Robin Newton
East Belfast · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“I thank the Member for giving way. The Member is aware that the Education Committee took on the very early role, as he requested. Mrs Dodds made the point that the Bill does not have a natural home, and that many suspect that its required budget will be much greater than that outlined in the Bill.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. She is absolutely right about how despicable a crime human trafficking is and about the attempt, via the Bill, to address it.”
“That is not the type of language that we expect to see from such respected bodies. Their overall concern is the education of our children. They represent schools, and they say that the Bill is "flawed" and "not fit for purpose", but it looks as though we will vote it through. <BR /> <BR />I move now to the history of the Bill.”
“Thank you. There seems to be a similar attitude to this legislation. We, on this side of the Chamber, and indeed others, have consistently argued that a private Member's Bill is not suitable for this type of legislation. The ramifications of the Bill are significant.”
“Again, it has been referred to that the chief executives of the Council for Catholic Maintained Schools; the Controlled Schools' Support Council; the Governing Bodies Association, which is the body covering voluntary grammar schools; the Catholic Schools' Trustee Service; the Transferor Representatives' Council, which represents the Presb…”
“As we have done at every stage, we oppose the Bill. Mr McCrossan is not in the Chamber at the moment, but I am not unlike him in the sense that I believe in all our children being educated together.”
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“I pay tribute to the Minister for seeking the professional advice of OLC. I understand that she had some difficulty in getting support for doing so from the Executive. I welcome that, by agreeing to let OLC do its work, the Executive recognised that there were problems with the Bill that needed to be put right, or put as right as best as possible. However, I do not believe that we will end up with a good Bill, even with the professional amendments that the Minister has tabled. This is a bad Bill. It will be made slightly better by the OLC's advice and support, but it will not be a good Bill. <BR /> <BR />On clause 5 —”
“We know that, within three years, the Education budget will have a shortfall of about £300 million. We know that already. The proper process would have been to allow the independent review to do its work and then comment on it: if Ms Armstrong had not been satisfied with the review, she could have commented on it at that stage.”
“The Member has raised a point and built on an argument that was made yesterday, which is that the Bill would impose additional financial burdens.”
“Ms Armstrong's amendment to change the word "promote" to "support" does not in any way mitigate that. It still places a legal duty to lift, in both policy and financial maintenance, integrated education above all other sectors. That would be to the detriment of the other sectors and is therefore clearly inequitable. <BR /> <BR />Yesterday, when Mr Allister asked the Bill sponsor, Ms Armstrong, whether any other sector would enjoy such privilege as the Bill would provide to integrated education, I was struck by her response. She shrugged her shoulders, indicating, I think, either, "I do not know", or maybe even, "I do not care". Only the Bill sponsor can tell us what the shrug of her shoulders in response to that question actually meant.”
“In many ways, the amendments to clause 4 are intended to appease those of us who have difficulty with the word "promote" by changing it to "support". As Mr Stalford has pointed out, however, the dictionary definition means that the change of wording does absolutely nothing to change the meaning of clause 4. The clause elevates integrated education above all other education sectors in Northern Ireland. The word "support" does not mitigate that problem in any way. It still means that other sectors would come a poor second when it comes to policy setting and funding to meet demand. If the Department were to invest in the promotion of integrated education, as required by the Bill, it is likely that that would be at the expense of other sectors.”
“Mr Allister's amendment No 58 to clause 11, page 6, line 8 is:”
“Amendment No 12 to clause 3, page 2, line 10 is:”
“I support the Minister's amendment Nos 10 and 12 and amendment No 58 in the name of Mr Jim Allister. I stand in opposition to clauses 4 and 5, as detailed by the Minister. Amendment No 10 to clause 3, page 2, line 9 is:”
“Does the Member accept that, no matter how clever or skilled the draftsperson is, they take instructions from the Bill sponsor?”
“It seems to me that we are creating a situation in which other bodies representing our education sectors are likely to request judicial reviews. That has been mentioned to the Committee. That is the situation that we will be creating for ourselves if we pass this Bill in its present format, and even with the amendments that the Bill sponsor and others are proposing.”
“I do not believe that to be the case. <BR /> <BR />The legal advice also states:”
“Another point made in the legal advice was:”
“I thank the Member for her intervention. She has mentioned the independent review of education. The independent review of education, which was announced by Minister Weir, is the way to review our entire education system in Northern Ireland. I am pretty certain that, on a number of occasions, the Member has not been shy in telling us that it was her party, the Alliance Party, that put the review of education into New Decade, New Approach. Now, the Member seemingly cannot wait for an impartial report and, instead, wishes to bring inequity, as I perceive it, into our education system through what has been described as potentially bad law. <BR /> <BR />The Education Committee took legal advice, which came to us on 16 November. I will quote a couple of remarks from that legal advice:”
“This type of legislation is more the remit of the education body, with all its drafting resources, knowledge, experience and legal advice. It is uncommon to deal with an issue as complex as education reform through a private Member's Bill.”
“<BR /> <BR />I have now lost my place in my speech. I have made the point that this is a private Member's Bill and will not deliver integrated education, as I perceive it. I am not making any points about the integrated education sector per se: it does a good job. The integrated sector does a job that has been allocated to it, and it promotes that sector as it feels it is appropriate to do. <BR /> <BR />I do not see that accepting or amending clause 1 would do anything other than give credibility to the other clauses and lead to judicial review. As has been confirmed by those who gave evidence, we are in danger of having an integrated education Act that will lead to a judicial review. The private Member's Bill is not a suitable way to achieve the objectives of the Bill's proposer.”
“I thank the Member for his intervention. I suggest that the Member goes and has a chat with the principals of our schools about how they feel about the work that they are doing. However, the Member makes a point. <BR /> <BR />I was not going to say this, but I spent a short time in OFMDFM, as it was then, and I was pleased with the work that we did on shared education. I was an advocate of shared education and how it was rolled out, and I am pleased to say that the Strule campus is coming to fruition now. Mr Sheehan mentioned that a number of schools are coming together now in a very positive way to enjoy the one campus and to enter into and enhance shared education. We are spending millions of pounds to enhance that campus for shared education. I am proud of the work that I did in OFMDFM back then.”
“<BR /> <BR />If we were to invent an education system, we would certainly not invent the system that we have now, but we are where we are with the different sectors and bodies that represent the sectors of education, and they are doing their jobs. To some extent, those who have been playing a role in the controlled or maintained sector could rightly look at the Bill and say, "Is no one taking account of the valuable work that we have been doing on the ground? Has no one been looking at the diversity in our schools, because only one area of integrated education was measured?".”
“I speak as a parent, and my wife and I ensured that our children attended a school that was truly integrated, and had a very long history of integration, in order to make sure that they had the opportunity to enrich their understanding of life, cultures and religions in general. I believe that that has enriched their quality of life overall. <BR /> <BR />My party colleague Mrs Dodds indicated her history of attending a school that was naturally integrated, and her children followed suit. We all want to achieve integrated education so that all our children can be integrated with and sit beside people from different cultures and backgrounds. I believe that that enriches them. However, this is a private Member's Bill. It will not deliver integrated education. It will not deliver a level playing field for all sectors of education.”
“In the wider context, it is perhaps thought that if you are speaking in opposition to the Bill, you are intent on promoting educational apartheid, when nothing could be further from the truth.”
“I support, among the amendments in group 1 on definition and purpose, the Minister's amendments, Nos 5, 24, 61, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, and oppose the other amendments. <BR /> <BR />Integrated education can be an emotive subject in Northern Ireland. When you are concerned about the issue, and stand in the Assembly to express those concerns, you will judged. I was going to use the words "rightly judged", but, sometimes, that is not the case. You would be judged by the opposition parties and the public, no more so than when the subject that you are speaking on is the education of our children and young people, and especially when you are talking about educating all our children together in an integrated education system.”
“It is that type of support that will keep pupils safe.”
“— and that an additional 5,000 will become available.”
“I am sure that the Minister will spend wisely any money allocated by the Finance Minister. The pan-nationalist front that signed the motion — Sinn Féin, the SDLP and Alliance — is the coordinated group that, rather than wanting to work with the Minister during the pandemic, has sought to criticise, for political advantage, Minister McIlveen and former Minister Weir. A health crisis deserves a better response. Our parents, principals and pupils deserve practical and ongoing support. <BR /> <BR />I note that 95% of our schools have received CO2 monitors —”
“The Sinn Féin Minister proposes to cut the Education budget, while the entire Sinn Féin Assembly group calls for the Education Minister to spend a massive amount of additional capital that she does not have. <BR /> <BR />What political dishonesty, duplicity and insincerity this is. Dr Paisley might have called it "crocodile tears".”
“The hypocrisy of Sinn Féin's position became apparent in Mr Sheehan's car-crash interview last week on 'Good Morning Ulster'. The Sinn Féin Finance Minister has proposed a 2% cut to the Education budget for 2022-25, which the DUP opposes. It would mean an £84 million shortfall in the Education baseline. While Education would receive additional resource funding, that falls well short of the money that the Department needs to continue programmes such as Engage and others that have been very much welcomed by principals. In short, it means that, over the three-year planning period, the Department of Education would face, in year 1, a gap of £195 million, in year 2, a gap of £250 million and, in year 3, a gap of £300 million.”
“Thank you, Mr Speaker. Others will take up that point. <BR /> <BR />Those who are expert in the field, including the Chief Medical Officer (CMO), indicated to schools prior to Christmas that they should not axe carol services or gathering together. He does not share the concern seemingly outlined by Mr Sheehan. Last week, Professor Young attended the Health Committee and indicated that children will get infected but it is likely to be mild infection, and we have to live with the virus. <BR /> <BR />Sir Jeffrey Donaldson, commenting on the motion for today's recall, said that parents and teachers deserve better than political posturing such as recalling the Assembly for little more than a political stunt. I agree with him.”
“They do not need negative motion after negative motion. They deserve support from the politicians similar to that offered to the Health Minister. By and large, the Health Minister enjoys the support of the Chamber — collective and cross-party support. He does not receive negative motion after negative motion, or cynical motion after cynical motion, as are used to attack the Education Minister, whether this Minister or the previous one, Mr Peter Weir.”
“I hope that I get that additional 15 seconds, Mr Speaker. <BR /> <BR />Like every Member in the Chamber, I have been contacted by parents who have concerns about their children in school and want to ensure that they are safe. Why would that not be the case? We are in a pandemic. Parents want to know that their children can go to school, schools will be open for them and children will receive face-to-face classroom teaching and be able to mix with their peers. Parents want those things because of their concern for their children's education and physical and mental health. Schools and parents deserve the support of everyone, and every party, across the Chamber. <BR /> <BR />School principals want to ensure that pupils and staff are safe, and they need support from the EA and DE and effective communication and support from politicians.”
“I oppose the motion. <BR /> <BR />I thank every school principal and every member of teaching staff and school support staff for all their dedicated work on behalf of our children and society. Like everyone else in the Chamber —”
“Will you outline the type of support that the Department has had to provide to GTCNI in past years?”
“I thank the Minister for her statement and for taking decisive action. Minister, you said that:”
“Is there scope within the programme so that, rather than being confined to the young people who participate, it could involve the wider family in that training?”
“I agree with the Minister and his words. It is a fast-paced and changing environment. <BR /> <BR />Minister, one of the objectives of the programme is:”
“The question that has been asked is a serious one, and it requires wide consultation. What consultation have the Minister or her departmental officials had with the Churches on the matter?”
“The Minister mentioned having a strategic approach. In the past, with one-year Budgets, the reaction has been to pump more and more money into Health. Given the strategic planning that we will now have with a multi-year Budget, how will Health be treated over the three rolling years?”
“I, too, welcome the Minister's statement. This is a very welcome piece of work. I imagine that the meetings that the Minister has had with the Dorrian family and Charlotte Murray's family were emotional and painful all round. I pay tribute to those families. <BR /> <BR />Aspects of Helen's law have been criticised by eminent QCs in England. Can we learn from what has happened there, even at this early stage? Can we develop the legislation that will give the families of the Northern Ireland victims even greater hope?”
“The Committee must also ensure, which, I think, it has done in aspects of the Bill, that there will not be overcompensation, given, as mentioned before, the impact that that might have on social services, the health service and so on. I believe that the amendment was tabled for the best of reasons, but I reject it and support the Bill as it stands.”
“Members want the very best Bill. They want a Bill that is fair in the way in which it is delivered and one that can be delivered. Members have sought that, and they seek a stable and longer-term discount rate to be achieved in Northern Ireland. They want more than a set rate to be achieved; they want a rate that can be regularly reviewed. Members want to be able to review not only the Bill but the methodology of its establishment. <BR /> <BR />I do not see what the Member's amendment would bring. The expertise is there. The Bill addresses the issues that have been raised in the past. There is a framework that will ensure that claimants get their entitlement.”
“So far, Members have not seen it that way. They are aware of it and have been concerned.”
“She wants a professional approach to be available, and, in some ways, she is looking to the future. She has apologised for tabling the amendment at a very late stage.”
“She is obviously speaking, as she sees it, on behalf of the claimant. So far, members of the Committee do not see it that way, but I understand that, in her amendment, she is seeking:”
“I support the Bill. Like others, I come at this as a recent member of the Committee. Indeed, as the Chairman said, he comes at it as a recent member of the Committee. I recognise that it is a very complex Bill that requires significant advice, which was offered to the Committee over the duration of the Bill's progress. <BR /> <BR />I also recognise that the Committee wants to do what is right for those people who have sustained, in some cases, life-changing or life-threatening injuries. I also recognise that victims can be up against organisations that have very deep pockets and can put professional bodies into the argument against the victim, who may be limited in the advice that they can seek. <BR /> <BR />I do not believe that the amendment is mischievous. I think that the Member tabled it for the very best of reasons.”
“Minister, you outlined in the statement the details of the financial redress scheme for women and their adult children. That is to be made up of entitlement and individually assessed payments that will not be means-tested or compromised. That is a big task, and not one that can be settled in Northern Ireland. When will the direct contact work begin, and when do you expect to have the package in place for victims?”
“I thank the Minister for her statement. In it, she emphasises that the shame lies not with the girl or the woman; indeed, they were the victims of males who created and brought about the abuse of those individuals. It was also males who created the institutions and propagated them throughout their long history. The male of the species is in a bad place in the report. <BR /> <BR />I thank the Minister for her agreement that the report has the unanimous support of the Executive and that she will not cherry-pick aspects of its recommendations.”
“I have a practical question for the Minister. What is the cost to the public purse of the two buses having been burnt and the two replacement buses that will need to be purchased?”
“I join other Members in sending good wishes to the Translink staff who have been directly affected. No one should have to suffer such circumstances when doing their daily duty and, indeed, serving the public. I also join others in calling anyone who has even a small piece of information that might be helpful to give it to the PSNI. That can help the police as they go about their duties in trying to make those who carried out the attacks amenable to the law. <BR /> <BR />The Member for North Belfast talked about the distressing experience of one of the bus drivers affected. There will probably be a longer-term impact on his mental health. The outworking of the situation is that members of the public — pensioners and people going about their daily duties — are the ones who are most inconvenienced.”
“Therefore, there is a foundation there on which to build. <BR /> <BR />We recognise the importance of this issue. The statistics are there, and I am sure that many in the Chamber have had similar experiences to mine. We remain supportive of efforts to increase awareness and develop skills in schools and across society. I welcome the work of the British Heart Foundation. It undertakes extensive work and provides extensive support in schools. I recognise the immense value of those life-saving skills.”
“I will make some general points in support of the Bill. I know that the British Heart Foundation was pleased with the Minister's response. I am sure that it will also be pleased with Mr McGrath's response. We do not prescribe what is compulsory in the curriculum. In many ways, we trust teachers to schedule the lessons, cover the content and, indeed, meet pupils' learning needs in any area that the curriculum covers. We determine that on the basis of teachers' skills, knowledge and experience in that area. I am pleased that there is already a foundation to be built upon. Life skills in first aid, which includes CPR, are already covered in the curriculum, as, indeed, are qualifications in personal development and mutual understanding. The subject of CPR is covered at primary and post-primary level.”
“I know where one is, but I have no idea where the majority of them are. The recent call for a register of where defibrillators are across Northern Ireland, and the need to maintain that register, is a positive step. Schools are one area, and a number of sports clubs have taken up the matter. Whether it is football, swimming, rugby, tennis, GAA or whatever, we need to know where defibrillators are and where training is available for folk.”
“He was a gentleman who did not smoke or drink and took a lot of exercise, including long walks, so the physical indicators were that he was healthy, but he had an underlying problem that no one knew about. He lived for 10 days after the heart attack, and all the indications were there that, if support and attention had been available and if the group had had the skills, he would have survived and returned to full health and strength, but that was not to be the case. <BR /> <BR />We would like to see training in our schools, but that is just one step. Defibrillators are all over my constituency, but I do not know where they are.”