Robin Newton
East Belfast · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“I thank the Member for giving way. The Member is aware that the Education Committee took on the very early role, as he requested. Mrs Dodds made the point that the Bill does not have a natural home, and that many suspect that its required budget will be much greater than that outlined in the Bill.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. She is absolutely right about how despicable a crime human trafficking is and about the attempt, via the Bill, to address it.”
“That is not the type of language that we expect to see from such respected bodies. Their overall concern is the education of our children. They represent schools, and they say that the Bill is "flawed" and "not fit for purpose", but it looks as though we will vote it through. <BR /> <BR />I move now to the history of the Bill.”
“Thank you. There seems to be a similar attitude to this legislation. We, on this side of the Chamber, and indeed others, have consistently argued that a private Member's Bill is not suitable for this type of legislation. The ramifications of the Bill are significant.”
“Again, it has been referred to that the chief executives of the Council for Catholic Maintained Schools; the Controlled Schools' Support Council; the Governing Bodies Association, which is the body covering voluntary grammar schools; the Catholic Schools' Trustee Service; the Transferor Representatives' Council, which represents the Presb…”
“As we have done at every stage, we oppose the Bill. Mr McCrossan is not in the Chamber at the moment, but I am not unlike him in the sense that I believe in all our children being educated together.”
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“I welcome the Minister coming to the House on this matter. It is a piece of work that is long overdue. It is in line with the most recent report on underachievement, and a piece of good, solid work will be done when the two are merged. <BR /> <BR />Does the Minister agree with me that, despite the previous questioner's comments, the composition of the panel and the fact that some of them come from other parts of the United Kingdom will bring fresh and outside-the-box thinking that will be of benefit to the educational system in Northern Ireland?”
“I thank the Minister for his answer so far. Minister, 45 apprentices out of, as I understand it, a workforce of some 23,000 seems to be a very small number. What qualifications are necessary to gain a place? Will the Minister be mindful of giving consideration to youngsters who have, in effect, been underachieving at school and perhaps find a route into the Civil Service, under this scheme, for those youngsters?”
“Minister, we are all concerned about the safety of pupils, teachers and, indeed, the general staff in schools. Can you be specific about the impact that contact tracing has had on pupil attendance since the start of this term?”
“I welcome the scheme. I have been with a number of small independent retailers who have welcomed it. It has been seen as good news by our retail and hospitality sectors in general. They have a positive approach to the scheme. There is no doubt that it will be a boost to the economy. Will you, Minister, explain why this is the optimum time to launch the scheme, rather than doing so on any other date?”
“I will finish by saying that, if CO2 monitoring is agreed, the Finance Minister needs to step up to the plate on the cost.”
“I have already given way. Sorry: I will give way.”
“I am sure that the Ulster Unionists, when they come to speak, will support the Health Minister, his responsibility for the PHA and the close relationship that Minister McIlveen has with him and the PHA on those matters. <BR /> <BR />The mover of the motion made much about CO2 monitoring. I am not technical: I do not know about CO2 monitoring but understand the principle of what it is supposed to do.”
“I will not give way. Thanks. I have already given way. <BR /> <BR />It is really about Sinn Féin looking for sound bites. Questions do, however, need to be asked. Is Minister McIlveen going on a solo run with her actions? Is she not consulting her ministerial colleagues? Is she being irresponsible? The answer to those questions is, emphatically, no. As Mr Buckley said, the Minister took the strategy to the Executive on 12 August. It was discussed around the Executive table. It was discussed by Sinn Féin, the SDLP and Alliance. Did they raise any objections? No. All the Ministers — the Executive — signed off on the guidelines that were issued.”
“Is that not what the debate is really about? It is only an attack on the DUP Minister.”
“I am not the only Member in the Chamber who engages with schools. <BR /> <BR />The benefits of pupils' education is immense. Their physical well-being is improved. We all share the concerns about young people's mental health and well-being during the pandemic. Minister McIlveen, who is a former teacher and an experienced professional, takes her responsibilities seriously. In the past week, the Minister has met 10 school principals face to face, talked to front-line staff, listened to their concerns and experiences, and taken positive action rather than just moaning on social media. <BR /> <BR />I want to refer to those few words in the motion that make it impossible to support:”
“The Education Minister's priority is to make school a safe place for all children and school staff. Keeping children in the classroom, with face-to-face teaching and interaction with their teachers and peers, is key to their future academic success.”
“Regretfully, I have to oppose the motion. Again, I recognise that we are in a difficult COVID-19 situation as far as our children and our pupils are concerned. Obviously, there is concern across the teaching professions, among parents and, indeed, in the wider community about the virus spread. We all recognise that. We in the DUP have been saying from the very beginning of the pandemic that the education of our children and young people is a major concern for all of us. The protection of children, teaching staff and support staff is of paramount importance. We also need to be mindful of the need to protect vulnerable adults who come into contact with pupils and of possible contact transmission.”
“Gail Walker nailed it. Sir Jeffrey Donaldson has reiterated that the best way to help Northern Ireland to move further along the road to reconciliation is not to sacrifice justice; it is to apply and uphold the rule of law fairly and equally. Relatives of innocent victims deserve to hear the information that is held by many people across this land.”
“<BR /> <BR />On this very sensitive matter, let me quote 'Belfast Telegraph' journalist Gail Walker, who, in an excellent article last weekend, wrote:”
“That is Sinn Féin's attitude to the words "truth", "justice" and "accountability". Those words mean whatever it wants them to mean. It has nothing to do with serving the interests, wishes or needs of innocent victims and survivors; they mean what Sinn Féin wants them to mean. <BR /> <BR />DUP leader Sir Jeffrey Donaldson said that perpetrators should never be able to sleep easy in their bed. The DUP finds the Government's suggestion of a statute of limitations — a de facto amnesty that benefits the terrorists — totally absurd. Anyone who breaks the law should face the threat of prosecution and conviction for their crimes. That should be the principle that everyone unites under: the law should apply equally and be applied without fear or favour.”
“I agree with the Member. The relatives of innocent victims deserve that information. I remind the House that the Provos targeted innocent people because they were Protestants, unionists and loyal to the crown. They also murdered innocent Catholics. The relatives of innocent victims deserve that information. <BR /> <BR />Has Sinn Féin moved? Has it embraced truth, justice and accountability? The answer is, emphatically, no. Those words, when used by Sinn Féin, are in the same vein as Lewis Carroll's character Humpty Dumpty in his children's book 'Through the Looking-Glass'. Replying to Alice, Humpty Dumpty said:”
“The relatives deserve justice, as do the relatives of every police officer and soldier who stood between us and the terrorists. <BR /> <BR />I suspect I am not the only person who is absolutely astonished to read the words "truth", "justice" and "accountability" in the motion and see that Sinn Féin Members are signatories to it. Sinn Féin Members know all about the activities of the Provisional IRA but refuse to provide any information on their atrocities, information that, for many innocent victims, would help to bring closure.”
“This is a serious debate. It is an important debate. It is a debate in support of innocent victims and relatives. Mr Storey referred to the incident on 19 July 30 years ago when Mr Tom Oliver was abducted by the Provisional IRA. He was tortured and murdered on this date 30 years ago. The family now report fresh hope and believe that the net is closing in on his killers. They deserve support. On this date in 1992, an IRA bomb exploded in London, murdering four members of the Queen's Life Guard. Twelve soldiers and six civilians were injured and seven horses killed. Their relatives deserve support. Tomorrow is the fiftieth anniversary of Bloody Friday, when PIRA planted 20 bombs in Belfast and murdered nine innocent people, injured 130 and terrified thousands.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. The Member said that she met the relevant bodies that I quoted earlier. How is it that Mr Gerry Campbell, chief executive of the Council for Catholic Maintained Schools, and Mr Mark Baker, chief executive of the Controlled Schools Support Council, indicate that they have not had sight of the Bill and that the Bill gives them serious concerns?”
“The Member makes some valuable points. Is it not also going to the heights of hypocrisy for a party to sign up to 'New Decade, New Approach', the document that is supposed to be taking the Assembly forward, specifically to the establishment of an external, independent review of education provision, and, before the members of the panel are even appointed, to introduce another initiative to undermine 'New Decade, New Approach'?”
“including an additional new team in the Department of Education. <BR /> <BR />Those are concerns that I and, I believe, my colleagues on these Benches have. If we were to support the Bill, the education bodies would have genuine concerns that Ms Armstrong and her Bill, according to my interpretation of it, would not be able to assuage. There are many areas of excellence in the current education system, but our aim must be to ensure that opportunities and educational outcomes improve across every school in every sector in every part of Northern Ireland. We should always strive for better results for all our pupils and learners.”
“In many ways, our principals and teachers already do that. It is concerning that we would think that they were not doing that in our education system and that we had to legislate for them to do so. Another policy objective is to:”
“Furthermore, as we go through an area-based planning exercise, another policy objective is:”
“That is shared education. <BR /> <BR />As I said at the beginning, I want all our children to be educated together in the future in whatever form that might take. One hundred years ago, at the formation of Northern Ireland, our forefathers wanted to have a single education system, and, for its own reasons, another sector wanted to have an education system based on the Catholic faith. I imagine that the Catholic ethos was the big issue. That was agreed to and supported, by stages, as we have gone along. <BR /> <BR />As I said at the beginning, I think that Ms Armstrong is sincere in the Bill that she has produced. She is sincerely wrong, but she is sincere. She is an advocate of integrated education. She read out the nine objectives of the Bill. I refer to three, about which there are, I think, concerns. One is:”
“That supports a way forward that the Assembly has already embarked on, and the impetus is already there and is driving us forward. <BR /> <BR />The Institute for Conflict Research, supported by the Belfast Interface Project and the Integrated Education Fund, published 'Identifying Potential for Shared Education in Interface Areas'. I will read a small piece:”
“The Integrated Education Fund indicated that it was pleased to see that 'New Decade, New Approach' (NDNA) pledged an independent review of our education system, which it had called for and for which research shows overwhelming support. Even the Integrated Education Fund, as a way forward, supports 'New Decade, New Approach' and a review of the education system. <BR /> <BR />There are other publications. Danielle Blaylock and Joanne Elizabeth Hughes of Queen's University Belfast have published a paper, 'Shared Education Initiatives in Northern Ireland: A Model for Effective Intergroup Contact in Divided Jurisdictions'. I refer only to a small part of what is, in my opinion, a good study of ethnicity and nationalism. Towards the end of the document, they say:”
“It is produced by the Integrated Education Fund (IEF). It refers to 'New Decade, New Approach', and the headline on its website reads:”
“It is difficult to pick up your thread, but I will do my best as I make a few more points. <BR /> <BR />Before we finished for Question Time, I referred to Mr Gerry Campbell, chief executive of the Council for Catholic Maintained Schools (CCMS), and to a number of his concerns; indeed, he has major concerns about the Bill and its implications for his sector of the education system. I am absolutely certain — I said this before Question Time — that the Member, in proposing the Bill, has been discourteous to the education sectors in not consulting them. It is somewhat concerning that they have had to contact the Member to ask for a debate or a discussion on the issue. <BR /> <BR />There are other areas, and we have talked about the initiatives that are already under way through the Assembly. I refer to another document.”
“This is the second time that, in the middle of speaking, I have suddenly been cut short because of Question Time.”
“Those are the concerns of two bodies that represent our children's education.”
“I thank the Member. That point is extremely concerning. In much the same way as Mr Weir did, she reached the point just before I did. That point was made by Mr Gerry Campbell. This is what he said:”
“The Member is one step ahead of me. CCMS made the point:”
“— he is anticipating what I am anticipating —”
“It is somewhat rich that the Member says that she is prepared to meet with those bodies at this stage, after they have contacted her and after she has brought the Bill to this stage. <BR /> <BR />Anyway, Mr Gerry Campbell said:”
“On three occasions, the Member was asked to give way — by Mr Storey, Mrs Dodds and Mr Allister — as she made her remarks on her Bill. She refused to give way, and yet she is asking me to give way —”
“I would have thought that anybody who wanted to produce a serious piece of legislation would have said, "Who do I need to consult? Who are the vested interests? Who are the interested bodies? Who are the bodies that are delivering on the ground?". Certainly, Mr Mark Baker should have been consulted. <BR /> <BR />On the other side of the cake, we have the Council for Catholic Maintained Schools (CCMS). Mr Gerry Campbell, chief executive of CCMS, indicated that he had not been consulted. Therefore, we have what might be regarded as the state schools and the Catholic maintained sector not being consulted. He makes a number of —”
“That begs this question: why did the proposer, who has been working on the Bill since 2016-17, not have the courtesy to speak to Mr Mark Baker, as chief executive? He went on to make a number of other points. He confirmed:”
“It is complimentary to me, as a member of the Education Committee, that the Bill's proposer wrote to the Committee, and we confirmed that no other similar legislation was going through. However, in doing her consultation since 2016-17, the Member has not discussed the Bill with the bodies that represent the education sectors. Mr Mark Baker, chief executive of the Controlled Schools’ Support Council (CSSC), said:”
“The Bill's Explanatory and Financial Memorandum indicates that the proposer has been working on this initiative since 2016-17. It states that she has had:”
“The Minister may comment on this, but my understanding is that we are close to appointing the panel that will drive that initiative forward. If this Bill were to proceed, we would be standing on the toes of the 'New Decade, New Approach' document.”
“Not too long ago, every party in the Chamber signed up to 'New Decade, New Approach'. That document deals with educational performance and states:”
“She is an ardent advocate for it. However, it was demonstrated in her presentation, to some extent, that the Bill is dictatorial. I will come back to that, Mr Deputy Speaker. I believe that she is sincere, but I believe that she is sincerely wrong in pushing this legislation, certainly at this time. <BR /> <BR />I wanted, and I know that many Members want, to see our children being educated together. As far back as when Peter Robinson produced his document on shared education and educating our children together, he said:”
“My children had an extremely rounded education, certainly in respect of those whom they engaged with throughout their school years, to the extent that many of the pupils with whom they were friends at that stage remain friends. <BR /> <BR />It would be remiss of us not to acknowledge that principals and teachers in the main sectors of education handle those situations well. My office is located in an inner-city area, and I see children, particularly newcomer children, engaging and being educated together. <BR /> <BR />Kellie Armstrong is passionate about integrated education, and, when we were talking about her Bill previously, she indicated that she had made sure that her children were educated in the integrated sector. She is passionate about integrated education, to the extent that she is zealous about it.”
“I will start from where I am coming from on integrated education. When my children were about to embark on their educational journey, it was my wife and my contention that we wanted to ensure that our children would mix with children from all backgrounds. Many others in the Chamber have taken a similar approach. We chose the schools with a degree of care, at primary and secondary level. They did not enter the integrated education movement. That is not to, in any way, take away from anyone who has decided on that approach. My children met with people from all religious backgrounds, and no religious backgrounds. Each of the schools, from their boards of governors to their principals and teachers, were extremely supportive of how the educational process was handled.”
“I thank the Minister for her statement. She made a brief reference to cooperation between the inspectorates. Obviously, that is an important area of work. Will the Minister expand or elaborate on what that area of work has entailed?”
“The Minister has expressed her concerns about the running of the PIP appeals and has indicated that she has no confidence in that system, which is, obviously, run by Capita; indeed, around 64% of people who receive a negative decision from Capita make an appeal against that decision. She has, nevertheless, expressed her confidence in the victims' payment scheme. Can she outline the appeals mechanism where a negative decision is made?”
“I thank the Minister for her answer. However, that is not what has been stated in written answers to me. This matter has gone on for at least 10 years. Over that time, minimal response maintenance has taken place on those homes. What does the Minister intend to do about compensation, legal fees, alternative accommodation and getting the folk who are living in dreadful conditions into more suitable accommodation?”
“I congratulate Mr Paul Frew on taking up the post of Economy Minister. It is a difficult and challenging time to enter that position. Like others, I pay tribute to Diane Dodds for all the work that she has done since we came back from our prolonged recess. <BR /> <BR />A man who has been key to the success of the airport is Mr Brian Ambrose, who, I understand, is due to retire at the end of the month. Will the Minister follow up the matter with Mr Ambrose, who has steered the success of the airport over the past number of years? Specifically, the Minister referred several times to the aviation kick-start scheme as being part of the solution. Will he give the House greater detail on that scheme?”
“The first is supporting children and families who face the most difficult challenges of special educational needs. We need to support them, and we need to provide additional facilities and up-to-date, high-tech school premises. It has been agreed by both sides of the House that those young people need that investment to address underachievement and to provide them with the good start in life that will allow us to benefit from their expertise in later life.”
“There are opportunities for resources to be implemented more effectively than at present and in a way that requires more collaboration between Departments. <BR /> <BR />I will finish by saying that Dr Purdy outlines the budget that is required. He lays out all of the 47 actions that are required and says that, in the long term — five plus years — £73 million is required. If we do not invest that additional relatively small amount in those areas today, as recommended by the expert panel, we may as well not invest in them. If the budget for those areas is not invested over the time span that Dr Purdy estimates necessary, we may as well not invest in them in a one-year Budget. <BR /> <BR />Two areas brought the Education Committee together.”