Jesse Norman
MP for Hereford and South Herefordshire · Conservative · United Kingdom
“In view of the new Prime Minister’s spending priorities, it now seems highly unlikely that the ruinously expensive current plans will be put to the House before the end of this year. Seven months have already passed with no action.”
“10 North have real spending powers of its own? If the answer is yes, then this will be a new kind of cross-departmental Ministry—perhaps a territorial Ministry, like a regional Government but with no defined scope or mandate. We will need to see the legal instruments delegating Treasury authority and functions to it.”
“I rather fear that, given our longevity and at least the level of banter on the Government side of the Dispatch Box, we will be seen over time as the Morecambe and Wise, or perhaps the two Ronnies, of British politics.”
“The past few weeks have brought news of the deaths of Dolly Parton, Tim Curry and Wendell Berry. I am sure that many colleagues will share my sense of shock and sadness at the loss of those extraordinary figures, but also give great thanks for their lives. Truly, we live in a world of change.”
“10 North will not have spending power of its own, then ultimately the Treasury and the Chancellor will continue to sign off on its public spending and on any taxing matters. Decentralisation is really important, but No. 10 North will not be a means of decentralisation in this scenario; it will be just another layer of Government.”
“But we are not going to cast nasturtiums, in the words of a friend of mine, on any of this nonsense—not even on Baroness Lloyd and the hopeless Building Digital UK, who have entirely failed to address the issue of fibre broadband in neglected parts of my constituency and simply repeated the same language of incompetence and failure to me…”
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Every one of 5,414 lines we hold for Jesse Norman, in date order, each linked to its source. Free to read, in full, without an account. Page 10 of 109.
“The draft regulations are essential to improving the consumer experience of charging and driving electric vehicles in the UK, and I commend them to the Committee.”
“Charge point operators must ensure that the network of public charge points of 50 kW and above is working 99% of the time, starting one year from the date that the regulations come into effect. That will be measured as an annual average. The measure will give the public far greater confidence in the public charge point network and make it easier for the public to find a working charge point. Finally, the draft regulations will mandate that all charge point operators must run a 24/7 free-to-use telephone helpline for consumers within one year, and clearly display the details on charge points or through a separate device. Operators will be expected to resolve issues that are within their control.”
“Offers such as combining parking and charging fees will be permissible if the charging component is also displayed in pence per kilowatt-hour. Charge point operators must open and share their charge point data, make sure it is accurate and ensure it conforms to an open data standard—the open charge point interface protocol—within one of the draft regulations. Opening up charge point data will drive industry innovation, drive the development of consumer-friendly apps, and put more detailed and reliable data at consumers’ fingertips, making it easier to locate available charge points. The draft regulations will also require reliability across the public rapid charge point network.”
“Consumers will be able to pay for a charge across multiple charge points through one app or radio frequency identity—RFID—card, similar to a fuel card for petrol and diesel cars. That element is important for fleet electrification, and will enable fleet operators to centralise the billing for the charging of electric vehicles. Consumers will be able to understand how much they are paying to charge their vehicles, as pricing transparency is mandated. That will in turn empower them to find the best-value charge for their needs. The total price of a charging session must be displayed in pence per kilowatt-hour and should be clearly displayed either on the charge point or through a separate device, to make price comparison across different networks easier. Once the charging session has started, the price will not increase.”
“The draft regulations will help to ensure that electric vehicle drivers can travel confidently, knowing that they can find a fully operational charge point suitable to their needs, and can more easily pay at any charge point. To develop the regulations, my Department engaged with consumer groups, vehicle manufacturers, technical experts and the charge point industry to understand better the barriers and proposed mitigations. The statutory instrument introduces contactless payment at many new charge points. Within one year, all new public charge points with a power rating of 8 kW and above must provide contactless payment, and all existing charge points of 50 kW and above must be retrofitted. Within two years, all charge point operators must offer payment roaming at all their charge points through at least one third-party roaming provider.”
“I beg to move, That the Committee has considered the draft Public Charge Point Regulations 2023. It is an absolute delight to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Gray. A successful transition to zero-emission vehicles will require a reliable, accessible and affordable charging network across the country. More than 49,000 public charge points have already been installed. The Government and industry are continuing to work together to drive up those numbers, and members of ChargeUK, an industry organisation, has committed to doubling the number of charge points over the next 12 months and anticipates some £6 billion of investment in charging infrastructure over the next few years.”
“I welcome the hon. Member for Sefton Central to his shadow role and thank him for his cross-party support for the regulations. Let me engage with his important set of questions. The hon. Member talked about a 10-year delay in achieving 300,000 charge points. It is important to be clear that there is no such delay. The goal is to reach 300,000 by 2030, and we are well advanced in relation to that goal even at this early stage. Of course, the level of investment that we anticipate, and that has been triggered by the laying of the zero-emission vehicle mandate, will provide an important private sector impetus.”
“It is therefore already familiar with enforcing data and payment requirements on electric vehicle charge points, and so is well placed.”
“Member emphasised, the Government have decided to strike the balance so that 7 kW chargers and below are exempt from having to provide for contactless payments. Again, that is a trade-off that has to be made to achieve the faster rates of investment and installation that the hon. Member seeks. The hon. Member is right to raise the question of enforcement, which is obviously important. Regulations are nothing without enforcement. The OPSS will enforce the regulations, as he says, and it has the capacity to apply financial penalties where necessary. It is actually a very good choice of enforcement agency, because it has a strong reputation and already enforces the Alternative Fuels Infrastructure Regulations 2017 and the Electric Vehicles (Smart Charge Points) Regulations 2021, which contain provisions on charge point data and payments.”
“It is possible that there will be a very slight effect in that way, but it is also important to note that the substance of the mandate and its particular regulations for the provision of electric vehicles on the road have not changed. We would therefore expect that to drive the installation of electric vehicle chargers. The hon. Member highlights that a relatively large percentage of current charge points are not covered in the regs. Of course, a decision has had to be made as to what is the cost-effective rate at which to require retrofitting. Having done a lot of consultation with the industry, and precisely based on a desire to incentivise the maximum speed of installation, which the hon.”
“I thank the hon. Member. Of course, I think any sensible observer expects that the combined effect of the new regulations, technology and a massive amount of new investment will drive the rate of installation upwards. I cannot do any better than refer the hon. Member to the comments of the independent National Infrastructure Commission, which has said that it expects the Government to meet the target if installations continue to grow at the current rate of 30% a year, as they have in recent years. In relation to the zero-emission vehicle mandate, the hon. Member suggested that it would somehow take longer to charge because of the removal of the ban from 2030.”
“I am pleased to say that there are increasing levels of rapid charge in motorway service areas. It is useful and helpful that Tesla has opened up all its new charge points to all other manufacturers, so that the widest possible provision will be available there and elsewhere. Question put and agreed to .”
“The hon. Member mentioned grid capacity, which is an important issue. As I am sure that the industry will report, I have been vigorous in talking to colleagues and the district network operators about the importance of an adequate supply of charge to parts of the country that need it. Lots of work is under way in this area, and he is right to point out the need for cross-departmental co-ordination. I share his frustration at the slow rate of progress on rapid charging points; I would prefer it to be much faster. There have been competition issues and complexities, because in rapid charging areas—many of them motorway service areas—there are significant complexities of ownership and control between the charge point operator, the motorway service area, the landlord and access. Those must be negotiated in each case.”
“He is absolutely right about the importance of confidence, and that is why the zero-emission vehicle mandate is such an important measure. It is not just a huge measure for decarbonisation; it is aimed at stimulating investment in the private infrastructure charge point industry, and that is what it is doing. He pointed to the multiplicity of apps, and he is right about that. There is always a point in the development of any market where it goes from being a series of attempted land grabs and moves for a particular position to one where there is interoperability and a level playing field. That is what these open data requirements are designed to do. I would expect there to be consolidation, as there has already been in the industry, as consumers increasingly focus on using the open data and the most effective apps for their needs.”
“On capacity, I was going to point out that far from being new to this area, the OPSS is already up to speed and enforcing it under other regulations. It has hit the ground running. However, it is recognised that this will be an improvement. The Government have therefore set up a technical working group so that Government agencies, industry members and technical experts can work together on this. The delay in the overall enforcement of the rules, as set out in the statutory instrument, allows an approach to enforcement that we think is suitable to the scale of the investment requirement and the enforcement challenge. Ministers will continue to monitor this with the OPSS to ensure that the capacity remains adequate to the target. The hon. Member asked about confidence.”
“The Government have offered that opportunity in the expectation that the industry will deliver a realistic schedule for winter 2023, thereby minimising last-minute cancellations and delays. The opportunity to hand back slots before the start of the season has been particularly useful in ensuring that airlines deliver a robust schedule, and has helped to provide certainty to consumers that scheduled flights will operate. The measures will cover the winter 2023 season. The Department for Transport is considering whether further alleviation may be required for future seasons. Through these measures, the Government aim to strike a balance between supporting the sector and minimising disruption to consumers while encouraging recovery and ensuring the efficient use of slots.”
“There are two key provisions. The enhanced justified non-utilisation of slots provisions were first introduced for winter 2022. They act as a safety net for airlines if new restrictions are introduced and they can justify not using slots. They protect the airlines’ historic rights to slots in scenarios in which any reintroduced covid-19 measures might severely reduce demand or the viability of a route. However, for any requests for justified non-utilisation of slots, a rationale must be given to the independent co-ordinator for assessment of its merits against the provisions. The second provision is a limited slots hand-back. For this winter season, the Government will again allow carriers to claim alleviation on up to 5% of their slots at any airport handed back before the start of the season, as was done for this summer.”
“Although the industry has taken steps to address those challenges, they are expected to remain an issue during 2024. The Government have therefore designed a package of measures for the winter 2023 season to mitigate the adverse effects of that loss of resilience. The normal 80:20 rule on slots usage has been retained. However, it has been combined with some limited flexibility through a small pre-season hand-back allowance and a continuation of the previously adopted measures on the justified non-utilisation of slots. The Government have focused the measures on a return to business as usual. We are mindful of the need to balance supporting the sector through sensible and proportionate measures to aid its recovery and protecting consumers from disruption, with the need to avoid excessive alleviation, which could distort competition.”
“The Department has seen a strong recovery in passenger demand during 2023, but there remains uncertainty and a lack of resilience in the industry, and demand on some routes remains below the levels seen before the pandemic. Those factors affect both demand, such as the number of returning passengers, as well as supply, such as aircraft availability and staffing. They add to what has been termed the long “covid tail” in rebuilding resilience in the sector. Thus, aircraft that were out of service during the pandemic now spend much longer in maintenance and overhaul than would normally be the case. That phenomenon is compounded by difficulties stemming from the pandemic, which have affected access to spare parts through global supply chains.”
“Following the UK’s departure from the European Union, that legislation created a more flexible set of powers for Ministers to implement alleviation measures for aircraft slots related to the impacts of covid-19, subject to a vote in both Houses. That allows the UK to adapt its approach so as to minimise disruption to consumers and support the recovery of the aviation sector. Under ordinary circumstances, airlines must operate aircraft slots 80% of the time to retain the right to those same slots the following year—that is known as the 80:20 rule, or the “use it or lose it” rule. It is designed to encourage a more efficient use of scarce airport capacity. As a result of the effect of covid-19 on air travel demand, however, alleviation from the rule has been provided since summer 2020.”
“I beg to move, That the draft Airports Slot Allocation (Alleviation of Usage Requirements) (No. 2) Regulations 2023, which were laid before this House on 18 July, be approved. To the casual and untutored eye, this might seem a very small piece of legislation to bring to the Floor of the House of Commons. However, it is not only important to the sector but a useful illustration of the work of Ministers and parliamentarians in Committee, so it is nice to have a chance to focus on these quite technical and not especially controversial regulations. The regulations will be made under powers conferred by the Air Traffic Management and Unmanned Aircraft Act 2021, which also rejoices in the name ATMUA.”
“Members will also note that the level of consultation that informs this set of measures is well spelled out in the explanatory memorandum to the legislation, and that sets out in some detail what conversations and discussions have been had with the industry, and it provides a fairly compelling background to these modest but flexible measures.”
“Among the non-legislative measures is a considerable range of efforts to work with industry on a variety of measures designed to accelerate and speed up the protection of those rights. He is absolutely right. In relation to the use of these measures in future, Baroness Vere of Norbiton, the aviation Minister, said in the House of Lords recently that she was asking herself the question as to when these measures would wind up, and she hoped it would be soon. I think that represents the Government’s position. It is true that we have a consultation planned on slots reform.”
“The hon. Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East asked about the metrics for use in relation to non-utilisation. Those are set out in the excitingly entitled “Principles of slot allocation” document at section 8.8, which concerns the “Justified non-utilisation of slots”, and those are the rules. To respond to his question about slots, obviously there is a consultation to be launched in due course, but those are the rules as they stand. In relation to work on consumer rights, my right hon. Friend will be aware that on 27 June 2023 the Government published our response to the aviation consumer policy reform consultation, which set out legislative reform and non-legislative measures to ensure that passengers receive the best service possible.”
“He will appreciate that, as with Active Travel, the bus and coach sectors, and other items raised in the debate, that issue has nothing to do with the subject of this debate, and he was rightly critical of those who would crowbar in things that are not relevant. However, the concern of any colleague is always relevant if it is a direct constituency matter. He was right to raise it and I thank him for that. I thank the hon. Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East for his support. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Hemel Hempstead said, the joy of having this debate on the Floor of the House of Commons is that a wider range of colleagues can come and express a concern, and we can shine a little light on the statutory legislative process, which is of enormous importance to the conduct of this House and the two Chambers of Parliament.”
“Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East (Mike Kane), for supporting this Conservative legislation. I hope it becomes a habit for the hon. Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire North, as it has done for his former colleague, my hon. Friend the Member for East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow (Dr Cameron)—I think that is a useful development in SNP politics. My right hon. Friend the Member for Hemel Hempstead (Sir Mike Penning)— [ Interruption. ] That is what I said. I said my right hon. Friend the Member for Hemel Hempstead, as the record will show. I was very sorry to hear again about the situation that his constituents have faced in relation to what happened at Luton. I absolutely take on board, and the House will have noted, his comments and concerns about expansion and its impact locally.”
“It is a delight to wind up this debate, and I thank colleagues who have spoken in what have been brief but deep and thoughtful exchanges. The hon. Member for Bath (Wera Hobhouse) rightly pointed to the anti-competitive potential of these measures, and also highlighted their modesty and, therefore, the sensitivities—she is absolutely right about that. She is also right in her concern about ghost flights. At the risk of violently agreeing across the Chamber, I think she is also right on the question of how long these measures will continue for. I will address that issue further in my remarks. The SNP spokesman, the hon. Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire North (Gavin Newlands), was right to point out that there is no direct Scottish interest in this, and I thank him, as I thank the hon.”
“I had sat down, but I am happy to take a late question from my colleague. The number of slots derives from historical control over and entitlement to slots at existing airports, but there are also mechanisms for reallocating slots that have been handed back and for allocating slots when they become available. Those are conducted by an independent process and reviewed by an independent process, and there are no plans in this legislation to make any changes to that.”
“Existing slots will follow the procedures laid out in the legislation. As regards future slots, they will be allocated according to the consultation that we will be launching shortly. I should say that this is the last intervention I will take, Madam Deputy Speaker, since I had sat down before the two previous ones. Question put and agreed to.”
“In line with its recovery plan and since the introduction of its recovery timetable in December 2022, performance has steadily improved, with cancellations attributed to AWC falling from 13% in early January 2023 to as low as 1.1% in July 2023. Over 90% of trains now arrive within 15 minutes of their scheduled time, an improvement from 75% in December 2022.”
“In October 2022 and March 2023 the Department approved the award of short-term contracts to First Trenitalia operating as AWC to continue to operate services on the west coast main line. Awarding short-term contracts allowed the Department to monitor progress by AWC in improving performance following the withdrawal of rest day working before considering whether it would be appropriate to award a long-term contract. Avanti’s performance has improved significantly during this time, and taking into account other relevant considerations, the Secretary of State has decided to award a longer-term contract, as announced in today’s written statement. Over recent months Avanti has made significant progress in recovering from the poor reliability and punctuality delivered in the latter half of last year.”
“I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his congratulations. The Minister of State, the hon. Member for Bexhill and Battle (Huw Merriman), continues to represent His Majesty’s Government today in Poland to support UK train companies, among others, at a major international trade fair, and I am therefore replying on his behalf. The Department has awarded a new national rail contract to First Trenitalia to continue to operate the west coast partnership, providing west coast train services as Avanti West Coast. The national rail contract will have a core term of three years and a maximum possible term of nine years. After three years the Department can terminate the contract at any point with three months’ notice.”
“Gentleman describes, I am astounded that he is not agreeing with the Secretary of State and celebrating the improvement over the last nine months, and six months in particular: cancellations were as low as 1.1% in July; 90% of trains arrive within 15 minutes; over 100 additional drivers have been trained and brought on since April 2022. Each of those is a significant achievement. It is all very well for the hon. Gentleman to talk about engagement, but the hon. Gentleman has not exactly been shy in writing to the Department, so I asked my officials to scan the letters we have received and I do not think there was a single one from him in the last year mentioning Avanti. If that is an indication of how content he is with the service, I am delighted to hear it.”
“I thank the hon. Gentleman for his flurry of questions, and I shall address what he said. He asked for the release of the criteria of the contract awarded; that is a commercial matter and we are not going to discuss that, but I can reassure the hon. Gentleman that the Minister of State my hon. Friend the Member for Bexhill and Battle has met very regularly with the entire industry and has been working on a weekly basis with officials and with Avanti, and therefore has had the matter very much in hand. On the performance the hon.”
“I would add that there is some awareness that in relation to services to Milton Keynes, west midlands and north Wales there is progress to be made, and I think I am right in saying that the new chief executive is very much focused on that issue as well.”
“I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his question; he brings not just personal experience of this service as an MP for Milton Keynes but also his considerable expertise as Chairman of the Transport Committee. He is right to pick up on the point of micromanagement, and that is one reason why, having been in a period of relatively short contracts—a number of two-month and three-month contracts—in order to monitor progress, the Government have now seen fit to move to a much longer framework: a three-year contract but with the potential capacity to terminate thereafter if performance is not sustained. That strikes the right balance between giving the certainty Avanti needs to continue to invest in improving the service and the accountability that the Government rightly demand.”
“Gentleman is right to highlight the previous underperformance, but he is entirely wrong to predict that that will continue, because we see the evidence in front of us. As I have already said, cancellations have been as low as 1.1% in July, and over 90% of trains are now arriving within 15 minutes of their scheduled time. That is part of the basis on which the Secretary of State has decided to award this new contract. If the alternative that the Labour party is proposing is the nationalisation of our railways, I look forward to seeing the budgetary implications of that, let alone any justification that civil servants directed by Labour Ministers would do a better job than this new professional team at Avanti.”
“I thank the hon. Member for that brave shot. Let me just remind him that, far from being dragged to the House, the Government published a written ministerial statement and a press release this morning. Not only that, but to the extent that the Government were dragged to the House, it was by the Scottish National party. This is the second time in two days that the Labour party has been caught napping by another party in this House. As to the availability of the rail Minister, we try to pay total football in the Department for Transport. While Cruyff is haring down one wing, we expect Neeskens to be playing through the centre, and that is how we think about these things. The hon.”
“With my hon. Friend’s minutiose attention to detail, he will recognise that yesterday we had the rail replacement bus Minister, but today we have another rail replacement Minister. That is thoroughly in order. As regards the effect on customers, again, my hon. Friend is spot on. It is very noticeable how much the new team at Avanti recognise the commercial challenge of wooing back customers they have lost following the disastrous underperformance of last year, which they recognise, understand and accept. That is a vital commercial challenge. We judge that they are beginning to meet that and doing more than beginning to meet that as a matter of service. There is much further to go as regards the extension of the quality of the service. They recognise that, and that is all in the interest of customers and better customer experience.”
“The hon. Member’s use of choice parliamentary or possibly unparliamentary language is not something I would want to repeat, even if I thought it was accurate. It is important for him to recognise the progress that has been made. If he does not recognise that, that is a pity, because there is a very considerable improvement. The question now for the House and for Government is how to sustain and enhance that improvement in the longer term. The judgment has been made that a longer-term contract will give the stability in which the company can invest for the betterment of travellers, and that is to everyone’s advantage.”
“I completely understand the concern that my right hon. Friend describes. As he will be aware, in many of these individual cases, problems lie at the network level, or are a result of driver shortages or other reasons, as well as underperformance by the company, but I absolutely recognise—and Avanti recognises—the point he raises. The answer is that, of course, the Department will remain very firmly focused on continuing to hold this company to account for the delivery of services and the continued improvement of those services.”
“That was not the question I was asked; I did answer the question that was asked. It is built into the new contract structure that, after the initial period, which allows for the investment that is required to continue to make sustained improvement, there is a recurring three-month capacity to call in the contract as required, precisely in order to exercise the kind of scrutiny and accountability that the hon. Gentleman is seeking.”
“I thank my hon. Friend for his positive remarks, which give the lie to the previous comments made directly. I can assure him that the Government are focused and will remain available to discuss and consider that point. Can I also reiterate and double down on a point that I made earlier? One of the functions of being able to provide a longer contract is to allow the introduction of more fleet and, in particular, a brand-new fleet of electric and bi-mode Hitachi trains to replace the current diesel fleet. We expect that there will be sustained improvement at the level of rolling stock as well as at the level of service provision.”
“I am not sure what the hon. Gentleman is referring to, since the Minister was on time. I will not say that it was an improved service over the normal one, but it was hopefully an adequate replacement. Of course, the Government stand behind this decision. A process of care and attention has been given weekly to the performance of the company, and separately to the contract grant. It has been done with great attention to detail, as the hon. Gentleman would expect.”
“It speaks very well of the rail Minister that he did visit, and engaged with my hon. Friend and her constituents—I think that is absolutely right. She asks how it will be done: it will be done by providing a contractual framework in which there can be more investment; by bringing on 100 more drivers; by recognising that there is considerable scope for further improvement in the service, to north Wales in particular; and by improvements in rolling stock. All of that will make for a better service.”
“The hon. Lady is absolutely right that there are knock-on effects and that some of those effects bear on east-west services. That is one of the reasons that the Department has separately announced and negotiated a national rail contract for CrossCountry as a rail operator, in order to provide a framework for stable further investment in those knock-on services.”
“The hon. Lady is deliberately drawing on statistics from before the recent improvements that the Government are recognising in this contract award. However, there is a further point: it is of course right to raise individual items, but we ought to get away from a situation in which politicians feel that they can micromanage and second-guess decisions made by people at the operating level. The key thing is to make sure that the quality of management is in place to drive continued, sustained improvement, as we expect it now is with the new chief executive, Mr Mellors.”
“Of course, a variety of considerations sit around any contract award. The attraction of this one is that it allows the most rapid possible progress on fleet improvements and support for the new management team that might be expected. As the hon. Gentleman would imagine, the Secretary of State has spent a considerable amount of time talking to the new management to make sure that they really are focused on improvement, and to hear in detail what their plan for that improvement is. The award was made in part on that basis.”
“I understand the hon. Gentleman’s concern. It is fair to say that, from day to day, there are different issues that interrupt a good service. As I have already said, those relate not just to the availability of drivers and other key staff, but to underperformance from time to time and disruption to Network Rail infrastructure. All of those things can play their role in a highly integrated network.”
“The hon. Lady did not ask a question, but I understood every word of her speech. Since she is new to the House, she might want to have a conversation directly with the rail Minister about this: he is highly engaged on these issues, as colleagues across the Chamber will know. If she has not seen any improvement in relation to her constituency, at least she has the satisfaction of knowing that improvements have been recognised around the House.”