Chris Hazzard
South Down · Sinn Féin · Northern Ireland
“The order I am bringing forward extends the power for my Department to pay a grant to NI Water in lieu of domestic water charges. The current powers to pay a grant will expire on 31 March 2017, and the Water and Sewerage Services Act 2016, which was passed by the Assembly in January last year, provided the power to extend that date by an…”
“I thank those Members who have commented on the motion this evening. Some general issues and several specific points have been raised. <BR /> <BR />I will turn first to Mr Farry's question: why, for the period of time?”
“I am delighted that the Alliance argument around water charges does not chime with more of the electorate and that the particular reason does not hold sway, because this Executive certainly are not for turning on this issue. There will be no water charges for domestic customers, and we have ensured that.”
“<BR /> <BR />The second point that Mr Farry raised was around governance issues and the way forward. They are all issues that I have given thought to and that, I have no doubt, would have featured in the mandate in the time ahead, but we are not at that point today. The Assembly is about to be dissolved.”
“However, the imminent dissolution of the Assembly means I have decided to bring the draft order here today. <BR /> <BR />The grant provides NI Water with the funding to enable it to maintain drinking water supplies and deliver sewerage services.”
“I believe that this order will reinforce the Executive's commitment not to bring in water charging for households, and I thank the Members for their support.”
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“Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. I welcome the opportunity to speak at this stage of the Bill. As a new member on the Committee, I have relied heavily on the Bill Office and Committee staff for advice and guidance on the range, depth and remit of the Bill, so thanks to them and my colleague Bronwyn McGahan, who is now in pastures new, as they say. <BR /> <BR />The Chair outlined succinctly the remit of the amendments in group 3, so I will not go into them in any great detail, except to say that the experience of the Ad Hoc Committee in making suggestions and the relationship with the office of the Scottish ombudsman's office highlight what can be done when Departments and agencies work together. That is something we look forward to.”
“I thank the Member for giving way. I would have taken a view similar to him until I did a wee bit of digging into this. You are right to reference the historical connotations when it comes to "ombudsman". It comes from the Old Norse: "umbodh":"commission"; "madhr":"man". That is something that we need to bear in mind. <BR /> <BR />When the Member started speaking today, a few times he referred to "he, he, he, he" when he referred to "ombudsman". So, it is not a sexist term, but if we are going to set up a new office, we maybe could break away from this, which leads us to always say "he" or "him, when it could be gender-neutral if we went for "ombudsperson".”
“Again, I call for support for our amendment — amendment No 3 — and I look forward to hearing what everyone has to say.”
“That is a positive, and we said that the last time. I understand that there is an agreement between Mr Agnew and DFP on amendment Nos 4 and 5. Amendment No 5 provides the guidance and framework that are necessary if we are to look at the pooling of resources and better use of funds. Appropriate guidelines on accounting, governance and accountability will be important, so that is valuable. <BR /> <BR />Finally, on amendment No 6, it is only right that we extend the definition of children and young people to cover an additional category of young persons for whom an authority may have to provide services. <BR /> <BR />On the whole, we are more or less content for the amendments to be made here today. They all do a bit of tidying up and strengthening of the Bill as it was.”
“On amendment No 2, it is positive to reduce the period for the production of the report, for the first or initial report anyway, from three years to 18 months and three years after that.”
“When Executives put together Programmes for Government, they should learn from the lessons of such reporting, and where co-design between Departments is maybe not what it should be on tackling issues like child poverty and gaps in mental health provision, we will have the lessons and the record to go on. It is very important. I welcome the fact that the Alliance Party has agreed to go with it, and agreement from all sides of the House would be very welcome when we deal with it. <BR /> <BR />On amendment No 1, sometimes it is important that we do not conflate the issues of equality of opportunity and good relations, but it adds something to the Bill to have that amendment in it, and I am more than happy to go with it.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh-LeasCheann Comhairle. I too welcome the opportunity to speak at this stage of the Bill. It is positive to hear support from all sides of the House on the progress of the Bill and the amendments that are in front of us. <BR /> <BR />I will kick off with amendment No 3, on behalf of my colleague Megan Fearon, who cannot be here to move it. Amendment No 3 perhaps makes explicit what we already know is implicit in what we are dealing with, in that it will put into the Bill the importance of reporting. It should not be reporting for reporting's sake.”
“I thank the Minister for that answer, but, when it comes to Ballyhornan, there is a specific reference to the continual pumping of raw sewage into the sea. That would not be accepted on the gold coast of north Down. Why should the people of south Down have to accept raw sewage being pumped into our sea?”
“I am sure that Margaret will be delighted to hear that.”
“Hopefully, with the SEND Bill, the Children's Services Co-operation Bill and various other reforms coming down the line, we will start to see improvements. However, it is hugely regrettable that the Health Minister is not here to explain to us how some of this looks from his side.”
“I would like a wee bit of flexibility built into the system to allow a family that wee bit of time, if they want it, to get information for the statementing process or an appeal. I hope and think that the Committee will look at something like that. The theme has to be the duty for the Departments of Health and Education to cooperate and work together. We really need to look at that. <BR /> <BR />Before I finish, I will say a word on the success of Middletown Centre for Autism, which has gone from strength to strength and got a very good inspection report recently. There are some good things out there. As some of my colleagues mentioned, the bureaucracy around some of these things is stifling, and families know that only too well.”
“Another issue that I would like to touch on — it may be a wider thing that we need to look at in the future — is the statement. To me, the statement is still not owned by the pupil; it is still too closely linked to the institutions. I would love to break free from that and have the statement follow pupils through their school life. It is wrong that it is linked to the institution. <BR /> <BR />I will give a word of warning. We have touched today on shortening the time frames of these processes. Of course, one unintended consequence of that could be that we shorten the time allowed to a family to retrieve complex information that may be vital when it comes to an appeal or a process.”
“This is going to be just a hindrance to what we do." However, families at home need to see something like this happen. <BR /> <BR />I very much welcome the Member's Bill. I think that it is timely and that it will go a long way. The enabling power for the pooling of resources and the sharing of funds is hugely important. We know only too well the huge impact that Tory austerity is having on our budgets here in the Assembly. In times of austerity, it is hugely important that we do more with the public purse. Any ability to pool resources will be hugely beneficial in the years ahead. <BR /> <BR />Another big strength of the Special Educational Needs and Disability Bill will be the ability of schools to improve their capacity to deliver. I would like that to be enhanced in the trusts as well.”
“I thank the Member for his intervention. The Minister of Education has gone on record as saying this, and my Sinn Féin colleagues on the Committee and I agree, that we would be more than happy to explore the potential for a duty for the two Departments to formally cooperate. I know that the Member's private Member's Bill, which I will come on to in a second, includes such a duty. That would be a huge success. Rather than just having it on paper, I would go a wee bit further in scoping out the success of such a duty. Maybe a joint task force between the two Departments could be immediately established to look at the areas where this would be applicable and where we would have the early successes. The establishment will want to keep the status quo and say, "No, this is not going to help.”
“In recent months, there have been a couple of Bills going through the House that will help to alleviate some of the problems that we have been talking about. We have only to look at the Special Educational Needs and Disability Bill that has being going through the Committee, as the Deputy Chair, Sandra Overend, mentioned. We finish our consideration of that Bill tomorrow. It presents great opportunities to streamline the process to give back to families, parents and schools a wee bit of power so that we can again prioritise the individual child or pupil over the interests of institutions. For too long, that is how it has been.”
“If he is in his constituency office, issues of autism and dealing with its effects will no doubt be in his inbox also. As some Members touched on, it is hugely regrettable that we do not have a Health Minister here today to perhaps reflect on the autism strategy of January 2014 and maybe give a bit of information on the targets and successes and what have been the failings of that strategy. They are plentiful. We could have reflected on the road ahead. He is not just letting down the DUP or those of us here today; he is letting down all of the families at home who have to deal with autism daily. Again, I join colleagues who have said that it is hugely regrettable and a shame that the Health Minister is not here today.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. I thank those who tabled this important motion, and I am delighted to speak on it. I am disappointed that a Sinn Féin amendment about empowering the Health and Education Departments to go further under a duty to cooperate was not accepted. That would have strengthened the motion, but perhaps that is for a different day. <BR /> <BR />At the outset, I congratulate all the volunteers, families, educational psychologists and, indeed, anybody who works on or suffers with this issue day and daily. I have no doubt that communication on the issue fills up a lot of our inboxes here. I am not sure what the Health Minister is doing today; he could be at home playing his PlayStation or he might be in his constituency office doing a bit of work.”
“It is about rolling it out. There is no reason why this model cannot help us to tackle environmental issues, the need to build a more socially just economy and issues to do with education in a more holistic and joined-up way. Overall, I welcome the Bill and call on all parties to support the amendments and continue working in a partnership approach that befits the very nature of what we are discussing today.”
“Amendment No 6 is the last amendment that I will touch on. When it comes to reporting, quality rather than quantity is important. I would like an innovative and diverse approach as to how we report and come back. From government, we also need a rich diversity in how we use the information that is gathered. This has the scope to do that. I will not touch on amendment Nos 7 and 8. <BR /> <BR />In conclusion, this is a well-deserved win for all those who work in the children and young persons' sector. As I outlined, not only is it a real game changer for children and young people, but, if done right, it will provide a template across government for how best practice can be rolled out. I have no doubt that the issues that we have dealt with today will inspire those people who work in the sector and result in a great improvement.”
“Along one road in the Mournes area, one education authority said that it would fully cost and meet the needs of a child with autism, and at the other end of that road, a different education authority said that it would not meet the needs and the family would have to pay to meet the needs. That was an absolutely disgraceful situation, but it has now been remedied, of course, with the establishment of the Education Authority. However, it highlights the need for Departments and their agencies to work together. No family should ever have to go through such a circumstance. Again, the outworkings of the Bill will give us a great opportunity to relegate those sorts of stories to the past. <BR /> <BR />I welcome the fact that amendment No 5 will not be moved. That gives us time to bridge the gaps and work in partnership going forward.”
“<BR /> <BR />Again, continuing on from the analogy about the spirit and the heart, I think that amendment No 4 will be the engine for real change when it comes to sharing resources and pooling funds. No doubt, yes, it is important that we get a more efficient use of public funds, but I think that what is vital here is a realisation of the hopes of many families when it comes to the services for their children. That will be a catalyst for real and welcome reform in Government and will build upon the good practice. We see it with Delivering Social Change programmes, and this development can undoubtedly make a real difference to children and their families. <BR /> <BR />I came across an issue in my constituency lately when it came to meeting the special educational needs of a particular child.”
“<BR /> <BR />If amendment No 1 captures the spirit of the Bill, it is fair to say that amendment No 2 goes to the very heart of the issue. Moving from this permissive notion of cooperation to requiring collaboration between Departments is, I think, going to be a very transformative step indeed. It is going to be a real game changer, and I think that all the stakeholders will, indeed, welcome it. <BR /> <BR />Again, having a children and young person's strategy in amendment No 3 is to be welcomed. One of the most important parts — we have seen this again in the Committee for Education's deliberations on special educational needs — is about consulting children. We must start to put the child right at the centre of everything that we do, and this amendment certainly looks at that.”
“It is wrong, of course, to suggest that relationships and sharing have not developed extensively in recent times, but I think that we have reached the point of solidifying those partnerships and putting concrete expectations in place to build upon the good practice that has, indeed, flourished. <BR /> <BR />I now turn to the amendments. It is fair to say that amendment No 1 captures the spirit and the intent of the Bill. It really focuses upon the centrality of the child. I think that it is hugely welcome to see the link with the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child. That is a very welcome step. As has been outlined already, far too often, institutions neglect the fact that children are rights-bearers. They are the ones who bear the rights in this regard. Bringing that into the Bill is a very welcome step indeed.”
“<BR /> <BR />For too long, the management and configuration of vital services such as health and education have not taken into account the need to strategically plan, deliver and evaluate to meet the needs of all the children and young people in our society. Like much of what government does, that silo mentality of Departments and their agencies has remained an incorrigible barrier to progress and has, undoubtedly, lead to a huge duplication of services in recent decades. With the ever-increasing pressures on the public purse, there is a real and urgent need to explore ways in which we can collaborate between Departments and deliver across agencies, and I think that the Bill does that.”
“NILGA said that much work needs to be done to overcome the silo approach to work towards a single outcome. The Commissioner for Children and Young People talked at great lengths right throughout all the reports about the extent of the barriers that are there for children and children's services. <BR /> <BR />At the heart of the issue, it is about putting children and their rights first. For too long, government processes have focused on the interests of institutions at the expense of the rights of the child. I think that the ongoing education reforms such as the upcoming Special Educational Needs and Disability Bill, coupled with this private Member's Bill, are crucial in finally giving children and young people a say in their own personal journey and in that of all children and young people in our society.”
“I think that this is a great win for the children and young person's sector and, indeed, for the working of the OFMDFM Committee. Mike Nesbitt, the Committee Chair, outlined some of the work that it has done to date on reporting and working through a variety of issues. Coming to the Bill recently, I have looked through a lot of the reporting and some of the work done by the OFMDFM Committee. It is quite clear that the stakeholders out there and the sector have big things to say, and they are unanimous in their approach to this. <BR /> <BR />The Health and Social Care Board has said that more can be done when it comes to cooperation. NSPCC said:”
“This Bill will have hopefully have a very transformative effect on the delivery of children's services right across Government, so I congratulate Steven Agnew for bringing it forward.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. I welcome the opportunity to speak on what I believe is a very transformative Bill, like Daithí McKay's private Member's Bill on the plastic bag levy, which had a transformative effect on the environment, society's use of plastic bags, and its approach to recycling.”
“We looked at working alongside Drogheda with the Downe, but it is clear that the people of South Down, and Newry and Armagh, will not be best served by concentrating all our services in Craigavon or the Ulster Hospital in Belfast. It does not serve our people well. We need to see a focus now from the Minister and the Department to reinstate a bit of confidence in these services.”
“If there are people in the EU or further afield who can come and do a good job, we need to search them out. <BR /> <BR />How we approach this matter is a big test for the Minister, and, so far, he is failing. If we had to close schools because there were no teachers to teach our kids, there would be pandemonium and we would not tolerate it. We should not tolerate instances in which we have had to close medical departments because we cannot get the doctors. This is a big test for the Minister, and, so far, we have not seen enough. <BR /> <BR />Finally, we have seen the success that Altnagelvin has had through its cross-border solution for cancer care. There are no good reasons why the likes of Daisy Hill cannot become a champion hospital for those in the border areas.”
“There was a totally regrettable situation with the Downe Hospital where news of its closure was leaked the night before Christmas Eve. Understandably, panic set in. That should not be how things are done. <BR /> <BR />Where do we go from here? I have spoken to recruitment agencies that deal with medical practitioners who say that it is very possible to follow what they have done in the South and bring in medical doctors from eastern Europe who are more than capable. They have come into the Midland Hospital in Roscommon and are doing a great job. This is where perhaps it would have been good to have Jim Wells in the Chamber, who showed some reluctance to look at this the last time, because I think that this is an avenue that we need to look at.”
“Ms Fearon mentioned the failings in ambulance cover in what is a very rural area, and Mr Rogers talked about an elderly constituent who was affected. We see that time and time again. In recent months, we have seen tens of thousands of people on the streets of Downpatrick and Newry. I do not think that any of these people are immune to change. <BR /> <BR />We know that our health system is changing and we know that there is a need for change. How we deliver services in a first-class manner needs to change, but what we are seeing all too often is a complete lack of engagement from the higher echelons of the Department of Health. We need to see a Minister take control of the situation. We need to see the Department of Health carefully lay out a plan and engage with people.”
“<BR /> <BR />Mr Rogers touched on the fact that we cannot separate the future of the Downe and Daisy Hill hospitals; they are two very proud hospitals that have served the people of south Down well for many years. Their futures are very much intertwined. The Ulster Hospital is sucking so much out of the Downe Hospital, and I think that there is a similar situation with Craigavon. If we see the loss of the coronary care and emergency department from the Downe — read strokes unit — and the fear of the emergency department moving from Daisy Hill to Craigavon. There is a 'Big Brother' effect that is sucking the life and hope out of so many people who rely upon these services. <BR />Other Members have alluded to the rural aspect of a constituency such as South Down.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. I thank the Member for bringing this very important topic to the Chamber today. Like everyone else who has spoken, I want to put on record that it is regrettable that the Health Minister and, indeed, the former Health Minister, the Member for South Down Jim Wells, are not here. This is a very important issue for our constituents. <BR /> <BR />I also wish to pay tribute to the staff at the Daisy Hill and Downe hospitals. They do a great service for our community and have done for a long time. Often, when public reps become frustrated at the situation, we are often portrayed as attacking the entire institution of a hospital, including the staff and front-line staff. That is of course a long way from the truth. We would be lost without them.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. I thank the Minister for his answer thus far. In answer to a previous question, the Minister said that he had responsibility for "safeguarding our environment". In the light of that, in connection with the radioactive impact of the plant at Sellafield, in recent months we have had news of British munitions washing up on the south Down beaches in increasing numbers. A lot of them were dumped after the First and Second World Wars, including nerve gas and sarin gas. To what extent does his Department have a responsibility to safeguard the south Down environment and to look at the issue of possible radioactive military materials that were dumped now washing up on the our beaches?”
“I thank the Member for giving way. You talk about party colleagues. Recently, your South Down party colleague made some quite despicable comments about the Syrian refugee crisis. Will you take the opportunity today to distance yourself from those comments? Go raibh maith agat.”
“Of the 120 killings of the Glenanne gang, every single one had a former or serving member of the British Army, the UDR, the RUC or the former B-Specials actively involved. In the massacre at the Ormeau Road bookies, the guns were used under the control of RUC Special Branch.”
“Agencies of the British Government, such as the British Army and the RUC Special Branch, the UDR, their intelligence services MI5 and MI6, the Military Reaction Force, the Force Research Unit and, of course, the UDA and the UVF, were quite literally up to their necks in summary executions. <BR /> <BR />As I mentioned before about the Stevens investigations, the reports spanned a 14-year period. That was then the largest investigation in British police history, but the British Government blocked its publication and allowed only a miniscule portion of the report to be published. Even that sample makes for shocking reading. Stevens interviewed 210 loyalists, and he found that 207 were either agents of the British Army or the RUC.”
“The RUC failed to apply DNA testing to any of the 177 recovered exhibits, including all the balaclavas, boiler suits, gloves, guns and, indeed, the car. The RUC proactively destroyed all interview notes of those arrested in the first two years. There have been 22 arrests since 1994, 13 of those in the first two years. All those notes have now been destroyed. The police have actively ignored, disregarded and destroyed vital evidence, all of which, might I add, was given to them by the public. Senior police figures know exactly who was responsible for Loughinisland. That is why they have never been charged. <BR /> <BR />Today, it is less about who pulled the trigger and more about who was pulling the strings. The twisted logic of collusion meant that every nationalist was a target and every Catholic was a suspect.”
“The getaway car was provided by an RUC agent and was driven by unmasked RUC agent. When the car was found only hours later, the same RUC agent had already been into a Belfast police station and received his get-out-of-jail-free statement. The RUC destroyed the car within 10 months.”
“Sadly, though, it came at a very high human cost, and many were killed and injured as a result. It is to the memory of those people and their families that we owe this debate this evening. I want to make specific reference to the case of the Loughinisland families. Paul Frew said that agents and informers saved lives. Brian Nelson and the Ministry of Defence brought vz. 58 rifles into this island, killing more than 200 people. They did nothing to save any lives in Loughinisland in June 1994. They killed people. They killed Adrian Rogan. They killed Barney Greene. They killed Dan McCreanor. They killed Eamon Byrne. They killed Malcom Jenkinson, and they killed Patsy O'Hare. They did not save lives in Loughinisland. Guns used on the night were brought in by the Ministry of Defence.”
“Former head of the RUC Special Branch Raymond White will tonight reveal, I think somewhat alarmingly to some people across the House, that, when sitting down with the British Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher, he was more or less told to carry on and not get caught. Those are not Sinn Féin's words, Mr Poots; they are the words of a lot of people who have looked at this issue. The only logical conclusion to this is to have an independent inquiry into collusion, and, if unionists are confident that British military and security forces are not up to their eyes in this policy, they have absolutely nothing to fear in a public inquiry. Indeed, they should themselves be calling for that. <BR /> <BR />That we are today talking about this policy is positive proof that the policy of collusion failed and failed miserably.”
“Those are not Sinn Féin's words but the words of an editorial in the 'Belfast Telegraph' this week. Edwin Poots took issue with Sinn Féin lecturing. Again, I will use other people's words. After his reports, Sir John Stevens recommended the arrest and prosecution of 24 RUC Special Branch and British Army officers. Sir Hugh Orde said that Gordon Kerr should have faced trial. The de Silva review revealed that 85% of all intelligence in the hands of loyalists was provided by the British Army and the RUC. Former RUC CID officer Jonty Brown said that, when solving a crime, he feared RUC Special Branch more than he feared the IRA.”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. At the outset, let me say that I know that a lot has been made of this point by those across the Benches. My heart goes out to absolutely any family, from all sides and none, who lost a loved one. However, the issue today is collusion and the killing of civilians and others by state actors. That is exactly what we are looking at today. The tsunami of evidence that has been provided in recent cases suggests and proves to us that collusion is no longer an illusion. Collusion was a practice that was:”
“Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. I thank the Minister for his answer. I welcome the report and the process that he has spoken about bringing forward. Is a timeline available for that? When could tenants expect that to kick into action?”
“Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. I thank the Minister for her answer. The Minister will be aware that the indicator was flat in three of the last four quarters. How do you propose to drive sustainable economic recovery?”
“Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh-LeasCheann Comhairle. I, too, congratulate the Minister on his new role. He referred, of course, to the success of the Irish Open. On the back of the recent Irish Open in Portrush, we have seen that whatever north Antrim can do south Down can certainly do better. Unfortunately, in recent years, be it through Invest NI or the tourism bodies, south Down has played second fiddle to areas such as Belfast and north Antrim. Will the Minister now pledge not just to wait for hotel developers to come to his Department and Invest NI but to proactively engage with people and business interests in south Down to build what can be a primary tourist resort not just in the North but in all of Ireland?”
“I thank the Member for his intervention. I am happy to note that. I just do not see the same criticisms as the Member sees. I also do not see it as the threat to integrated education that the Member outlined earlier. <BR /> <BR />Finally, given the massive change we are seeing here — this will be a journey of change — it is only right that we also acknowledge the financial environment we are in. We need to have a very fine balance between protecting the interests of the public purse and investing in our education estate. I do not envy the Minister in the difficult job of designing an estate that is fit for the 21st century and the needs of a global education market. I am happy to welcome the report, and I look forward to some of the changes in the future.”
“We need to see models of all shapes coming forward, and the vested interests of institutions should not be a barrier to that. The Department needs to show real leadership on this. That is what we are starting to see.”
“Well then, so be it. <BR /> <BR />The areas we really need to look at to push forward and improve are engagement and consultation, not just for education but for government as a whole. We need to find better ways of engaging with and empowering local communities at the very bottom of society. If this is to be a bottom-up process, we need to ensure that every family, every parent and every pupil feels a part of the process and feels exactly what area planning is. I would hazard a guess that there are families out there who could not tell you what area planning is or what it means, and we need to address that. We also need to be far more imaginative and should not set limits to some of the solutions to area planning. There should be absolutely no limits.”