Victoria Atkins
MP for Louth and Horncastle · Conservative · United Kingdom
“Oh dear. This may be the last time the Secretary of State gets to give such an inadequate answer to what is a reasonable question about her grip on her Department. But let us look at Labour’s wider chaos.”
“In recent weeks, DEFRA’s quangos have made headlines: the Environment Agency is failing to prosecute waste criminals, instead going after virtuous volunteers who are cleaning up the rivers for it; Natural England is demanding more madcap fish schemes at Hinkley Point C, on top of its recommended £700 million fish disco policy, all of whic…”
“There are many questions still left unanswered in this report, and I hope that the Secretary of State will try to answer them rather than deflect, because that has been noticed. The plan looks to double the funding for Environment Agency inspections. Why are this Government focusing on bureaucracy rather than helping farmers survive?”
“In another leap from reality, the Government’s negotiations with the EU get barely a mention in this document, despite the enormous consequences they will have for farming businesses. CropLife UK has estimated that this EU reset could drain £810 million from UK farms and sacrifice almost 9,000 jobs from our rural constituencies.”
“We Conservatives view DEFRA as a vital economic Department, so we agree with its efforts to recalculate farming and food producers’ contributions to the economy. By the way, I note that Reform calls itself the farmer’s friend, yet there is not a single Reform MP in the Chamber.”
“As Labour MPs and Ministers in the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs voted repeatedly for the family farm and family business taxes, DEFRA Ministers shut down farming payments without notice, including the SFI. Sadly, the record of this Government is rising food prices and a record number of farms closing.”
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“As I have said, I have already met the Prisoner Officers Association. I hope I was very clear when we first met that this was the beginning of a constructive and positive relationship. I will happily meet the POA, of course, and I would be delighted if my hon. Friend the Member for Sittingbourne and Sheppey would join me in that meeting. I want to be frank, though. I do not want there to be any claims of inadvertently misleading people. I cannot commit today to discussions on pensions per se, but I am very happy—as I have said in the past, in fairness—to listen to the Prison Officers Association and its members. I am very keen to do so. I am conscious of giving my hon. Friend time to respond. The retirement age for prison officers is linked to their pension arrangements.”
“I am conscious that I have only four minutes, so I will continue. My hon. Friend the Member for Sittingbourne and Sheppey has already made the point that we have tried to make change on this before. When the Prison Officers Association membership were balloted eight years ago, they did not accept the package to retire at the lower age of 65 with heavily subsidised additional contributions to the scheme. Although POA members rejected the offer, the Prison Governors Association accepted it and as a result some manager grade staff now have a lower pension age. Another offer was made in 2017, in which prison officers would have incurred no cost to access a pension at the age of 65, but again this was rejected by a union ballot union.”
“I will finish, if I may, because I want to deal with the points about security and I must finish at 5.48 pm in order to give my hon. Friend the Member for Sittingbourne and Sheppey time to respond. Any lowering of the pension age for prison officers would invariably mean that their pension contributions would have to increase. Prison officers’ pension contributions are less than half those of schemes for firefighters or police officers.”
“It is intended to be both age and gender neutral, and I am sure colleagues will understand that we must be careful not to discriminate on the basis of age in such circumstances. I am conscious of the huge contribution that older and more experienced officers make. They can often de-escalate situations and they can help newer recruits to learn to do the job as well as they can. On the important issue of security, we are investing £100 million in a prison security package that includes X-ray scanners, body-worn cameras and PAVA spray, which we want to roll out alongside rigid bar handcuffs to give officers the support of those items. I will sit down now, Sir Charles, but I look forward to discussing this further with hon. Members.”
“I do not want to waste time by repeating myself, but I will meet the POA. I cannot agree on the Floor of the Chamber to negotiate, but I hope that the POA, having met me, understands that I make that offer of a meeting in good faith. I want to emphasise the point about fitness tests. The right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Liz Saville Roberts) made an interesting point about menopause in particular. Since 2001, officers have had to pass an annual fitness test that is based on the requirements of the role, and which tests strength, muscular endurance, speed and agility. No specific adjustments have been made in relation to menopause because we must apply those tests equally. However, the test is based on the specific needs of the individual.”
“I start by thanking all prison and probation officers and staff across the country. They do an absolutely vital job protecting the public and rehabilitating offenders, and they deserve our thanks and our acknowledgment. Pay awards for this financial year across HMPPS are subject to the public sector pay pause, which was imposed due to the covid-19 emergency, but I welcome the Chancellor’s recent Budget announcement on public sector pay and the fact that from 2022, it will return to a normal pay setting process.”
“I am delighted to inform the right hon. Gentleman that I have met not just the POA but the Prison Governors Association and many of the smaller unions that represent the interests of vital members of staff such as chaplains and educationists, who play a really important role in the prison system. I very much look forward to working with the POA and others not just on matters of pay but on ensuring that we value their role in the prison system. I want prison officers to feel safe in their workplace, for example. That is not up for question. We should be making sure that they feel safe, and that is one of my priorities as Minister with responsibility for prisons.”
“If they leave prison, we want them to be able to re-enter society and we want to protect the public.”
“I thank the hon. Lady for drawing the House’s attention to that tragic case. She will know that we asked the ombudsman to examine it in detail, and we are very grateful to the ombudsman for having gone through it so that the Department, HMPPS and other providers can learn the lessons from that terrible incident. We have set out extensive plans to help women who are pregnant, and mums and babies in prison, and that framework has been published and is being very much implemented. On her wider point about supporting women in custody, we have the female offenders strategy. The Government maintain our aim that we should support women outside custody and give magistrates the confidence to impose community sentences, but we must ensure that when women are in the female prison estate, they are supported, but importantly, rehabilitated.”
“I am extremely grateful for that and, as always, I continue to encourage councils that have not felt able to make offers or those that can perhaps offer more places of housing to do so. This is a national effort. We are all determined to give Afghan people a warm welcome in this country, and I look forward to working with colleagues across the House to achieve this.”
“While we appreciate the need to act quickly, it is also important that we do this properly and ensure that any scheme meets the needs of those it is being set up to support. Our work to support Afghan citizens has not paused while the resettlement scheme is being developed. The Home Office is continuing to work with partners across Government, including in the Department for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities, given that many of those requiring support are in fact British nationals, to provide permanent housing for the thousands already relocated here. Some of the people evacuated will form the first part of the 5,000 people being resettled. I am pleased to tell the House that over 200 councils have agreed to house those who have been evacuated.”
“That work spans across Government, charities, other organisations, local authorities and communities. The aim is to give Afghans arriving here the best possible start to life in the United Kingdom, while also making sure that local services can work effectively to support people. On 13 September, I made a statement, and the Home Office published a comprehensive policy statement, confirming that the Government have committed to take around 5,000 people in the first year and a total of up to 20,000 people over the coming years under the Afghan citizens resettlement scheme. The statement also set out who would be eligible and who would be prioritised, and how we will work with the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees and other organisations to ensure the ACRS provides a safe route for vulnerable people at risk.”
“I promised in my statement to the House on 13 September that I would update the House regularly on Operation Warm Welcome. I am in the process of drafting a “Dear colleague” letter, which will be sent to colleagues later this week, but the hon. Lady has beaten me to it. I am, of course, pleased to appear before the House today in the meantime. The Government worked at pace to facilitate the largest and most complex evacuation in living memory, assisting the Ministry of Defence and the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office to help more than 15,000 people from Afghanistan to safety in the United Kingdom. A huge programme of work is now under way across Government to ensure Afghans brought to the United Kingdom receive a warm welcome and the vital support they need to build bright futures in our country.”
“The foundation on which the Government are working is to try to do things in what are difficult and fast-evolving circumstances, and to do what is right for people who have already been evacuated here, and those we wish to evacuate in future. I am afraid these things take time, but I hope I have the support of the House in creating the scheme in a way that best serves the interests of Afghans. I understand why the hon. Lady secured this urgent question, but I suggest we will achieve this through day-to-day work and by working together to ensure that the scheme addresses the concerns she raised.”
“There are, of course, many members of staff in countries around Afghanistan who are doing their absolute best to work with those who have made the journey into surrounding countries, but we must be realistic about the situation in country. We are working with international partners to find ways and routes out of Afghanistan, but we must do so with the international community. The hon. Lady mentions the ambitious target of 5,000 that the Prime Minister set for the first year of the Afghan citizens resettlement scheme, and that is in addition to the Afghan relocations and assistance policy, under which many thousands of people were evacuated both before and during Operation Pitting. The majority of Chevening scholars were evacuated, and we are working with international partners to try to find ways for those who remain.”
“In answer to the hon. Lady’s many questions, she may recall that, in the course of the oral statement on 13 September and indeed in the “Dear colleague” letter that accompanied it, I had to be frank with the House in relation to the emails Members of Parliament had been sending—about people in Afghanistan who are not constituents, but whose safety they understandably want to ensure if they have emailed been and contacted by them—that due to the new situation as it then was in Afghanistan, we would not be able to work those cases as we would expect to in other casework scenarios. Regrettably, the situation in Afghanistan has not changed since I last addressed the House. We do not have a British Army presence in Afghanistan and we do not have a British consular presence.”
“I can certainly provide my right hon. Friend with that assurance. We want to get this right, which is why it is taking us a bit of time. I understand the concerns of colleagues, and also, as she said, the real concerns of Afghans already in this country. I have met many, and every one has raised concerns about their families and friends left behind. I understand that, but it will take a bit of time, and I ask the House to bear with us while we try to ensure we get it right.”
“Those are all categories of people that we have set out in the policy statement that we want to help, but we have to do this in a managed and measured way so that we get the scheme right and, over the coming years, it delivers the sorts of changes and help that everyone in the House expects.”
“I can deal with the hon. Gentleman’s point on Chevening scholars. The scheme has not been launched yet. We want to get this right, so I am afraid that I will have to give him the holding answer, which is that we are working on the scheme. I know that he would not expect me to give details, thoughts or running commentary on how the policy is being developed before we have, as a Government, come to a collective agreement on it so that we can best ensure that the policy meets the very real needs that many in this House have raised. I imagine that only today, we will hear not just about Chevening scholars but, for example, about religious minorities, about people who are LGBT+ and about extraordinary women who have done extraordinary things in Afghanistan in the last 20 years in pursuit of equality and the rights of women before the law.”
“I am extremely grateful to my right hon. Friend for highlighting one of the factors that I must bear in mind while I am at the Dispatch Box and that the Government must bear in mind in public communications: the unintended consequences of what we say at the Dispatch Box, how that may reverberate into Afghanistan and the impact it may have on people still in Afghanistan. I know from conversations I have had with Afghans who have been evacuated that when pronouncements are made in this place or in the media, they really do have unintended consequences in Afghanistan. I am afraid that I have to temper all my answers to ensure that neither I nor anyone else in this place inadvertently creates consequences that none of us would want.”
“On Aspen cards, we have been issuing them as quickly as we can. There was a slight technical glitch at one point with the provision of chips within cards—I will not bore the House with that—but we have managed to get over that. Aspen cards are very much a part of our support package to people in bridging hotels.”
“On bridging hotels, we have approximately 11,000 people in bridging hotels at the moment, which shows the scale of the task. [ Interruption. ] The hon. Gentleman’s eyebrows raised a bit with that. That shows the scale of the task ahead of us. This will take time. I have been frank with the House at every opportunity to make that clear. It will take us time, but we want to do it right. The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right to raise the issue of security. Again, I do not want there to be any unintended consequences, but we are very, very mindful of the security needs of our bridging hotels and the people who reside in them. Clearly, any actions to target them are not only unlawful and illegal, but despicable in moral terms. The police and others will work very hard to ensure that that does not happen.”
“They were not able to conduct the sort of detailed interviews that we have been conducting over the last few weeks. We have been able to do that and are cleansing that data at the moment. Having that data now means we will be able to match homes to families much more quickly in future. Again, as hon. Members will appreciate, an offer of a two-bed flat is not much good if a family has five or six children. We have to match very carefully. We are also mindful that, where we can, we want to take into account, for example, community ties and links with defence. The Ministry of Defence is working with the Royal British Legion and others to try to ensure pastoral support for our ARAP friends as well. It is not simply a question of matching numbers to homes.”
“I thank the hon. Gentleman for his questions. May I also take the opportunity to thank the Scottish Government for the work they are doing to help us with our resettlement programme for Afghans? It really is appreciated. I know that the Scottish Government, as well as the Welsh and Northern Irish Governments, are working with us to ensure that we are able to offer accommodation to Afghans across the United Kingdom. On matching delays, one thing we tried to do, and indeed have done, over the last two months since Operation Pitting finished was conduct detailed induction interviews with every single family in bridging hotels. There may be some who say, “Why didn’t this happen in Kabul?” Well, with the best will in the world our soldiers on the ground in Kabul, we will remember, were in an emergency and in highly dangerous circumstances.”
“I am extremely grateful to my right hon. Friend and very much echo his observations about international partners in the region; it is important that we do everything we can to work with them. I will make sure, if they have not already heard him, that Foreign Office Ministers are aware of his concerns and his request that they continue to work with international organisations to achieve the ends that he set out.”
“Again, I am afraid this is one of those answers that no Minister wants to give. I refer the hon. Lady to the “Dear colleague” letter that was published on 13 September. We simply cannot casework these cases as she and others would expect us to be able to do if they were in the United Kingdom or any other settled and developed economy. That is why we are working at pace with international partners to develop the ACRS scheme and to get out those who have been referred to it.”
“I am grateful to my hon. Friend. If he would not mind contacting me afterwards regarding the accommodation point, I am very happy to take that up.”
“Given the range of issues that the Chair of the Home Affairs Committee has understandably raised, may I invite the right hon. Lady to meet me to discuss some of them? There are matters that it would not be right to talk about on the Floor of the House, but I am very happy to meet her to discuss them further.”
“Very much so. In relation to those who are outside Afghanistan, the Ministry of Defence and others are working very hard with international partners to secure safe routes where it is possible to do so.”
“Because the scheme has not been launched yet, as we are still developing it, I do not have a precise figure for the right hon. Gentleman. However, I ask him not to take from that that the figure has been met or otherwise. At the moment, I am not able to help the House with that number; when I can do, I will.”
“I am aware that colleagues on the Doha trip met those children, and I thank those colleagues for taking such an interest. I can assure my hon. Friend that this is being worked through. As always, there are safeguarding and other matters that we must turn our minds to, as we are doing, but we are trying to work through this as quickly as we can.”
“I would be very happy to discuss the matter with the hon. Gentleman. May I put on record my thanks to Welsh councils and the Welsh Government for the work that they are doing, and have done for many years?”
“I am delighted to hear that from the hon. Gentleman. This is one of the things I am working on at the moment. There are so many things our Afghan friends can offer us, in terms of employment opportunities and working in our local communities. I am really pleased to hear what he says. There will be more to announce on the principle in due course, but I am very happy to discuss the matter with him in more detail to see what can be done with the companies that he mentions.”
“On the hon. Gentleman’s first point, the Government are very aware of the potential security ramifications if the security situation in Afghanistan gets worse; that is why we are working with international partners to do what we can internationally to secure it. On the point about unaccompanied children, I am personally aware of the case, and we are working through it. I understand the hon. Gentleman’s urgency. As I say, we have to ensure that the actions we take are very much in the best interests of the children.”
“If I may deal with the hon. Lady’s second point first, I am delighted to tell the House that the majority of children are already in school, or are being placed in school. We know that there are differences among local authorities, depending on availability of school places, but that is a key factor in the matching operation between families and offers of homes. As for the hon. Lady’s first point, again, I understand the concerns of constituents with family members in Afghanistan. As I have said previously, the situation at the moment means that we are unable to provide the help that we would wish to provide in normal circumstances, but I encourage Members to continue to refer to the website, because as and when we are able to update it, we will do so.”
“I well understand the motivation behind the right hon. Gentleman’s question. If people were called forward in the way that we have described in the policy statement, they may well form part of the three categories that we set out in that statement in relation to the ACRS. As for those who have not been called forward, again we are working very hard across Government and with international partners, but sadly I fear I cannot add anything to what I said earlier.”
“I have not banned the hon. Member from acting on behalf of her constituents, and, if I may say so, I do not expect to see that wording repeated outside this Chamber, because it is not what I have said. I have been realistic with colleagues in explaining that I cannot respond to their requests in the usual caseworking manner because of the situation in Afghanistan. As for community groups, this is part of our work that we are considering for the ACRS. I am very conscious of the enormous role that they have played in the past through, for example, the Syrian resettlement scheme, and I want very much to build on those successes as part of this scheme.”
“As I would say to any other Member of this House, if a request for a meeting has not been acted on, please speak to me at any time, because I will ensure that it happens. I hope the hon. Gentleman will forgive me, but I have to say that I do not recall having that conversation with him; however, I will certainly act on what he says now. As for the timeframe, the Ministry of Defence has been evacuating ARAP translators since, I think, 2014. It is right that we put even more energy into that effort from April this year, but as I have said, Operation Pitting was the largest evacuation in living memory. We are proud of the efforts of the military and everyone else involved in it, and we now want to ensure that the work that they did in Kabul is met with a warm welcome here in the United Kingdom.”
“On the matter of unaccompanied children in Doha, we have to ensure that the family members who have been put forward are who they claim to be, or who people have claimed them to be. We also have to ensure that they are able to take the child or children and look after them. This is taking a bit of time, and it is very much being done from a place of wanting to ensure the safety of those children once they are in the United Kingdom. As I say, we are very much working on this. In relation to the hon. Gentleman’s other comments, I do not feel that I can add anything to what I have already said.”
“As I have said to other hon. Members, the fact is that we do not have British Army presence or consular presence in Afghanistan, and we are very much bound by those constraints now. I am very conscious of the impact on family members, and we have to try to find international solutions to this. We are working across the region with third countries to try to come up with solutions, but as I have said to the House repeatedly, there are no easy answers. I am very conscious of that in all our discussions.”
“We are speaking to respected international organisations to ensure that we get the criteria and the methodology right, because as I said at the beginning, we want this scheme to work, and we want people, when they are here, to have the warm welcome of which we have spoken so much in recent weeks and months.”
“In relation to communications with the Home Office, as I said in the “dear colleague” letter, we are collating that data and will consider how to use it in due course. We have to look at how else we can support and bolster the claims that people put forward. The right hon. Lady will appreciate that in a population of 40 million, half of whom are female, very many people will fall into the initial category of being vulnerable and scared for their existence. We cannot, however, accommodate 40 million people, so we have to make some incredibly difficult decisions. That is why it is taking us time to ensure that we get the scheme right.”
“The words of the Taliban, as quoted by the shadow Minister, are indeed very chilling. I hope that I can reassure hon. Members that both the Foreign Office and the Home Office are working with Stonewall, Rainbow Railroad and other specialist charities to help LGBT+ people known to be at risk. The hon Members for Jarrow and for Wallasey (Dame Angela Eagle), as well as the hon. and learned Member for Edinburgh South West (Joanna Cherry), asked about what more we are doing internationally. We are seeking to increase multilateral co-operation on this important issue. Indeed, this afternoon, the UK is hosting a special meeting of the Equal Rights Coalition, which we co-chair with Argentina, to discuss the situation in Afghanistan and ensure that the specific requirements of LGBT+ people are considered as part of the humanitarian response.”
“Member for Jarrow (Kate Osborne) on bringing this debate, and on passionately setting out her concerns about the fate of LGBT+ people who remain in Afghanistan, and indeed for those in other countries in the region. I thank all hon. Members who have spoken in this debate. I know that, as the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Cardiff South and Penarth (Stephen Doughty), said, many speak for particularly personal reasons. I hope that he and others will understand that we all share their very real concerns about the safety of LGBT+ people, not just in Afghanistan, but across the world, as we contemplate some of the harsh regimes that still exist, sadly, in this century. We have heard, only too clearly, the horrifying reports of the experiences of people who are left behind.”
“Of course, Sir Gary. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship and to be back in Westminster Hall. I join all hon. Members who have thanked our military, our forces, our Border Force officials, our civil servants and our diplomats who worked against all odds to evacuate 15,000 people under Operation Pitting. That evacuation exceeded the expectations of those who were involved with it. I put that on record, because I know that hon. Members will have corresponded with the Home Office and others about people still in-country. We will, of course, continue to discuss those cases. That is very important. However, we should put on record the fact that that evacuation helped to rescue 15,000 people from Afghanistan in incredibly difficult circumstances. I congratulate the hon.”
“Sadly, of course, we currently have no support in Afghanistan because of the perilous security situation there. However, those diplomatic efforts continue around the region, and our UK missions are very much working, I am told, to promote human rights.”
“I will just finish this point. I am mindful of time, as there is a lot to get through. We very much hope that by continuing to work together, including through the coalition, that we will improve international co-operation to help people known to be at risk. We are also working with the international community to ensure a co-ordinated approach to Afghanistan, including helping to deliver the UN Security Council resolution setting out expectations for safe passage for all who wish to leave, urgent humanitarian access, and respect for human rights and the prevention of terrorism. In addition to that, our wider international human rights work includes our network of over 280 diplomatic missions, which monitor and raise human rights in their host countries.”
“This is significant progress for those people because it will mean that they can live, work, contribute and settle into our community. We are working with international partners, and I have already met the UNHCR to discuss how we can work together. There is a great deal of work going on with other international organisations, because we want to ensure that as and when the security situation changes—I hope improves—with the Taliban, that we are able to reach the very people about whom we are all so concerned. I hope that in this short time I have been able to give hon. Members the direction of travel for the Government. I remain, as always, happy to discuss this and other policies with hon. Members.”
“Through our work so far, with the policy statement issued last week and my statement to the House, we have been clear that LGBT+ people are part of the vulnerable cohort that we are carefully considering for the future. A number of colleagues asked about documents. As I said in my statement last week, we will be taking a concessionary approach for Afghans similar to that which we took for Syrian nationals in 2015, because we understand that many people will have fled without documentation or have had to destroy it. Again, I ask Members to please look at the policy statement we issued. As part of our warm welcome, we have announced that people who arrived under ARAP or who form part of the citizens’ scheme will have indefinite leave to remain.”
“In relation to Operation Pitting, we were able to call forward a number of people outside the established ARAP scheme. Some of those who arrived in the UK and who are in accommodation will form part of the Afghan citizens’ resettlement scheme. The hon. Member for Cardiff South and Penarth asked me for numbers, and I regret that I cannot provide those numbers at the moment. Again, I hope that he and others will understand that we are using a trauma-informed approach in our conversations with the people we have welcomed. The hon. Gentleman will appreciate that people may not feel able to share their personal circumstances related to the topic of this debate at this stage. We are being very careful in the way that we deal with them and that is part of our commitment.”