Willie Rennie
Scottish Liberal Democrats · Scotland
“Daniel Johnson’s remarks were powerful, and he identified an issue that is sometimes uncomfortable and that we need to address. The country faces difficult issues, and we do ourselves no favours by ignoring those issues. Some of the points that Daniel Johnson made about immigration were right, and we need to discuss them.”
“Again, Daniel Johnson highlighted that when he talked about comments on “fighting- age men”, “strangers” and “two-tier policing”. We know what those terms mean and what they are appealing to. Thomas Kerr: Will the member take an intervention? Willie Rennie: Yes, I will take an intervention from Mr Charmer himself.”
“I understand that a German company will now use the Dalzell plant as a jobbing mill, importing 4,000 tonnes of slab from a foreign supplier outside the UK instead of purchasing that slab from Scunthorpe. All that raises serious questions about an important part of the steel industry in Scotland.”
“It is important for the UK Government that there is learning from the process and that the circumstances of our Parliament—for example, when we re-form following an election—are not an afterthought in relation to the UK Government’s formulation of its approach to legislation and when it decides to introduce it.”
“So far, the Scottish Government has not been formally asked to provide support, but I advise the member and the chamber that the issue was part of my discussions with the UK Government minister yesterday. The legislation extends to Scotland, and the steel undertaking would capture the site.”
“Will that be repaid, and at what point? When will we have a proper functioning mill—the only wide-plate mill in the United Kingdom—at Dalzell? When will it have a constructive relationship with the Scunthorpe plant? All those issues should be at the front of the Government’s mind, but, as usual, it is not paying attention.”
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“I am keen to try to incorporate any possible improvements to the scheme to reduce bureaucracy and the wait that people experience. The indications are that we are getting through a powerful number of house retrofits in Scotland under the schemes that we run, but I am very happy to work with Willie Rennie and those whom he represents to find any possible improvements.”
“If we had a little bit less rhetoric and a bit more action, we might be a wee bit further forward on this programme. The thing that I am concerned about is the Home Energy Scotland grant scheme—the minister knows that I have a deep interest in that. Industry tells me that it is the biggest barrier to retrofitting in existing homes. The system is so bureaucratic that it is resulting in businesses losing millions of pounds of contracts because customers get fed up of waiting for answers. Will the minister make the reforms that are essential to incentivise the retrofitting of existing homes? Alasdair Allan: I was glad to get the chance to meet Willie Rennie and industry representatives from his constituency—or people whom he has been working to represent—on some of these issues.”
“We are keen to do that and our funding is available—we anticipate that the sum of £200 million will be available—and it is as simple as responding to the interest with investable propositions that all parties can back and take forward and getting those established as quickly as possible.”
“It is positive that Petroineos has said that it will act in good faith. However, what does the company require from the UK and Scottish Governments to give a greater commitment to the site, so that we can seek the opportunities, which obviously exist, for a well-serviced, well-located site? Kate Forbes: Now that the biggest opportunities have been highlighted, the process is about converting the level of interest that has been expressed to SE into genuine propositions that can be co-invested in. Project willow suggests that £4.25 billion will be required. Clearly, some of that will have to come from the private sector, so it will be a co-investment approach.”
“I would be happy to meet the member to continue those discussions, ahead of the votes in the committee on the bill. I would be very happy if, not only on those amendments but in the wider context of the housing emergency, we could share the endeavour across the chamber to find solutions. Social Security (Projected Spend) 6.”
“The big decline in new starts and completions is a clear indication that the previous leadership and policy on housing was part of the problem. I have lodged some constructive amendments to the Housing (Scotland) Bill to encourage investment in housing. They are designed to accelerate house building during the housing emergency. Is the cabinet secretary open to supporting those amendments? Shirley-Anne Somerville: The member knows that I am always happy to meet him to discuss his amendments and the other proposals that he has made on housing. I thank him for the constructive way in which we have had those discussions to date. I assure him that the Minister for Housing and I are taking a very close interest in the amendments that have been lodged.”
“I will continue to work with them and I will commit the resource that I am able to commit in order to see continued stabilisation, sustainability and onward growth.”
“The cabinet secretary knows that the health system is not working just now. The demand is going up and GPs’ responsibilities are going up, but the funding—the share of the national health service spend—has almost halved since 2004. What is the cabinet secretary doing to make sure that GPs can be recruited to local practices because they can afford it, by reversing that trend of decline in NHS funding? Neil Gray: I pointed Tess White to the picture of the funding that we have put forward in the budget in relation to the share of funding that goes to primary care, but I recognise Willie Rennie’s concern about the demands on general practice. My vision for what general practice can do for us, which is shared by the Royal College of General Practitioners and the BMA, is to have a sustainable, preventative health service.”
“I spend time every week reading through school reports from across the country, and it is important that they capture the granular detail of what is occurring in our schools. That work has been helpful to that end. I am more than happy to put Mr Rennie’s suggestion to the chief inspector when I next meet her.”
“The cabinet secretary says that behaviour in schools is better here. It must be atrocious elsewhere, because it is intolerable in this country, and we are asking teachers to put up with far too much. The Government’s plan is clearly not working yet. Therefore, will the cabinet secretary support a thematic inspection, as recommended by the NASUWT and similar to what the Office for Standards in Education, Children’s Services and Skills has introduced in England, to look at violence against women and girls in our schools and ensure that the action plan that the cabinet secretary has set out is working? Jenny Gilruth: Mr Rennie will be aware that, in 2023, I tasked our interim chief inspector of education with ensuring that inspections document the accurate picture of behaviour in schools.”
“If the bill falls, the message to the education world and the outdoor education centres across the country is that we do not value outdoor education and it is not a priority in our system. We must not go back to the way we were. That is why there needs to be an offer, or this bill. If the bill is what is needed, I will vote for it, but the Government needs to make much greater effort and offer something that is much more substantial than what has been offered up to this point, because, so far, there seems to have just been silence. The Deputy Presiding Officer: We will now move to the open debate. Speeches from back- bench members may be up to six minutes, for the most part. I advise members that we do not really have any time in hand. 16:15”
“I am not saying that I am special—I am not saying that I should have special negotiations—but I do not think that the minister has reached out to anybody in the chamber. If there were a substantial offer, I might find that quite attractive, as it might mean that we could get around some of the problems that have been identified by the committee in relation to teacher time, affordability, parental contributions, additional support needs, the needs of people in remote and rural areas and so on. The bill will pass stage 1 today, so, following this debate, I want the minister to reach out and offer something substantial, because the one thing that we cannot afford to do is to just to go back to the way that things were. There is no neutral position.”
“Children First put it well in its briefing when it said that outdoor education must not be the preserve of “the privileged few”—it must be available to everyone. I have been confused and slightly irritated by the Government’s approach. It clearly does not want to state its position, which is that it does not really like the bill. It is abstaining today and not taking a position, but is blocking the financial resolution for up to six months. There was no response to the committee’s report until late last night. In fact, I am not even sure that the Government had intended to put out a response. Most important of all, despite the concerns that I have expressed quite openly in the committee, there has been no reaching out.”
“There may not have been an evaluation of the outcomes of the vision, but we can see, day in and day out, that outdoor learning has been embedded in the curriculum. We have already touched on the fact that many pupils are able to access outdoor learning. I appreciate that we have more progress to make, but it is unfair to say that there has been no progress. Willie Rennie: The point that I made to the minister at committee was that that is all anecdotal. We had had no independent assessment of the real impact of the vision, so we were drifting. The minister may have had experiences that she is able to cite, but the evidence is just not there, which is an indication of the problem. There has been a dramatic reduction in the number of centres and beds.”
“Some councils are able to afford it, and they can prioritise it. The second thing that convinced me was the 27-page vision for outdoor learning, which was set up in 2010. We are 14 years on and hardly anything has been done since then. When I asked the minister when she was at the committee what the assessment of the impact of that vision was, there was nothing. I thought, “We can’t afford to stay as we are, drifting on.” It was only when Liz Smith’s bill came forward that a working group suddenly emerged. A working group is always the solution to everything. Natalie Don-Innes rose— Willie Rennie: Does the minister want to say something? Natalie Don-Innes: It is unfair to say that there has been no progress.”
“To be able to do things by ourselves, together with others, changes us. We have experienced significant problems with mental health, behaviour and absence, all of which combine to create almost a suppression of activity in schools. It makes the case for outdoor education really compelling. At the start of the bill process, I was sceptical, simply because money is really tight just now. It is really hard to squeeze out any money to do the things that we really want to do. When the witnesses were before the committee, I was giving them a bit of a hard time, because I wanted to know what the real value of the bill was. Sometimes, people explained clearly the real value. Over time, I was convinced and converted to the cause of the bill. First, many councils offer outdoor education already, so it is not outlandish or extravagant.”
“I will always remember Christina McKelvie speaking from the front bench, when she would speak not just with her words but with her body language. She was punchy and full of emotion. You knew exactly where you stood when she had finished with you, and I will miss her. All our thoughts are with Keith Brown and the family today. Our view about outdoor education was quite dramatically changed during Covid, when we simply could not get out and do the things that we wanted to do. I think that that is partly where the bill has emerged from. We had taken the outdoors for granted for so long, and then we were starkly reminded of it. We have learned, again, to remind ourselves about the confidence, leadership, self- reliance and team building that the outdoors brings. Just being away from our parents for the first time is a liberating experience.”
“He has raised issues with me in relation to children not being able to enter secure care from the children’s hearings system, but there should always be a plan in place. There could be a multitude of reasons why a child cannot enter secure care, over and above the capacity challenges that we are faced with just now. Conversations should always take place around where would be safe for a child if they cannot enter secure care. There are already plans in place. I feel that they are robust and that the conversations that take place between all the stakeholders that are involved in a child’s placement are strong enough. The measures that I have come to the chamber with today, on the restoration of capacity, will only strengthen them.”
“It is utterly shameful that the minister has presided over cobbled-together provision for people who are in desperate need of secure accommodation. We were promised that, through the Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Act 2024, there would not be a problem, but she has repeatedly come to the chamber to try to fix the very problem that she created. Can she guarantee that there is no two-tier system in which those who go through the courts versus those who go through the hearings system are dealt with differently? Natalie Don-Innes: I can guarantee that. As I have said, every child is looked at on a case-by- case basis. I disagree with the member’s idea of cobbled-together provision.”
“As I referenced in my earlier answer, the Deputy First Minister has been engaging with a range of stakeholders and partners, including those who operate in the mental health and disability spheres. I reassure Willie Rennie that the Government is committed to working in partnership at local, regional and national level to ensure that we can provide the most rounded and holistic support possible, to help to address economic inactivity. The Deputy Presiding Officer: With a reminder that the question is about economic inactivity in Fife, I call Daniel Johnson briefly.”
“Such high rates of economic inactivity are neither good for the individuals concerned nor for our long-term economy, especially as the new cohort of people who are economically inactive tend to be younger and have neurodevelopmental conditions. What discussions has the minister had with his health colleagues about prioritising neurodevelopmental services to ensure that we can get those people back to work, if that is possible? Tom Arthur: The Government takes that extremely seriously. Of course, as is implicit in the point that Willie Rennie makes, it is about not just employability services but mental and physical health services. We are taking an holistic, joined- up approach, recognising the multitude of factors that can determine whether someone is economically inactive.”
“We should ensure that everybody understands the benefit of fair trade, and the Government needs to ensure that every corner of Government activity endorses those principles, as well. 15:45”
“We need to ensure that we are purchasing in a controlled way, rather than an unfettered way. Yes, free trade can drive improvements in many countries and can create opportunities, growth and jobs, but, if it is not used in the proper hands, it can be used as a weapon. That is my second point of agreement with Patrick Harvie. President Trump is using trade as a weapon—not for the good of the globe, but for the good of his supporters in the United States. We should not support that, and we should recognise when trade is being used in those terms. I praise all those who have made sure that Scotland is a fair trade nation. However, there is so much more work to be done, and we should not rest on our laurels.”
“It is a low bar for local authorities to be involved, so let us challenge ourselves to be much better, rather than just accepting that we have passed the test. I pay particular tribute to St Andrews, which celebrates 20 years of being a Fairtrade town. The campaign there has been very effective, not just in ensuring that there is a range of products for people to buy, but in terms of good education, so that the local community can understand the challenges that we face in that area. So effective has the campaign been that the University of St Andrews is now a Fairtrade university, which is very positive. On Murdo Fraser’s point about free trade, yes, free trade is good—I am a Liberal, and I would, of course, say that free trade is a good thing—but unfettered free trade is not a good thing. We need elements of control and a moral compass.”
“I pay credit to the many organisations across the country that have engaged in fair trade over many years, and I recognise their contribution to making Scotland a fair trade nation—from councils to companies, communities and the public sector in all parts of the country. The weaknesses that the report has identified are quite sharp, however. Noting the point that John Mason made, there is quite a low threshold for passing the test, and we should be fully engaging across the country in order to say that we are truly a fair trade nation. A small number of schools are engaged in that. The NHS comes in for particular criticism in the report. Although it has a programme, is there proper engagement in the process? That is a big question.”
“There was not even a proper due diligence process involved in that. I would have hoped that the Government would perhaps be consistent across its fair trade policies for its procurement so as to tackle some of the deep-rooted problems. We are now going through the process of investing significantly in the ScotWind round of offshore wind farms, and many Chinese companies are interested in that work. I would hope that there would be some kind of process to check the supply chain for that. There are some challenges, and there needs to be a global effort to ensure that we understand them, but I am afraid that the silo mentality that exists now is just not adequate.”
“Consumer choice cannot do that alone; it needs Government action. Willie Rennie: On that scale of products, Government action is, of course, needed, as is a bigger-system approach. There needs to be a global recognition and understanding of where the challenges are. There is no way, I would imagine, that the Scottish Government could investigate the supply chain in China all the way down to the nth degree. However, there should at least be a due diligence process, which has been severely lacking in many cases. Some members will recall the issue of the China Railway Company No 3 Engineering Group in relation to human rights abuses in Africa. Through a subsidiary in the United Kingdom, it had offered a £10 billion deal to the Scottish Government to invest in infrastructure here.”
“There are very few countries in the world that produce solar panels, and China is one of the main producers, but we face a real moral conflict with that. It is too often the case that we parcel off the fair trade movement into a corner, and we do not think about the wider consequences of our main business. Patrick Harvie: Would Willie Rennie agree that the solar panel example that he gives is a good argument for why a systemic change approach is required? There is no way that the Scottish Government or any other Government could simply take over something like solar panel procurement and buy them on behalf of everybody. That would massively reduce people’s choice in installing the right kit in the right place. We need to prevent unfairly traded products from getting on to the market in the first place.”
“Presiding Officer, I am glad that you warned them before my speech, because I am sure that there would have been rapturous applause from across the gallery after they heard my rousing words. Elements of my speech are remarkably similar to Patrick Harvie’s speech, which causes me great anxiety this afternoon. Patrick Harvie: Sound judgment. Willie Rennie: Let us see. The joining-the-dots bit—about the silo mentality that exists—is a fair point. On the intervention that I made on the minister about Chinese-produced solar panels, the claim is that Uyghur Muslims are being used as slave labour to produce the panels that we are using in our effort to tackle climate change in this country. That is a real conflict.”
“The Deputy Presiding Officer: I call Murdo Fraser to speak to and move amendment S6M- 16923.1. 15:14”
“I move, That the Parliament welcomes Scotland’s renewed status as a Fair Trade Nation; recognises the dedication and hard work of Fair Trade campaigners, businesses and communities across Scotland in sustaining this achievement; congratulates Scottish Fair Trade for its leadership in promoting and strengthening Scotland’s Fair Trade commitment; acknowledges the vital role of Fair Trade producers, workers and enterprises in the Global South in building a fairer, more sustainable trading system; recognises that Fair Trade is a partnership that supports the rights, dignity and livelihoods of those throughout the supply chain, and commits to uphold and advance Scotland’s role as a Fair Trade Nation as part of its broader commitment to global citizenship and international solidarity.”
“We have been clear that we do not want to “balance the books on the backs of the poor.” Today’s debate on Scotland’s renewed fair trade nation status serves as an important reminder that we live in a world that is facing immense challenges and that we need to work together to ensure our planet is more equal, fair and sustainable for everyone. Promoting fair trade does just that. I am pleased to move the motion, and I ask members across the chamber to support it.”
“It is in recognition of the challenges that our partners face that we remain committed to growing the international development fund to £15 million by the end of this session of Parliament and to maintaining a £1 million humanitarian emergency fund. Scotland also faces its own challenges, of course, and we cannot shy away from the fact that there are increasing pressures on public finances. However, our international development funding reflects our commitment to support and align with the sustainable development goals domestically in Scotland and to contribute overseas as a good global citizen.”
“That is becoming ever more evident, with some global south Governments’ budgets so consumed with responding to the latest climate disaster and debt relief payments that little or nothing is left for health and education. This is why the Scottish Government established the world’s first climate justice fund, with the £36 million fund specifically focused on supporting the most marginalised communities around the world to address the impacts of climate change. That support extends to the very producers that we are discussing today. For example, the climate justice fund water futures programme in Malawi worked with UK retailers to ensure water sustainability for communities in Malawi to protect their key exports, namely tea and coffee.”
“According to the December 2024 report by the United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs, 305.1 million people are expected to require immediate humanitarian assistance in 2025. We have continued to respond to global crises, principally through our standing humanitarian emergency fund panel, including for the less well-known crises, such as that in Sudan. I turn to our commitment on climate justice. Scotland remains committed to addressing the injustice that is at the heart of climate change— that those who have done the least to cause the crises are suffering the impacts worst and first and are often the least able to respond.”
“Over the past year, we have launched new programmes on health and inclusive education, from new strategic education partnerships with the World Bank to support at a very local level for girls and learners with disabilities to better access school, and from a new strategic partnership with the World Health Organization on non-communicable diseases to developing community palliative care within our partner countries. Beyond our support for our partner countries, through longer-term programming, we have also continued to contribute globally where humanitarian crises occur. It was reported that 2024 had the highest number of countries engaged in conflict since the end of world war two. Climate change is increasing the risk of conflict, with more frequent extreme weather events and the world hitting 1.5°C for the first time last year.”
“The minister will have seen reports today challenging Ed Miliband on the sourcing of solar panels from China. Has he reassured himself about the source of solar panels that are purchased through Government schemes in Scotland? Angus Robertson: I am grateful to Willie Rennie for raising the issue. I have a confession to make: I have not read those reports yet. I commit to doing so, and will look closely at the points that he raised. I am just being frank with him; I have not yet read those reports. Fair trade, with its focus on global solidarity and marginalised producers, is an important part of our international development programme, alongside other key areas.”
“A few things that have happened since then have been mentioned. We now have the statutory single building assessment, which is backed up by the robust standards that I have talked about. We created the legislative framework through the 2024 act. As I said, we have spoken to COSLA about support for the approach that we have taken. I held a meeting with a committee—I think that it was the wellbeing committee—in that regard, speaking on that point to councillors who are responsible for building safety. The approach was supported at that time. As I said, the purpose of today’s announcement is to quicken the pace and to look at how we widen arrangements. That approach has been supported by COSLA, and we are working very closely with the regulator on”
“I am afraid that the minister is not inspiring confidence. He does not seem to be answering many of our questions this afternoon. Can he help me to understand? I would have thought that, by now, we would have known which buildings across Scotland were potentially at risk. Why are we only now doing a single open call? Why could that not have been done last year, the year before, the year before that or even the year before that? Why is this taking so long? Paul McLennan: I have said previously in the chamber that the pace should have been quicker. The very purpose of what has been announced today is to quicken the pace. Again, the pilot model and what we learned from it were key. A key thing that we are moving on now is the grant funding model, which, we think, will quicken the pace.”
“As Mr Rennie knows, in addition to the work with the university sector, a Royal Society of Edinburgh conference, which will help to move the discussion forward, is coming up towards the end of May. The sector is keen to lead on the development of potential solutions, but my door is absolutely open to Mr Rennie and others who want to engage constructively on the issue and bring forward ideas.”
“I hope that he accepts that, and I think that he understands that. If we use tuition fees as the blockage to a discussion all the time, we are going to get nowhere. Can I take the discussion with the minister forward? What particular discussions will there be? Who will be involved? By when will the discussions be held? Will all the parties in the Parliament be invited? When will we see a conclusion? Graeme Dey: We are absolutely open to having constructive cross-party discussions on the university funding model’s future, while recognising the changing circumstances that institutions find themselves in and what the sector’s future asks might look like.”
“We need to be clear that our support for free tuition is about more than ideology; it was founded on an equity-of-access approach. Beyond that, it is based on simple logic; we should all be mindful of the University and College Union survey of a couple of years ago that showed that, if tuition fees were to be reintroduced, as some suggest, two thirds of students would have at least to think hard about whether university was an option for them. That would potentially wreck the very foundations that our university offering is built on. Access to higher education that is based on the ability to learn, not the ability to pay, needs to stay. Willie Rennie: The minister knows that the issue is bigger than tuition fees; it is about the future of our universities and their world-class status.”
“Does the minister accept that the financial model for universities is broken? Graeme Dey: We recognise that the assumptions on which the financial settlements are predicated have changed, mainly through circumstances that are outwith Scotland’s control, as Mr Rennie alluded to. For example, damaging actions around migration and geopolitical events have impacted on a model that had worked previously. For our part, the Government is committed to engaging constructively with the sector to future proof the funding approach. The University of Dundee situation is uppermost in all our immediate activity, but the cabinet secretary and I have had a preliminary conversation with Universities Scotland on the funding approach and have agreed to return to the subject before the summer.”
“As I indicated at an Education, Children and Young People Committee evidence session some months ago, in response to a question that was also from Mr Rennie, we are absolutely open to exploring the future funding model with our universities, albeit starting from the position that we will not reintroduce tuition fees. Willie Rennie: That sounds like a step in the right direction. I accept that the UK immigration policy has not helped, but global factors have caused even more damage. Whatever the balance, it is clear that the funding model, which depends on high numbers of international students to subsidise our universities, is broken. Something has to change if we are to maintain the world-class reputation of our universities. Half of them had a deficit last year, and that was before the dire situation that has developed in Dundee.”
“We expect to see the results of that in the coming months. We have also been advocating, with the sector, for a Scottish graduate visa, and we need the United Kingdom Government to work with us on that. On the specific issue of funding, thanks to the recent Scottish Government budget, which was passed with the support of Mr Rennie and his party, the university funding allocations for 2025- 26, which institutions will receive sight of in the next 10 days or so from the Scottish Funding Council, will show an uplift in teaching price.”
“To ask the Scottish Government what practical steps it is taking to review the funding model for Scottish universities, in light of recent reports that the number of international students enrolled at Scottish universities fell by more than 10 per cent between 2023 and 2024. (S6T-02448) The Minister for Higher and Further Education; and Minister for Veterans (Graeme Dey): The drop in international student numbers that was revealed last week did not come as a surprise to institutions, as they had already felt the impact of it. Although the specific numbers crystallised the scale of the issue, they did not introduce a new dimension. We were already alive to the issue. For the past year, the Scottish Government and the sector have been working closely on international promotional activity that is aimed at mitigating the situation.”
“Rail Travel (Companions of Blind Persons National Entitlement Card Holders) 2.”
“I am delighted that the cabinet secretary is coming to Newburgh on the banks of the Tay. It is a beautiful setting, and the only thing missing is a train station. Therefore, I hope that she agrees positively to the recommendation; indeed, the community is behind it. Given that the option has been considered as part of the budget process, will she give special consideration to having a station at Newburgh and be open to making it happen? Fiona Hyslop: I recognise Willie Rennie’s enthusiasm for and long-time support of a station at Newburgh as the constituency MSP. I will not second guess what recommendations will be made to me, but I look forward to a visit to the most beautiful part of Fife—in his consideration, I suspect; I see from other members that there might be competition—and I fully understand the economic, social and wider need.”
“We need to take the opportunity through the bill to ensure that those changes incentivise investment in housing, because we have seen significant detriment in recent years. There has been a 12 per cent decrease in starts for housing in all sectors and a 10 per cent decrease in completions. That is a terrible record, and we need to fix it. The Deputy Presiding Officer: Thank you, Mr Rennie. We move to the open debate. 16:25”
“The root of the problem is the lack of investment. I disagree with Meghan Gallacher on one point. She says that the bill is not driving any kind of investment, but I think that the bill and Government policy probably are driving investment simply by removing many of the damaging policies that the Government introduced in previous years—it has neutered those—and because the Government is considering bringing in exemptions around build-to-rent housing and mid-market rents that were not there before. Therefore, the bill represents progress, but only through the removal of the barriers that the Government had put up in the first place. To some degree—[Interruption.] I am trying to be generous. To some degree there is progress. I am hunting for some credit to give to the minister.”