Norma Foley
Kerry · Fianna Fáil · Ireland
“Therefore, the means by which the motion proposes to address the challenges raised may not specifically align with the approach being taken, but I absolutely accept that the underlying goals are the same and I accept the Deputies' sincerity in seeking to achieve them.”
“I intend to bring forward specific proposals arising from this work towards the end of the year, depending on progress and the outcome of ongoing engagement with stakeholders.”
“Working with that office, the Department of Children, Disability and Equality is absolutely committed to seeking to expand and reform specialist disability services in order to maximise individuals’ independence and support them to live lives of their choosing in places of their choosing.”
“A number of new measures are in train to move towards planned provision of residential supports, including the provision of planned residential placements under a new initiative, as outlined in the HSE’s 2026 national service plan.”
“I absolutely accept they are fighting tirelessly to highlight the need for us to ensure their loved ones are cared for and provided with appropriate housing, as and when it is needed. For far too many families, placements are made at the last minute, causing distress to individuals and their families.”
“In line with commitments contained in the programme for Government and the national human rights strategy, the Department of Children, Disability and Equality is now developing a new vision and reform strategy for disability services.”
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“The commission, in naming and describing persons who were involved in Grace’s case in its reports, sought to ensure the maintenance of the protections provided for in the terms of reference with respect to Grace’s identity while reporting on the matters under investigation. Grace was born in a hospital in the south of Ireland in 1978. Grace has an intellectual disability and is non-verbal with a requirement for life-long care. Grace is now 46 years of age. Grace was made a ward of the High Court in March 2010. The office of the general solicitor, as Grace’s committee in wardship, and her legal team represented Grace’s interests before the commission. The commission submitted two substantive interim reports on its investigations to the Department of Health which were published on 1 October 2021.”
“Gabhaim buíochas leis an gCathaoirleach as ucht an ama agus an deise seo a thabhairt dom. The Commission of Investigation (Certain Matters Relative to a Disability Service in the South East and Related Matters), the Farrelly commission, is an independent statutory commission of investigation established in 2017 to investigate the care and protection of Grace and others in a former foster home, family X, in the south east, which had been the subject of abuse allegations. Grace is the pseudonym chosen to protect the identity and privacy of the young woman who lived with the foster family.”
“On the points that have been raised on mothers working at home and in particular mothers, which is very pertinent to both the Minister of State, Deputy Naughton, and myself, in the area of disability, there are specific funds relating to disability such as domiciliary care allowances. Fundings of that nature are made available. The key point is that even in childcare services there is a choice for people to avail of the service and that all are included in the service, including children with disabilities, whom the Deputy referenced. It is open to all.”
“I thank the Deputies for their questions. On the last point, I have been very clear and the programme for Government is very clear: this will be delivered over the lifetime of this Government. It will be done in an incremental manner. One of the first key steps was taken just last week when we announced a fee cap would be put in place. We will build on that as we go forward. Deputy Boland has engaged with me before about building blocks. It is a scheme with existing criteria, which is absolutely delivering for some. I hear what the Deputy is saying on the flexibility going forward. There has to be a clawback as well for the State. If funding is being provided by State, there must be commitments given for the length of time that they will continue to work in the area of childcare. It is a fine line that we walk there.”
“Other Deputies have identified places in their constituencies where there is an absence of provision; in other words, where there is greater demand than the provision that is available. That work is under way. Its purpose is to identify the areas and then to provide a stream of funding for a public model, whereby the State will step in to buy or build new childcare facilities.”
“I thank the Deputy very much. I acknowledge that she has consistently raised the very specific challenges in her area. She is correct that the cost of childcare is one thing; the remuneration of staff is another element of it; and there is also the availability of places or access to places. In that respect, there are a number of different initiatives. We already discussed that two weeks ago when we announced the Building Blocks scheme, which was of benefit to some, although not all, and will deliver an additional 1,500 places. The forward planning unit is an important unit within the Department. Work is currently under way to specifically identify an absence of provision.”
“In addition, the fee management system introduced through core funding has made sure the investment in affordability is not absorbed by unnecessary fee increases. Core funding has enjoyed high participation rates to date, with 92% of services taking part. Preparations for the first Estimates process for this Government are under way and I am committed to bringing forward proposals to make further progress in this area. Work is also under way to develop an action plan to build an affordable, high-quality, accessible early learning and childcare system, informed by stakeholder consultation. This will set out future steps to reduce the cost of childcare further to €200 per month.”
“This latest measure builds on a range of supports already in place. The ECCE programme provides two years of preschool without charge and has participation rates of 96%. More than 70% of families say that if it was not a free service they would never have been able to access it. The national childcare scheme, NCS, complements ECCE, giving universal and targeted subsidies to reduce costs to parents. Recent improvements include the extension of the universal subsidy to children under 15 and two increases to the minimum hourly subsidy, now worth €96.30 per week for 45 hours. Almost 220,000 children benefited from a subsidy in 2024. Since last September, children in childminding settings can also benefit from national childcare scheme subsidies.”
“I appreciate the Deputy's ongoing engagement with me on this matter. She will be aware that earlier this month I announced the introduction of maximum fee caps for all partner services in core funding from September 2025. The fee freeze will remain in place for all partner services with fees below these caps. This is an important step towards the reduction of childcare fees to €200 per month over the lifetime of this Government. Maximum fee caps were introduced for new services last year, and this September they will be extended to existing services also. Under the new fee caps, the highest possible fees will be no more than €295 per week for a full-day place of 40 to 50 hours per week. Once the national childcare scheme subsidy is taken into account, the maximum fee for a parent in this situation will be less than €200 per week.”
“Some 320 additional places are being provided in further and higher education this year alone, and a significant number of them are in the area of social work.”
“As I said at the outset, there are 20 social workers in County Clare. All of the three current vacancies are due to be filled this summer, depending on whether they relate to a career break, maternity leave or whatever else, so they will be at their full capacity of 23 social workers. I recognise the invaluable work of social workers. Across the country, there is a lack of social workers available to us. It is for that reason that social work, per se , is on the critical skills list of the Department of enterprise. It is also for that reason that new routes to social work training are in place. In UCC there is an apprenticeship model of earn-as-you-learn. That is very important because the wider we can cast the net for people to become involved in this field of work, the better.”
“In addition, budget 2025 provided further investment and support directed towards children in foster care. This included an initial payment at the start of each foster care placement.”
“I confirm that the Department allocated additional funding to Tusla in 2023 and 2024 and there was record investment in 2025. This included increased capital investment. Regarding foster care, 87.2% of all children in State care are cared for in the foster care setting. I cannot overstate the importance of this. It is a great opportunity for children to be placed in the foster care setting, which is excellent. In recognition of that, even though it is at 82.7%, which is high, we want it to be higher. The Department has overseen significant investment in foster care supports, including the foster care allowance. This has been increased to €400 per week for children under 12 and €425 per week for children over 12. Today, there was an announcement in relation to the back-to-school clothing and footwear allowance.”
“It is a shared aim of the Department and Tusla to provide a significant and sufficient number of high-quality placements to children in care, and specific actions are being undertaken in this regard.”
“The Department has actively engaged with Tusla and other stakeholders with regard to addressing issues relating to the supply, recruitment and retention of social workers. A significant range of initiatives have been undertaken in this regard, and Tusla achieved a national increase of almost 5% in social work employment levels between March 2024 and March 2025, with 79 whole-time equivalents. In respect of the Deputy’s query regarding the availability of care placements, Tusla has indicated that there are currently 11 children awaiting residential or foster care in County Clare. I am informed that Tusla has placed all these children in residential respite, short-term fostering or supported lodgings.”
“While I acknowledge the efforts Tusla has made to resolve these specific vacancies, I am aware of the difficulties the agency has faced in recruiting and retaining social workers across the country, while child protection referral rates continue to increase year on year. In that context, Tusla has informed me that there are currently 77 children with no allocated social worker in County Clare. However, I understand that all of these children have been allocated a social care worker, and I am informed that all urgent cases receive a social work service. However, I acknowledge the critical importance of children in care, or in need of child welfare and protection services, being allocated a social worker.”
“The Department funds the provision of a range of Tusla services in County Clare, including family resource centres in Shannon, Kilrush, Ennistymon and Killaloe. These services do great work with children and families throughout Clare, and I am delighted to be able to support that work. According to information provided by Tusla on the number of social workers in Clare, I have been informed that 20 social workers are currently employed in the county. Three vacancies exist, and I understand that Tusla has undertaken a number of initiatives to address these vacancies, which are expected to be filled over the summer months. These vacancies originate from October 2023, May 2024 and June of this year.”
“Tuigim go bhfuil gá le háiseanna a chur ar fáil trí mhean na Gaeilge freisin. I completely understand that there is a need for facilities that work through the medium of Irish to be provided for. This is not just in terms of childcare but also includes a range of facilities that fall within the remit of the Department. That is a hugely important initiative.”
“I will begin by addressing Deputy Gould's points. The express purpose last year of introducing the guidelines to schools was to ensure that they would have a freedom, at the end of the school day, to introduce things like after-school provision. As part of the guidelines, schools were informed that any funding they received through that would not impact on any grants they received from the Department of Education. It would a matter entirely for themselves to hold so that boards of management would feel that they had a freedom if it was their wish to provide after-school activities by having a provider step in, or whatever. I am just pointing out that this is a reality. Also, the public model I referred to earlier is looking at instances where no capacity is available in a particular area.”
“We absolutely recognise that there are areas across the country where it is extremely challenging for the needs of parents to be met. For this reason, the Department is taking a number of initiatives, such as the building blocks extension scheme to provide assistance for an existing provider to put on an extension and to provide for more places. Where that is not a possibility and where no provider is in place, there is a commitment in the programme for Government to introduce State-led facilities. There would be a public model for the purchasing or building of a facility to provide for the needs in an area. To support this work, there is now a forward planning unit in the Department, specifically looking at areas of the country where there is an absence of facilities.”
“The programme for Government also sets out the ambition to work with schools to host before- and after-school childcare in school buildings, as well as planning the development of State-led early learning and childcare facilities in tandem with the school building programme. Last year, the Department of education published procedures on the use of school property and sports facilities outside of school hours - I was keen to publish this and did so last year. This guideline provides encouragement and guidance to schools to make available facilities for early learning and childcare and other community purposes when the space is not required by the school. Officials have met several times with officials from the Department of education planning and building unit to share expertise and information on this.”
“We continue to support sustainability and expansion of the sector through ongoing development and resourcing of core funding, which has given rise to a significant expansion of places since the scheme was first introduced. Core funding supports providers with operating costs based on the number of places available. A forward planning and delivery unit within the Department has been expanded, with the allocation of additional staff in its pursuit of an ambitious programme of work. For the first time, the programme for Government commits to providing capital investment to build or purchase State-owned early learning and childcare facilities to create additional capacity in areas where unmet need exists.”
“I acknowledge the Deputy's question which specifically asks about after-school and general childcare places. Early learning and childcare capacity is increasing, which is an important point to make at the outset. The estimated number of enrolments increased by approximately 19% between 2022 and 2024. Enrolments in Cork county and city each increased by almost 29% in the same period. Core funding application data shows between years one and three of the scheme, annual place hours increased by more than 15%. The growth in school age childcare plans has been particularly strong. Data from Tusla shows there was an increase of 34 services on the school-age register in Cork alone in 2024.”
“I thank Deputies Cooney and McAuliffe. I will go to the last question first. The building blocks scheme has been positively welcomed and will deliver an additional 1,500 places, which is hugely important. The budget available for that was €25 million and I appreciate this brings its own constraints but it is delivering 1,500 additional places. As I previously outlined, we are also working on payment for staff with the money being ring-fenced and put on the table being the €45 million. Specifically on Deputy Cooney's question, it is very difficult to determine families who have different needs at different times and therefore may require longer or lesser hours in a childcare facility. It is a matter for parents in this respect because we do not know their individual circumstances but I hear the point he raises.”
“I thank the Deputy. To be clear, I am under no illusions regarding the importance of retaining staff in this sector. I have been clear on that from the outset. We can make all the progress we want in having additional places and more accommodations available but if we do not have staff working in the sector, we achieve nothing at all. Suffice to say, the Government has put €45 million on the table for this year that is ring-fenced, solely for the purpose of ensuring there will be an increase in wages for staff working in the sector. The decision on that, however, is a matter for the joint labour committee which is independent of the Government. I have met committee members on a couple of occasions and have been clear on my personal view on all that funding being used for staff but it will be an independent decision.”
“Last year, as I mentioned, there was a net increase of 226 childcare services and previous years also saw net increases in the number of childcare services. The net increase and total number of childcare services was 46, 51, 30 and 129 in 2020, 2021, 2022 and 2023, respectively. Year on year, we are seeing a net increase and that is testament to the significant amount of State funding going into this sector to support providers, while also ensuring we have additional places and staff who are appropriately remunerated.”
“I thank the Deputy. Every year it is normal for some services to open and for some services to close. The year 2024 saw a five-year high in the number of childcare services opening and a five-year low in the number of early learning and childcare services closing. A total of 357 services opened, while 131 services closed, which resulted in a net increase of 226 childcare services opening in 2024. There have been year-on-year increases in the number of childcare services opening since registration of school-age childcare began in 2019. The register and related data are updated monthly by Tusla and reported to my Department the following month. The data I have available from Tusla from the end of 2024 indicates a total of 5,106 childcare services were registered with Tusla at that time.”
“Significant work has been done to support smaller providers. Previously the lower base of funding they had was a guaranteed €8,500. The base income that is guaranteed has increased to €14,400. Quite a body of work is under way.”
“Obviously it is a core objective of the Government that we would maximise the number of providers in place. To do this we are lending support to private providers through schemes such as building blocks. We have also said we will step in where there is an absence of providers in an area. We are doing work on how this public model would look and what it would look like. Issues have been raised about the commitment in the planning guidelines to have places available for populations of 75 houses. Childcare facilities have been built which are not being used as childcare facilities. I am working with the Minister for housing to ensure there will be updated guidelines for planning in this respect. If a facility is built it needs to be used for the purpose for which it was built, in this instance for the provision of childcare.”
“Equally, there is a commitment from Government, through the forward planning unit, that where there is a lack of capacity being delivered in certain areas, we will move forward with a public model where that might be necessary.”
“I have always been very clear that this is like a triangle. There is no point in reducing fees if there are no places for children to attend, and there is no point in having children available and reduced fees if we do not have staff who will work in the sector. There are three elements to this. On having sufficient places, I want to be clear. Sufficient funding has been provided by Government in terms of core funding. There has been an unprecedented level of investment by Government. There has been a net increase of 226 providers moving into this area. Notwithstanding that, we have to continue working in the area. The Government recently announced the building blocks scheme, which will provide an additional 1,500 places.”
“The objective is to ensure the costs for parents are affordable, there are sufficient places and staff in the sector are being remunerated appropriately.”
“I want to be clear. This is a commitment over the lifetime of the Government. The more quickly we take steps the better, and the more quickly we will be able to deliver. In the fewer than five months during which the Government has been in office, we have taken the first very significant step regarding fee caps. We should not underestimate the significance of fee caps. Families who, prior to this, were paying €325 saw a reduction to €295, and with the subsidy they are now paying less than €200 per week. That is an example of the trajectory we wish to follow. I also acknowledge that, while we were doing that for the significant number of people paying very high fees, the fee freeze remains in place for the others. There are a number of different streams.”
“Core funding has enjoyed high participation rates to date, with 92% of services taking part. Preparations for the first Estimates process for this Government are under way and I am committed to bringing forward proposals to make further progress in this area. Work is also under way to develop an action plan to build an affordable, high-quality and accessible early learning and childcare system, informed by stakeholder consultation. This will set out future steps to reduce the cost of childcare further to €200 per month.”
“The early childhood care and education, ECCE, programme provides two years of preschool without charge and has participation rates of 96%. The national childcare scheme complements ECCE, giving universal and targeted subsidies to reduce costs to parents. Recent improvements include the extension of the universal subsidy to children under 15 and two increases to the minimum hourly subsidy, now worth €96.30 per week for 45 hours. Almost 220,000 children benefited from a subsidy in 2024. Since last September, children in childminding settings can also benefit from national childcare scheme subsidies. In addition, the fee management system introduced through core funding has made sure the investment in affordability is not absorbed by unnecessary fee increases.”
“I thank the Deputy. Earlier this month, I announced the introduction of maximum fee caps for all partner services in core funding from September 2025. The fee freeze will remain in place for all partner services with fees below these caps. This is an important step towards the reduction of childcare fees to €200 per month over the lifetime of this Government. Maximum fee caps were introduced for new services last year, and this September they will be extended to existing services. Under the new fee caps, the highest possible fees will be no more than €295 per week for a full day of 40 to 50 hours per week. Once the national childcare scheme subsidy is taken into account, the maximum fee for a parent in this situation will be less than €200 per week. This latest measure builds on a range of supports already in place.”
“I will absolutely know a lot when this process concludes. I have always been clear that there are two elements to this, namely, the providers and the employees. One cannot work without the other. They must work together in the best interests of the children we serve. The mechanism we have currently, as the Deputy has outlined, is the joint labour committee. We have all made our views clear as to how we would like to see that process work, while respecting the independence of the committee. I will be in a better position to judge everything once all of this process is concluded. I want the best possible outcome. I have been clear in that regard. I hope that will be delivered. Our core aim is to ensure that we have viable costs for parents and a sufficiency of places and that staff who work in the sector are suitably recompensed.”
“There is agreement across the House that money ring-fenced for staff should go to staff. I acknowledge that has been Deputy Kerrane’s personal view from the beginning. I met joint labour committee representatives today and I have met them previously. While they are entirely independent of me, it is important I take every opportunity, as the Deputy has, to articulate that money on the table is specifically ring-fenced for staff. It should go directly to them. While I referenced it briefly earlier, I wish to mention that although pay is a key component, other important issues were identified by the group as well. For example, the student fast-track process was an important issue for the group where students who have reached a particular level, such as level 5, could be acknowledged for that and work as they moved to levels 7 and 8.”
“I recently met joint labour committee representatives - in fact, I met them again today - to acknowledge their important role and to emphasise the Government’s expectation that any newly negotiated orders fully utilise the ring-fenced the funding available. My officials also continue to discuss issues of recruitment and retention with stakeholders through a subgroup of the early learning and childcare stakeholder forum. While the general consensus of the group is that pay is the single biggest issue, the group continues to identify other actions, including: a student fast-track process; the assessment of unfinished qualifications; and an agreement to promote careers in the sector.”
“The joint labour committee process is the mechanism by which employer and employee representatives can negotiate minimum pay rates, which are set down in law through employment regulation orders. Outcomes from the joint labour committee process are supported by the Government through core funding, which has seen its allocation increase from €259 million in year 1 to €350 million for the coming year 2025 to 2026. An additional €45 million has been ring-fenced to support employers in meeting the costs of further increases to the minimum rates of pay. This allocation is conditional on updated employment regulation orders.”
“I acknowledge that many early learning and childcare services report recruitment and retention challenges. In general, these challenges are not caused by insufficient supply of staff, but by high levels of turnover. Data from the sector profile survey shows a turnover rate of 24.5% in 2023, with almost one third of the turnover rate due to staff moving from one provider to another. I note that new data on the number of educators or practitioners working in the sector increased by 10% between 2023 and 2024. Turnover is linked to pay and working conditions. However, while the Government is the primary funder of the sector, the State is not an employer of staff. Neither I nor my Department set pay or working conditions.”
“Historians such as Diarmaid Ferriter have rightly pointed out that the reference to cherishing all of the children equally was intended to reassure the Protestant minority of their place in the new republic. However, those words have been taken as inspiration ever since for the need to do better and be better for our children and our people. I welcome the opportunity to work with Senators on these proposals. I recognise that, despite the great progress we have made, many social issues and barriers remain for individuals in Ireland. We must do more to support them. We all share a common objective to protect all people living in Ireland from discrimination in their daily lives.”
“The Government is committed to addressing poverty and social exclusion. Introduction of a socioeconomic ground will not address many of the root causes of disadvantage on its own. When combined with social inclusion measures, however, it can be one important step in tackling the discrimination faced by very marginalised members of our society and can encourage change. It is always good to remind ourselves in these Houses of the stirring words of the 1916 Proclamation: The Republic guarantees religious and civil liberty, equal rights and equal opportunities to all its citizens, and declares its resolve to pursue the happiness and prosperity of the whole nation and of all its parts, cherishing all the children of the nation equally...”
“While the Bill under consideration today is in line with Government policy in this area, it is crucial the potential costs and, equally, the proposed wording are carefully considered to ensure there are no unintended consequences. The purpose of the amendment to the motion is to allow time for the Government to complete work on the proposals. It is vital this happens to ensure we can stand over any proposal and be absolutely confident it is fully tested. Discrimination on the basis of disadvantaged socioeconomic status should be unacceptable in today's Ireland. As I referenced earlier, links between poverty and discrimination are well documented and discrimination on the basis of socioeconomic status has been frequently raised as an issue by individuals and organisations working in the field of equality law.”
“Once that work is completed, I intend to bring forward a legislative proposal as part of the wider legislation arising out of the Department's review of the equality Acts. That review has already led to a general scheme and heads of Bill, which were approved by the Government in November last year. The equality and family leave (miscellaneous provisions) Bill has been given priority for drafting by the Government, and I intend to refer the general scheme shortly to the newly formed Joint Committee on Children and Equality for pre-legislative scrutiny. The planned reforms included in the general scheme aim to improve the effectiveness of the equality Acts in combating discrimination and promoting equality for all.”
“Extensive work has been carried out by officials in the Department to scope and develop policy on what a new ground should and could encompass. This ongoing work is intended to ensure we can bring forward a proposal that gives absolute clarity as to everyone's rights and obligations under the law. There is a long-standing Government policy, known as the SME test, of checking the impact of any new measures that will directly or indirectly impact on small and medium-sized enterprises. This is in recognition of the importance to our economy of the more than 300,000 SMEs that employ in excess of 1.1 million people. Officials are currently engaging with key business organisations to seek their views on the potential impact on SMEs of this proposal.”
“The definition of "socioeconomic disadvantage" in this Bill is where a person or group suffers from disadvantage resulting from one or more of the following criteria: poverty, source of income, illiteracy, level of education, address, type of housing or homelessness, employment status, social or regional accent, or any other similar circumstance. In July 2023, a report was published under my predecessor on submissions received as part of a consultation on Ireland's equality legislation. Of the submissions concerned with the potential introduction of a socioeconomic equality ground, the vast majority were supportive. However, not all submissions welcomed the proposal. Significant concerns were raised about the potential for such a ground to give rise to unintended consequences and have significant implications for employers and employees.”
“As the Senators will be aware, the proposed introduction of this ground has been the subject of a number of previous Private Member’s Bills, which have been referenced. Past attempts to legislate in this area have been held back by difficulties in defining terms such as "socioeconomic status" or "disadvantaged socioeconomic status" with the degree of absolute clarity and lack of ambiguity necessary for the Statute Book. I recognise that a lot of thought and work was put into drafting the definition in the Bill. It is appreciated that this was not an easy task. The work has been of great assistance to officials in the Department of equality in their ongoing consideration of this important issue. I acknowledge that.”
“The previous programme for Government included a commitment to introducing a new ground of socioeconomic discrimination into our equality legislation and, in November 2024, the Government approved in principle the introduction of a new equality ground of socioeconomic disadvantage in the equality legislation. The Government is anxious to progress this work and officials are working on carrying out the necessary assessment of the potential costs for the Exchequer and the potential impact on small and medium enterprises of such a move. The most significant challenge in introducing a new ground for discrimination into the equality Acts is in ensuring that it can be understood by everyone. The public and businesses, small and large, need to be clear on what the ground is and what it covers.”
“Nelson Mandela, a leader who did so much in his life to advance, equality of opportunity for the people of South Africa, once remarked, “I am influenced more than ever before by the conviction that social equality is the only basis of human happiness.” I know the Senators are all involved in advancing a whole variety of aspects of equality through their work in this Chamber and beyond. I want to mention briefly in his absence Senator Victor Boyhan, who organised a screening of a film “We Will Not Sit Down and Be Quiet” in the audiovisual room in Leinster House yesterday to highlight the rights of people with disabilities which was an important showcase. I thank the Senator for that.”