Edward Argar
MP for Melton and Syston · Conservative · United Kingdom
“I will not keep the Committee long. I am very pleased to see the hon. and gallant Gentleman, the Minister, still in post, as this is a policy area that he has cared deeply about throughout his life. I share the broad support for the instrument expressed by the shadow Minister, my hon.”
“I appreciate it may be set out in the 2006 or 2025 primary parent legislation to these draft regulations, but if he can, I would be grateful for a little clarification. Finally, paragraph 10.1 of the explanatory memorandum refers to the legislation being continuously monitored.”
“I live in my patch and I know that there will be genuine local fury at the contempt this Government have shown for my constituents in approving a Leicester city land grab, which has cross-party opposition locally.”
“Lady was right to highlight in her remarks the importance of timely discharge from hospital as a key element of whether we can achieve that flow into hospital beds and have hospital bed capacity to allow an A&E department or emergency department to function.”
“That should not be a challenge; I suspect that that data is already extant in some part of the system. She is proposing a very moderate measure, which would pull all that together in one place, and allow it to be focused on and looked at in the round, rather than in disparate little penny packets of data.”
“Gentleman’s point, however, that with many of these things—both clinicians and coroners grapple with this—it is often complex to determine the actual most significant contributory factor. My hon.”
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“Gentleman quite rightly talked about the approach to sentencing at headline level, and the challenges of short sentences. They are often so short that we cannot get to grips with the underlying challenges that an individual faces, but long enough to break fragile ties and affect relationships, jobs and accommodation. I am very pleased that, on this issue, he appears to be following the approach set out by the Lord Chancellor, who suggests tougher sentences for those who commit the most heinous crimes, and tough community sentences as an alternative to short custodial sentences, though obviously discretion will rest with the sentencer.”
“He was right to highlight the five key purposes of sentencing. I highlight to him—although I am doing so from memory, so I will write to him to correct myself if I am incorrect—that reoffending is down by 9%, so again, that is working, but there is always more to do. He is right about the importance of substance misuse treatment programmes in getting people off substances that may drive their criminal behaviour. Their importance extends beyond prison, to when people are on release. My recollection is that there is a 54% reduction in reoffending if those programmes are continued in the community, the treatment is sustained, and the NHS, local authorities and prison authorities work together to make sure that it is in place. We are seeing positive outcomes there. The hon.”
“Of course, every assault is one too many, and we continue to work to improve the security of our prisons and reduce violence and the number of assaults within them, but I highlight that degree of positive progress to him. The measures that we are putting in place to reduce violence in our prisons estate include our £100 million security investment to clamp down on the weapons, drugs and mobile phones that fuel violence and crime behind bars, and the continued rollout of PAVA—a synthetic pepper spray—in the adult male estate to protect staff and prisoners from incidents of serious violence, alongside de-escalation training for officers, which is also playing an important part. Before I turn specifically to Bedford, let me address some of the broad-brush points that the hon. Gentleman made.”
“Gentleman is absolutely right to highlight that we are also improving the retention of staff: the resignation rate among frontline prison officers is down by almost three percentage points compared with last year. There is more to do, but that is progress, and it is important that we continue on that trajectory. The hon. Gentleman also rightly highlighted prison safety, which I will address in a broader context before I turn to his local prison. We continue to take the necessary action to make our prisons safe both for frontline staff and for prisoners. The overall rate of assaults is 26% lower than prior to the pandemic.”
“As he alluded to, the increase in numbers means that, as we grow the workforce, which is a positive thing, we are also bringing new joiners and staff to the prison service, who will, by logic, have fewer years of service under their belt. It is important that we continue doing what we are doing to retain experienced officers alongside them as part of their mentoring and the development of their skills. We have improved starting salaries for officers, which have risen from £22,000 to £31,000 since 2019. The staffing picture is improving in prisons across the country: in the 12 months from last September—the latest figures I have—the number of officers has increased by 1,441 full-time equivalents. The hon.”
“By regrettable contrast, the plans under Jack Straw in the last Labour Government were to build 7,500 places in three Titan prisons, and, to the best of my recollection, they never got built at all. In respect of staffing, I join the hon. Gentleman in rightly paying tribute to all those who work in our prisons—prison officers and all the staff in a range of capacities—for their work. Since March 2017, we have also increased the number of prison officers in public sector prisons by 4,655, and we made a commitment in 2021 to hire up to 5,000 prison officers across public and private prisons by the mid-2020s.”
“At the same time, we are creating thousands of places through the expansion of prisons with additional house blocks and major refurbishments at existing prisons, and by rolling out rapid deployment cells across the estate—the first 380 or so have already been delivered at six sites. The hon. Gentleman raised a specific point about Bedford. There are no plans to re-roll Bedford Prison at this point. I appreciate that he may be disappointed by that, but it is important that I am open with him, as I will seek to be throughout my speech. I would gently say, in respect of prison capacity, that we are getting on with delivering that increase in modern, effective rehabilitative prison places through those six new prisons.”
“I agree that the circumstances leading to it are not acceptable. Before I turn to the specifics that he raised about the situation at Bedford, I hope that he will allow me a moment to remind the House of the context—his speech rightly ranged more widely than Bedford alone—and of the steps that we are taking to improve prisons and justice across the country, as my right hon. and learned Friend the Lord Chancellor set out in his statement of 16 October. On prison capacity, the House will be aware that we are building six new prisons as we create an additional 20,000 places to deliver the biggest prison expansion in over a century. We have already delivered just shy of 6,000 of these additional places, and the brand-new category C resettlement prison, HMP Fosse Way, opened its doors in May this year and will house up to 1,715 prisoners.”
“If I may briefly crave your indulgence, Mr Deputy Speaker, I wish to put on the record my tribute to the former Chancellor of the Exchequer, Alistair Darling, on the news of his sad passing. He was a man of intellect, integrity and ability, and had a deep commitment to public service. He will be missed by all in this House. We send our condolences and sympathies to his family. I am grateful to the hon. Member for Bedford (Mohammad Yasin) for securing this important debate. As he knows, I am deeply concerned by the recent findings of HM inspectorate of prisons at HMP Bedford, particularly in regard to safety and living conditions, and I have been clear that the situation needs to improve quickly. This is, as he set out clearly, the second time that an urgent notification has been invoked at HMP Bedford.”
“I am afraid I rather selfishly got reshuffled to another Department shortly afterwards, but that is now back under my portfolio, so I look forward to discussing it with the right hon. Lady in future, perhaps outwith this Chamber. I welcome the focus of today’s debate. It is important that we have these opportunities to debate prison, probation and justice in Wales. I am grateful for the significant contributions the right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd has made on issues around justice in Wales over a number of years, and I look forward to continuing that discussion with her. In case time becomes short, I will say at the outset that I am very happy to meet the right hon. Lady, if that would be helpful, to discuss the very specific context in Wales around the prison system, probation and justice.”
“As always, it is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Gray. May I congratulate the right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Liz Saville Roberts)? It is always a pleasure to serve opposite her in debates, but there is always a degree of trepidation as to whether I will successfully pronounce the name of her constituency. She will recall that in 2018 to 2019, when I was last at the Ministry of Justice, not only did I have responsibility for female offenders and produce the female offender strategy, I was responsible for relationships with the devolved administrations, including Wales. I have a feeling—a vague recollection—that we may even have debated this in the past in my previous incarnation. It was indeed during that time that we put in place the initial building blocks for the Swansea residential women’s centre.”
“Her point about those with an address in Wales, and the higher proportion of such people in prison, is important and worthy of further consideration and discussion.”
“When I meet the right hon. Lady, I am very happy for her to suggest what she might like to discuss in that meeting. Our six prisons in Wales across five sites play a crucial role in our prison estate. They keep the public safe by providing a safe and secure environment that protects the public from serious offenders and reduce crime by helping to break the cycle of reoffending by focusing on proven interventions. The right hon. Lady highlighted proportions—for example, the number of people per 100,000 of the population in prisons in Wales and the large number of local authority areas they come from. However, I gently say that the same is true of prisons in England, because we treat it as one jurisdiction. Prisoners from England serve in Wales and, on occasion, prisoners from Wales serve in England.”
“I respect the position of her party, but we believe that the single jurisdiction continues to work effectively and is the right approach. I suspect she and I will debate that when we meet. Question put and agreed to .”
“For the year ending March 2023, these initiatives have resulted in 29.4% of leavers from our Welsh prisons being employed six months post release, which is an increase from 19% in 2021-22 and higher than the overall national figure of 23.5%. Learning and skills continue to perform well. On accommodation, the right hon. Lady is right that there is an important partnership with local authorities to deliver on that. Regarding Friday release, yesterday I signed the statutory instrument beginning the commencement of the powers this House passed to stop Friday releases. I am conscious of time, so the last point I would make, as it is central to the point made by the right hon. Lady, is on her call for devolution.”
“There is clearly more work to do, but the trajectory is going in the right direction. Wales has been fully committed to delivering the key principles in our strategy to tackle reoffending. Prison and probation colleagues in Wales have worked together to provide an enhanced service to males who receive custodial sentences of less than six months. It includes education skills and a new job-matching service. HMPPS Wales has successfully introduced employment hubs and prison employment leads in all six prisons and has increased the number of men going into employment on release to 30%. We have innovative housing workshops at HMP Berwyn, rail skills courses at HMP Cardiff, and a vast array of vocational qualifications and training across the estate.”
“Lady mentioned that 14% of the population in Welsh prisons is on remand. I would say to her that that is lower than the percentage of the prison population on remand in England and overall across England and Wales, which stands at 15%, but it is in roughly the same space across the country. Different prisons have different percentages, even in England. The remand population has gone up from about 9% of the prison population to about 15% in the past two or three years. It is one of the drivers of capacity challenges across the whole system. Our prisons in Wales are working hard to rehabilitate offenders, enabling our lowest-risk offenders to turn away from crime and change their ways. The reoffending rate for adult males released from prisons in Wales was 34.7% in 2011. That has dropped to 28.9% in 2021.”
“Additionally, I am pleased that we are taking action to improve prison safety and security through a range of measures, including supporting those at risk of violence, helping them to move away from violent behaviours and delivering on investments in security to disrupt the smuggling of contraband, such as drugs, mobile phones and weapons—the sort of things that drive violence in prison and undermine safety. The right hon. Lady mentioned healthcare provision. That is the responsibility of the Welsh Government and the NHS in Wales, and we have an effective working relationship with them on that. The levels in that, as is the case for prisons in England, are the responsibility of the Department of Health and Social Care and NHS England. There is always a separation there, we believe that the relationship is a strong one. The right hon.”
“The largest Welsh prison, HMP Berwyn, which can house 2,000 inmates, does not have any prisoners held in crowded accommodation, as all double cells have been purposely designed and built to hold two prisoners safely and in decent conditions. We do recognise, however, that in line with the current pressures across our entire adult male custodial estate, that there are relatively high levels of crowding in some Welsh prisons. That is not specific or unique to Wales. That is why the Lord Chancellor set out the decisive action we are taking to alleviate this in his statement to the House last month.”
“They have achieved some of the strongest results in performance across 117 prisons in England and Wales in 2022-23, with all prisons in Wales rated good or outstanding within the HM Prison and Probation Service performance framework. It is important to highlight the fact that credit is due to the hard-working prison officers and the staff who run these facilities in Wales. I want to put that on record. The Ministry of Justice has a duty to ensure that Welsh prisons maintain their strong performance ratings and operate in a safe and effective way, with offenders being held in decent and humane conditions. That means making sure that no prison exceeds a safe maximum operating limit, which currently stands at 5,592 as of October 2023 across those six prisons in Wales.”
“Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd on that, and it was at the heart of the female offender strategy I wrote back then. I recognise that a very short sentence can often be long enough to destroy the bits of life that are vaguely ordered—a job, family relationships, or the property or flat that is rented—but far too short to make any meaningful impact on tackling the underlying causes of the offending, whether that is substance misuse, mental health issues, trauma or a whole range of other things. The right hon. Lady is right to make that point. I am pleased to be able to say that prisons in Wales are making a significant contribution to the delivery of our vision.”
“I will turn to healthcare, local authority support for housing and similar in a moment. We are clear that those who pose a danger to our society must be locked up, with the worst offenders locked away for as long as it takes to protect the public. However, to continue to put the worst offenders away for longer, we must use prisons better so that there are always sufficient spaces to lock up the most dangerous criminals. That is why, last month, the Lord Chancellor gave our commitment to reforming the justice system so that it keeps the worst of society behind bars for longer, but rehabilitates offenders who will be let out and gives the least high-risk offenders a path away from a life of crime. He set out his intention for tough community sentences rather than short stints in prisons. I have to say that I share the view of the right hon.”
“I am pleased to say that the proportion of prison leavers in employment six months after their release has more than doubled in the two years to March 2023. We have delivered significant reforms in this area, among which are prison employment leads to match prisoners to jobs on release, and business-led employment advisory boards that partner prisoners with industry to benefit from their expertise. While this is very significant progress, there is always more to do, and we are determined to continue to see that figure climb higher.”
“May I take this opportunity to pay tribute to my predecessor as prisons and probation Minister, my right hon. Friend the Member for East Hampshire (Damian Hinds), for his work in this space? My hon. Friend, as always, is absolutely spot-on that securing employment and preventing homelessness are essential to tackling reoffending. Those in work are nearly 10% less likely to reoffend. We work closely with the Department for Work and Pensions to ensure that prison leavers have effective support to prepare for employment on release. For example, prisoners can meet a DWP prison work coach from 12 weeks before release to provide advice on benefits and employment, including day one access to DWP employment programmes, and we continue to foster those strong links.”
“I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, who is absolutely right to highlight just how much veterans, even when they have got themselves into bother, can offer the community through rehabilitation and through work. Although I have not yet had the opportunity to engage with my right hon. Friend the Minister for Veterans’ Affairs, I intend to do so. A whole range of opportunities can work for veterans. Just this weekend, I saw the ex-jockey Ryan Hatch on ITV Racing talking about his work highlighting equine job opportunities—which are often appropriate for veterans—in prisons. I look forward to working with my right hon. Friend—and, indeed, with the hon. Gentleman, if he wishes—on this issue.”
“By the end of the spending review period, we will have invested nearly £4 billion to deliver an additional 20,000 modern prison places and ensure that the right conditions are in place to rehabilitate prisoners, cut crime and protect the public. The key to effective rehabilitation is the provision of education and skills training, to increase a prisoner’s employability and ensure that they can access employment upon release, alongside providing support for substance misuse, treatment and so on. We are also investing to improve rehabilitative spaces in prison, having delivered our employment hubs, where prisoners can access job vacancies. We will renovate prison workshops through our HMP academies programme.”
“If the hon. Lady would like to write to me, I will be happy to look into that specific case. But in broad terms, in the last financial year this Government invested £217 million in capital and maintenance spending, up from £149 million in 2010-2011. That includes, since 2020, delivering £73 million of capital maintenance projects across Yorkshire. Security is not a dirty word in this context but is vital to creating conditions in which people can be safe and rehabilitated. We continue to work closely with the NHS on improving things such as mental health support for those in prison, but I am happy to engage with her on this issue.”
“We work closely with education providers to drive up standards of teaching and improve academic outcomes. The curriculum offered to children in custody is needs-led and determined by individual aspirations, literacy and numeracy levels, interests and sentence length. Where education provision is inadequate, we will hold providers to account to ensure that children receive the education they need to turn away from crime.”
“In a previous life as a Minister, as it were, I had youth justice in my portfolio back in 2018-19, and I had the opportunity to visit Feltham at that time. I worked with Charlie Taylor on delivering those recommendations into practice. I am pleased to tell the hon. Lady that we anticipate the first secure school opening in 2024.”
“It is nice to be taking questions from the hon. Lady in her new role as shadow Minister, rather than when she used to question me in the Justice Committee. She is absolutely right to highlight the challenges of violence across the youth estate, which have been too high for too long, and we continue to work hard across all sites to address it. Among the measures put in place, we are ensuring that each child receives a full needs assessment, covering education, psychology, resettlement, health and behavioural support. Education and skills play a vital part in helping children and young people to get their lives back on course, but that must be in the context of a secure environment, because security has to be the premise on which all those other benefits can be delivered.”
“The hon. Gentleman is right to highlight this, as every death in custody is a tragedy. We continue to do all we can to improve the safety of prisoners, both in that respect and in respect of reducing instances of self-harm. We are continuing to deliver on our safety commitment outlined in the prisons strategy White Paper, including by introducing more ligature-resistant cells, funding a study to understand the extent of deaths, and rolling out an emotional resilience and peer-support programme in six prisons. Of course, our staff are vital to this, and I take the opportunity to pay tribute to them; we are investing to support them to continue to do that work.”
“I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his question. He is absolutely right to highlight not only the right of people to practise their religion, but the important role that that can play for those individuals in coping with prison life, rehabilitation and getting on the straight and narrow when they come out. I am happy to engage with him directly on any specific case that he wishes to bring up, and it is an issue that I am happy to look at.”
“I am grateful to my hon. Friend, who knows about what he speaks. I pay tribute to him for his work in the criminal justice system. He highlights an example that sounds extremely interesting. I would be happy to meet him to hear more about it and to see where we can take things from there.”
“The Lord Chancellor wishes to thank the consultees for their detailed and wide-ranging contributions in helping him make this technical legal decision. On that basis, I commend the draft instrument to the House.”
“A likelihood ratio approach must be used to compare the weight of evidence. In reaching this determination the JA”— the Secretary of State— “has taken into account the views of the JLG and the conclusions of its deliberations on this application. The Health & Safety Executive (NI), Office for Nuclear Regulation, Environmental Agency, Scottish Environmental Protection Agency, Natural Resources Wales and Department of the Environment for Northern Ireland have confirmed that this application falls outside of their regulatory interests.” The UK Health Security Agency, the Health and Safety Executive, and the Food Standards Agency were also consulted, and they noted a number of points. Alongside that, of course, we consulted the Ministry of Justice’s own science department.”
“In reaching a decision, the Ministry of Justice—as set out in the additional background document supplied to the Committee—stated that the justifying authority “has determined that the proposed practice was a new class or type of practice and that this can be justified, subject to the following conditions: Biological age assessment involving ionising radiation is limited to radiography of the third molar and/or of the hand/wrist only. The use of computed tomography for the purposes of assessing age is not permitted. The results of radiography of the third molar and/or of the hand/wrist must only be used to assess whether there is more support of the claimed age of the age disputed person, or the assigned age social workers have assessed them to be following a Merton compliant age assessment.”
“It is for the other SI debate to consider the merits of the policy itself. The justifying authority has determined that the proposed practice by the Home Office is justified. This draft instrument provides the legal basis for the use of that practice. The justification decision was made through thorough review of the proposed practice. It considered and weighed the individual and societal benefits, such as preventing children from being misidentified as adults and ensuring that individuals are treated appropriately within the immigration system, as well as addressing the financial costs to the state against the detriments of the practice.”
“Members appreciate that I can speak only to this justification decision, as it is imperative that the justifying authority is functionally separate from other persons concerned with the promotion or utilisation of the practice. I will speak only to the use of X-rays as a scientific method of age assessment; any other method falls outside the scope of this statutory instrument. I understand that the parallel debate on the Home Office’s statutory instrument on scientific age assessment under the Nationality and Borders Act 2022 is due to be held in another Delegated Legislation Committee this evening. That is the right forum for the Home Office to outline how it intends to use this technical approval to support its policies and to field any questions outside the scope of the draft instrument.”
“Following a thorough statutory application, consultation and decision-making process, the justifying authority has determined that the Home Office’s proposed use of X-rays is justified. If Parliament approves the draft instrument, the Government will bring it into force at the earliest possible date to allow the Home Office to use that justification in bringing forward its age-assessment policies. This SI legally formalises the decision by the justifying authority—the Secretary of State under the 2004 regulations—and sets out the parameters under which the approval is to be granted, which have been communicated to the Home Office. I recognise that there has been a lively debate more broadly on age assessment, which the draft instrument relates to, but I am sure that hon.”
“The draft statutory instrument sets out the affirmative decision made by the Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice on the Home Office’s application to use ionising radiation, also known as X-rays, as a scientific method of age assessment for age-disputed individuals subject to immigration control. The instrument is technical and legal, but none the less important. Under the Justification of Practices Involving Ionising Radiation Regulations 2004, the Lord Chancellor has the powers as the nominated justifying authority to determine whether the individual or societal benefits of the practice outweigh the health detriments, and therefore whether it can be justified.”
“I beg to move, That the Committee has considered the draft Justification Decision (Scientific Age Imaging) Regulations 2023. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Gray. It is also a pleasure in my new brief, as Minister of State for Prisons, Parole and Probation, to be shadowed by the hon. Member for Brentford and Isleworth. We know each other well and, while I suspect there may be occasions in this room or beyond when we disagree, she knows that I have huge respect for her. I look forward to working with her in this role.”
“There is a very good reason for that: as I set out very clearly, under the Justification of Practices Involving Ionising Radiation Regulations 2004, the justifying authority is required to be functionally separate from any decisions made on how the policy will operate and the decision made on it. I appreciate the points made by both the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Brentford and Isleworth, and the hon. Member for Hemsworth. They made their points well and I suspect that they are at least in scope of the debate because the Chair did not stop them. They are on the record.”
“The vast majority of points made by the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Brentford and Isleworth (Ruth Cadbury), and the hon. Member for Hemsworth (Jon Trickett) are outside the scope of this debate. This debate is not about the policy, the implementation or staffing of that policy, or otherwise. It is about a technical legal decision to allow the Home Office, in another Delegated Legislation Committee in just under an hour and a half’s time, to bring forward the actual policy proposals and put them before a Delegated Legislation Committee for debate.”
“There are a number of points to consider. On informed consent, that would again be a question for the Home Office as the authority wishing to carry out this policy. Similarly, on the question of a scientific method of age assessment, it is recognised in the documents that the Government have put forward that assessing an individual’s age is an incredibly complex task and there is no single methodology, scientific or otherwise, can determine a person’s age with absolute precision. However, as I set out earlier, this will be one consideration in weighing up the evidence based on either the individual’s declared age or a social worker’s assessment of it.”
“As the justifying authority, we will undertake a review if, for example, new or important information is acquired about efficacy or consequences, other techniques or technologies that have the same objectives become available, or there are any obvious relevant changes in practice, science or technology. I should be explicit that the statutory instrument does not include a statutory review, but the Ministry of Justice as the justifying authority will continue to monitor and review the use of X-rays in this context as the shadow Minister would expect. I suspect that the spokesman for the Scottish National party, the hon. Member for Glasgow South West, may reprise a number of the arguments and questions that he has just put to me to a Home Office Minister as the applying authority in another Committee in about an hour.”
“The point I would make in respect of the vast majority of cases, the justifying authority is looking to see whether, under those regulations, it is possible for the Home Office to proceed in this way. The hon. Member for Hemsworth quoted from page six of the report. I would also highlight another quote on page six: “The decision to use X-ray imaging appears well considered and appropriate to minimise any individual’s radiation exposure.” That is what the Secretary of State has been looking at in this context: whether the measure meets the threshold of those regulations for the Home Office as the applying authority to bring forward specific proposals, which it will do. The shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Brentford and Isleworth, did make one point that is directly relevant to these regulations, which concerned how a review would work.”
“Member for Glasgow South West has opposed me in Committee before—because I am deliberately drawing that distinction between the justifying authority, which is functionally separate in looking at what it actually has to look at as the MOJ, from the Home Office as the Department that has to introduce the specific regulations on how this policy would work. On that basis, I commend this decision and this statutory instrument to the Committee. Question put,”
“I am grateful to the SNP spokesman for that. In considering this as the justifying authority, the Secretary of State has had due regard to those named consultees that, under the 2004 Regulations, he is obliged to consult on the justification decisions. It would be for the Home Office to set out what discussions it had had—I think it was either the hon. Member for Brentford and Isleworth or the hon. Member for Hemsworth who talked about local authorities, campaign groups and others—in how they designed that policy and what they proposed when they bring that forward. That would be a matter for Home Office Ministers. I am perhaps being less forthcoming than I normally would be—the hon.”
“The crimes associated with VAWG are abhorrent, which is why we have already taken significant action to strengthen the criminal justice system’s response to it, including for example through our end-to-end rape review, driving up prosecutions, and the introduction of new protections for victims through the landmark Domestic Abuse Act 2021. Much has been done, but we are ambitious in wanting to go further.”
“In June 2022, we announced our ambitious specialist sexual violence support project in three Crown courts, aimed at improving facilities and technology. On the hon. Gentleman’s specific question, I would urge a degree of caution on those proposals. Listing is a judicial prerogative, and it is important we retain flexibility in the use of the court estate to maximise the use of courts and judges’ time for a range of offences and to meet the needs of the courts.”