Jesse Norman
MP for Hereford and South Herefordshire · Conservative · United Kingdom
“In view of the new Prime Minister’s spending priorities, it now seems highly unlikely that the ruinously expensive current plans will be put to the House before the end of this year. Seven months have already passed with no action.”
“10 North have real spending powers of its own? If the answer is yes, then this will be a new kind of cross-departmental Ministry—perhaps a territorial Ministry, like a regional Government but with no defined scope or mandate. We will need to see the legal instruments delegating Treasury authority and functions to it.”
“I rather fear that, given our longevity and at least the level of banter on the Government side of the Dispatch Box, we will be seen over time as the Morecambe and Wise, or perhaps the two Ronnies, of British politics.”
“The past few weeks have brought news of the deaths of Dolly Parton, Tim Curry and Wendell Berry. I am sure that many colleagues will share my sense of shock and sadness at the loss of those extraordinary figures, but also give great thanks for their lives. Truly, we live in a world of change.”
“10 North will not have spending power of its own, then ultimately the Treasury and the Chancellor will continue to sign off on its public spending and on any taxing matters. Decentralisation is really important, but No. 10 North will not be a means of decentralisation in this scenario; it will be just another layer of Government.”
“But we are not going to cast nasturtiums, in the words of a friend of mine, on any of this nonsense—not even on Baroness Lloyd and the hopeless Building Digital UK, who have entirely failed to address the issue of fibre broadband in neglected parts of my constituency and simply repeated the same language of incompetence and failure to me…”
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“Obviously, they will be subject to the same proof of payment as they would have been before. In general, the point of this scheme is that without it, they would not be able to deduct acquisition VAT as they could prior to the end of the transition period. Through this scheme, they can continue to recover the same VAT as they could before, so it is thoroughly to be welcomed. The right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr Carmichael) asked about VAT RES. I am very sorry, but that was in the wrong debate. If he had held his horses, he could have raised that in the next debate, or he could have raised it—equally inappropriately—in the previous debate, which I see he was down to speak in. The good news is that my hon. Friend the Exchequer Secretary will address these issues comprehensively in the debate to follow.”
“It is very easy to overstate the complexity of the issues involved. In the cases that the right hon. Gentleman mentions, the Northern Irish partner has full access to the Trader Support Service, and the Great British partner has a comprehensive amount of guidance online, so the two come together. Inevitably, people will take some time to get used to what is, after all, a change in the arrangements. He is right to pick up the point about the effectiveness of the TSS. I do not think there is a suggestion that the support that businesses have been given in terms of information is anything less than comprehensive. The right hon. Member for East Antrim asked about do-it-yourself builders. I can confirm that no further information will be required from do-it-yourself house builders, who will file a single VAT return.”
“Since their introduction, the coronavirus job retention scheme and the self-employment income support scheme have been available to those unable to go to work because of caring responsibilities arising from covid-19, such as caring for a home schooling child or caring for a vulnerable individual. Those who are unable to work from home and have been told to shield have also been eligible for these support schemes, as well as for statutory sick pay and employment and support allowance.”
“The truth is that this pandemic has had a desperately difficult effect for the whole of the UK economy, and for families and people across our country and regions. It is appropriate to recognise the totality of the difficulty we find ourselves in. It is true that many women have found themselves in the position of either caring for home schooling or vulnerable individuals. They are supported and protected through the schemes we have put in place. Of course, over and above those schemes, we have also put in place significant amounts of support for remote education, laptops and councils to help vulnerable individuals.”
“As the hon. Member will know, furlough is an arrangement reached between companies and their employees. Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs and the Government do not have direct involvement in that. What they say is that where an agreement can be reached between the two sides we will support them, as laid out in one of the most generous schemes available in any country around the world. As I said, that is just one part of a much wider panoply of support for people at risk through the pandemic.”
“The self-employment income support scheme is one of the most generous in the world and has received claims from almost 2.7 million people so far, totalling more than £18.5 billion. The amount of the scheme grant is determined based on the applicant’s average profits from self-employment in the previous three tax years, as reported through their tax returns. By calculating the grant on an average of three years of profits, the scheme supports people who saw a dip in profits for any reason, including pregnancy.”
“If I may just say, the hon. Gentleman is wrong. We are not talking about a claim that is not validated by third parties; it is understood internationally that the scheme is one of the most generous in the world. He will be aware that the issue is subject to legal challenge, which limits what I can say, but I can tell him that the Government are well aware that some self-employed people found that their eligibility for the scheme was affected if they had taken time out of their trade in 2018-19, which is why, in June last year, the scheme’s eligibility criteria were revised to ensure that people in that situation were able to claim self-employment income support.”
“I am not sure whether the sound system was working but, as the hon. Lady will know from my previous remarks, the issue is subject to legal challenge so I cannot discuss it. I will say, though, that I met maternity groups as part of the excluded in early December, and we have taken steps to remedy the situation, where we have been able to do so, in relation to those who took time out in the year 2018-19.”
“The self-employment income support scheme was designed to target support at those who most need it while protecting the taxpayer against error, fraud and abuse. The Government recognise that some of the rules and criteria that have been vital to ensuring that the scheme worked for the vast majority have meant that, in some cases, people were not able to qualify. This is one reason why the Government put in place a much wider £280 billion support package, including increased levels of universal credit, bounce back loans, tax deferrals, rental support, mortgage holidays, self-isolation support payments and other business support grants.”
“The message would be that the Treasury is doing everything it can to protect jobs, families and livelihoods in the face of the worst pandemic crisis that we have experienced in recorded history. It is important to say that, in the case of this scheme, we have spent considerable time engaging with groups that have brought forward potential ways of addressing some of the gaps in support that may exist. As I mentioned, we have had meetings in December and evaluated suggestions all the way through last year, including a concrete suggestion in relation to the directors income support scheme, so we are heavily leaning into this issue.”
“As I have said, the Government are doing everything they can and have been working round the clock for a year to address the full needs of the country across all the different aspect of our economy and society, including through support for the self-employed.”
“I think that it is well understood that the Chancellor will be setting out further plans in the March Budget. It is normal for this time of year for different decisions to be consolidated into that important fiscal event for well-known reasons.”
“I thank my right hon. Friend for his question, which tempts me into indiscretion. He may be aware of this, but HMRC publishes annual estimates to illustrate the impact of changes in tax rates in a document sexily entitled “Direct effects of illustrative tax changes”. It is worth saying, however, that these estimates are themselves uncertain, because of different levels of behavioural response to tax changes, the potential for wider macroeconomic impacts and, of course, the interaction with other measures.”
“As my hon. Friend says, and I thank him for it, the temporary reduced rate of VAT was introduced to support the cash flow and the viability of over 150,000 businesses and to protect 2.4 million jobs in the hospitality and tourism sectors. It was extended in September and extended again, and will now run until 31 March of this year. But the relief comes at a significant cost, and while the Government keep taxes under review, we have no current plans to extend it further. I remind my hon. Friend that there are many other aspects of our financial support that may be of assistance to his constituents.”
“We look to see how it will work and how it will address the needs that might exist and the concerns that might arise. We are not in a position to replicate the scheme in England and Wales, for the reasons I have described. As this crisis has evolved, we have continued to adapt and refine the targeting of our support so that it can reach more people. Let me reiterate that our guiding principle has been to help as many people and businesses as possible through the pandemic. We have protected the livelihoods of many millions of people around the country and provided vital support to those who require it most.”
“As I have said, we very much remain open to other constructive suggestions. The hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion asked what was happening with Northern Ireland and whether the Government regarded the directors of small companies as less trustworthy than others. The answer to the latter question is of course not. We make no judgment about trustworthiness. This is a structural feature of concern about the nature of the support we seek to offer and how this particular scheme addresses that concern. As for her question about Northern Ireland, I cannot comment on that. The scheme has been proposed by Invest Northern Ireland under the Northern Ireland Executive and, as far as I am aware, it is not in any way connected to the HMRC scheme.”
“At this time, however, although I and my officials by no means rely on the suggestion that the scheme intrinsically involves dividends—we recognise the construction of the scheme and the structure it represents; dividends are a means by which directors can be paid, but they are not intrinsic to the approach being taken in the scheme—I and my officials do not believe that as framed it overcomes the fundamental issues of protecting taxpayers’ money and safeguarding it against fraud and abuse. I have raised those concerns with the FSB and the other members of the DISS group, and I and Treasury officials remain ready to engage with them on the issue. In addition, as the hon. Members mentioned, my team is reviewing the targeted income grant support just received, as proposed by the gaps in support all-party parliamentary group.”
“Throughout the past few months, I and my colleagues in the Treasury have been exploring proposals from some of these organisations to see whether they can provide a viable solution to the gaps in coverage and, in particular, the issue facing directors. As has been mentioned by both hon. Members, these include the directors income support scheme, which has been suggested by the Federation of Small Businesses and others. I am very grateful for the care and support that have gone into drawing up the proposal and ask the House to recognise that we take it extremely seriously. I have met its supporters. I and my officials have had detailed conversations about the scheme and have sought further information and ideas on critical areas and potential concerns. This continuing engagement has taken some weeks.”
“By the same token, to seek to identify directors by means of proxies and assumptions would be an extremely onerous, imperfect and almost certainly inequitable method. The Government continue to work closely with a range of organisations to explore how these schemes can support directors better, as well as others who have found themselves ineligible for the main income support schemes. It is quite wrong to suggest that we have not engaged. Indeed, we welcome any proposal that constructively seeks to address gaps in support that may exist, but as we consider these options it is vital that we always bear in mind the need to protect taxpayers from fraud and abuse, which can escalate very rapidly once it is allowed to creep into the system.”
“This is because income from dividends is a return on investment in the company rather than wages. Under HMRC’s current reporting mechanisms, which it inherited from many years before this pandemic crisis struck us, and which have been designed to meet the needs of a tax system operating in normal times, it is not possible to distinguish between dividends derived from an individual’s own company and dividends from other sources. According to some external estimates, there are just over 700,000 active company directors, so if HMRC was to provide financial support to the 3.3 million people who typically declare dividend income on their tax returns, more than three quarters of those grants could potentially go to unintended recipients. This would be an irresponsible and unfair use of taxpayer money.”
“This approach has meant that the vast majority of those who have requested help have been able to obtain it, while the taxpayer has been protected. But it is important to say that the Government recognise that some people do not qualify for either support scheme, and this group includes some company directors. Let me turn to the specific situation facing this group. Directors who pay themselves a salary through a PAYE scheme are eligible for the coronavirus job retention scheme—that is, the furlough scheme. However, as Members will be aware, and as the hon. Gentleman has acknowledged, many directors pay themselves in large part through dividends while taking a small salary. Directors can claim from the furlough scheme on their salary, but dividends are not covered by this scheme, nor by the self-employment income support scheme.”
“Businesses may be eligible for loans and cash grants, along with tax cuts and deferrals for firms in sectors that have been hardest hit by the pandemic. We are also providing extra help to the families and individuals worst affected by this crisis with a wide-ranging package of welfare measures worth over £7 billion. The furlough and self-employment schemes have been designed with two overriding principles in mind: the need to target support at those who need it most, and the need to safeguard taxpayer funds against fraud, error and abuse. As the hon. Member for Midlothian has recognised, it is an obligation—a duty—on the Government to keep fraud, error and abuse to a minimum, and that is what we have sought to do.”
“More widely, I think colleagues will be aware of the support that the Government have provided to individuals and businesses throughout the pandemic and the guiding principles behind how that money has been distributed. At every stage of the crisis, we have sought to support as many people and businesses as we can as rapidly as possible. To that end, we have provided a wide-ranging package of financial support worth some £280 billion. Its measures include, notably, the furlough scheme, which has protected the jobs of almost 10 million workers, while the self-employment income support scheme has so far provided grants to almost 3 million people. Let me remind the House that those ineligible for assistance from one scheme may still be able to receive help from one of the many other sources of support that are in place.”
“I congratulate the hon. Member for Midlothian (Owen Thompson) on securing this debate, on his contribution, and on his tenacity and commitment in persisting with a debate on Burns night, when I am sure he has plenty of other distractions. I also thank the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) for her contribution. Let me start by assuring colleagues across the House that I absolutely recognise the difficulties faced by their constituents, and constituents across the country of MPs from every political party, who are company directors. However, as colleagues will no doubt be aware, this is not a simple matter to resolve, for reasons that I will outline.”
“They help to ensure that goods can continue to move smoothly and safely between Northern Ireland and Great Britain and that matters related to those movements can continue as anticipated. I hope that colleagues will join me in supporting the customs regulations, and I commend them to the Committee.”
“This statutory instrument makes minor amendments to the law on statistical data collected on the trade of goods between the United Kingdom and members of the EU, in order to take account of the Northern Ireland protocol. That is important in order to meet international reporting requirements. The instrument ensures that the legislation works properly, both in Northern Ireland, where EU statistical rules will continue to apply as a result of the Northern Ireland protocol, and in Great Britain, where they will not. As a result, HMRC will be able to continue to collect and process trade statistics in the same way as before the United Kingdom left the EU. These are technical but important customs regulations.”
“Secondly, this instrument allows CEMA enforcement powers—for example, the ability to seize and detain goods—to be used for the purpose of enforcing prohibitions and restrictions on the movement of goods, people and vehicles, between Great Britain and Northern Ireland, where there is no connection to customs duty. This instrument also ensures that the enforcement provisions at chapter III, part 1 of the Finance Act 1994 can be used in relation to the export of restricted or prohibited goods, as appropriate. Those include HMRC’s powers to require the production of documents, or to remove documents, or enter premises. That applies in Northern Ireland for the movement of goods from Northern Ireland to Great Britain. Finally, I turn to the area of trade statistics.”
“I turn now to the second area of legislation covered by this statutory instrument, which is the regulations relating to the Customs and Excise Management Act 1979, otherwise known as CEMA, and the Finance Act 1994. CEMA is the principal Act covering enforcement provisions relating to customs. First, CEMA provisions that relate to movements between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland are revoked by this statutory instrument. That is because CEMA has already been amended to reflect the Taxation (Cross-border Trade) Act 2018, whereas EU rules concerning the movement of goods continue to apply to those movements under the Northern Ireland protocol.”
“Moreover, the instrument requires economic operators to obtain a UK economic operation registration and identification number, otherwise known as a UK EORI number, to move non-qualifying Northern Ireland goods from Northern Ireland into Great Britain. An economic operator is a person who, through the course of their business, is involved in customs activity covered by customs legislation. It is necessary for those operators to have a UK EORI number starting with GB in order to make declarations or to get a customs decision in Great Britain. Registration is via a quick and simple process, and an EORI number will usually be issued straight away. This instrument also ensures that penalties apply to failures to comply with the requirements to submit an entry summary declaration, including the need to be registered for a UK EORI number.”
“Anti-avoidance measures are also in place to deter businesses from re-routing goods via Northern Ireland, if they do so in order to avoid United Kingdom duty or import formalities. In addition, the legislation states that for goods arriving by sea from Ireland, the Channel Islands or other nearby ports, where an entry summary declaration is required, that declaration must be submitted two hours before the vessel arrives at a port in Great Britain. Without that amendment, earlier submission would be required, which would be impractical given the relatively short duration of crossings. It also aligns the declaration time limits to those already in place for the same sea movements in the opposite direction.”
“Non-qualifying Northern Ireland goods include those that are not in free circulation in Northern Ireland, such as those subject to customs procedures—for example, inward processing—and goods that are in duty suspension or in an authorised temporary storage facility before they are moved to Great Britain. It also includes the trade of goods subject to specific obligations binding on the United Kingdom and the EU, such as those on endangered species or conflict diamonds. Those changes are necessary in order to allow safety and security declaration requirements to be maintained for non-qualifying Northern Ireland goods that move into Great Britain from Northern Ireland, while simultaneously allowing appropriate Northern Ireland traders to maintain unfettered access to the rest of the United Kingdom market.”
“Entry summary declarations contain safety and security information about the movement of goods. Declarations need to be submitted to HMRC, and are then risk-assessed before the goods arrive at the border. Those assessments are used in conjunction with intelligence-led targeting by Border Force in order to protect the security of the UK. The instrument removes the requirement for an entry summary declaration for the movement of qualifying Northern Ireland goods from Northern Ireland into Great Britain, in line with the UK’s wider commitments on unfettered access. The instrument also retains the requirement of an entry summary declaration for the movement of non-qualifying Northern Ireland goods from Northern Ireland into Great Britain.”
“Previous amendments to the relevant legislation applied across the whole of the UK; however, further changes were needed to address the specific arrangements for Northern Ireland. The instrument amends and modifies three areas of legislation. The first is legislation relating to customs safety and security procedures, including entry summary declarations and the registration of businesses for movements from Northern Ireland to Great Britain. The second is the application of the Customs and Excise Management Act 1979—CEMA—and the Finance Act 1994 to movements between Northern Ireland and Great Britain for non-duty purposes. Finally, the statutory instrument ensures that Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs can continue to collect and process trade statistics data in the same way as before the United Kingdom left the EU.”
“I beg to move, That the Committee has considered the Customs Miscellaneous Non-Fiscal Provisions and Amendments etc. (EU Exit) Regulations 2020 (S.I., 2020, No. 1624). What an unexpected pleasure to see you in the Chair, Dr Huq. I welcome you to the Panel of Chairs. The instrument came into force at the end of the transition period and is subject to the urgent made affirmative procedure. The instrument has already taken effect, but still requires approval by both Houses. Under the European Union withdrawal agreement and the Northern Ireland protocol, certain provisions of EU law continue to apply in Northern Ireland after the end of the transition period. In Great Britain, those provisions are modified to reflect the fact that the UK has left the EU.”
“Of course, it largely handles trade going into Northern Ireland, which is outside the purview of this statutory instrument, but I can inform her that since 1 January more than 99% of Trader Support Service-processed declarations have been completed within 15 minutes. The vast majority of calls are answered within 30 seconds. And the service has directly supported more than 12,000 consignments. I do not think that is consistent with the picture that she paints. Of course, it is an evolving and dynamic situation, but I think we can say that so far the arrangements put in place have been effective and are working fairly well. With that, I commend the statutory instrument to the Committee. Question put and agreed to .”
“There are no significant queues at Northern Irish ports, and individual issues are being quickly addressed by UK authorities. The freight levels that are going into and out of Northern Ireland ports are good and are close to or at the normal levels pre-Christmas, and volumes remain significantly higher than on GB-Ireland routes. The grace periods for businesses that are operating are working well. And Northern Ireland retailers report broadly adequate stock levels. The hon. Member mentioned the Trader Support Service. Of course concerns that she has and she raises here will be carefully attended to by HMRC and she is right to put those concerns on the public record. I will say to her that the Trader Support Service now has 28,000 businesses signed up.”
“I can remind her—she knows—that the Government made a commitment to unfettered access, and unfettered access for qualifying goods, as discussed, is what we have. There are, of course, non-qualifying goods and goods in duty suspension, and it has always been understood that goods for which duty has not yet been collected are ones that will need to be covered. And of course there are other things—conflict diamonds and the rest—which are governed by international agreements that already exist and which are being honoured. The hon. Member described the situation as regards Great Britain-Northern Ireland trade as “shambolic”. I do not think that is true at all. The picture so far, in these relatively early days, has been actually rather good. Goods are continuing to move effectively between Great Britain and Northern Ireland.”
“I thank the hon. Member for Houghton and Sunderland South for her comments and also for her party’s support for this important legislation. She asked a question about the Joint Committee. As she will be aware, the present statutory instrument relates to trade between Northern Ireland and Great Britain, which is a UK matter, but general relationships as regards the Northern Ireland protocol and the relationships with the EU in relation to that, are being handled by the Joint Committee, and I would expect them to continue to be handled in that way, and appropriately so—it seems that that mechanism is working well. The hon. Member asked a question about, as it were, the level of regulation being applied to movements across the border.”
“Some may subsequently receive a decision on a disability benefit claim made before they moved to universal credit, so in order to ensure that claimants receive their entitlement, this measure will be in place until the closure of the tax credits regime. The instrument also increases the time allowed for reviews of tax credit entitlement decisions where these circumstances apply. The changes I have outlined will support people with disabilities, and will further improve the efficiency of the welfare system. I hope Members will join me in supporting this legislation.”
“This legislative change extends to current and former tax credit claimants, and it applies to claimants who report the award of a qualifying disability benefit once the legislation is in force. HMRC commissioners have agreed to use their discretionary payment and management powers to review final decisions and pay claimants who provide notification, within the statutory time limit, of the award of a qualifying disability benefit on or after 6 April 2020, and in anticipation of the order coming into force. HMRC estimates that as a result of this legislation, up to 300 claimants a year are likely to gain tax credit disability elements on which they would otherwise have missed out. It is particularly important that the Government make this change as tax credits come to a close, and as increasing numbers of people move on to universal credit.”
“A final decision is typically made when a claimant ends their tax credit claim and moves to universal credit, or when someone renews their claim at the end of the tax year. This legislation will allow HMRC to review tax credit awards after it has made a final decision, and to determine if disability elements are due. As for how the legislation will be applied, as long as a claimant reports the award of a qualifying disability benefit within one month of the award decision date, HMRC will determine whether the claimant would have been entitled to tax credit disability elements. Claimants will then be paid tax credit disability elements, irrespective of the length of time it takes for the qualifying disability benefit claim to be determined, and of whether they have a continuing tax credit award.”
“Tax credit claimants with a disability, or who have a child with a disability, and who receive qualifying disability benefits, such as disability living allowance or the personal independence payment, are entitled to corresponding tax credit disability elements in their award. For 2020-21, the disabled worker element is set at £3,220 per year, with a severe disability element of £1,390 paid to qualifying claimants in addition to this. The disabled child element is set at £3,415 for each child with a disability, with an additional £1,385 available for each child with a severe disability. Under existing legislation, Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs does not in all cases have the power to review these elements if it has made a final decision on a claimant’s tax credit entitlement for the tax year.”
“I beg to move, That the Committee has considered the draft Tax Credits Review and Appeals (Amendment) Order 2020. The order was laid before the House on 15 October. The Government are committed to a welfare system that ensures that work pays and is fair to the taxpayer, and to a system that protects the most vulnerable people in our society. This legislation allows the Government to review tax credit awards and, where appropriate, apply disability elements in retrospect. The legislative change that we are making allows tax credit disability elements to be fully backdated, and provides equal outcomes for former and existing claimaints with a disability, or who have a child with a disability. I will first outline the background to this issue.”
“There are established procedures for properly assessing and calibrating those powers; there is internal sign-off and potential review by the commissioners, and ultimately, of course, parliamentary procedures by which these issues can be referred to Ministers. With that in mind, I ask Members to support the legislation. Question put and agreed to.”
“From an HMRC and Government standpoint, we are extremely careful about the issue of the application of powers in general. She will be aware that we have done considerable work on safeguards to ensure that the application and creation of powers is measured, and is done in a way that properly respects the concerns of this House. We are regularly chastised by parliamentary Committees, notably the Lords Economic Affairs Committee, when they judge that the Government are pushing too far on the creation of powers, or that HMRC is pushing too far on their application, so it is right to raise that question.”
“I thank the hon. Lady for her questions. She is right to focus on the point about minor errors; they do occur in drafting legislation. One of the tasks of a Minister in my position is to take through the House, from time to time, legislative corrections to the drafting errors that occur despite very careful scrutiny by officials, tax experts, the legislative drafting experts—parliamentary counsel—and the rest. It is certainly an ambition of the Government to keep these to an absolute minimum—or, in a perfect world, to eliminate them altogether. The hon. Lady’s questions on proposed new section 21C are sufficiently detailed for me to think that the correct approach will be to write to her separately with the detailed responses that she is seeking.”
“Only in those circumstances would Parliament be asked to support the use of so-called “notwithstanding” provisions, as described.”
“I am grateful to everyone who has contributed to the debate. I will address the proposed amendments and then come to the specific points that have been raised. New clauses 1 and 2, tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Sir William Cash), would, if adopted, mean that the provisions in the Bill would apply notwithstanding any domestic or international law. The House will be aware that on 17 September, the Government set out that Parliament would be asked to support the use of so-called “notwithstanding” provisions in clauses 44, 45 and 47 of the United Kingdom Internal Market Bill and any similar subsequent provisions in a Finance Bill, but only in circumstances where the fundamental purposes of the Northern Ireland protocol would be undermined.”
“With those remarks, I would urge the House to resist these amendments.”
“They were themselves a response to a perfectly plain concern, which every Member of the House should feel, that, as matters stood, even a bag of salad would be considered an at-risk good, a consequence of the previous understanding that was patently absurd and been removed by this change. The hon. Member for Warwick and Leamington (Matt Western) talked about a last-minute approach, but I would remind him that when this point, or this attempted point, was made by the shadow Chief Secretary, the hon. Member for Houghton and Sunderland South (Bridget Phillipson), I asked her if she could recall a single occasion when the EU had ever failed to negotiate except at the very last minute of a negotiation, and she was unable to point to such a case. That is, I think, the principal reason why we are in the position that we are in.”