Robin Newton
East Belfast · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“I thank the Member for giving way. The Member is aware that the Education Committee took on the very early role, as he requested. Mrs Dodds made the point that the Bill does not have a natural home, and that many suspect that its required budget will be much greater than that outlined in the Bill.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. She is absolutely right about how despicable a crime human trafficking is and about the attempt, via the Bill, to address it.”
“That is not the type of language that we expect to see from such respected bodies. Their overall concern is the education of our children. They represent schools, and they say that the Bill is "flawed" and "not fit for purpose", but it looks as though we will vote it through. <BR /> <BR />I move now to the history of the Bill.”
“Thank you. There seems to be a similar attitude to this legislation. We, on this side of the Chamber, and indeed others, have consistently argued that a private Member's Bill is not suitable for this type of legislation. The ramifications of the Bill are significant.”
“Again, it has been referred to that the chief executives of the Council for Catholic Maintained Schools; the Controlled Schools' Support Council; the Governing Bodies Association, which is the body covering voluntary grammar schools; the Catholic Schools' Trustee Service; the Transferor Representatives' Council, which represents the Presb…”
“As we have done at every stage, we oppose the Bill. Mr McCrossan is not in the Chamber at the moment, but I am not unlike him in the sense that I believe in all our children being educated together.”
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“It is something that we would encourage and, in fact, personally, have encouraged through the selection of the schools for our children, when we wanted to ensure that integrated education and contact with pupils from different backgrounds would be a feature. <BR /> <BR />At Further Consideration Stage, 28 amendments have been submitted. In this group alone, there are 16. That surely must give concern to the wider public. Surely, it must give concern to everyone in the Chamber that such important legislation, which will have an impact on our education system, the Catholic sector and the controlled sector, and, indeed, at a time when we are coming forward with an independent review of education, is subject to such amendment. Surely that must give concern to everyone in the Chamber.”
“Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I thought that I was being called out of order, there. Anyway, thank you. <BR /> <BR />Like my colleague Mrs Dodds, I oppose amendment Nos 1 to 28 as detailed on the Marshalled List. Mrs Dodds referred in particular to amendment Nos 1 and 2 to clause 3 and amendment No 5 as amendments that give us real cause for concern. <BR /> <BR />We opposed the Bill from the very beginning; at its Second Stage. The Bill has given us extreme concern and it is causing concern in the wider school and education community. I want to say, from the beginning, that we are not opposed to integrated education. I have said it every time I have spoken on the Integrated Education Bill, and I think that I speak for everyone and certainly my colleagues on the Education Committee.”
“I thank the Minister for his response. Minister, it is a simple question that I raised with you 12 months ago in the debate about the Budget as to why there was not an AME line in the Budget for special educational needs provision. At that stage, you indicated to me that you would consider the matter and come back to me.”
“The outcomes of the working of that body will be to ensure that all school pupils are provided with a much more enhanced educational experience in their years in school.”
“There have often been areas of controversy in this mandate between Committee members and the Minister. On this issue, however, if the Minister is to produce a body that will replace the GTC and embrace all its professional functions, she needs the support of the Education Committee, and that support should come forward in a very professional manner in the next mandate. <BR /> <BR />I welcome the fact that the Minister has, indeed, indicated her willingness to consult. That is a very positive step and, in many ways, without exaggerating it, the wider the consultation, the better the report will be in the end. The aim is to produce a body that will promote, protect and enhance the teaching profession.”
“It is not a political decision but a decision to create an organisation that will take the teaching profession forward.”
“I support the Minister in taking this action, as you would when you sit on the Education Committee and a professional consultancy organisation such as Baker Tilly Mooney Moore appears before it and, in providing the background to its work on the review of the General Teaching Council, indicates that its experience of that was not one that it had had previously and that it found the council to be the most dysfunctional organisation that it had experienced. Its report indicated that. <BR /> <BR />I welcome the fact that the Minister has acted, despite moving, as she indicated, into uncharted waters. She outlined the legal risk and indicated that there had already been three enquiries about that risk. I accept that the Minister is making a brave decision, but she is making it for all the right reasons.”
“Here was a body that was supposed to set the standards for the profession that we all hold in high esteem, yet it was not functioning. Professional registration could not take place, the code of professional values, as I mentioned, was not functioning correctly and the reflective view on teaching competences was not being adhered to. <BR /> <BR />I hope that we can agree today that the Minister made the right decision. I also hope that accelerated passage for the Bill will be granted in the Chamber and that we can work towards the establishment of a body that will deliver all the elements that it is supposed to deliver.”
“The council is also an independent body, and its independence is shown by the fact that schoolteachers pay a fee every year to it in order to ensure that standards of teaching are kept up. <BR /> <BR />The body was not able to address issues such as when teachers should be disciplined or even the extreme situations when teachers are to be removed from their position. The body was not functioning, and those in the teaching profession as a whole were the ones who suffered as a result. A bad teacher could not be removed, and you can see that it does not take too long to understand the impact of that. The council is also a regulatory body. <BR /> <BR />The whole teaching profession suffered. The remarks of those who gave evidence to the Committee, which were encapsulated in what the Committee Chair said, were really concerning.”
“Indeed, as the evidence started to roll out in those evidence sessions, all the Committee members became increasingly concerned with the level of divergence of opinion that there seemed to be. On examining and hearing the evidence, the dysfunctionality of the council became very evident. <BR /> <BR />I thank the Minister for deciding to ask for accelerated passage for the Bill so that the body can be replaced. Particularly during the pandemic, we all appreciated the efforts that schoolteachers, principals and schools in general put into keeping our children safe and ensuring the continuation of their education. <BR /> <BR />The General Teaching Council is a professional body. First, it is a statutory body; we have to have a general teaching council, so the work that the Minister will do will replace a statutory body.”
“Like others in the Chamber, I pay tribute to Christopher Stalford on his sad passing, and I offer my sympathy to his wife and their four children. I thank the SDLP representatives who spoke with me on the way into the Chamber this morning. Their decision to postpone their party conference, which was to take place on Sunday, was greatly appreciated by DUP Members. Thank you for allowing me to say that, Mr Deputy Speaker. <BR /> <BR />I thank the Minister for introducing the Bill and requesting its accelerated passage. The Chair of the Committee concentrated on and captured the mind of the Committee as it started to take evidence on the General Teaching Council.”
“One photograph from the PSNI showed the inside of a bedroom that had been used for prostitution. On the architrave of the doorway and on the door itself were scratch marks, which indicated that the person, or perhaps, over time, persons, who had been in the bedroom was determined to, or was trying to, escape from the situation. <BR /> <BR />Mr Chairman, do you agree with me that, when the Bill achieves Royal Assent, we must ensure that those who are engaged in human trafficking are prosecuted and that their victims are not only protected for a short time but helped to return to what might be regarded as a normal life through the rehabilitation and support that we offer them as they move out of that trafficked situation? For that reason, we need to be assured that the Bill gets those aspects right.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. You talked about our support for victims. I spent a short time on the Policing Board, as I know you did, Mr Chairman. I was naive enough to think that human trafficking did not happen in Northern Ireland until it was described very graphically by the PSNI on a number of occasions.”
“It is a win in that the implementation of the legislation will be based on best practice in other jurisdictions, learning from experience elsewhere, and it is a win in that the amendment provides the opportunity to improve the legislation on the basis of what will be experienced and learned from its operation. <BR /> <BR />It is not often that something of such good value comes to the House. It is good value in that the explanatory and financial memorandum tells us that the Bill can be implemented with limited financial implications. This is a good day, as others have said. This is a good day for the Assembly, for parents and for the education of children who were born prematurely.”
“Seeing such a positive response, such initiative and the Minister and the Department responding in such a way speaks well for the future of the Bill and our children's education. <BR /> <BR />A multifaceted win has been created. It is a win for the child or the pupil, who will get the best possible start to their education. It is a win for the parents, because the Bill will provide the additional early years support and address the issue of supporting the child or pupil in their development. It is a win for the Minister and the Department, which responded so positively to parental concerns; indeed, they supported those concerns by introducing the legislation.”
“It has been a grassroots-driven initiative to which the Minister has responded. Indeed, it is worthy of mention that, of those who responded, 93% strongly agreed that there should be more flexibility in our education system for some children to defer school starting age; 90% strongly agreed or agreed that deferral should be available on parental request to any young child born between April and July; 75% strongly agreed or agreed that, in most cases, applications for deferral should be made at the usual time of applying for preschool; 75% strongly agreed or agreed that children who defer should receive one year of government-funded preschool in the same manner as other children in the year group; and 86% thought that deferral should also be available for premature children who are not young for year.”
“I am pleased that the Minister has recognised the need to increase the awareness, understanding and support across the education system for the particular needs of premature children and that the Department aims to ensure that all our children receive appropriate support during their early years — Mrs Dodds referred to that — and that children with additional needs or disabilities who are at greatest risk of poor longer-term outcomes receive additional support at the earliest opportunity. <BR /> <BR />The Minister indicated that she had had 755 responses to her consultation. The largest number was from parents. It was mentioned during a previous debate that the Bill has been driven from the grassroots — from parents and from organisations made up of parents and concerned about children.”
“I support the Bill and the amendment. I thank the Minister. During a previous debate, the Minister promised that she had taken note of some of the queries that were raised. I thank her for her prompt action in tabling the amendment on a review and for the her words, which provided a detailed outline of how the review will be carried out, the approach and the methodology that she will use and the need for it to be carried out by a senior member of her Department. All that is extremely welcome news. <BR /> <BR />Others have said it, but it is worth repeating that it is clear that children who are born prematurely need additional support and intervention in the education system.”
“Although the Bill provides parents and children with an option to defer education for 12 months, that will have no implication for the child's longer-term compulsory education: they will get the 12 years of compulsory education. That is made clear by the stipulation in the Bill that the full 12 years of education are compulsory and that deferred children who start their education at the later date will be required to complete the academic year after their 17th birthday, thereby preventing their removal from education midway through the examination courses. <BR /> <BR />There is a unity of purpose to the Bill. That unity of purpose can see us taking a step forward that has been lobbied for by parents over a number of years. As has been stated on the financial implications of the Bill, we can take that step forward at a very limited cost.”
“I am pleased that the Minister confirmed in her remarks that she not only is looking to this Bill but is willing to look forward. That is good. Others around the Chamber made the point that it is good that we do not see the Bill as being the end result and that the Minister will look forward. <BR /> <BR />The Bill provides children born between 1 April and 1 July and their parents with the option of beginning preschool education in the September following their fourth birthday, if the parents make the decision to defer their child's entry into education by 12 months. Accordingly, their child will then begin primary school in the September following their fifth birthday. That approach will allow parents to continue to receive a full year of government-funded preschool education. The child's early years education will continue.”
“The child's birthdate was of concern to her. I pay tribute to Belfast Mum in particular and to the professional charitable organisations that have lobbied me. <BR /> <BR />The Bill, which will hopefully pass in this mandate, will make a difference, and, in making a difference, is it not good that we can say that it should have very limited financial implications? It will make a big difference, but we will achieve that at a low cost. It will make a big difference to children and to parents. <BR /> <BR />The Bill provides the best of both worlds for children and parents. It provides the option that will allow parents, as my colleagues Mrs Dodds and Mr Harvey said, to make decisions about the age at which they would like their child to undertake education.”
“As Members have referred to, deferring the school starting age has a history of being sought. Reference was made to 2014, and there was the three-year period during which matters could not be progressed. There was a bit of a hiatus then. In his remarks, the Chair paid tribute, quite rightly, to the many organisations that have lobbied on the matter and raised the question, time and time again, in a very professional manner. <BR /> <BR />I pay tribute to one of those lobbyists in particular, who operates under the Twitter name of Belfast Mum. I was lobbied by Belfast Mum. She came to my office, and I can only describe her attitude as heartfelt. Hers was a heartfelt approach on behalf of her child, but, in doing so, Belfast Mum recognised that it was not only her child who was negatively impacted on because of the date of his birthday.”
“She has done so a short time after taking up her post. As other Members have said, I welcome the fact that we got agreement on the Bill's accelerated passage. That was very much the Committee's attitude, with all members appreciating the need for it.”
“Thank you very much, Mr Deputy Speaker. I did not think that I would be called immediately after my party colleague, but I will speak now nonetheless. <BR /> <BR />As other Members have done, I welcome the Bill and thank the Minister for bringing it to the House.”
“I thank the Minister for that. I agree with him that there needs be a joined-up strategy between Infrastructure and his Department in particular. I assume that the Minister will be pleased about and supportive of the investment in the new sewerage works at Sydenham, which may indeed make a contribution towards solving the problem.”
“I thank the Minister for that very detailed answer. Minister, you will know that one in 24 people in Belfast dies from a respiratory problem, perhaps in association with other issues. The monitoring points are not positioned in the areas that are perhaps most hit by environmental issues — that is, the inner-city part of the area. Statistics show that, if you live in the inner-city area, you are liable to die seven years earlier than if you live in the outer part. Will the Minister give consideration to monitoring the air quality in the inner part of the city rather than its outer aspects?”
“I thank the Minister for her answer. Two weeks ago, the Youth Justice Agency came before the Justice Committee to give oral evidence, and, last week, the Probation Board did so. Both organisations expressed concerns about the draft Budget, indicating that it might indeed mean staff reductions in both cases. What would be the implications for the Prison Service if the Finance Minister were, if I may use this topical phrase, "to rigorously implement" his draft Budget?”
“I thank the Minister for his answer. Minister, you have at your disposal the public spending directorate (PSD), which is there to offer you advice on maximising the resources that are available to Northern Ireland, advising on their allocation and ensuring the effective use of available resources through allocation, monitoring and public expenditure. Given the level of expertise and support that is there, is it not amazing that we are sending money back to the Exchequer?”
“I thank the Member for giving way. Does the Member recall that, when advice was given to the Committee on these regulations, they were categorised and referred to as Henry VIII regulations? Will the Member comment on the amendments and how they fit in with Henry VIII regulations?”
“It is, essentially, about those parents and children in schools that need to ensure that they are not less well off and that others are not getting more privileges than they are. All privileges and support are to be afforded to all sectors. Mr Weir spoke eloquently on that issue at an earlier stage. The ethos that we are adopting in the Chamber is not one that can be sustained in constituencies across Northern Ireland.”
“I thank the Member for her intervention. I previously used the word "befuddled" — I do not even know if that is a word — but it is how I felt in my mind. However, if the Bill sponsor joins me when children cannot get into a school of their choice in either the controlled or maintained sector after we have put legislation in place, that is not going to be a great deal of comfort for the parents of those children. It is not going to be a great deal of comfort that you will join me in the campaign to get the child into that school. I used the word "befuddled" before, and I do not know if there is such a word, but it is how I felt in my mind about other interventions that the Member has made. <BR /> <BR />The Member interrupted me just as I was about to finish.”
“What about the parents of children in those schools? Are they content that the parties here will support those privileges? Mr Allister was so concise in the debates on the previous groups that he earned the attention of the Chamber as he was speaking. What about the parents of children in maintained and controlled schools who feel that they are being left behind and not supported?”
“I believe that it is funded to do that. The figure quoted earlier in the Chamber to deliver such strategies and support was around £700,000. How will the teachers, principals and board of governors from the controlled and maintained sectors who made presentations to the Committee and engaged with the Bill sponsor and other MLAs feel when they realise that they are now third-class citizens, with none of those duties applying to their schools?”
“In the recent history of the Committee and the Department, little was achieved for a long time on area planning for children with special needs. While there has been some movement, clause 7 still presents some difficulties. <BR /> <BR />Clause 8 demands more resources, more personnel, further funding commitments, action plans and targets for only one sector. At the moment, only the Irish-medium sector is supported in legislation, through the Education (Northern Ireland) Order 1998. The strategy in the clause would elevate integrated education above even Irish-medium education, whilst leaving the controlled and maintained sectors at the bottom of the pile, even after minor amendments have been made. <BR /> <BR />Mr Harvey referred to the strategic planning for integrated education that NICIE ought to be doing.”
“Initially, when the Bill was presented, every new school was presumed to be an integrated school. That is one clause that the sponsor has now changed, and it is a small step in the right direction. Even so, when a new school is being considered or proposed, clause 7 still requires every education body in Northern Ireland to consult at every stage in the process. We all know the issues around area planning. It is always a difficult and controversial issue, and area plans are always defended or attacked by MLAs from different constituencies depending on their priorities. Indeed, the area-planning process will still place duties on the Department that will undoubtedly slow down the process, and I do not think that any of us wants to see that. We need to have an effective area-planning process.”
“I was not expecting that, Mr Deputy Speaker. <BR /> <BR />This has been an interesting session, with perhaps more movement happening than in other sessions. Perhaps a degree of reality is starting to enter Members' thinking. I do not want to interrupt those seemingly positive steps as we go forward. <BR /> <BR />The group 3 amendments cover strategy, implementation and reporting. I intend to support the Minister's new clause 5A in amendment No 23, the Minister's amendment No 33 and the Minister's proposed new clause 7A in amendment No 29. <BR /> <BR />I have not agreed with very much that the Chair of the Committee has said over the past 24 hours, but I agree with him that a huge amount of concern about clauses 7 and 8 was expressed in Committee at meetings in both closed and open session.”
“— with so little opposition. I am actually finished.”
“The point is this: through the two clauses that we are particularly concerned about because of their attempt to promote one sector above the other sectors, we would be doing the opposite — the complete opposite — of what we as an Assembly should be doing. We want all our children to be educated together. We want all our children to be treated fairly. We want the division of the Education budget among our schools to be equitable, regardless of what sector they are in. We want that to happen. The steps that we are taking today would take us in the opposite direction. Given all the concerns that have been presented, I fail to see why the Bill continues to go forward —”
“Those are folk with a point to make. <BR /> <BR />I will finish with evidence from the Church of Ireland representatives. No, I will not actually; I will hold that for a later time, Mr Speaker.”
“If the Bill is passed in its current form, controlled schools — and 44% of schools that employ integrated policies are controlled — will be disadvantaged. That information is readily available to the Bill sponsor. <BR /> <BR />The Controlled Schools' Support Council's (CSSC) evidence to the Committee is also readily available to all who want to see it. The Controlled Schools' Support Council stated in writing:”
“That evidence is quite easily available. <BR /> <BR />I will finish on this — or maybe not, as I might have another couple of wee bits to add very quickly. On meeting demand, in response to the private Member's Integrated Education Bill, the Education Authority stated:”
“Shared education is not a sector; those are my words, not the Department's. The Department said:”
“I thank the Member for his intervention and the points that he has made. <BR /> <BR />I return to the word "promote". Another piece of information, which is readily available to those who want to look for it, is evidence that the Department of Education gave to the Committee. On the promotion of integrated education, the Department stated:”
“Therefore, the success of first preference applications for integrated primary and post-primary schools in 2021 was fairly comparable with that of all other schools.”
“Let me finish this point and then I will give way to the Member. It may add something to what he is going to say. <BR /> <BR />Another paragraph says that the Department of Education informed RaISe of the fact that, last year:”
“One piece of information that is publicly available is a paper that was provided by the Assembly's Research and Information Service. The Assembly is fortunate to have that research service because its talents, dedication and so on are exceptional. It made a point about the demand for integrated education, and, with your indulgence, Mr Deputy Speaker, I will read three short areas from that paper that should be noted:”
“You are, of course, correct, Mr Deputy Speaker. Mr Lyttle makes a valid point that some aspects of the evidence that was gathered when the Committee was in private session or some advice would not be circulated widely. However, in general, the Committee meetings are held in public and there is a record of the meetings. <BR /> <BR />Let me see whether I can be helpful to the sponsor of the Bill. Where this part of the Bill and advice, guidance and support are concerned, an extensive amount of information was given in public. I will quickly refer to some aspects of that extensive amount of information. Much has been made of the fact that children do not get into their first choice of school and that demand for integrated education is far above that for the other sectors of education.”
“— the Education Committee meetings on her behalf, or that there would have been communication between her and the Chair as they are members of the same party. One would have thought that she would have been kept up to speed on the issue.”
“I am even more befuddled. There is a communications issue in all of this, but we will raise a few points first. <BR /> <BR />Kellie's — sorry, Ms Armstrong's — amendment to change the word "increase" to "meet" in clause 5 will not mitigate the serious implications that have been discussed; they will all still apply. The duty that the clause imposes on the Department of Education will be significant and will not be enjoyed by the controlled, maintained or, indeed, Irish language sectors. <BR /> <BR />Ms Armstrong said that she was not privy to the information received by, or discussions that took place in, the Education Committee. Considering the importance of the Bill to Ms Armstrong, and the work that her researcher has done for her, I would have thought that it was likely that someone would have been watching —”
“I am aghast; I am absolutely aghast at that. What were we saying until 9.00 pm last night? What have we been saying today, and what will be said today, at least from this side of the Chamber, about the errors in the Bill? What about the advice that was offered? What about the people who came to give evidence and their dissatisfaction with the Bill and the approach? We will talk about that, as the Member is shaking her head; she is not sure about that. We will talk about that.”