Gareth Thomas
MP for Harrow West · Labour (Co-op) · United Kingdom
“Local councils such as Harrow need to invest more in youth facilities that divert young people away from crime. Some of the CCTV projects in my constituency that Harrow council has turned down—in Wealdstone, south Harrow and central Harrow—should get funding.”
“I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Pendle and Clitheroe (Jonathan Hinder) on securing the debate and on the way in which he approached the subject. I join him and my hon.”
“I also want to suggest that the Metropolitan police does not get recognition across the whole of the UK for its hugely important work in tackling national and international crime, and that perhaps more recognition of that is required in the funding formula.”
“In particular, in Harrow, we recently saw enforcement teams contracted out to an organisation called Kingdom. The responsibility for that contract was with Harrow council. There was widespread criticism of the way some of the staff employed by Kingdom tried to levy fines on a number of young people in south Harrow, in my constituency.”
“One way we can further support the Metropolitan police is by allowing it to keep more of the proceeds from successful operations, such as recovering stolen funds hidden in bitcoin assets. I congratulate my hon.”
“Mayor of London Sadiq Khan has done a huge amount to try to redirect funding from other parts of his budget to minimise the impact of that cut.”
The complete record
Every one of 7,011 lines we hold for Gareth Thomas, in date order, each linked to its source. Free to read, in full, without an account. Page 11 of 141.
“We continue to support and encourage the chair of the Post Office, Nigel Railton, to shift the focus of the Post Office away from headquarters and towards postmasters. The Post Office, with our support, is reviewing its costs, as its financial position continues to be challenging. We are working with the senior leadership at the Post Office on future opportunities, beginning with banking, so that the company can increase its product offers and commercial revenue going forward. The Post Office has set up a new consultative council that will work with senior management on how these new plans are taken forward. It is a first, but none the less important step to change the culture of the Post Office. Building a sustainable future for the Post Office is imperative. It has had many false new starts.”
“I gently say to the right hon. Gentleman that we are where we are, and it is important that we move forward. I will come to the question of directly managed branches in a second. To ensure that we are planning properly for the future, we will publish a Green Paper before the summer to seek the public’s views, insights and experiences to help shape the future of the Post Office. In the meantime, we are taking steps to continue to support the network. Along with the annual £50 million subsidy, we have provided a further £37.5 million to support the Post Office network next year. Our thinking on the future of the post office will also be influenced by Sir Wyn Williams’s conclusions.”
“The Government are strongly committed to ensuring the long-term sustainability of the Post Office. It is a national asset that provides an invaluable public service in all our constituencies. There are certainly challenges ahead, but we continue to work with the Post Office to ensure that it is fit for the future. We always welcome views on the network. I thank those hon. Members who secured the debate and all other hon. Members for their contributions.”
“Funnily enough, I am aware of that statistic; my hon. Friend makes his point powerfully. We were clear in our manifesto that that we would seek to strengthen the Post Office network in consultation with postmasters, trade unions and customers, and that remains very much our ambition. That is one of the reasons why we are working closely with the Post Office in providing funding to support the replacement of the Horizon computer system. The Post Office’s future lies particularly in cash and banking. With the right support from the financial services industry and engagement with groups such as Cash Access UK, there is clearly more that the Post Office could offer on the high street through banking hubs and the Post Office network. We are beginning to work with the Post Office to improve its banking offer on the high street.”
“We have announced our intention to consult more broadly on what further measures we can bring in to tackle the problems around late payment, but this SI stands alone as a useful measure, and I commend it to the Committee.”
“Those metrics will help to provide smaller firms with better information about a large business’s retention payment practices, and by doing so, incentivise large businesses to improve those practices. In conclusion, this is a measure that will provide small firms in the construction supply chain with information that will enable them to take decisions about entering into contracts and to understand how to ensure that retentions owed to them are paid. It will also create a clear incentive for firms to improve their payment performance in relation in relation to retentions. The Government are looking at the whole practice of late payment in in general terms.”
“Details would also be required on whether there is a contract value under which no retention clause is included, and that value, whether there is a standard rate of retention applied and that rate, whether there is a practice of using retention clauses that is no more onerous than those that businesses upstream are subject to, and whether there is a description on the process for the release of the retentions that are held. Two specific metrics will also be required: the percentage ratio of the amount of retention that is withheld from the company by its clients, which the company holds back from its suppliers, and the percentage ratio of the amount of retention that the company withheld from the total value of payments made to suppliers as a proportion of the amount paid to suppliers during the reporting period.”
“In the first instance, reporting will require a statement on whether the company's payment practices and policies include or do not include retention clause. Where a company makes a statement that retention clauses are included in its construction contracts, further information must be submitted. Details will be required on whether retention clauses are included in all its construction contracts, whether the company’s standard payment terms include retention clauses, or whether retention clauses are used only in specific circumstances, which it would need to describe.”
“There has been an attempt to deal with this issue. Not everything the previous Government did was entirely wrong. This is one of those rare exceptions where the Government recognised that there was a problem in this space and were intending to introduce this regulation until the general election was called. Recognising the good intent behind this particular proposal, we have sought to lay it before the House again, and this is the result. What is not in the existing regulations, as they stand at the moment, is the requirement for specific reporting relating to retentions that are held under construction contracts, and this SI seeks to put that right. It will bring greater transparency in relation to the retention policies, practices, and performance of larger businesses that have construction contracts.”
“Holding what is known as retention money is a long established construction contractual practice intended to provide security against defective work or the insolvency of the subcontractor supplier. However, it can operate unfairly against smaller suppliers who can feel unable to question or to challenge how the practice is applied. A retention clause allows the employer to deduct and retain a proportion of the value of the contract otherwise owed to the supplier until particular contractual conditions are met. Typically, 3% to 5% is held over the duration of the project and for a period post completion. The use of retention clauses in construction contracts can be particularly problematic to the supply chain due to late, partial or non-payment of retentions, or these being permanently lost through upstream insolvencies.”
“I beg to move, That the Committee has considered the draft Reporting on Payment Practices and Performance (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2024. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms McVey. The regulations were laid in draft before the House on 7 October 2024. By way of introduction, let me explain that the regulations seek to amend the Reporting on Payment Practices and Performance Regulations 2017 and the Limited Liability Partnerships (Reporting on Payment Practices and Performance) Regulations 2017. Let me give a bit of context to the issue. Prompt and fair payment has long been an issue in the construction sector and particularly affects small businesses in the supply chain.”
“We are getting ready to consult on a package of further legislative measures around payment practices. We are not quite ready to do it now, so I cannot tell the House that, but we will bring forward proposals shortly, and obviously the House will be informed at the appropriate time. We recognise this is a huge issue for small businesses. It has led, in many cases, to small businesses going bust and is a huge waste of time in terms of the productivity of small businesses having to chase late payments. I commend the SI to the Committee. Question put and agreed to.”
“Our sense is that it will work, that creating incentives has been shown to work to date. Build UK, which is a fairly representative organisation for the construction industry, has benchmarked construction businesses on their payment performance since 2018. Its work shows a significant improvement in terms of payment, and we hope a similar level of improvement will be achieved by the requirements in this SI. Under the regulations, we have the opportunity to come back if loopholes are spotted, and we will obviously keep that in mind and see how things develop. More broadly speaking, the second question from the hon. Member for St Albans alluded to what else we are doing in the late payment space—a question that was touched on also by the hon. Member for West Worcestershire.”
“Obviously, I very much hope we do not get to that to that stage, and that firms do respond appropriately to the correspondence from my officials to those firms who have not currently complied. I cannot give the hon. Member for West Worcestershire a specific breakdown of which sector of the construction industry were opposed to this regulation. All I would say is that there was a very strong balance in the consultation responses that were presented to the last Government, as I understand it, in favour of the approach that we are taking now. On that basis, and as a result of conversations we have had since we got into government, we believe the measures are appropriate. That comes on perhaps to one of the issues that the hon. Member for St Albans raised about what happens if this does not lead to the to the outcomes that we want.”
“I am grateful to the hon. Members for West Worcestershire and for St Albans for their questions. On the question of the prosecution of firms, as I think I alluded to in my opening remarks, regulations on reporting did come into force back in 2017. To be blunt and to be candid in this forum, there has not been much enforcement of those regulations. We are seeking to put that right, and have written to over 500 firms who have not been complying with those regulations. There has not been a prosecution as yet, because we are still within the period that we want to give firms the chance to comply. If there is a refusal to comply, prosecution can take place, with potentially unlimited fines for non-compliance.”
“Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 24 January 2025, and to be printed (Bill 153).”
“Together, we hope these steps will enable the Post Office to move forward, working better with its postmasters and better serving the needs of its customers. This Government are attempting to fix the foundations, deal with the injustices of the past, and invest in a different future for the Post Office so that it can sit at the heart of our communities as a trusted institution once more. I commend this statement to the House.”
“The interim chair of the Post Office, Nigel Railton, is rightly shifting the focus of the business from headquarters to postmasters; the Post Office is also reviewing its costs, as its financial position continues to be challenging. He has announced ambitions for a new deal for postmasters, and I am pleased that the Post Office is going to make an immediate one-off payment to postmasters to increase their remuneration, in recognition of the pressures that postmasters face. That payment is expected to be delivered this month. We are working with the senior leadership of the Post Office on future opportunities, beginning with banking, so that the company can increase its product offers and commercial revenue and reduce its costs in communities across the UK.”
“We will therefore take time to consult and consider in particular the view of the Williams inquiry before reaching a conclusion. We intend to give a full response within six months of the publication of the Williams inquiry report. For too long, decisions about the future of the Post Office have been put off. That neglect has allowed significant issues at the heart of the company to grow and take root. As previously set out, we will publish a Green Paper in the first half of next year to seek the public’s views, insights and experiences to help shape the future of the Post Office. In the meantime, we are taking steps to continue to support the post office network and the important services it provides. I can announce that we are providing a further £37.5 million to subsidise the post office network this year.”
“I am also thankful to the Horizon compensation advisory board for the report that it published earlier this year. In case Members are not aware, the board is recommending that a new independent body be set up to deliver any future redress schemes on behalf of the Government, as well as to act in a role similar to that of an ombudsman. The goal is, of course, to reduce the chances of future scandals—or at least to expose them more quickly. The Government welcome those recommendations. Any recommendation that might prevent harm, or at least help the Government be more responsive to it, is worthy of serious consideration. The potential impact of such a body would be wide ranging, with potential implications for existing redress schemes in the NHS, which need to be considered alongside other issues.”
“The Government will develop our proposals through engagement with postmasters and other key stakeholders, such as the Horizon compensation advisory board and legal experts. Over the coming months, we want to determine the scope of the financial redress and the eligibility criteria, so that we can bring both redress and closure to the impacted postmasters and their families. I expect to provide a further update to the House on that matter in the spring. Next year, we also expect to receive Sir Wyn Williams’s report. The Post Office Horizon IT inquiry has reviewed the oral evidence that was submitted to it over the course of the last two years. I am thankful to Sir Wyn Williams for his excellent chairing of the inquiry, which closed yesterday.”
“Some postmasters have told us that, like victims of the Horizon scandal, they were shunned by their local communities—by their customers, friends and neighbours. I speak on behalf of the whole Government in expressing how sorry I am for what those postmasters and their families have gone through. For that and all they were forced to endure, they deserve not just redress but the restoration of their good names. Uncovering exactly what happened in each case will be a challenging exercise given the passage of time and the lack of records and evidence. However, we are keen to apply the lessons that we have learned from previous redress schemes, and to take account of the needs of this group of victims.”
“We are carefully considering what intervention we may take. Thanks to a small group of postmasters and their families coming forward this year, as well as to parliamentarians including Lord Beamish, we now know that issues at the Post Office went beyond Horizon, and that some postmasters may have been affected by earlier systems such as Capture. The Government have responded with swift, significant action. The Kroll investigation published its report into Capture on 30 September, with a further addendum made on 18 October. From that report we have concluded that there are postmasters who may have fallen victim to flaws in Capture software. Most of us will not be able to comprehend fully what it was like to be accused of mistakes never made, ill intent never harboured and crimes never committed.”
“The Horizon compensation advisory board recommended the establishment of an appeals process for the Horizon shortfall scheme that is independent of the Post Office and Government, and we accepted that recommendation in September. We are in the process of assembling a team of independent external lawyers to help deliver the appeals process. We expect that contract to be awarded in January. I will be able to provide a further update on the appeals process early in the new year. There are still concerns about the responsibility of the Post Office to deliver the Horizon shortfall scheme and the overturned convictions scheme. The Government are considering the merits of my Department taking over that responsibility, but the benefits of such a move must clearly outweigh the potential disruption.”
“On more complex cases, notably in the group litigation order and the Horizon convictions redress scheme, for which my department is, and should be seen to be, directly responsible, we have agreed a new target for 90% of challenge cases in the GLO and HCRS to receive a substantive response within 40 days. We have moved in additional staff, and Sir Gary Hickinbottom, who is already assisting us with the overturned conviction cases, has been appointed chair of the independent panel for the HCRS. We are looking again at the arguments for providing additional redress to postmaster family members who were affected by the scandal, and to the employees of postmasters. I will report back to the House on that in due course.”
“I am conscious that for the victims of the Horizon scandal, justice delayed is justice denied, and that our responsibility in Government is to work to make the compensation process as effective as possible. That is why we have asked the Post Office to write to over 16,000 former postmasters, encouraging them to come forward if they believe they have a genuine claim. I can confirm those letters have been sent. We want to ensure that every postmaster who is eligible for redress under the Horizon shortfall scheme has the opportunity to apply for it.”
“Of that amount, £79 million has been paid to 232 people from the Horizon convictions redress scheme, which we set up in July. As of 29 November, the Ministry of Justice had notified more than 520 people in England and Wales that their convictions have been quashed by the Post Office (Horizon System) Offences Act 2024. The relevant justice authorities in Scotland and Northern Ireland are also continuing to notify individuals within their jurisdictions. While the progress we have made is positive, we know there are still complex cases to resolve, and we need to speed up other parts of the redress process. Many postmasters are still yet to be compensated or have their cases reconsidered.”
“With your permission, Madam Deputy Speaker, I wish to provide an update to the House about the Government’s Post Office redress schemes and funding. No one in this House—no one in this country—will have failed to be moved by the plight of postmasters caught up in the Horizon scandal. The fact that they suffered so much over so many years is both unconscionable and inexcusable. The Government are determined to do right by them and to learn from the mistakes of the past. That is why, before the election in July, we promised to ensure swift and fair redress for postmasters affected by the Horizon scandal and, in the past five months, we have made significant progress. To date, compensation has more than doubled since the Government took office, with £499 million paid to 3,300 victims.”
“Lastly, on the network subsidy uplift, the shadow Secretary of State will understand that the money is just for this year. Spending review discussions are taking place across Government, and the Post Office is an active part of those discussions.”
“I am sure that he will opine on Fujitsu, and we will respond accordingly. On the Horizon convictions redress scheme, the then Minister of State at the Ministry of Justice, my right hon. Friend the Member for Swindon South (Heidi Alexander), and I had the pleasure of appearing before the Business and Trade Committee, chaired by my right hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham Hodge Hill and Solihull North (Liam Byrne), to update it on progress in overturning the convictions following the legislation last summer. She committed the Ministry to completing its work of assessing the cases by the end of January, and I understand that it still intends to do so. We have already paid out some £79 million as part of our responsibilities to provide redress to those whose convictions were overturned.”
“We will consult sub-postmasters and the Horizon compensation advisory board. As I have said, I will bring forward an update on where we have got to by next spring. On the 16,000 letters that the Post Office has sent out, I can confirm that they have gone out very recently—the shadow Secretary of State will forgive me if I do not have the exact dates. He rightly aired again the concern about the responsibility of Fujitsu, which is felt across the House. I am sure that he will recognise that we need to wait for Sir Wyn Williams’s inquiry to report, to give us a better understanding of the scale of Fujitsu’s responsibilities and, therefore, its potential liabilities. We have said that we will respond to the inquiry’s recommendations at pace, and certainly within six months.”
“We have instructed the Post Office to work at speed to review what evidence it can provide to the CCRC to help it make decisions on the safety of those convictions. Similarly, the Scottish Criminal Cases Review Commission is looking at a number of cases, and we have similarly instructed the Post Office to co-operate with it as quickly as it can. On Capture redress, yesterday we met sub-postmasters who have campaigned on Capture, and indeed Lord Beamish, to update them on the steps we will take. We will work at pace. As I said in my statement, we face a significant challenge with the amount of evidence available. For example, no central record has as yet been found of the number of Capture users or of who they were. We are nevertheless going to be working to design a redress scheme.”
“I am grateful to the shadow Secretary of State for his willingness to work with us collaboratively on providing redress not only to the victims of the Horizon scandal, but to the victims of the Capture software issues. The shadow Secretary of State referenced the Kroll report. As he and, I suspect, other Members of the House who have followed this issue closely will be aware, Kroll did not take a specific view on convictions. We are aware that a small number of sub-postmasters—those who believed they were victims of using the Capture software, given the shortfalls it generated and the way they were treated by the Post Office as a result—have referred their claims to the Criminal Cases Review Commission.”
“We have instructed the Post Office to review all its records—we know it has some records available for the 1991 to 1999 period—and to get what information it does have to those two bodies, so that they can opine as quickly as is feasible on the safety of those convictions. It is right that that is the first step we take. We will wait to see the judgment. In the meantime, we will get on with designing a redress scheme for all those who were not convicted but who suffered as a result of the Capture software.”
“I am grateful to my right hon. Friend that the first report of his Committee has looked at the Post Office redress schemes. He will know that progress has been made, but as I alluded to in my opening statement, we recognise that there is still significantly more to do, particularly with the complex cases. Specifically on convictions and Capture, I have to tell the House that at this stage we do not know how many people were convicted as a result of the Capture software. We are aware of a small number of cases. As I have said, a number of cases are with the Criminal Cases Review Commission and the Scottish Criminal Cases Review Commission.”
“He will forgive me if I wait at this stage for Sir Wyn Williams’s recommendations. We will then look at those recommendations and come to the House with the future steps we intend to take.”
“I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his opening remarks. In particular, I share his anger, and that of the whole House, at how sub-postmasters were treated, whether as victims of the Horizon scandal or of the Capture software issues, which was clearly appalling. We must do everything we can to ensure that can never be repeated. He will understand that yesterday was the last day of hearings in Sir Wyn Williams’s inquiry. Sir Wyn Williams has said that he will publish his conclusions and recommendations within months. The Government will then work at pace to consider his recommendations and to publish our response within six months of that date. The specific ideas that the hon. Gentleman has referenced in that context will, I am sure, be part of the Government’s deliberations.”
“I would be happy to meet my hon. Friend. I recognise that post offices are a fundamental part of every one of our communities in the UK. That is one of the reasons why the Government have been clear that we adhere to and support the commitment on various access requirements to ensure that every community has good access to post office facilities. On directly managed branches, she will know that no decision on the future of all those branches, or indeed any individual branch, has been taken. I recognise that she has particular concerns about the branch in Kennington, and I am happy to meet her to discuss that.”
“I am certainly happy to echo the right hon. Member’s congratulations to the noble Lord Beamish and to emphasise again my appreciation for his work on championing the concerns of those who are victims of the Capture software. He is one of those whom we will continue to work with going forward as we put together redress and think about these issues more generally. Specifically on prosecutions, the right hon. Member may be aware that the Metropolitan police has confirmed that it has established a unit and is looking at a number of issues to do with how the Post Office operated. He will understand that, quite rightly, Ministers are not involved in those decisions, but the information that I have set out is publicly available. We will obviously all have to wait to see what happens in that regard.”
“I thank my hon. Friend for his question. Specifically on what further action we can take to speed up the process, one of the reasons why we introduced a fixed-sum payment of £75,000 for those whose claims had been accepted as part of the Horizon shortfall scheme was deliberately to offer an option of faster redress for victims. On the question of automation, we encouraged Nigel Railton and the senior leadership at the Post Office to look at what further steps they can take to speed up the consideration of claims under the Horizon shortfall scheme, where there is particular pressure given the numbers that are still coming forward. I welcome the fact that they are coming forward, but we need faster action to get through them and to support all those whose claims are being accepted to get redress under the Horizon shortfall scheme.”
“With the Post Office, we are looking at what more we can do to speed up the assessment of those claims. The fixed sum payment that we announced in September of some £75,000, which sub-postmasters can choose to accept in full and final settlement of their claim, has been welcomed and accepted by a significant number of sub-postmasters. That is helping to speed up redress under the Horizon shortfall scheme. I accept that there is more to do, and we are looking at what else we can do in that regard.”
“If the hon. Gentleman writes to me with the details of that case, I will happily look at where it is at. The Horizon shortfall scheme has been run by the Post Office for some time. Initially, it was closed and then it was reopened under pressure. All those who came forward in the initial tranche of claims have had them assessed and offers have been made. The majority of the compensation that was offered has been paid out. When the scheme was reopened, there was a substantial increase in the numbers of people applying for redress. Indeed, we are still seeing people coming forward now and we would expect, as a result of all the letters that we have asked the Post Office to send out to sub-postmasters who might have a claim, that there will be further substantial claims under the Horizon shortfall scheme.”
“I have looked at this issue, which came up at the Select Committee. We write out to ask for further information in order to be able to justify the payment of more compensation, not to query the information that has been provided by sub-postmasters to date. To try to provide reassurance on that point, we are making that explicit in the letters that we send out to sub-postmasters. We are anxious to reduce the stress and concern and, essentially, the trauma that people have gone through already. We do not want that process to be repeated, if at all possible, during the compensation process. Asking for more information is designed to enable us to offer more and fairer compensation to the individuals concerned.”
“The hon. Gentleman makes a perfectly reasonable point—it is something I feel acutely. I have met a number of the sub-postmasters who used the Capture software and were treated very badly as a result by the Post Office, so I am acutely conscious of our collective responsibility to those individuals and their families. Some of the sub-postmasters who used Capture software have already passed away, which only underlines the points he and I have made. I can assure the House that we will work at pace. We are working with the Post Office, and have asked the organisation to go through its records so that we can identify, inasmuch as we can, how many people were potentially victims of Capture. We are also supporting the work of the Criminal Cases Review Commission in looking at whether convictions are safe.”
“I commend my hon. Friend for championing the cause of the family of a sub-postmaster in his constituency. He will forgive me if I do not know the exact compensation scheme that his constituent applied to. However, in general, independent elements are built into each of the compensation schemes to try to ensure that as fair a sum of redress as possible is offered. On the Horizon shortfall scheme in particular, in September we committed to setting up an independent appeals process, and I hope to have more information for the House early next year. We are determined to establish that process to provide a further independent element for that particular scheme.”
“I would be very happy to receive further information from the hon. Lady, and I will endeavour to reply to her as quickly as I can. I recognise that there are concerns about the fairness of the compensation process. There are complex cases that are still to be settled. We are working at pace to ensure, where we can, that those cases are settled, particularly with regard to the GLO scheme. We have made it clear that for all the remaining cases that are with us by Christmas, we will be able to get substantial redress paid out to those individuals by the end of March. As I say, if she writes to me I will happily look at her letter.”
“Yes. My hon. Friend raises a very good point. The Ministry of Justice has made clear its concern about this issue and is set to bring forward a consultation document early in the new year, I believe, to address exactly that concern.”
“Gentleman’s point. It is why we continue to look, as much as we can, at what further efforts we can take to speed the delivery of compensation.”
“I understand completely the frustration of sub-postmasters who have waited so long to get redress and have their cases heard. The right hon. Gentleman will understand that there are four Horizon scandal compensation schemes. In the case of the convictions that were overturned by this House this year, the fourth compensation scheme, the Horizon convictions redress scheme, was set up on 30 July and has begun paying out significant sums of money to sub-postmasters who have had their convictions overturned—some £79 million, as of the end of November. As I said earlier, the MOJ has sought to contact all individuals who had their convictions overturned as a result of that legislation. It has said that it will complete its work by the end of January and I understand that it is on course to do so, but I am acutely aware of the right hon.”
“I am sure I speak for the whole House when I say that I wish the experience that my hon. Friend has described was just an isolated example, but sadly there have been far too many similar examples of what sub-postmasters have been through. We absolutely must get more speed into the compensation process, and we are very much working on that, but we will also look carefully at the recommendations of the Sir Wyn Williams inquiry when they are published next year. His work will be crucial in helping to ensure that nothing like this ever happens again. Bill Presented Public Procurement (British Goods and Services) Bill Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57) Sarah Champion presented a Bill to make provision about public procurement in respect of British goods and services; and for connected purposes.”