Victoria Atkins
MP for Louth and Horncastle · Conservative · United Kingdom
“Oh dear. This may be the last time the Secretary of State gets to give such an inadequate answer to what is a reasonable question about her grip on her Department. But let us look at Labour’s wider chaos.”
“In recent weeks, DEFRA’s quangos have made headlines: the Environment Agency is failing to prosecute waste criminals, instead going after virtuous volunteers who are cleaning up the rivers for it; Natural England is demanding more madcap fish schemes at Hinkley Point C, on top of its recommended £700 million fish disco policy, all of whic…”
“There are many questions still left unanswered in this report, and I hope that the Secretary of State will try to answer them rather than deflect, because that has been noticed. The plan looks to double the funding for Environment Agency inspections. Why are this Government focusing on bureaucracy rather than helping farmers survive?”
“In another leap from reality, the Government’s negotiations with the EU get barely a mention in this document, despite the enormous consequences they will have for farming businesses. CropLife UK has estimated that this EU reset could drain £810 million from UK farms and sacrifice almost 9,000 jobs from our rural constituencies.”
“We Conservatives view DEFRA as a vital economic Department, so we agree with its efforts to recalculate farming and food producers’ contributions to the economy. By the way, I note that Reform calls itself the farmer’s friend, yet there is not a single Reform MP in the Chamber.”
“As Labour MPs and Ministers in the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs voted repeatedly for the family farm and family business taxes, DEFRA Ministers shut down farming payments without notice, including the SFI. Sadly, the record of this Government is rising food prices and a record number of farms closing.”
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“Offences relating to child sexual exploitation will be recorded using a variety of crime codes, including those for child sexual abuse and those relating to trafficking. As such, there are no specific crime codes for CSE, and police forces are required to flag child sexual exploitation offences when providing data to the Home Office. Modern slavery offences committed against children are recorded and published by the police, the Crown Prosecution Service and the Ministry of Justice. The Crown Prosecution Service maintains a central record of the number of offences for which a prosecution commenced, including offences charged under the Modern Slavery Act 2015.”
“The Government recognise the importance of collecting data to inform policy and operational decisions and to see the effect of those decisions. I want to take this opportunity to reassure the Committee that there are already robust mechanisms in place across Government, the police and the criminal justice system for gathering, recording and publishing data. Through the Office for National Statistics, the Government routinely publish data for child sexual abuse crimes committed against children aged under 16 years old. Data for children aged between 16 and 18 is recorded differently, as there are no specific crime codes for this age group. In 2019, however, the ONS carried out analysis of sexual offences perpetrated against 16 and 17-year-olds and published its findings as part of the England and Wales crime survey.”
“The Home Office also publishes data on potential child victims of modern slavery who have been referred through the national referral mechanism, which is the framework for identifying and supporting victims of modern slavery. Of course, that stands apart from the criminal justice system. Someone may be referred to the NRM but might not participate or have a part to play in the criminal justice system. There are a great many data sets, but I take the hon. Lady’s point about the identification of child victims. We will see what more we can do.”
“I will take those points away, because it is incredibly complicated, as the hon. Lady’s speech and, I suspect, my speech have demonstrated. We do not routinely publish data on the number of child victims by age, as the police record the data on offences rather than on the victims who have experienced them. I suspect that this is the nub of the hon. Lady’s point. I am told that the reason for that is that an offence may come to the attention of the police, but there might not be a specific intended or identifiable victim attached to it. Additionally, the same child may be the victim of multiple offences—indeed, we know that to be the case with gang exploitation—so we have used data gathered through the crime survey in order to try to inform our understanding of the number of victims and their ages.”
“Indeed, I am led to believe that Ealing, which imposed the first such order, very recently renewed it following its expiration.”
“The police have certain powers under that Act if the purpose of the assembly is to intimidate others into doing or not doing an act. Clause 55 of this Bill strengthens those powers and enables the police to place any necessary conditions on such assemblies. The power that has found resonance with local authorities and has been upheld by the Court of Appeal recently is the power under the Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Act 2014 to implement public space protection orders to create buffer zones around abortion clinics or hospitals, when they are satisfied on reasonable grounds that protests are having an unreasonable and persistent detrimental effect on the quality of life of people in the area. Three local authorities have imposed such orders around particular clinics.”
“We are not debating the provision of abortion services; we are talking about the public order element surrounding clinics and hospitals. For the benefit of colleagues and others who may be watching this debate closely, given that we are looking purely at a public order issue, on a very narrow basis, my Whips have concluded that this is not a matter of conscience, so the matter is whipped. It is in a different category from the wider issue of abortion, about which Members have many varied and strongly held opinions. We confine ourselves to the public order element of what the new clause is trying to achieve. We keep this matter under very close review. As the hon. Lady knows, it is an offence under the Public Order Act 1986 to display images or words that may cause harassment, alarm or distress.”
“I am grateful to the hon. Lady for setting out the case for this new clause, tabled by the hon. Member for Ealing Central and Acton. As she rightly identifies, it is supported by parliamentarians from across the House. I approach this issue with the respect that such a widespread array of support deserves. We have looked into this issue and kept it under very close review over the past few years, and I will set out in a moment some of the steps we have taken. I want to be very clear that I have sympathy for what the new clause seeks to achieve, in that harassment and intimidation of women who are seeking medical care is completely unacceptable. The hon. Member for Rotherham is right to emphasise that this new clause is confined to a very narrow basis.”
“I will come to the figures in a moment because they will, I hope, help the Committee understand the approach that the Government are taking. In the protests, or demonstrations—or however one wants to describe them—there can be a range of activities, and the hon. Lady has, understandably, focused on some of the most upsetting forms of activity. There are more peaceful ways of protesting, however, and I do not think it would be right for me to pretend that every single protest has the ability to harass and alarm in the way in which she has said some protests do. The advantage of PSPOs is that they are very local. They are brought by local authorities in the circumstances of their area, and the conditions imposed will reflect the conditions of the protests faced outside service providers.”
“Very much so. Indeed, that has been part of our work with the review. We conducted the first review in 2018 and, to put this in context—I will read the figures out because I want to make sure they are correct—of the 406 clinics and hospitals identified as providing those services, providers told us that only 36 had stated that they experience any protest activity.”
“We have also looked very carefully at whether there is work we can do to help councils understand the powers that they have under the orders. Again, we believe that the law is in a good place at the moment, but we very much keep this under review.”
“The figure I have been provided with is that 35 out of the 142 registered clinics are currently or have recently been affected by protest activities. Five hospitals have been affected. That compares with 32 clinics and four hospitals being affected in 2018. I am told, incidentally, that one of the clinics that had been reviewed in 2018 has since closed down, so that may explain that difference. I give the figures because that is why we are concerned that a blanket ban across all of the service providers may not be proportionate, given that the majority of clinics and the overwhelming majority of hospitals that provide these services do not appear to have been affected by protest activity thus far. That is why we believe that a localised approach of PSPOs, with councils using the orders, is the way forward.”
“I accept that, and of course, women can be in a distressed state when they are approaching clinics. They may be in turmoil and may have questions about what they are about to do—they may well have doubts. I am sympathetic to the idea that not every protest has to display the sorts of posters that the hon. Member for Rotherham has described to unsettle or upset women accessing those services. I have a second set of figures. The figures are important because we as a Government have to look at proportionate responses. The first set of figures came out of the 2018 review. Since then, to come to the point made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Scarborough and Whitby, we have again asked service providers for their views and whether there has been an increase or decrease in activity.”
“Friend has alighted on another unintended consequence—that other forms of protest may be caught by the new clause. We very much understand the motivations behind the new clause and the work that parliamentarians have been conducting over recent years in order to shed light on this issue, but the Government do not feel able to support new clause 43.”
“My right hon. Friend raises an important point. That is why we have looked so carefully at the universality of the measures put forward by the hon. Member for Ealing Central and Acton and why we believe that PSPOs, which are targeted and have been upheld by the Court of Appeal, seem to be the most effective way of managing these very difficult circumstances outside particular service providers. I appreciate that this may be corrected before Report, but we are also concerned that proposed subsection (3) of the new clause potentially includes medical practitioners and others providing advice on abortion services within the confines of the buffer zone—in other words, within the clinic. Nobody—but nobody—would want that to be an unintended consequence of the new clause. My right hon.”
“In fairness—I am sure the hon. Member for Ealing Central and Acton will back me up on this—we have been working. I do listen. I have meetings with colleagues from across the House—both those who support the intentions of the new clause and those who do not. We must acknowledge that there are colleagues and members of the public who want to defend their right to make their feelings and their views known in front of these service providers. I am very happy to meet colleagues representing the range of opinions on this issue. I have met the hon. Member for Ealing Central and Acton several times and am very happy to meet other colleagues, whichever side of the debate they may stand on.”
“Gentleman might be minded not to push the new clause to a vote on this occasion.”
“I can be brief in responding. I have met the right hon. Member for Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford to discuss a particular case in her constituency that appeared, on the face of it, to fall within the circumstances that she is trying to address through these new clauses. I take very seriously the concerns of the right hon. Member and, indeed, those of Refuge and Women’s Aid, and I am pleased to tell the Committee that we are looking into this issue very carefully. The Committee will appreciate that we need to measure the problem and understand the scale of it before we can put measures before the House, or indeed in our domestic abuse strategy. On the basis that we are looking into this issue seriously and gathering the data—on the understanding that this is an active piece of work by the Government—I understand that the hon.”
“Both offences carry a maximum penalty of seven years imprisonment.”
“I think that everyone who has heard about the work of the campaign of the hon. Member for Hove, as set out by the shadow Minister, will have deep worries and concerns about this appalling practice, and we welcome the work that the hon. Member is doing to raise awareness of it. We are unequivocal that so-called sex for rent has no place in our society. We know that it often involves the exploitation of vulnerable people. Rape, sexual violence and sexual exploitation are devastating crimes, and we are determined to bring offenders to justice. There are existing offences under the Sexual Offences Act 2003 that may be used to prosecute this practice, including the section 52 offence of causing or inciting prostitution for gain and the section 53 offence of controlling prostitution for gain.”
“We must support victims in the court process when they are following through with such difficult allegations, in order to bring them to the attention of the police and to investigate and prosecute.”
“I understand that point. I am carefully examining the wording, and the section 52 offence applies when an identified victim has been caused to engage in prostitution or has been incited to do so, regardless of whether prostitution takes place. I understand the concerns of the victims, who we are so worried about, and that the wording of the Sexual Offences Act 2003 can cause a further layer of distress in someone who is seeking help or who wants to report an offence, but there is a very fine distinction. I appreciate that I am probably indulging in the law of semantics, but it is a very delicate balance. Of course, we must emphasise that if someone finds the courage to report such a crime to the police, they will benefit from the anonymity provisions under the Sexual Offences (Amendment) Act 1992.”
“I understand that. Indeed, I seem to recall a Westminster Hall debate a couple of years ago in which the hon. Lady admonished me for my use of the phrase “sex work”, when in fairness I had been using both “prostitution” and “sex work” throughout the debate. It is very important to be sensitive to the terminology used and what it can mean to different people, and I understand that. Under section 52, it would be illegal to advertise a product or service that incited prostitution for gain, and the promise of provision of accommodation in return for sexual services may be covered by this offence, depending on the specific services.”
“I encourage anyone who is able, and who has the wherewithal, to report instances such as this to the police so that they can be investigated. I assure the Committee that we will examine this issue as part of our work on the violence against women and girls strategy. We are very aware of the vulnerabilities that people may find themselves in, as set out so eloquently by hon. Members, including my right hon. Friend the Member for Scarborough and Whitby. If constituents write to hon. Members, please encourage them to report their cases to the police if they are able to, so that those cases can be investigated and brought to justice. I therefore very much hope that the hon. Member for Stockton North feels able to withdraw his new clause.”
“The new legislation will apply to services that host user-generated content or enable users to interact online. This will cover a broad range of services that could be used to facilitate sex for rent, including online marketplaces, classified ads sites and social media services. Services in the scope of the new legislation will have to put in place systems and processes to limit the spread of illegal content and to swiftly remove any illegal content that may harm individuals when those services become aware of it. We also need to make sure that online advertising regulation is fit for purpose. The Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport is considering tougher regulation on online advertising and will consult on this issue later this year. We await the result of the case that is in the criminal justice system at the moment.”
“As with so many hidden crimes, domestic abuse being but one example, cases are often not reported to the police, so there is a bit of a chicken and egg situation: if the crimes are not reported, the police of course cannot investigate them, and prosecutions cannot be brought. Again, like many other hidden crimes, there is an element of raising awareness and enabling people to seek advice and help and to report crimes to the police so that they can then be protected through the criminal justice system and the offenders can be brought to justice. We are conscious of the role of online services as well. Under our new legislation that is coming forward—the Online Safety Bill—tech companies will for the first time have a legal duty to prevent criminal activity on their services.”
“Of course, I will not comment further, because it is sub judice, but the outcome of that case will help to improve our understanding of the effectiveness or otherwise of the legislation as it is at the moment. We are looking at understanding the barriers to pursuing such cases. We have heard evidence that this practice may be widespread; the hon. Member for Stockton North referred to the Shelter survey, which extrapolated that there may be up to 30,000 victims of this type of coercion. However, the problem is that those numbers are not reflected in reports to the police.”
“Very much so. Of course, there can be additional pressures, even to those my right hon. Friend has described—for example, if the victim is worrying about housing themselves and their children. We understand, and have great sympathy with, the motivation behind the new clauses. In 2019, the Crown Prosecution Service amended its guidance on prostitution and the exploitation of prostitution to include specific reference to the potential availability of charges under the section 52 and section 53 offences where there is evidence to support the existence of sex for rent arrangements. I am advised that there is a case in the criminal justice system at the moment in which sex for rent allegations are being prosecuted under those sections.”
“To clarify, looking at section 52 of the Sexual Offences Act 2003 in particular, I would not want a victim who is going into a police station to report this offence to be under the impression—this is what I was trying to address—that she has to sit there and declare, “I am a prostitute.” That is absolutely not what is required. Section 52 states: “A person commits an offence if… he intentionally causes or incites another person to become a prostitute”. As I say, it is semantics, and there is a wafer-thin cigarette paper between us, but I would not want vulnerable people to think that they have to go into a police station and declare themselves to be that, because, of course, they are victims of a crime.”
“I have had instances where farmers have been worried about their family’s safety and their own safety at home, because of the fear that, in going out in the middle of the night and challenging the hare coursers, they will alert the criminals to where they live or the vicinity of where they live. These are serious crimes that can have a huge impact on the landscape, and hares within our constituencies as well. They are the most beautiful creatures. Watching one gambolling along across a field as dawn is rising can be a very beautiful view in our countryside, yet these people come fully equipped with huge lights and, often, stolen vehicles. Money is bet on the ways in which the hare will turn, or which dog will prevail, which is truly unpleasant.”
“I thank my right hon. Friend the Member for Scarborough and Whitby for bringing these new clauses before the Committee. I address the Committee as a Minister, but if hon. Members would indulge me for a moment, I will speak as a constituency MP. My right hon. Friend mentioned Chief Inspector Phil Vickers, who is my chief inspector. I am a Lincolnshire MP and my constituency suffers terribly from the crime of hare coursing. These can be terrifying crimes for the farmers and landowners on whose land they are committed, because if a farmer or someone working on the farm dares to challenge those people, they can, in most cases, find out where they live.”
“We are therefore committed to tackling child criminal exploitation and bringing the perpetrators to justice, but we do not, on balance, believe that a specific offence would change the way in which young people are supported. Our efforts focus on improving the practical response to such criminality. We keep the legislative framework in connection with child criminal exploitation under review, and of course we will consider any additional evidence that supports the view that additional legislation is required as it arises.”
“In addition, we have funded dedicated support for those who are at risk and who are involved in county lines. Between June 2020 and June this year, that work was carried out by the St Giles Trust, which worked with 170 young people to help them leave exploitation and exit gangs and other forms of coercion. We continue to fund the Missing People SafeCall service, which is a national confidential helpline for young people, families and carers who are concerned about county lines exploitation, and we are funding the Children’s Society Prevention programme, which works to tackle and prevent child criminal exploitation as well as other forms of abuse and exploitation.”
“To promote good use of those orders, the NCLCC has established a dedicated orders team to identify children and the perpetrators who exploit them, and to help forces with the application of such orders; to disseminate guidance and deliver training to local forces to upskill local force understanding; and to work with regional leads to improve best practice in gathering data on the use of orders in a county lines context. We are also committed to improving local safeguarding arrangements. With the Department for Education, we commissioned Liverpool John Moores University to examine the effectiveness of multi-agency safeguarding partnerships in dealing with young people who are at risk or who are involved in serious violence and county lines. It has reported, and we are considering its recommendations.”
“For child victims, it is sufficient to show that they have been chosen for exploitation because of their youth. There is no requirement to prove force, threats or deception, which may, in particular circumstances, be difficult to prove. A range of civil orders are available to law enforcement partners to respond to county lines and child criminal exploitation, including modern slavery and trafficking prevention orders, and modern slavery and trafficking risk orders.”
“That will allow us to expand and build on the results of our existing county lines programme, through which we have set up the National County Lines Co-ordination Centre to improve the intelligence picture and co-ordinate the national law-enforcement response, which includes protecting those young people who are abused and exploited. Turning to the question of creating a specific offence of child criminal exploitation, we have discussed this issue carefully with law enforcement and others and, on balance, we are of the view that existing legislation is sufficient to address the exploitation of young people for criminal purposes. In particular, the Modern Slavery Act 2015 provides for the offences of slavery, servitude and forced or compulsory labour, as well as human trafficking for all types exploitation.”
“I am conscious that we have already touched on some of these issues in the debate on new clause 17, which I will try not to repeat. Child criminal exploitation is a heinous form of abuse, and the Government are determined to tackle it. The exploitation, degradation and assault of a young person to conceal drugs internally for transportation, known as plugging, is immoral and unlawful and, again, the Government condemn it. We are taking action to target those who seek to exploit vulnerable children through county lines operations. Earlier this year, we announced £148 million of investment to tackle drugs misuse and supply, along with county lines activity. That includes £40 million of investment dedicated to tackling drugs supply and county lines activities, and represents a surge in our activity against those ruthless gangs.”
“I will not cite cases, but I believe the first prosecution was in Cardiff Crown court, involving a county lines gang who originated in the south-east. I do not recall the details, but I would not want the Committee to think that it had not been used. I appreciate that the hon. Gentleman said that he was “not aware” that it had been.”
“I am able to help the Committee with the news that we are continuing to discuss with the Welsh Government the direction-making power in clause 17 relating to the duty.”
“I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving us an insight into the complexities and the balances that are a part of the devolution settlement for Wales. I imagine that the Committee’s SNP Member, the hon. Member for Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock, if he were here, would say the same about the Scottish devolution arrangements. It may assist the Committee if I set out the provisions of the Bill that, in the view of the UK Government, relate in part to devolved matters in Wales and, as such, engage the legislative consent process. There are three such provisions. The first are those in chapter 1 of part 2 relating to the serious violence duty, so far as those provisions confer reserved functions on devolved Welsh authorities. The hon. Member for Arfon posed a question about the memorandum in that regard.”
“It may change the profile of buyers of sexual services, distilling the demand down only to those willing to break the law to purchase such acts and forcing prostitutes and sex workers to engage in forms of prostitution associated with higher levels of harm. In the absence of unequivocal evidence, the Government have therefore maintained their line that we are focusing on trying to exit people and trying to reduce the harm and exploitation that they face.”
“Under English and Welsh law currently, the buying and selling of sexual services are not necessarily unlawful in themselves. In other jurisdictions where the buying of sex has been criminalised, such as France, Northern Ireland and Sweden, there has been no conclusive evidence to show that the criminalisation of the demand for sex has either led to a significant decrease in the demand for sexual services or improved the conditions in which sex workers operate. Indeed, there is some evidence to suggest that criminalising the purchasing of sexual services worsens the conditions in which prostitutes and sex workers operate.”
“I am grateful to the hon. Lady for putting the case for new clauses 76 to 82 on behalf of the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North, who in the last Parliament had a ten-minute rule Bill on the issue. The Government’s long-standing policy towards sex work and prostitution has been focused on tackling the harm and exploitation that can be associated with prostitution, as well as ensuring that those wishing to exit sex work are appropriately supported. These six new clauses seek to make significant changes to the legislative regime governing prostitution and sex work. In summary, they would impose what is known as the sex buyer law, or Nordic model, which would criminalise the buying but not the selling of sexual services, the profiting by third parties from sexual services and the advertising of sexual services.”
“The tech companies and services that are in scope will have to put in place systems and processes to limit the spread of illegal content and to remove it swiftly. On the wider work of the violence against women and girls strategy, prostitution and sex work have been raised in many of the responses that we have received, and we very much intend to address actions on that to reduce the risks for women working in prostitution and sex work. As always, I would very much welcome the hon. Lady’s ideas and suggestions on these aims, and I am very happy to work with her and the right hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North on addressing some of those harms, which we are all determined the prevent.”
“All of those offences are captured by the definition of exploitation in section 3 of the Modern Slavery Act 2015, by virtue of which human trafficking with a view to committing the aforementioned offences carries a maximum sentence of life imprisonment. The other new clauses in the group stand or fall with new clauses 76 and 77. I will not address them, because I know an important matter is to be debated after this and I am mindful of time. We are taking action to tackle harmful activity online—that is a very important point in this subject area. With the Online Safety Bill, which I have already addressed several times in Committee, the imposition of a legal duty on certain online services providers to tackle criminal activity on their services will apply to a range of instances covered by this topic.”
“I very much accept the hon. Lady’s point about the coercive aspect of trafficking—forcing people into prostitution and sex work. It is a huge part of our work to tackle modern slavery and sex trafficking. We have covered this ground already, albeit on a slightly different subject. Section 52 of the Sexual Offences Act 2003 makes it an offence to cause or incite another person to engage in prostitution for one’s personal gain or the gain of a third party. Section 53 also creates an offence relating to one’s personal gain or the gain of a third party, and under section 53A it is a strict liability offence to pay for the services of a prostitute subjected to force, coercion, deception or exploitation.”
“Thanks also to our private offices, who help Ministers to turn up at Committee on time. Finally, of course, thanks to the members of the Committee. I know that, for some Members, this was their first Bill Committee—I hope that we have not put them off for life—but they have all contributed in their own way and have played a vital role in scrutinising this important piece of legislation so that it is ready for the House’s wider scrutiny on Report in a week and a half’s time. Thank you all.”
“I thank the Clerks for herding us in the right direction when we needed to be so herded, and the Hansard writers, whose ability to keep note of what we are saying never fails to amaze me. I thank the officials and the lawyers from the Home Office, the Ministry of Justice and the Department for Transport. A huge amount of work goes on behind the scenes to help Ministers to prepare for a Bill Committee, and it is very much thanks to them that we are able to do so. That flows inevitably to my very sincere thanks to the Bill manager for the Home Office, Charles Goldie, and the Bill manager for the MOJ, Katie Dougal—I hope I pronounced that correctly. They help Ministers to swim serenely above the water while they are working terribly hard underneath, so I thank them very much for their hard work and effort.”
“Friend the Member for Croydon South, for sharing the privilege, the pleasure and the workload of our Committee with me. I thank the Opposition Front Benchers—the hon. Members for Croydon Central, for Stockton North and for Enfield, Southgate—for their constructive and at times lively approach to the matters that we have debated, but that is all absolutely in the role of this Committee and what this process is supposed to do in this place. I would, of course, get into lots of trouble if I did not thank the Government Whip, my hon. Friend the Member for Corby. If Chairs keep us in order, Whips whip us in to make sure that we remain in good order. I give my sincere thanks to him because it is a very difficult job at times and one that does not get much praise.”
“It is customary at this stage to mark the end our deliberations in Committee by reflecting on the ups and downs, the agreements and disagreements and the range of subjects on which we have deliberated. Our debate on the police covenant at the beginning of the Committee’s deliberations feels like a long time ago. I am pleased that the Bill and no fewer than 84 new clauses have had the benefit of rigorous scrutiny by hon. Members on both sides of the Committee over the past few weeks. I thank in particular you, Mr McCabe, for your stylish chairmanship of the Committee as well as your co-Chair, Sir Charles, who was equally stylish and equally good at keeping us all in good order. I thank the Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department, my hon.”