Gareth Thomas
MP for Harrow West · Labour (Co-op) · United Kingdom
“Local councils such as Harrow need to invest more in youth facilities that divert young people away from crime. Some of the CCTV projects in my constituency that Harrow council has turned down—in Wealdstone, south Harrow and central Harrow—should get funding.”
“I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Pendle and Clitheroe (Jonathan Hinder) on securing the debate and on the way in which he approached the subject. I join him and my hon.”
“I also want to suggest that the Metropolitan police does not get recognition across the whole of the UK for its hugely important work in tackling national and international crime, and that perhaps more recognition of that is required in the funding formula.”
“In particular, in Harrow, we recently saw enforcement teams contracted out to an organisation called Kingdom. The responsibility for that contract was with Harrow council. There was widespread criticism of the way some of the staff employed by Kingdom tried to levy fines on a number of young people in south Harrow, in my constituency.”
“One way we can further support the Metropolitan police is by allowing it to keep more of the proceeds from successful operations, such as recovering stolen funds hidden in bitcoin assets. I congratulate my hon.”
“Mayor of London Sadiq Khan has done a huge amount to try to redirect funding from other parts of his budget to minimise the impact of that cut.”
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“At the heart of the debate is the question of whether there will be quite the economic imperative that the hon. Gentleman and the hon. Member for North Swindon suggest. I hope that there will be such an imperative, but the evidence from the witnesses was not hugely encouraging on that point, as I set out when I referred to the contribution of the chair of the Federation of Small Businesses. The hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton made a point about resets, but we do not know how often they will take place. I gently suggest to him that it might be better to think about retaining the levy arrangement, so that his authority and mine can benefit from some of that income a little more quickly.”
“My hon. Friend is right. As he knows, I have expressed concern about the distribution between tiers of authorities and how redistribution mechanisms would work in practice without a levy, but we are none the wiser about redistribution in practice, because the Minister has not been able to tell us about it. Perhaps you, Sir David, can use your influence with him to elicit the summary that has been promised for some time in the future, we know not exactly when. We are told it will be soon-ish, but how long that is, we do not yet know. Perhaps some of the 400-plus responses to the consultation document that the Department produced last year will give us some sense of how the levy will work.”
“I do not get the sense that he cares about anybody else’s local authority—not even those of Members on his side. One would have thought that he might therefore be sympathetic to our concern that on the face of it, Hillingdon’s council will no longer have to make a significant contribution to the redistribution to others.”
“To return briefly to the levy, Maidenhead pays 50% of its future business rates growth into the levy, but frankly does not have to do much to benefit from economic growth because of its location. If Maidenhead does not serve as a warning to Conservative Members, perhaps the London Borough of Hillingdon will. It, too, will benefit hugely from the construction of a third runway, and will not have to do much to promote economic growth—it will not need to, because of the strategic decision that we have taken. Hillingdon’s council has a levy rate of 50%. The hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton has used almost all of his interventions in Committee so far to bash London authorities and demand that spending power be redistributed away from London to North Yorkshire.”
“I bow to no one in my admiration of the Chair of the Communities and Local Government Committee. I am glad that the hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton mentioned the Select Committee report, because it said some interesting things about the potential volatility of the business rates income and the need for an effective safety net. One wonders how that will work in practice without the levy arrangement that we are discussing. My hon. Friend the Member for Oldham West and Royton is itching to get into the debate on the safety net, and I will not stand in his way when we come to it, but I hope to catch your eye after he has spoken, Sir David, to explore the concerns of the Select Committee a little more.”
“As you can see, Sir David, the hon. Gentleman is a passionate advocate for redistribution away from London. We have tried to convince him to get underneath the detail of the scale of need in London, but clearly we have been unsuccessful today. A little progress is needed. I have made the point that I wanted to make. I look forward to the Minister’s answer, and the response of my hon. Friend the Member for Oldham West and Royton.”
“My hon. Friend’s point is about the lack of evidence for the great assertions by the hon. Members for Thirsk and Malton and for North Swindon, never mind the Minister, that economic incentives will flow afresh. One would have thought that Ministers would have had some sort of economic impact analysis to offer, but there is no Green Paper, no White Paper and no sign of any evidence that this will be the new Jerusalem we have been promised.”
“My hon. Friend will remember the intervention from the hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton, in which he prayed in aid the Communities and Local Government Committee report in defence of his case. Has my hon. Friend noted at paragraph 56 of that report the concern of Sharon Gregory, who said that Cambridgeshire and Northamptonshire county councils “have some very big businesses that represent a large proportion of the business rates base, and there are significant risks around those businesses leaving or failing”? Surely that underlines his concern on the safety net.”
“On that point, does my hon. Friend want to try to stimulate the interest of the hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton in Stockton-on-Tees Borough Council and its concerns about the safety net? He was on the Select Committee when it gave evidence. It said: “The safety net is set too low with local authorities being required to accommodate very significant reductions in income before triggering it. Based on the current system, Stockton would need to lose approximately £5 million in one year before it is activated”. Does that not underline my hon. Friend’s concern?”
“It is interesting that the Minister should stand up and pray in his defence the pilot authorities and the way in which they are implementing the safety net scheme, if indeed they are doing so. We could have used that information to inform our contributions, but sadly the Minister is not intending to publish any details of how those pilot authority schemes are going to work until after this Committee has concluded its deliberations.”
“That is the first bit of clarity about how the pilots are working—I was going to ask what the safety net was in context. I simply praise the Minister for giving just a tiny fraction of information about how the pilots are going to work. It would be nice to have the rest of the information before the end of the Committee.”
“Is this not an example of the nanny state at its very worst, and of the Minister-knows-best mentality which, despite all these pretentions of great commitments to localism, seems to run through the heart of this Bill, with its 56 new powers over local authorities?”
“I repeat the perfectly reasonable question from my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton South West. Can the Minister refer to one example where a local authority has been excluded?”
“Nevertheless, it will perhaps be interesting to hear the Minister take this opportunity to acknowledge the scale of the funding gap that the LGA has identified and praise local authorities such as Harrow Council for the work it has done to offer more efficient services.”
“What Conservative councils will take from Surrey’s experience, if indeed the cheque does eventually arrive, is that all they need to do is threaten big council tax increases and the Government will bend to their will. If at some future point my friend Robert Evans were to become the leader of Surrey County Council—I suspect that prospect is not too far off—and propose a 15% council tax referendum, it would be seized on by the Minister, and various nonsense about the profligacy of Labour councils would be repeated ad infinitum on the Floor of the House and in Committees left, right and centre. Surrey County Council has exposed the weakness of Ministers’ arguments around the threshold.”
“If there ever was a decision by a county council that was well-timed, it is surely the decision of Surrey County Council today not to go ahead with its 15% referendum. The council leader apparently reported to his fellow councillors that he has had lengthy conversations with the Government and has received various reassurances—he would not say what those were, funnily enough. As a result, he has recommended to his council that the referendum should not go ahead, which it has accepted. I suspect that the tireless campaigning of my friend Robert Evans, the one Labour councillor in Surrey, has intimidated the Conservative leader into backing down. If that is not the case, one has to praise the political skill of the leader of Surrey County Council—if the cheque is in the post to him, as it sounds as though it is—for his act of brinkmanship.”
“It has worked with organisations such as IBM on new social care apps that have dramatically improved the quality of the marketplace, to use the language of Conservative Members, for private social care providers at a local level. They are commercialising the app that they have developed and generating significant revenues for the local authority. The product they have offered is innovative, increases efficiency and leads to a better quality of service. Sadly, we do not hear enough examples like that. It is in that spirit that I move amendment 20. Much has been made of the £5.8 billion funding gap that the LGA says will be present by 2020. Again, that is a further demonstration of the need for and demand on local authority services. Surely that should be taken into account.”
“Amendment 20 is merely an attempt to make clear, not only to Ministers but to those who watch and read our proceedings, that there is a more complex picture about the scale of the challenges facing local government that should be taken into account, whereby those residents make an assessment as to whether the council tax ask they are expected to pay—if, indeed, it goes above the threshold—is excessive or not. Surely there is a case for recognition of some assessment of need. Surely there is also for recognition of the scale of efficiency savings that councils have sought down the years—they ought to be taken into account. My council, Harrow, has led the way in seeking to become a commercial council.”
“It is inspired in part by the example of Surrey County Council and, perhaps surprisingly, some words of wisdom from the previous Prime Minister, who famously described local government as “officially the most efficient part of the public sector.” That is one of the few things he said as leader of the Conservative party that I am tempted to agree with. The Conservative party has a tendency—Ministers have been doing it again today in the run-up to the housing White Paper—to blame all the ills of the world on local councils.”
“I beg to move amendment 20, in clause 4, page 6, line 41, at end insert— “(c) must include conclusions from the assessment of needs that has been carried out in respect of the local authority area; and (d) must include details of efficiency savings made by the local authority.” This amendment would require the report published by the Secretary of State on the set of principles to include conclusions from an assessment of needs carried out for the local authority area and details of efficiency savings undertaken by the local authority. It is a great pleasure to move this probing amendment.”
“I made clear that this was a probing amendment. The Minister could have given some sense to local government that he understood the scale of funding difficulties it faces by 2020. He chose not to. He could have praised councils such as Harrow that have led the way in terms of a more efficient offer, but he chose not to. I do not intend to make a thing of it. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.”
“I beg to move amendment 21, in clause 4, page 6, line 45, at end insert— “(1C) A report under this section must be approved by a resolution of the House of Commons.” This amendment would require any report on the principles relating to the tax excessive threshold, and therefore principles around circumstances in which a referendum must be held, to be approved by the House of Commons.”
“Let me be brief, because we have had quite a trip around the issue of scrutiny of local government finance. Amendments 21 and 22 simply provide the House of Commons with the opportunity to scrutinise local authority finance. The Minister, as we know, does not want the scrutiny of a local government finance settlement, so perhaps he and Government Members might be willing to support the idea that new council tax excessive thresholds should have to be approved by the House of Commons. That is the spirit of the amendments.”
“I did not suggest that I might withdraw the amendment, although I sought to be brief, as we have already had a trip around the issues. The Minister’s further reassurance that he will consult local authorities is welcome, but he should have to consult the House of Commons as well. In that spirit, I intend to ask the Committee to divide on the amendment. Question put, That the amendment be made.”
“Has the Minister been privy to any conversations within the Department for Communities and Local Government, or across Whitehall more generally, about Surrey County Council’s proposed 15% referendum, and what the Government might have said to the leader of Surrey County Council to persuade him not to go ahead with that referendum?”
“Ministers have given no indication of the cost in future years, but those outside Whitehall and this place who know their local authority finances have calculated that over 10 years, as a result of the decision, there could be a £3.3 billion windfall for the business community and a £3.3 billion loss to the people of England who want good services to be provided.”
“In passing, I thank the Minister for his praise for the campaigning efforts of Robert Evans, and his support for Mr Evans’s re-election campaign. I do not intend to encourage the Committee to object to the clause standing part of the Bill, but I want to mention some of the unintended consequences of the former Chancellor’s suggestion that in 2021, the retail prices index be replaced by the consumer prices index when it comes to uprating business rates. As we have said in earlier debates, that will potentially cost local councils some £370 million in 2020-21 alone.”
“I say gently that it makes even more of a case for some sort of regular opportunity to scrutinise local government finance on the Floor of the House, so that measures that may be good for one part of the country do not have serious unintended consequences for other parts. It is in that spirit that I took this opportunity to raise concerns about clause 5.”
“I asked the Local Government Association what local authority services £370 million might buy. The association suggested that I look at the universal infant free schools meals grant to local authorities, which is some £334 million. Councils are planning to spend some £550 million on Sure Start children’s centres, and they are spending £376 million on mental health support for over-65s. That gives some indication of the public services funding that may be lost as a result of what I suspect are the unintended, un-thought-through consequences of the former Chancellor’s decision.”
“Members for Thirsk and Malton, and for Northampton South, will have paid much attention to the evidence that Guy Ware, director of finance at London Councils, gave to the Communities and Local Government Committee. He suggested that over 20 years, the cumulative loss to local government finance—in other words, the cumulative gain to businesses that pay business rates—would be £78 billion. The Library suggests a degree of caution about using such figures so far in advance, but the point is that while businesses will benefit, which is clearly a good thing, local authority finances will take a further hit. The effect of that on the provision of public services in Harrow, North Yorkshire, Oldham or Nuneaton is surely a concern that this great House should reflect on a little further.”
“I am all for reducing the burden on business, but one does like to think that the benefit will be used for investment in future economic growth, not used to pay the rest of the tax bill or squirrelled away through some tax avoidance scheme. My purpose in speaking in the clause 5 stand part debate is to encourage the hon. Gentleman, among others, to consider the perhaps unintended consequence of the former Chancellor’s decision, which is the impact it would have on services for North Yorkshire residents and—since I appreciate that he cares a little for those in other areas—on public services throughout England. As I said, £3.3 billion could be lost over 10 years. The hon.”
“When the measure was introduced, there was some suggestion of compensation for local authorities. Will the Minister comment on that today, or does he perhaps want to write to us ahead of our next Committee sitting?”
“On a point of order, Mr Gapes. In what is a wonderful coincidence, one of my written parliamentary questions about when we can expect the publication of all the responses to the consultation document that Ministers released in July last year has been answered today by no less a figure than the Minister present himself. Helpfully, the answer tells me that there were 450 responses; less helpfully, it implies that they will be published in the fullness of time and only in summary form. Do you have any explanation, Mr Gapes, for why only a summary will be published? In the interests of full transparency, what is wrong with allowing us to see all the detail of the responses?”
“I am delighted that the hon. Gentleman has been encouraged, no doubt by the Minister and the Whip, to speak in defence of the Bill. As he will remember from Tuesday’s sitting—I think he was present—one of the witnesses, one of the voices of business, said that, because of the scale of the cuts in funding to local authorities, many of the services labelled as discretionary which help businesses have been substantially cut. Does that not underpin the concern that we on the Labour Benches have about the need for proper redistribution?”
“Before the hon. Gentleman flies away to Heathrow, may I take him back to the example that I gave this morning of Allerdale Council? Its one major town is Keswick and it is surrounded by natural barriers to growth, so it is highly unlikely that there is substantial space for the type of property-based development that I accept the Bill could encourage in some areas.”
“Does the hon. Gentleman accept that permitted development rights actually make it harder to protect existing business space, because business owners may be tempted to convert their properties?”
“The hon. Gentleman is advancing an interesting argument and I can see how, in certain circumstances, pooling might enable the benefit of a big infrastructure investment to be shared more widely. Let us come back to the third runway. That is a national piece of infrastructure that will benefit the whole country. Therefore, the pooling point is surely less applicable than that about ensuring that the business rate growth that the third runway generates can be redistributed across the country. Amendments 1 and 23 would help to achieve that; I suspect pooling would not mean that every local authority in England would benefit.”
“The hon. Gentleman makes an interesting point. I agree that councils are often better at grasping the opportunities—be they for housing or infrastructure—that come in the wake of big decisions, and there are many examples of Labour leaders having taken a similar approach, Manchester’s being a classic case. However, that is not an argument against amendments 1 and 23, or indeed amendment 2. What does he have against the substantial redistribution that the amendments would achieve?”
“I have been listening keenly to the hon. Gentleman. He was going to come to the example of the council that has a series of natural barriers to growth: the Allerdale Borough Council, which Keswick sits in. I have not heard him talk about how the Bill will generate massive new incentives for it, but as the hon. Member for Waveney is now present, perhaps he might allude to the problems facing coastal authorities, where there is an obvious natural barrier to economic growth.”
“Is there not a broader point here about the sustainability of support for council tax? The Prime Minister has made much of trying to help those who are “just about managing” with their family budgets. A 25% increase in council tax, introduced because Ministers in the Department for Communities and Local Government have no clout with the Treasury, will have a huge impact on the budgets of those whose finances are in the “just about managing” category. Does that not also play into the debate about the future of local government finance?”
“I do not know whether my hon. Friend has seen the publicity about the statement that the Association of Directors of Adult Social Services made today on its submission to the Treasury ahead of the forthcoming Budget. It makes the case, similar to the Local Government Association, that there needs to be an injection of £1 billion now to prevent the social care system from going even further into crisis. Does that not also underline the case for amendment 2? If there are problems now and we do not sort them out, they will only be greater in 2020 when this new system comes in.”
“At the risk of injecting a partisan note into the proceedings, which you know I hate to do, Mr Gapes, I wonder if my hon. Friend has had the chance to look at the 20 councils responsible for the highest number of delayed discharges from hospital, which the Prime Minister has raised concerns about. The majority of those councils are Conservative authorities. I sympathise with those authorities because I do not think that they should be under attack from Ministers when there is a huge funding crisis in social care. I wonder whether my hon. Friend has seen those figures.”
“My hon. Friend said that he wanted to go to North Swindon and I know that he will travel back to Manchester. May I encourage him to reflect a little more on the current situation? When the right hon. Member for Cities of London and Westminster (Mark Field) spoke on Second Reading, he drew attention to the fact that Westminster City Council collects the most business rates; the figure is some £1.8 billion a year and he expects it to rise to £2 billion. Without amendments 1 and 23, is there not a risk that some of the redistribution from Westminster—I do not know whether Swindon benefits from that, but Manchester and Harrow certainly do—might be lost?”
“I highlight a small vignette of the crisis. It is odd that Ministers have not addressed the additional cost for social care providers as a result of the so-called national living wage. It is a good thing, in and of itself, but care providers need funding to compensate for the rise in costs, and nothing that Ministers have had to say, including on funding pots, has addressed that. Does not that need to be addressed before the new system is introduced?”
“The principles that the Minister outlines are all wonderful—who could possibly be against them?—but there is a touch of motherhood and apple pie about them. Will the index of multiple deprivation feature highly in the categories that the Minister has in mind for influencing how the fair funding review will play out?”
“I entirely accept the Minister’s point about the needs assessment—it is entirely reasonable, in my view, that a new one be conducted—but there is a touch of mañana about his argument. He said, “The fair funding review will come in the fullness of time. Don’t worry about that. It will come in due course.” He could have submitted the Bill for prelegislative scrutiny; instead he is rushing ahead with it before any of the 450 responses have been published. Why is he so desperate to get the Bill through Parliament before we have had the chance to see the outcome of the fair funding review and a draft of the regulations?”
“I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. He often hides behind the four-year offers to local authorities when a difficult question is asked about the funding of local councils, but already the basis on which councils signed up to that four-year assessment has changed, because of the changes to the new homes bonus and the money being taken out for adult social care. I gently suggest to him that when it comes to completing jigsaws, it is helpful to have all the pieces to do so. At the moment, this Committee does not have all the pieces; we just have one third of them.”
“To pursue another running theme, is there any sense of timing for when those draft regulations might become publicly available so that local authorities, not just those on technical working groups between the Department and the LGA but local authorities in all their full glory, can see and understand what those regulations might mean for their finances?”
“The obvious place to do that would have been in the Communities and Local Government Committee, as has happened in the past for similar pieces of legislation. The only thing that would appear to be absolutely fundamental for Ministers in the Bill is the abolition of the local government finance settlement and the scope for a debate in the House of Commons on the state of local government finances. The only thing that Ministers will benefit from immediately seems to be the absence of that particular form of financing.”
“I asked for more clarity on the key principles on which the fairer funding formula will operate. It is true that I got that offer of some principles, but no clarity beyond those very basic, broadbrush principles; nor was there any clarity—or even, I am sad to say, any recognition—about the concerns facing the poorest areas in income and spending power, as opposed to wealthier areas such as Westminster, under the new system. I am concerned that we are no further forward. It was interesting to hear the Minister talk about the need to get the Bill through in order to move ahead with the other elements of the package, but as I indicated in an intervention there was nothing to stop the Minister from submitting the proposals to prelegislative scrutiny.”