Jesse Norman
MP for Hereford and South Herefordshire · Conservative · United Kingdom
“In view of the new Prime Minister’s spending priorities, it now seems highly unlikely that the ruinously expensive current plans will be put to the House before the end of this year. Seven months have already passed with no action.”
“10 North have real spending powers of its own? If the answer is yes, then this will be a new kind of cross-departmental Ministry—perhaps a territorial Ministry, like a regional Government but with no defined scope or mandate. We will need to see the legal instruments delegating Treasury authority and functions to it.”
“I rather fear that, given our longevity and at least the level of banter on the Government side of the Dispatch Box, we will be seen over time as the Morecambe and Wise, or perhaps the two Ronnies, of British politics.”
“The past few weeks have brought news of the deaths of Dolly Parton, Tim Curry and Wendell Berry. I am sure that many colleagues will share my sense of shock and sadness at the loss of those extraordinary figures, but also give great thanks for their lives. Truly, we live in a world of change.”
“10 North will not have spending power of its own, then ultimately the Treasury and the Chancellor will continue to sign off on its public spending and on any taxing matters. Decentralisation is really important, but No. 10 North will not be a means of decentralisation in this scenario; it will be just another layer of Government.”
“But we are not going to cast nasturtiums, in the words of a friend of mine, on any of this nonsense—not even on Baroness Lloyd and the hopeless Building Digital UK, who have entirely failed to address the issue of fibre broadband in neglected parts of my constituency and simply repeated the same language of incompetence and failure to me…”
The complete record
Every one of 5,414 lines we hold for Jesse Norman, in date order, each linked to its source. Free to read, in full, without an account. Page 11 of 109.
“I thank the hon. Lady for her tempting invitation, but I am not going to second-guess His Majesty on what he will announce in the King’s Speech. What I can say is that this is a topic of great interest to the Government and, as she will know, the Department is making considerable progress in the non-legislative mode that we are in at the moment to achieve many of the goals we all share.”
“What I recall from that hearing is that Mr Mellors said 1% of the tickets at Glasgow were sold through the ticket office, that there would be a full staff in front of the ticket office, that those staff would work from the first train in the morning until the last train at the end of the day and that they would continue to accept cash. That sounds like quite a good service offer to me.”
“To support that, there is an HGV and infrastructure demonstrators project that will showcase zero-emission hydrogen fuel cell and battery electric HGV technology at scale in UK fleets, and the Government have already tested such vehicles. Those demonstrators build on the £20 million investment made in 2021-22. In a slightly different context, I was absolutely delighted to welcome the first JCB hydrogen digger, a magnificent piece of kit that is emblematic of the innovation we have seen in the sector. It is also important for me to mention, because we have touched on it, the work we are doing in the area of connected and automated mobility. Some £600 million of joint public and private investment has been placed in that sector since 2015.”
“Alongside that, we have laid consumer regulations that will ensure that pricing information and payment methods are simplified, that charge points are reliable and that public charge point data is freely available, addressing many of the issues that have rightly been raised about standards, interconnection and transparency. The Government worked with the national disability charity Motability and the British Standards Institution in order to develop those standards, which has made an important difference to their quality. We must not think just about cars, or even just about cars and vans, but about heavy goods vehicles as well. It is well understood that the UK is seeking to make a transition to zero emission in this area as well, as part of our wider ambition.”
“Of course, a lot of that comes through private investment. The Chancellor recently opened the UK’s largest electric vehicle infrastructure charging site to date in Birmingham, which includes 180 charging devices. My hon. Friend the Member for Meriden (Saqib Bhatti) and the hon. Member for Bath (Wera Hobhouse) both raised the question of standards, and rightly so. As they will know, the Government are investing £381 million through the local electric vehicle infrastructure fund to deliver tens of thousands of local charge points, and the rapid charging fund will do the same thing to future-proof electrical capacity at strategic locations.”
“It is understood on all sides of this House that the roll-out of electric vehicles needs to be supported by a robust and widespread public charging network, and that network continues to grow. To date, the Government and the industry have supported the installation of over 48,000 publicly available charging devices—again, an increase of 43% over the past year—which includes nearly 9,000 rapid devices. My hon. Friend the Member for Rugby (Mark Pawsey) rightly highlighted service areas, and I was delighted to hear his excellent description of the very rapid scale-up of the motorway service area at junction 1 of the M6; that was a very interesting and important intervention. He will know that over 96% of service areas in England now have charging available, and there are hundreds of chargers across the motorway service area network.”
“Some 58% of those vehicles are battery electric vehicles; in August 2023, 20% of new cars in the UK were battery electric vehicles, so again, that is a sign of confidence and growth, and rightly so. That puts the UK’s automotive industry at the forefront of new low-carbon technology, creating thousands of new jobs and providing certainty among manufacturers and infrastructure investors. Some 65% of vehicle manufacturers in the UK car market have already committed to making the transition to zero-emission cars by 2030, and all major manufacturers have committed to selling 100% zero-emission vehicles by 2035. Several Members have raised the question of EV infra- structure and charging roll-out.”
“The truth of the matter is that over the past two years, the UK’s automotive sector has been boosted by over £6 billion-worth of business investment that will drive the transition to zero-emission vehicles, with funding for manufacturing and crucial components as well. That investment reflects confidence. We know that that transition is important. Cars and vans account for a huge proportion of domestic UK transport emissions, and it is therefore important to address that. Over £2 billion has been spent to support the transition, and the Government are continuing to invest. There are now more than 1.2 million plug-in vehicles in the UK—a 45% increase over the past year. Again, that does not speak to decline; it speaks to rapid growth and acceleration.”
“As we heard the determination to be gloomy from the other side of the House, we were noticing at the same time the £4 billion-worth of new gigafactory investment from Tata Group; Nissan and Envision’s announcement a couple of years ago of £1 billion to create an EV manufacturing hub in Sunderland; the £227 million invested in Halewood; Bentley committing £2.5 billion to make the transition to zero-emission vehicles at its Crewe plant; and JLR’s investment of £15 billion over five years into its industrial footprint towards electrification. If everything is as disastrous as the Opposition suggest, how can there be this constant succession of new private-sector investments? That is the question.”
“We celebrate BMW Group’s announcement that it will invest £600 million in the production of two all-new electric Mini models, supporting the full transition to electric vehicle production by 2030. We welcome that, as do both Members of Parliament for Oxford, the hon. Member for Oxford West and Abingdon (Layla Moran) and the hon. Member for Oxford East (Anneliese Dodds). We are very pleased to have their support, as well as that of Members across this House. We welcome the fantastic investment that Stellantis has made in Ellesmere Port, as has the hon. Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston (Justin Madders), although he could not avoid being gloomy about that aspect of the tremendous investment that is taking place. That makes the plant the first all-EV facility in the UK, and one of the first in Europe.”
“What an excellent debate it has been! I have been very interested to follow the contributions that have been made—very welcome they are too. You may recall, Madam Deputy Speaker, that this debate follows an urgent question that was tabled by the Labour party some months ago regarding the state of the automotive sector, at which Labour Members were mortified to discover that vast numbers of investments were already under way. It is unfortunate that the hon. Member for Sefton Central (Bill Esterson) talks about being let down. If this country, this economy and this industry are feeling let down, why is it that there has been this astonishing succession of investments? That speaks not to people feeling let down, but to confidence and investment in the future.”
“Capacity-building projects for important areas of our connected and autonomous vehicle supply chain are already starting to take place. This country remains one of the first to explore the business case for connected and autonomous mobility as a mass-transit solution. Connected and autonomous mobility will be the future; it will be an electric future, a zero-emission future, and one that is powered by the investments and leadership being provided now, with the private sector, by this Government. Question put and agreed to. Resolved, That this House has considered the UK automotive industry.”
“An economist of my right hon. Friend’s distinction will know that it is futile to predict the activity of private markets, because they so often move faster than we would imagine. A classic example of that is the way in which electrification has moved up the range and weight curves over the past few years. It is certainly true that at the moment, electric vehicles rely on fossil fuels for part of their charge, meaning that they are less green than they will be when those fossil fuels are removed from our electrical charging system. Nevertheless, those vehicles remain significantly lower-emission over their life cycle than equivalent petrol and diesel vehicles, including the production and disposal of batteries.”
“However, the general policy, as far as I am aware, is the one that I have enunciated for the Government.”
“There is a very simple reason for that. There are many cases of sectors in the UK economy that have called for VAT cuts. In a very small number of cases, because VAT is by design a broad-based tax, reductions have been made to levels of VAT. Very often, they have not been passed on as any kind of saving to the end user; they have gone to support the margins of the company. In the training operator business there may be some value in that, but it is the normal course of things that in a competitive private sector industry there will inevitably be organisations that for various reasons do not manage themselves effectively, or go bust for other reasons.”
“That amounted to something like £8 billion of pandemic-related support and included support through loan guarantees; support for exporters; the Bank of England’s covid corporate financing facility; the coronavirus job retention scheme, for which I was responsible; the Treasury’s furlough scheme; and the airport and ground operations support scheme. A tremendous amount of specific support for the sector was given during what was a completely unexpected and dramatic change in our business, social, personal and economic arrangements. My hon. Friend is absolutely right to focus on that; he is also right that fuel prices have gone up, which will have had the effect of driving prices upwards. However, as a former Financial Secretary to the Treasury, I do not share my hon. Friend’s view that a cut to VAT would be the answer to the problem.”
“I will come on later to what the CAA is doing and the suggestions that have been made, but let me just pick up on a couple of points that, rightly and importantly, have been made by my hon. Friend the Member for East Worthing and Shoreham. He is right that the pandemic had a difficult impact on the aviation industry generally and on the training sector. As he will recall, the Government made every effort, at considerable cost to the taxpayer, to support institutions, companies and individuals throughout the air transport sector.”
“We are talking about terrible local impacts on a relatively small number of people so far and three failures of ATOs among some 270 registered flight schools across the UK. That is not to derogate for a second from the tremendous importance and extreme sadness and in some cases grief that has been inflicted; it is only to say that making general rules on the basis of a relatively small portion of the whole sector is something that one needs to bear in mind. When we think about the enormous sums that have been lost in some cases, we are talking about people who are in commercial licences at the very top of the pyramid and are therefore as close as one could be to potential long-term gainful employment.”
“That carries with it tremendous disruption and difficulty, and it exacerbates the impact because an individual can literally turn up one day or—as colleagues’ constituents have done—receive an email saying that the institution to which they have confided their hopes, their dreams and a lot of money has gone, completely unexpectedly and without any notice, into liquidation. They may, and in many cases will, receive back none of the money that they have already contributed. When we think about the wider picture, however, it is important to put things into perspective. May I offer the Chamber a correction to a number that has been used? In 2023—I am advised by civil servants that this is true—there were 11,675 applications for training across all licences in aviation.”
“I am the son of a pilot, the brother of pilots, the nephew of a pilot and the grandson of a pilot, so I have a very considerable personal understanding of the issues involved, as well as the ambition, inspiration and joy that flight gives young men and women across this country, as it has done for generations. I fully recognise the point that the hon. Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East made about the increasing importance of a relentless focus on improving diversity in the sector. He is absolutely right about that, in every dimension. Having said that, what we have here, as far as I can tell, is the disorderly liquidation of three local aviation training operators.”
“As he will know, the Government regard the aviation sector as an important strategic asset. It contributes at least £14 billion to our GDP every year and supports some 230,000 jobs across all regions of the country. We recognise the sector’s importance both geographically and economically. It is important to focus, as hon. Friends have done, on the dire impact of training operators’ failures on the students involved. There is a tremendous human cost, which has been brought out well during this debate. I have a particular sense of identification with it because I have a pilot’s licence myself, although tragically it has long since fallen out of use. It was paid for not by the bank of mum and dad but out of my own earnings, in case Opposition Members were wondering.”
“It is a delight to see you in the Chair, Sir Robert. I thank everyone who has spoken in the debate, and I congratulate the hon. Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East (Mike Kane) on retaining his place in the shadow Transport team. It has been an interesting debate, and I am grateful to colleagues for their contributions. Aviation is a very important sector and is a matter of local importance in the constituencies involved. Let me start by reiterating the apology that my noble Friend Baroness Vere gave to my hon. Friend the Member for East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim Loughton). I know that she and he are to meet in a matter of days, and I look forward to that being a constructive and engaging conversation. I am delighted to respond to his concerns in this debate.”
“I am not making policy from where I stand; I was speaking as a former Treasury Minister about the general attitude towards VAT and the general problem that no Government of any stamp can compel a private company to pass a saving on to consumers. Indeed, whether or not savings are passed on is itself a function of the competitive conditions in the sector. I will come on to what the CAA can do later in my remarks, but although I understand my hon. Friend’s concern about the cost of VAT, let me remind him that the taxpayer will be a significant loser from the failure of these companies. I recognise a certain strength in his point about individual students being recognised; if he wishes to raise that point with the Treasury or with Baroness Vere, he is very welcome to do so.”
“They would be required to register as higher education providers with the Office for Students. There would be a number of regulatory burdens that ATOs might wish to take on, but they might very well decide that they did not want to submit to them. Some of those would address the issue of concern here, for example through student protection plans, compliance with consumer protection laws, Ofsted inspections, quality and standards assessments and the like. My hon. Friend the Member for East Worthing and Shoreham may wish to pick up that point with my noble Friend Baroness Vere when he sees her. It is a matter of empirical investigation whether ATOs would be interested in registering as higher education providers with the Office for Students and whether they would treat it as a competitive trading advantage.”
“It also lies within the CAA’s power to extend the 18-month period in which students can restart their training; it can do so on a case-by-case basis for anyone caught out by exam timescales or other aspects. The hon. Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East mentioned first officer apprenticeships. I do not share his rather negative approach. This is an important development, which can itself be further built on. It may not provide the full total towards the training, but it is a very substantial contribution. It remains available to sponsors of apprenticeships, beyond the individual students, to support—as they do in other industries—students who wish to complete the training under that framework. It is also important to say that treating ATOs as higher education providers would carry costs to them.”
“I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman wants to comment on whether the Scottish Government had considered that, either as a matter of intervention at the time or now, in order to support Tayside Aviation if it wished to get back up as a trading entity. The hon. Gentleman does not respond. Let me press on. The question is what we can do to support students under the very difficult circumstances in which they have found themselves. The CAA has responsibility for flight safety rather than for the financial wellbeing of the flight schools. Nevertheless, I think it has understood and recognised that there is every benefit to the UK in seeking to retain the value of students’ training so far. It has therefore enabled the transfer of training records to other ATOs so that, wherever possible, training is not lost.”
“Of course individuals are welcome—and will want—to consider all the options under all circumstances, but I have not accepted the hon. Member’s narrative that the sector is in decline. We have had three important local failures of flying schools, but in general the sector has rebounded remarkably well from the pandemic. I would not accept that it is in decline; in fact, in many ways it has made a robust recovery. In his own remarks, the hon. Gentleman highlighted the failure of Tayside Aviation. As far as I understand it, however, it would absolutely have been within the power of the Scottish Government not to change VAT, but to provide some grant intervention to Tayside Aviation had they wished to do so, either as an education provider or under the heading of industrial strategy, both of which are devolved areas.”
“The hon. Gentleman is right to raise that interesting question. I have already talked about one scheme that has a similar approach—not a loan scheme, but an apprenticeship scheme. However, for a loan as he has described, the problem, which I have raised, would be the need to register with the Office for Students. As one goes up the flight training tree, one gets further away from basic education and closer and closer to a commercially valuable proposition that it is in the interest of companies in the aviation sector to support and finance. There may well be other things that can be done.”
“It is obviously not appropriate for me to prejudge that in a debate today in Parliament, but the Government are very much looking forward to seeing that application and will judge it, of course, on its merits, in the usual way, in due course. With that, I think I will sit down.”
“Of course, the Department is working with industry and the Education and Skills Funding Agency on the first officer apprenticeship, as I mentioned. That, I think, has an important role to play in this. Let me just pick up one other little thing that was just raised by colleagues before I close. The hon. Member for Dundee West (Chris Law) raised the question of PSOs. Of course, that does not directly have anything to do with this debate, but it is important. Let me just say that the Government recognise that PSOs are important to meet regional connectivity and levelling-up objectives. As I understand it—and I think he said—Dundee City Council has recently undertaken a tender for a new contract on the route from the end of October, and the Department has said that it will consider the application.”
“The hon. Gentleman raises an interesting and somewhat philosophical question. I do not intend to get enormously technical on this issue, but the reason why, in the case of doctors, for example, this support has been given is that historically these doctors then go and work for the majority—perhaps all—of their careers in the NHS, in the discharge of a public function. If doctors left immediately to go and join commercial medical organisations, which an increasing number are, it might well be that, in some cases, from a public sector perspective, the philosophical question whether or not they should be supported by the taxpayer would be raised. I think we are in the same space of discussion; that is interesting. I will say a couple of other things, if I may.”
“The Government, as the House will be aware, are investing more than any other in active travel, with more than £3 billion in investment over this Parliament, which enables the delivery of high-quality schemes across the country. Active Travel England is helping local authorities to deliver the greatest possible value for money in that investment by ensuring that relevant schemes comply with the guidance. It is also ensuring that any active travel schemes funded by the Department are of the highest quality.”
“I find that surprising, if I may say so, because this Government are not only investing, but seeking to reduce any possibility of conflict between drivers of cars and cyclists. I do not think the hon. Lady should disagree with policies that are designed to reduce that conflict. What we want to see is more choice for people in how they travel. Inevitably, many and increasing numbers of people want to use active travel, because of all its health and environmental advantages.”
“We are respectful of decisions made locally by local authorities, but he is absolutely right that, as I said, we are seeking to promote choice. That approach does mean that where people want to use cars, they will be perfectly able to do so, and where they want to use active travel, with all its personal and environmental benefits, they can do that as well.”
“We take safety extremely seriously and have done a lot of work on this issue over the years. The whole point of having dedicated active travel infrastructure on the scale that it is being rolled out at the moment is to segregate and improve safety for those using active travel. I am sure that the hon. Lady will welcome the excellent work done on connected and autonomous vehicles, because they offer a potentially revolutionary improvement in safety over time.”
“The fact of the matter is, through both covid and the Barnett formula, the Scottish Government have been funded at levels that vastly exceed those available in England. If one is a Herefordian, as I am, one looks with astonishment at the increased levels of spending north of the border and wishes that, in many ways, a similar rural landscape such as our own were supported as well as that.”
“It appears that the right hon. Gentleman knows a lot more about this than I do. Any expansion of Heathrow is a matter for it, as he will know. If that is financed, it will be by private finance for what is a private sector project. The Department has no position on this matter, because at some point the Secretary of State may need to be invited to decide on any development consent order, so we do not take a view.”
“We recognise this important issue. The Secretary of State has had the question put to him by local stakeholders. He is considering the matter and will respond in due course.”
“All transport infrastructure projects delivered by the Department’s arm’s length bodies are required to undertake whole-life carbon assessments and set carbon reduction targets as part of their business cases. National Highways, HS2 Ltd and Network Rail have already set out ambitious plans for achieving net zero and we are supporting them in their delivery. Through the Live Labs 2 competition, we awarded £30 million of funding to seven new regional projects to boost innovation in decarbonising highways infrastructure.”
“I thank my hon. Friend for that question, and it is very interesting to hear about the work of Polypipe. She will be aware that those decisions are for National Highways as an arm’s length body, but she has put that point on the record in Hansard , and I would be very happy to put the question to National Highways so that it is specifically considered in detail.”
“The hon. Gentleman will be aware that a very wide range of information about potential costs and budgets is already in the public domain from the Department across a very wide range of modes. On electric vehicles, we have just consulted on regulations on the zero-emission vehicle mandate, and £6 billion of new private investment is being scheduled on the basis of those projections. That will transform our charging infrastructure, and we should all welcome it.”
“The hon. Gentleman may know that we have just had a very interesting and successful potential negotiation at the International Maritime Organisation. We take this issue extremely seriously, both as regards the decarbonisation of ports and the creation of green routes and other forms of maritime decarbonisation. We absolutely are working on this agenda, recognising that it is one of the most difficult areas of all to decarbonise over time.”
“The hon. Gentleman will be aware of our ORCS—on-street residential chargepoint scheme—fund to support on-street charging. We also have the new LEVI—local electric vehicle infrastructure—fund, and have given money to local authorities to support capability building in the area. If there is a specific concern that animates him in relation to his constituency, he is welcome to write to me.”
“Fascinatingly, only today, Tesla has announced its intention to become an electricity supplier, which will itself become an enormously important part of that wider systems infrastructure that has been rightly mentioned. What a day to choose to be gloomy on. What a day of good news, and how much that reinforces the picture of an industry that is dealing brilliantly with the challenges and changes to its own circumstances.”
“Gentleman came, as did the hon. Member for Sheffield, Heeley (Louise Haigh), with a clear agenda for this debate, which was to tell a desperate story of a struggling industry and a country labouring in its automotive manufacturing. Unfortunately, they have both had desperately bad luck in their choice of debate, because those gloomy speeches are made, and the desire for optimism is expressed, and then it turns out that Geely and Renault have today announced a pioneering new investment to become a global leader in new engine technologies. Not only that: it turns out that we just laid the new charge point regulations, which will make it easier than ever to own an EV. Those were widely welcomed, I might add, by Mike Hawes of the SMMT, who was richly quoted today by Opposition Members, and with reason.”
“It has been an interesting and absorbing debate, and I thank all those who have taken part in it. I must say that I take my hat off to the hon. Member for Stalybridge and Hyde (Jonathan Reynolds). It is interesting to know that he grew up in Sunderland, and I notice his great affection for the Black Cats—an affection I greatly share—Niall Quinn and the glory days of Peter Reid. Who but the hon. Gentleman could better hark back to the 1990s, and how much does he do so in politics as he does in football? It is a little unnerving to see him newly hirsute—at least in terms of the past year or three. He is getting an unnervingly close resemblance to His late Majesty King George V, which creates a somewhat unnerving impression across the Dispatch Box when one is trying to respond to the important points he makes. The hon.”
“I hope that I can reassure her by reminding her that National Grid reported that in 2010 less than 20% of our energy was renewable, while in 2022—last year—more than 50% was renewable in five months of the year. That is tremendous progress. She may also be pleased to know that coal, which was used for 43% of electricity generation in 2012, is now at 1.5%. That is tremendous progress on both those fronts.”
“Member for Stalybridge and Hyde, who did not want to be drawn on Brexit. I understand why: the country took a decision and we are working with the consequences. The hon. Member for Gordon said that the speech by my hon. Friend the Minister for Industry and Economic Security—a brilliant speech it was, too—was the length of time it would take to charge an EV. At 35 minutes, that is not quite true, but that is absolutely the ambition that we want to get to for all EV operators across the country. We want people to be able to charge very rapidly while they go and pick up a cup of coffee in the usual way. I thank the hon. Member for Llanelli (Dame Nia Griffith) for her comment. She asked for a renewable energy focus and was right to do so.”
“As an apprentice in this House, I salute him; he echoed the “Education, education, education” policy of a former Member of this House with “Skills, skills, skills”, which I completely agree are very important. Let me remind him that in my constituency we are pioneering a specialist STEM technology university—the New Model Institute for Technology and Engineering—which is just the thing that can be used to build skills and to prime levelling up across the country. What a wonderfully fresh and enthusiastic speech from the hon. Member for Gordon (Richard Thomson). I was excited to hear it, but tragically it turned out to be a tag-team “curse on both your houses” misery exercise, relitigating Brexit long after that horse has left the stable. That was rightly picked up by the hon.”
“I also hope she will be pleased that ChargeUK, representing the charge point operators, has announced that £6 billion will be invested in charge points across the country over the next few years. That is a direct result of the ZEV mandate, which ties the creation of charge point infrastructure to the support for EVs in the systemic way that parties across the House, including the Opposition, recognise. It is those two things that will grow together. It is the ability to aim against that target of specific EV numbers coming into and being sold in this country that creates the priming for private investment, and rightly so. I was pleased to hear the contribution of the hon. Member for Birmingham, Perry Barr (Mr Mahmood), who was absolutely right to raise the topic of apprenticeships.”