Norma Foley
Kerry · Fianna Fáil · Ireland
“Therefore, the means by which the motion proposes to address the challenges raised may not specifically align with the approach being taken, but I absolutely accept that the underlying goals are the same and I accept the Deputies' sincerity in seeking to achieve them.”
“I intend to bring forward specific proposals arising from this work towards the end of the year, depending on progress and the outcome of ongoing engagement with stakeholders.”
“Working with that office, the Department of Children, Disability and Equality is absolutely committed to seeking to expand and reform specialist disability services in order to maximise individuals’ independence and support them to live lives of their choosing in places of their choosing.”
“A number of new measures are in train to move towards planned provision of residential supports, including the provision of planned residential placements under a new initiative, as outlined in the HSE’s 2026 national service plan.”
“I absolutely accept they are fighting tirelessly to highlight the need for us to ensure their loved ones are cared for and provided with appropriate housing, as and when it is needed. For far too many families, placements are made at the last minute, causing distress to individuals and their families.”
“In line with commitments contained in the programme for Government and the national human rights strategy, the Department of Children, Disability and Equality is now developing a new vision and reform strategy for disability services.”
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“I also acknowledge, specifically in terms of retention, that the early learning and childcare stakeholder forum now has a subgroup on recruitment and retention looking at a variety of issues, chief among them, of course, the issue of pay, but also other issues that would provide supports right across the sector.”
“I absolutely agree with the Deputy. It is to everyone's benefit, most especially the children, that we have suitably remunerated and qualified staff. That is the purpose of specifically ring-fencing the funding this year. As I have already said, it is my absolute desire that it would be used in full for that purpose. I also acknowledge that there is significant work under way to support those who might wish to enhance their qualifications through the nurture skills programme, where opportunities are being given for 90% of the costs to be covered for those who might wish to move forward towards a level 7 or level 8 qualification. That is being piloted, there has been a great uptake on it and we look forward to another successful year of it this year.”
“It is hugely important, therefore, that the committee engage in productive negotiations to ensure the high level of investment being made through core funding for improved pay is maximised. I look forward to the outcome of the joint labour committee.”
“As I have reiterated, I outlined to representatives that the Government expects that the funding secured to support the costs of increased minimum pay rates to be used for its intended purpose - that is the absolute clarity: the money is ring-fenced and it should be used for the intended purpose - and that any new employment regulation orders would utilise the amount in its entirety. Data available to the Department shows previous employment regulation orders have not absorbed the available core funding signalled for staff pay and graduate leaders. The level of pay for staff in the sector does not reflect the value of the work being done by the employees for children, families, society and the economy.”
“As the Deputy has referenced, an additional €45 million has been ring-fenced to support employers to meet the costs of further increases to the minimum rates of pay and is contingent on updated employment regulation orders. As I have already said, I met recently with joint labour committee representatives to acknowledge the committee's important role and work and to outline the Government’s continued support for the sector as a whole and for the entire joint labour committee process, as outlined in the programme for Government.”
“I thank the Deputy and I appreciate the question. The Deputy has engaged with me on an ongoing basis on this. As I have stated previously, the State is not the employer of staff in the sector and neither I nor the Department can set their pay or determine working conditions. The joint labour committee is the formal mechanism established by which employer and employee representatives can negotiate minimum pay rates set down in employment regulation orders. As I have said previously, I acknowledge that the joint labour committee is wholly independent in its functions and I do not have a role in its statutory negotiation process. Outcomes from the joint labour committee process are supported by Government through core funding, which will increase to €350 million in the programme year 2025-26.”
“I want to be clear that I absolutely respect the independence of the joint labour committee. It is important it would do its work and that it would have that independence, but I am acknowledging there is that €45 million available and it is my view it should go for the purpose of salaries. The Deputy referenced the previous EROs and what occurred there. I acknowledge that the setting of minimum rates of pay in the previous two EROs was not a product of the joint labour committee negotiation process but as a consequence of the Labour Court setting the rate, and the Labour Court does not have to take into account the money that is made available to support the sector. While we are focusing here on salaries, there is a broader piece of work being done on the entire service.”
“I am equally clear that providers need resourcing. As I have said, €350 million in core funding is being made available this year. Work is also under way in terms of minimising the administrative burden that providers speak about. There is a body of work under way.”
“I acknowledge this is a personal interest of Deputy Kerrane because she has raised it on many occasions. It is my absolute determination that €45 million is being made available and it is my absolute wish that that €45 million is used fully, totally and wholly for the purpose for which it is given. I would always say, irrespective of whether I am inside the House or outside, that if we do not have a workforce and if they do not feel that they are appropriately remunerated and valued, they will go elsewhere. It is really important. That is obviously to the benefit of providers who are providing the service, it is to the benefit of parents but, most of all, it is to the benefit of the children who are in their care. I am clear about that €45 million and how I would like to see it being utilised.”
“I outlined to representatives that Government expects the funding secured - the €45 million - will support the costs of increased minimum pay rates and will be used for the purpose for which it is given in any new employment regulation orders, and that the full amount will be utilised. Data available to the Department shows previous employment regulation orders do not absorb the available core funding signalled for staff pay and graduate leaders. The level of pay for staff in the sector does not reflect the value of their work for children, families, society and the economy. Therefore, it is vitally important that the committee engages in productive negotiations about ensuring the high level of investment being made through core funding for improved pay is maximised. I look forward to the joint labour committee negotiated outcomes.”
“An additional €45 million, as the Deputy referenced, has been ring-fenced to support employers to meet the costs of further increases to the minimum rates of pay and is contingent on updated employment regulation orders. Core funding forms part of a significant State investment of €1.37 billion in funding under budget 2025 for early learning and childcare. I recently met with joint labour committee representatives to acknowledge the committee's important role, to outline the Government’s continued support for the sector as a whole and, as outlined in the programme for Government, for the joint labour committee process.”
“As the State is not the employer of staff in this sector, neither I nor the Department can set pay or determine working conditions. The joint labour committee is the formal mechanism established by which employer and employee representatives can negotiate minimum pay rates, which are set down in employment regulation orders. I absolutely acknowledge the joint labour committee is independent in its functions and I do not have a role in its statutory negotiation process. However, outcomes from the joint labour committee process are supported by Government through core funding, which in the programme year 2025-26 will increase to €350 million.”
“Equally, where there are gaps, it is appropriate that the Government steps in and makes provision for places being made available, whether these are State-run or whatever way they will be run. A forward-planning model is already up and running in the Department and there is a budgetary consideration around the €200 per month.”
“I will be clear. I am very happy to engage with the Deputy on this. I engage on an ongoing basis with stakeholders on whatever body of work needs to be done. He is right. We are unanimous in our acknowledgement across every sector within this Chamber that a job of work needs to be done and must continue to be done in this sector. However, while significant progress has been made, more progress needs to be made. Specifically, for example, and the Deputy referenced this, we must ensure workers in this area are appropriately remunerated. A sum of €45 million has been ring-fenced for that purpose this year to ensure that providers can continue and €350 million will be made available to them through core funding in the next tranche of funding.”
“I agree with much of what the Deputy said. It is much of Government policy insofar as the key elements of that policy are, in the first instance, to manage and reduce costs for parents, which is a key anchor, and, second, to ensure sustainability of the service is being provided and that providers are sustainable in moving forward. A further element is to increase provision of places and to ensure we have a workforce that is properly recompensed for the work it does in this area. On affordability for parents, and I referenced this, significant core funding of almost €1 billion by the Government has gone into ensuring that money is in place to ensure reduced costs for parents. In addition, the national childcare scheme has undergone a number of enhancements, which include the extension of the universal subsidy to all children under 15.”
“Officials are currently developing a mapping tool, using administrative data on schemes and population location, to identify areas where supply and demand mismatches are greatest. A recent Ipsos poll to parents will also help inform future planning. This will enable the State to step in where it is necessary. As the Deputy will appreciate, we are at the very early stages of the programme for Government but work is under way.”
“The early childhood care and education programme provides two years of preschool without charge and enjoys a participation rate of 96% each year. The national childcare scheme is now worth a minimum of €96.20 per child per week for 45 hours. This Government is also committed to providing capital investment to build or purchase State-owned early learning and childcare facilities to create additional capacity in areas where unmet need exists. This would mark a very substantial and significant shift in the policy direction that the Department has pursued thus far. A forward-planning model is now in development which will be central to the Department's plans to achieve the policy goals to build an affordable, high-quality, accessible early learning and childcare system, with State-led facilities adding capacity.”
“The Deputy is correct. The Government has made a significant commitment to improve accessibility, availability, affordability and the quality of early learning and childcare provision. Investment in early learning and childcare is now at an unprecedented level with public funding exceeding €1.37 billion in 2025, clearly demonstrating the Government’s commitment to this area. The programme for Government provides the impetus to go much further and to deliver much more high-quality early learning and childcare places at a cost that is affordable to families. I am committed to establishing a €200 per child per month cap on early learning and childcare costs for families within the lifetime of the Government. This work will build on the significant measures taken to date to improve affordability.”
“The officials are working on the solution and the 2021-22 fees list will be made available through the county and city childcare committees. Also published will be the list of services that have been approved to increase their fees through the fee increase assessment process. It is the Department's best estimate currently that this will be available in the coming weeks. I am happy to engage with the Deputy. I know this is important information for parents. I know there is an absolute acknowledgement that considerable work has been achieved in this space. There has been significant money in core funding, with €331 million for this year alone, which will rise to €350 million. The purpose of core funding is to ensure reduced costs for parents but also that there is support for providers.”
“Just short of €1 billion has gone into core funding and there has been significant improvement. It is important that parents have access to information on what the fees were in 2021 to 2022. As I said, that will be available through the childcare committee.”
“I acknowledge the manner in which the Deputy and his party leader have followed this through. What I can say is that the portal was recently upgraded and it now includes fee lists for the previous programme year of 2023 to 2024. There is an issue at present - there is no point in saying there is not - in terms of the capacity of the Hive website to go further back. To ameliorate that or make recompense, the officials are currently working to ensure that the 2021-22 fees list will be available. I am told it will be available in the coming weeks and that is the best commitment I can give. I am happy to revert to the Deputy and discuss this with him again in a few weeks if it is not made available to him. That is the situation as it stands. Enormous money has gone into the whole issue of childcare. Of that, there is no doubt.”
“In the meantime, parents can contact the parent support centre by phone or by completing a contact form on the website to ask about year-on-year comparison of fee lists for their individual early learning and childcare service. Parents can also contact their local city and county childcare committees. Childcare committees support parents and guardians to understand their early learning and childcare options and keep an updated directory of early learning and childcare services in their local areas. They can also provide information and support in relation to fees.”
“There is no scope to provide historical fees lists on the portal in the short term owing to competing ICT demands. However, officials at the Department are working on an interim solution in order to make the 2021-22 fees list available through the city and county childcare committees. The list of services that have been approved to increase their fees through the fee increases assessment process will also be published. I anticipated the fee lists will be available through the network of childcare committees in the coming weeks. I know that is not what the Deputy asked for, but it is the mechanism available to us in the interim.”
“Thanks very much, Deputy. I am aware the childcare search on the Hive website does not currently contain fees listed for services for the programme year 2021 to 2022. The portal was originally designed to contain information for the current programme year only. In addition to service fee lists, the following information is available on the portal: contact details for services; whether services are private, community or childminding services; a services calendar, which provides details of services' operating hours per week and the number of weeks operating per year; whether the service offers the early childhood care and education programme or the national childcare scheme; and whether it is taking part in the core funding scheme. The portal was recently upgraded to provide fee lists for the previous programme year, 2023 to 2024.”
“An issue has been raised around developing a new policy in adult safeguarding. That is under way by the Department of Health and should be coming before us shortly.”
“Safeguarding is everybody's responsibility and should be everybody's business. I am committed to working with the HSE and Tusla to ensure there is a focus on continually enhancing the approach to safeguarding across all services. We are conscious of the obligations on us as individuals, whether working in the field of education, sport or whatever. When we deal with young people, we are all mandated persons and there is a process that needs to be followed. There is a body of work under way on adult safeguarding, which has also been raised. The HSE has introduced a national policy on safeguarding vulnerable persons at risk of abuse and has established a national safeguarding office and safeguarding protection teams. For the first time, the HSE has appointed a chief social worker, which is an important step forward.”
“I thank the Deputy. She is 100% right. There must be learnings from this. We are conscious this is the story of Grace and others. It is important to point out that since Grace's case first arose, there have been a number of steps forward in safeguarding. There was the development of the Ombudsman for Children's Office, the establishment of HIQA, the establishment of Tusla - Child and Family Agency, and the commencement of the Children First Act. It is important we do not stop there but remain constantly in the space of being proactive. In that respect, I am intent on ensuring there will be an expert-driven non-statutory safeguarding exercise that will identity the learnings from the commission's findings. We are already seeking an appropriate individual or individuals to conduct that work.”
“In that context and on the advice of the Attorney General, there is no basis for moving forward to a phase 2 of the commission of investigation. However, it is important to take every precaution to ensure the lessons from Grace’s case are applied. In that respect, I intend to undertake an expert-driven, non-statutory safeguarding exercise to identify learnings from the commission’s findings to inform present-day safeguarding policies and practices. My officials are actively seeking to identify an appropriate expert or experts in the field of safeguarding to carry out this exercise. The seven people referenced in the commission’s statement on part X and-or their representatives are being invited to participate in this exercise and share their lived experience, if they wish to do so.”
“The commission’s statement on part X conclusions indicates that there is an absence of information in the possession of the commission identifying issues for further investigation with respect to the role or conduct of public authorities in respect of seven cases identified, akin to the type of concerns raised in respect of Grace, save for two cases where the role of public authorities has already been investigated and reported upon by the commission. On the treatment of protected disclosures by whistleblowers, the commission’s statement on part X does not identify further information that would point to the merits of embarking on further investigation into how the protected disclosures were treated or the treatment of those making protected disclosures.”
“The commission of investigation into certain matters relative to a disability service in the south east and related matters, or the Farrelly commission, is an independent statutory commission of investigation established in 2017 to investigate the care and protection of Grace, which, as we are all aware, is a pseudonym, and others in a former foster home in the south east, which has been the subject of abuse allegations. It is important to note that at the heart of the report is the story of Grace, the pseudonym chosen to protect the identity and privacy of the young woman who lived with the foster family. The final substantive report on the first phase of the Farrelly commission and the commission's statement concerning part X of its terms of reference was published on 15 April 2025.”
“We are very much in the planning phase for what I anticipate will be an exciting number of years to come. Core to this planning will be engagement with stakeholders across the sector. The programme for Government outlines the intention to undertake a broad consultation ahead of publishing a detailed action plan to build an affordable, high-quality, accessible early learning and childcare system with State-led facilities adding capacity. This plan will enhance parental choice through ongoing support for public, private and community provision, as well as childminders. I look forward to updating this House on the action plan as it develops.”
“The point of this – and I want to be clear on this – is to provide additional capacity. It is to complement what might already be there. State ownership of early learning and childcare facilities is a substantial and significant shift in the policy direction the Department has pursued heretofore. It offers the potential for much greater scope to influence the nature and volume of provision available and to ensure better alignment with estimated demand. Importantly, we are committing to progressively reduce the cost of early learning and childcare to €200 per child in the lifetime of this Government. My officials are examining this ambitious commitment and exploring approaches to achieve this objective most effectively. I look forward to working with them on these proposals and I know that is important to this Chamber also.”
“This is a positive step forward. We would effectively have a forward planning unit so that, at the earliest possible moment, we could seek to gather what the needs might be in specific areas across the country. The unit is developing the forward planning models to assist in identifying where unmet need or demand and areas of low supply exist. The model will be central to the Department's plans to achieve the policy goals set out in the programme for Government to build an affordable, high-quality, accessible early learning and childcare system with State-led facilities adding capacity. For the first time, the programme for Government also commits to providing capital investment to build or purchase State-owned facilities to create additional capacity in areas where unmet need exists.”
“It called for the State to play a larger role in capacity planning and developing the sector to align with need, as well as examining the introduction of public provision to complement private provision. These are areas where some progress has been made but we need to step up our efforts. The programme for Government builds on the initiatives in recent years since the publication of Partnership for the Public Good and provides the impetus now to go much further and deliver on that mandate. Last year, a supply management unit was established in the Department and the programme for Government articulates an intention that the unit be resourced and transformed into a forward planning and delivery unit to identify areas of need, forecast demand and deliver public supply within the early learning and childcare sector where required.”
“The expansion of regulations to allow for access to the subsidy schemes by families who use registered childminders was also achieved late last year, fulfilling commitments in the national action plan for childminding. I hope to see childminder registration numbers gather pace in this three-year transition period until September 2027, before registration becomes mandatory. During the transition period, the Department is providing supports at local level through the city and county childcare committees. The childminding development grant provided by the Department is open for applications until 4 April. The expert group report also made several recommendations regarding the role of the State in the sector to enable greater public management.”
“Further extensions of the access and inclusion model for younger children and school-going children are now being considered and I would like to see that move forward. Equal start - akin to the DEIS model we have in our schools - has also been introduced to support inclusion of children from disadvantaged backgrounds in early learning and childcare. Services with a priority designation under equal start are now in receipt of funding for additional staff hours. They can be used to support engagement between the services and families, services and other child and family support services, training in inclusive practices and to support other educators and practitioners in the provision of early learning and childcare to children with higher levels of need. An additional nutrition programme will be rolled out in these services from September.”
“It is my absolute desire that the full €45 million will be used for this purpose alone. The national childcare scheme has increased subsidy rates paid to parents which, along with fee controls under core funding and other reforms of the scheme, are delivering much greater affordability for parents. This is important. Recent data from the OECD shows low-income households in Ireland now pay at or below the OECD average for early learning and childcare for the first time. Again, I accept that out-of-pocket costs for some parents remain far too high, in particular for parents with three or more children. The access and inclusion model, AIM, has already been extended to children in the preschool programme outside of preschool hours in term and out of term. This is making an enormous difference to the lives of children with a disability.”
“The joint labour committee, JLC, process has seen the agreement of two rounds of employment regulation orders, EROs, establishing new minimum rates of pay for staff at various grades supported by core funding. This has resulted in pay increases for a large cohort of staff in the sector. However, and I want to be clear about this, I recognise that we need to build on this to ensure that qualified staff are attracted and retained, and that more needs to be done in this area. With regard to progressing this, an additional €15 million is being made available from September, the equivalent of a €45 million investment in a full year, to support the agreement of a third round of employment regulation orders by the joint labour committee for the purposes of staff wages.”
“The key theme of this report was the need to strengthen State involvement in the sector through greater levels of public management, accompanied by greater levels of public funding. Significant reforms have been delivered since then and they provide a solid foundation for the next stage of development by the Government. The core funding scheme was introduced in 2022. Now in its third year, €331 million will be invested in the sector through the scheme to deliver improved pay for educators and practitioners, to control parental fees and to support providers. The scheme has been key to starting to unlock some of the long-standing challenges specific to the sector.”
“In particular, there has been significant progress in the areas of affordability for parents, pay for educators and practitioners and, in particular, the inclusion of children with disabilities and children who experienced disadvantage. This is very important. I intend to build on this progress in the years ahead. I recognise that we need to go further to support parents, educators, practitioners and providers throughout the early learning and childcare sector, with the focus always being on ensuring that children who utilise the service have the very best of, and positive, experiences. The pathway to developing the sector was set out in Partnership for the Public Good, the report of the expert group agreed by the Government in 2021.”
“I welcome the opportunity to discuss in the Seanad today the issue of early learning and childcare. The Government recognises the importance of early learning and childcare services to society and to the economy. Most importantly, we recognise the importance of the service to the thousands of children and families they serve every day. This is very clear in the programme for Government. On this note, I was pleased to be part of the negotiating team for the programme for Government. I am pleased with the commitments that have been made very specifically to the area of early learning and childcare. Backed by record increases in investment over the term of the previous Government, early learning and childcare in Ireland have been transformed in recent years.”
“One of the best developments in Gaelic football has been the introduction of "hand back the ball", the rule that says when the referee blows the whistle for a foul, you hand back the ball. It is a mark of dignity and respect, and it has reduced unnecessary schemozzles, flare-ups and everything else. Colleagues, now is the time to hand back the ball to the Ceann Comhairle. Respect her office and those who work in her office. Hand back the ball; game on.”
“She is the first woman elected to the office of Ceann Comhairle, a landmark moment and an opportunity for us to showcase that no high office is beyond the reach of any woman. However, rather than being honoured, she has been hounded. As parliamentarians, we must do better. We have a choice about how we behave in this Chamber. We have a choice to opt for civility. Everyone knows that we in Kerry love our football and we had a good day - actually, we had a great day - last Sunday in Croke Park.”
“That beautiful Irish phrase reminds us that we live in the shadows of one another, and as such, there should be a prevailing environment of co-operation, respect and honour for one another, and most especially, in this House. If there were a report card from last week, it would read that this House needs to do better and this House needs to be better. As Members who have the privilege of being elected to this House, we all sign up to the Houses of the Oireachtas dignity and respect policy. One of the core principles is that we must have positive, courteous working relationships with each other, respecting the value of our respective roles. Deputy Verona Murphy, as Ceann Comhairle, is deserving of that respect for her constitutional role in this House.”
“The writer Samuel Johnson has observed that "once the forms of civility are violated", kindness and decency are challenged. In our schools, we have a policy of cineáltas - kindness or civility. I am thankful that there were very few students in the Public Gallery last week to witness what happened in this Chamber, a Chamber at the heart of our democracy. Last Tuesday, civility was replaced by chaos. There were appalling scenes of vitriol, screaming, shouting, uproar and pandemonium. This is not who we are as Irish people or as democrats. This is certainly not who we are or should be as parliamentarians. Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireann na daoine; ba chóir go mbeadh comhoibriú, meas agus ómós do gach duine.”
“I confirm I am not in a position to accept the amendments to the motion proposed today, as I already outlined. The draft order being considered cannot be made law until a resolution approving the order has been passed by each House. Therefore, Senators' approval of the motion is essential to ensure the continuation of the scheme for a further year.”
“Again, I will be abundantly clear. I confirm that only one matter is under consideration here today and that is to extend the scheme. There is no reference to payment or funding. It is simply to extend the scheme. If Senators vote down the scheme, they will vote down the opportunity for 37,600 people to avail of their existing accommodation under it. I sincerely thank all who have welcomed Ukrainians into their homes as a result of the ARP scheme and provided them with a safe space, human connection and a level of autonomy over their own lives and those of their families. I again record my appreciation of the work undertaken by the Irish Red Cross and its partners in mobilising pledged accommodation and supporting hosts and beneficiaries alike.”
“As mentioned, and I appreciate the contributions regarding the moneys paid, it is intended to reduce the monthly ARP from €800 to €600 from June 2025, with the first reduction occurring in July. That decision was made following consultation with an agreement by the relevant Ministers. Such a reduction seeks to address concerns voiced here today and in other forums on the possible displacement effect the ARP is having on the private rental market. I confirm that research is being undertaken by the Department of housing on the impact, if any, of the ARP scheme on the private rental market. The findings of that research are likely to inform the scheme's future direction. A draft order on the reduced payment will be brought before the Oireachtas shortly by my colleague, the Minister for Justice, following the transfer of functions.”
“The accommodation recognition payment is acknowledged as an effective instrument of public policy that we cannot afford to lose at this point. It is in our collective interest to ensure this scheme does not fall. I hope Members will support the motion. Should the scheme be extended, its operation will be the subject of planning across the relevant Departments. As I said, the future of the scheme will need to be reflected in the wider context of considering what comes after the temporary protection directive. It was established at a time of crisis. It is better to have an opportunity to scale down the scheme in an orderly, considered fashion than to abruptly end it without due regard for all those involved.”
“However, a beneficiary may agree with a host to contribute towards certain household costs, such as utilities. The amendment proposing to limit the scheme to those hosting in their primary residence would result in reduced availability of accommodation for beneficiaries in need of shelter. It would preclude unoccupied homes offered through the offer-a-home scheme, such as holiday homes, which have been a valuable source of accommodation. It is clear the scheme has been responsible for introducing an accommodation stream that would not have been otherwise available and which has been a vital element of the State's response to the Ukraine crisis in providing shelter to families who have lost their homes.”