its biodiversity. If anybody is in any doubt that there is climate change, they just have to look at water.”
“This moment must never be routine. As the years pass, it is natural that the sense of sheer enormity of the horror of the first and second world wars diminishes. However, the more years that pass, the more important it is that we all stand together to make the simple but powerful point that we will never forget their sacrifice, because it was horrific. Every family was affected right across the land. The more years that pass, the more we must stand together and never forget those sacrifices or our commitment never to repeat that again. First Minister’s Question Time 12:04 Tax 1.”
“Amendment 380 agreed to. Amendments 381 to 391 moved—[Mairi Gougeon]—and agreed to. The Presiding Officer: That ends stage 3 consideration of amendments. As members will be aware, I am required under standing orders to decide whether or not, in my view, any provision of a bill relates to a protected subject matter—that is, whether it modifies the electoral system and franchise for Scottish parliamentary elections. In my view, no provision of the Land Reform (Scotland) Bill relates to a protected subject matter. Therefore, the bill does not require a supermajority to be passed at stage 3. Before we move to the debate, I call Mairi Gougeon to signify Crown consent to the bill. Mairi Gougeon: Yes, there is Crown consent to the bill. The Presiding Officer: Thank you, cabinet secretary. Land Reform (Scotland) Bill”
“For Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP) Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire South) (SNP) Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP) Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green) Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP) Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green) Choudhury, Foysol (Lothian) (Ind) Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab) Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD) Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Don-Innes, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP) Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Lab) Ewing, Annabelle (Cowdenbeath) (SNP) Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (Ind) Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP) FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) Forbes, Kate (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) Gilruth, Jenny (Mid Fife and Glenrothes) (SNP) Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP) Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Gray, Neil (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (LD) Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green) [Proxy vote cast by Patrick Harvie] Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Lennon, Monica (Central Scotland) (Lab) Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP) Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green) [Proxy vote cast by Patrick Harvie] Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP) Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP) Marra, Michael (North East Scotland) (Lab) Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (Ind) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP) McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD) McKee, Ivan (Glasgow Provan) (SNP) McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP) McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP) McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab) Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP) O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab) [Proxy vote cast by Michael Marra] Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD) Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green) Russell, Davy (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (Lab) Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green) [Proxy vote cast by Maggie Chapman] Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP) Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP) [Proxy vote cast by Fulton MacGregor] Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab) Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP) Thomson, Michelle (Falkirk East) (SNP) Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP) Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab) Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab) Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP) Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD) Against Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con) Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con) Carlaw, Jackson (Eastwood) (Con) Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con) Eagle, Tim (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Findlay, Russell (West Scotland) (Con) Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Gallacher, Meghan (Central Scotland) (Con) Golden, Maurice (North East Scotland) (Con) Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con) Gulhane, Sandesh (Glasgow) (Con) Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) Hoy, Craig (South Scotland) (Con) Halcro Johnston, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con) Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con) Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con) McCall, Roz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con) Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Reform) Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con) Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con) White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con) The Presiding Officer: The result of the division is: For 90, Against 28, Abstentions 0.”
“Amendment 377 agreed to. Amendments 378 and 379 moved—[Mairi Gougeon]—and agreed to. Amendment 380 moved—[Mairi Gougeon]. The Presiding Officer: The question is, that amendment 380 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No. The Presiding Officer: There will be a division.”
“For Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP) Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire South) (SNP) Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP) Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green) Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP) Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green) Choudhury, Foysol (Lothian) (Ind) Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab) Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD) Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Don-Innes, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP) Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Lab) Ewing, Annabelle (Cowdenbeath) (SNP) Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (Ind) Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP) FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) Forbes, Kate (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) Gilruth, Jenny (Mid Fife and Glenrothes) (SNP) Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP) Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Gray, Neil (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (LD) Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green) [Proxy vote cast by Patrick Harvie] Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Lennon, Monica (Central Scotland) (Lab) Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP) Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green) [Proxy vote cast by Patrick Harvie] Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP) Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP) Marra, Michael (North East Scotland) (Lab) Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (Ind) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP) McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD) McKee, Ivan (Glasgow Provan) (SNP) McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP) McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP) McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab) Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP) O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab) [Proxy vote cast by Michael Marra] Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD) Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green) Russell, Davy (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (Lab) Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green) [Proxy vote cast by Maggie Chapman] Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP) Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP) [Proxy vote cast by Fulton MacGregor] Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab) Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP) Thomson, Michelle (Falkirk East) (SNP) Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP) Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab) Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab) Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP) Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD) Against Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con) Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con) Carlaw, Jackson (Eastwood) (Con) Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con) Eagle, Tim (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Findlay, Russell (West Scotland) (Con) Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Gallacher, Meghan (Central Scotland) (Con) Golden, Maurice (North East Scotland) (Con) Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con) Gulhane, Sandesh (Glasgow) (Con) Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) Hoy, Craig (South Scotland) (Con) Halcro Johnston, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con) Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con) Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con) McCall, Roz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con) Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Reform) Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con) Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con) White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con) The Presiding Officer: The result of the division is: For 90, Against 28, Abstentions 0.”
“Amendment 231 agreed to. Schedule Amendments 367 to 372 moved—[Mairi Gougeon]—and agreed to. Amendments 373 to 376 moved—[Tim Eagle]— and agreed to. Amendment 377 moved—[Mairi Gougeon]. The Presiding Officer: The question is, that amendment 377 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Members: No. The Presiding Officer: There will be a division.”
“On a point of order, Presiding Officer. My phone is not working. I would have voted yes. The Presiding Officer: Thank you, Mr Rennie. We will ensure that that is recorded. For Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP) Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire South) (SNP) Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP) Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green) Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP) Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green) Choudhury, Foysol (Lothian) (Ind) Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab) Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD) Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Don-Innes, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP) Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Lab) Ewing, Annabelle (Cowdenbeath) (SNP) Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (Ind) Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP) FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) Forbes, Kate (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) Gilruth, Jenny (Mid Fife and Glenrothes) (SNP) Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP) Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Gray, Neil (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (LD) Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green) [Proxy vote cast by Patrick Harvie] Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Lennon, Monica (Central Scotland) (Lab) Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP) Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green) [Proxy vote cast by Patrick Harvie] Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP) Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP) Marra, Michael (North East Scotland) (Lab) Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (Ind) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP) McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD) McKee, Ivan (Glasgow Provan) (SNP) McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP) McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP) McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab) Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP) O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab) [Proxy vote cast by Michael Marra] Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD) Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green) Russell, Davy (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (Lab) Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green) [Proxy vote cast by Maggie Chapman] Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP) Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP) [Proxy vote cast by Fulton MacGregor] Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab) Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP) Thomson, Michelle (Falkirk East) (SNP) Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP) Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab) Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab) Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP) Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD) Against Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con) Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con) Carlaw, Jackson (Eastwood) (Con) Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con) Eagle, Tim (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Findlay, Russell (West Scotland) (Con) Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Gallacher, Meghan (Central Scotland) (Con) Golden, Maurice (North East Scotland) (Con) Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con) Gulhane, Sandesh (Glasgow) (Con) Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) Hoy, Craig (South Scotland) (Con) Halcro Johnston, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con) Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con) Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con) McCall, Roz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con) Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Reform) Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con) Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con) White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con) The Presiding Officer: The result of the division is: For 90, Against 28, Abstentions 0.”
“I sometimes worry that it is felt that the greater good requires that that individual remains in their post but, when there is an investigation, we must have a situation in which everybody is open and the NHS professionals do not feel that they need to cover for one other. I do not know how often that happens—”
“In Jacqui’s case, that failure of candour led to the failure to allow her agency over her own life and decisions. The second point that a national investigation, which I think should happen, should consider is the failure to follow standards and guidelines—in this case, because they were considered too long to read. Why on earth would that ever be a barrier? If they are too long to read, we should have guidelines that are succinct and to the point and which can be applied. The other more difficult point—this is difficult for us, because we are talking about NHS staff, who we admire greatly—is about the cover that some professionals provide for other professionals in times of stress and investigation.”
“Sandesh Gulhane: Does Mr Rennie agree that, when, as I have been told, we have multiple instances of only two midwives being on when there should be seven, they simply do not have the time to do the job that they really want to do? Willie Rennie: I think that that is true. NHS Lothian has a complement of about 450 midwives, so if 70 midwives had to be brought in, that shows a massive shortfall in the number of staff. Sandesh Gulhane is right, but we should not let the issues of resources and staff hide the fact that there are some issues of culture at the centre of this, which we need to dig into. Even if we had the fullest complement of staff, we might still have issues with the culture of candour, recording and the consequences of failing to record.”
“In the event that we held earlier today with other families, it was quite clear that themes were developing involving different health boards in various parts of the country. The duty of candour is at the centre of this. I know that Stephen Kerr has done a lot of work in that area. In this particular case, there was no adequate recording of the overdose, yet there was no penalty at the end of the process for that failure. We have a situation in which people are perhaps incentivised not to declare because of the fear of admitting that they have got something wrong, but, equally, there are no consequences for their failure to record.”
“He is somebody who has fought almost every single day since then to get answers not just for him and his family, who are also here today, but for families across the country, and for the good staff who work in hospitals, who deserve support. He has been determined to get answers ever since that day, in May 2020. He showed that determination in our meeting with the cabinet secretary today, and I think that the cabinet secretary will agree that he did not hold back. He was very straight about the fact that we want a national investigation into the reasons for the number of failings that have been identified. The case involving Jacqui concerned a drug overdose that was administered, which we believe led to an amniotic fluid embolism. There is a debate about that, but there are wider issues that are really significant.”
“It is important to begin by recognising that the vast majority of births in Scottish hospitals are managed successfully, and that the mothers and children leave those hospitals safely. We should also thank the thousands of staff who work on those units across the country, because they do a spectacular job in really difficult circumstances. What we are talking about today is what we do when things go wrong—and things have gone wrong on far too many occasions. Olivia was stillborn in Ninewells hospital, just over five years ago. Twenty-four hours later, Jacqui, her mother, was gone as well. Members will have witnessed the testimony of her husband, Lori, who is in the gallery today. He uncharacteristically broke down in that documentary. It was quite a rare breakdown for him, because he is an astonishing champion.”
“NHS Highland’s review incorporated the findings from two external reviews and recommended the move to the current model of maternity care that is operating in Caithness. That being said, I am sympathetic to the concerns that are raised in the Liberal Democrat amendment, and the concerns that my colleagues Maree Todd and Emma Roddick have raised in—”
“I believe that that culture has been exposed in the HIS inspections; we saw that that was central to the criticism in the Royal infirmary of Edinburgh report. I will not tolerate that—I expect to see improvements in the culture, and we are seeing management improvements and changes as a result. That is why I have confidence in the situation that is being developed through the HIS inspections. If that changes in any way, I am open to what Stephen Kerr suggests. With regard to Mr Rennie’s amendment, as I said in my statement last week, I expect the task force to look at rural maternity services as one of its first areas of focus. Members will be aware that NHS Highland instigated a review of services in Caithness in 2016, following the death of a full- term baby in Caithness general hospital.”
“Neil Gray: I do not know how much time I have left. The Deputy Presiding Officer: We have used up all the time in hand. I expect to extend the debate a little, given the nature of the discussions, but, as I say, we are over time. Neil Gray: If Mr Kerr could be pithy, I will take the intervention. Stephen Kerr: I will be very pithy. Despite what the cabinet secretary says, I cannot see how, without a national inquiry, we can get to the issues of culture that he spoke so strongly about last week. It is one thing to make pronouncements but another to bring change about. Without a national inquiry and a set of recommendations to do just that, how do we proceed? Neil Gray: I have already said that, should the HIS inspections that we are getting before March, and the task force, recommend that course, that is what I will do.”
“The new Scottish maternity and neonatal task force, which I announced last week, will review the findings of the HIS inspections. Two of those inspections have already taken place in Tayside and Lothian; they are complete and reported. HIS has committed to performing eight NHS acute maternity inspections by March 2026. Following the review of the findings and recommendations of those inspections, if the task force recommends a wider national review, I confirm to the Parliament that the Government will take that forward, giving full consideration to staff and patient welfare. I hope that that makes it clear to members that the Government is not shutting down the prospect of a review, but that the processes that are already under way should conclude in the first instance. Stephen Kerr: Will the cabinet secretary give way?”
“We expect a significant number of additional inspections to take place before March—eight, I believe—which will give us good coverage across the country and a full picture of the situation. I very much understand the situation that Jackie Baillie and Willie Rennie outline, but the HIS report regime will give us that full picture. Pam Duncan-Glancy: My colleague Marie Tidball MP has started a campaign about the experience of disabled people during maternity on the back of the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine report finding that disabled women are 44 per cent more likely to have a stillbirth than non-disabled women. Will the cabinet secretary confirm that any investigation that takes place will be inclusive of all women, including disabled women? Neil Gray: It absolutely has to be, of course; there is no equivocation on that.”
“I understand the cabinet secretary’s point, which is that he wants immediate action. However, in his statement last week, he set out a series of investigations and HIS reports that have been conducted over many years, yet we still had that “Disclosure” documentary and that devastating impact. He must surely recognise that the current system of investigation is just not enough on its own. Neil Gray: I disagree. Healthcare Improvement Scotland inspections have only begun this year to uncover the challenges that we have seen in Tayside and in Lothian. They have come as a result of the previous neonatal investigations, and the Government accepted the need for that acute maternity inspection process. That is what HIS is currently embarked on.”
“Of course, I am concerned by the fact that people are choosing to go through private healthcare. I want to give people the assurance that activity levels are up— and up substantially—because of the investment that we have made and the incredible dedication of staff, and that waiting times are falling. Progress has been made and the plan is working. The figures for private healthcare in Scotland stand in stark contrast to the usage of private healthcare elsewhere in the United Kingdom. That is because we want to protect and enhance NHS capacity in”
“In 2024, there were 50,000 private hospital admissions in Scotland. That was a record high. In the first quarter of 2025, there was another record high. The figure has gone up by 42 per cent in the past five years. The British Medical Association’s survey was clear that the majority of people are choosing that option because the NHS waiting lists are just so long. Is the cabinet secretary not concerned that his Government is privatising the NHS by stealth? Neil Gray: No, absolutely not. I agreed with much of what Willie Rennie had to say until that final part. The basic principles that this Government is taking to reform and renewal work in the health service are based on ensuring that our health service continues to be free at the point of use and publicly owned.”
“I understand that issues of compensation are currently private matters, but I appreciate the difficulties that he raises. Agricultural Land (Change of Use) 7.”
“The Fife fishing industry is deeply concerned that livelihoods will be disrupted by the offshore wind farms that are being built in the Forth without any compensation. Inch Cape, unlike the Neart na Gaoithe wind farm, is refusing to provide compensation for the mobile gear—the prawn boats—even though the cables are running through those fishing grounds, whereas the static gear is being compensated for. Will the cabinet secretary have a discussion with her colleagues to put together—at last—a compensation scheme for all the fishing industry, rather than just the statics? Mairi Gougeon: Willie Rennie raises an important point that is, of course, impacting heavily on the industries in his constituency. I am more than happy to follow up with him and to have conversations with my colleagues to see what can be done in that regard.”
“Should further information come to light, or should any of the discussions that I have with the Patient Safety Commissioner, or the information that comes through the HIS reviews, require us to have more national oversight, I will consider that. It is important that we act now rather than wait for the outcome of a review. The HIS inspection regime allows us to operate live to ensure that we are addressing concerns and problems where they arise on a localised basis.”