Jonathan Bell
Strangford · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“I did so because terminally ill children were being prevented from getting a hospital place in my area. While attempts were being made to prevent me from coming to the Public Accounts Committee, a terminally ill child was told, after being seen by doctors, that they could not have a hospital place and that, if they needed one, they would…”
“The permanent secretary replied "No" and said that everybody would recognise that every government worked by and on collective responsibility. <BR /> <BR />We are in a mess, and somebody has to shine a light on that mess. It fell to me, and I do not know why. I did not seek it, nor did I want it. I did not want to do it.”
“Let me conclude, Mr Principal Deputy Speaker. The regulations are necessary because of the extreme mess that we have found ourselves in. The points that I made when I had to shine a light on this devastating situation were not made in December. The points were made in writing to the then First Minister in March 2016.”
“The permanent secretary replied, "Well, that is right". <BR /> <BR />There were no regulations on the table when I spoke out. There was no suggestion that we could reduce to zero or even significantly reduce the costs, and we had no legal procedure, that I was aware of, that we could have followed.”
“But I cannot speak authoritatively because, even after the Public Accounts Committee meeting, when I asked the permanent secretary last week whether I could come and see the information that, I believe, legally should be made available to me, I got no reply. Nothing.”
“The second objective that I wanted to achieve was to stop the haemorrhage of public funds. Let us not pretend that the money is still to be spent: tens of millions of pounds of taxpayers' money has already been spent — £85,000 a day, day by day, as we go along.”
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“Some of the organisations were new and some were not so new, and we wanted to see which of them could potentially serve their community and broader society well with the help of funding. We felt that it was fairer to allow everyone to apply and have the same opportunity. Options were put to us, such as the one that the Member suggested of just continuing —”
“We did that, as well as holding a number of drop-in workshops in Belfast, Londonderry and Craigavon to help the groups with the application process. We hope to let the applicants know the outcome of their applications by the middle of next month. <BR /> <BR />As the Member said, a number of requests were made, mostly from those who had been in receipt of minority ethnic development funding, to argue for the funding to simply be extended for a further period. The Member will also be aware that other organisations supported the opening of a new call for applications to those who had not been successful previously or who were involved in work in that area but had not been funded.”
“First, I offer a sincere word of thanks to Anna Lo. She has been of tremendous assistance to us in the office and has met us regularly. She has real credibility and can help us understand the voice of many in the minority ethnic development sector. I want to record my thanks for all her assistance. <BR /> <BR />The direct answer to the question is that the invitation for new applications opened on 27 March, and the closing date was today. As I said earlier, we are pleased to confirm that, despite all the financial pressures, the minority ethnic development fund is £1·1 million for the 2015-16 financial year. On top of that, we have put together a crisis fund of £100,000 to help those most in need or crisis.”
“I do not know where he gets those messages from, because they are not being given to me by the minority ethnic development community. When we have seen a problem, the First Minister, along with us and our officials, has worked with the minority ethnic sector. We recently convened a special sitting of the good relations board at which we looked at what immediate action all of us in OFMDFM could take to tackle race hate. That programme board has met on a number of occasions, and it will do so again, because we want to work together to show that that minority of cases whre there are race hate attacks — they are a minority — do not represent us or any party in the House. Frankly, silly slurs like that do not help anybody.”
“It is difficult for those of us who have come through it all. We do not want to look back to the past, but I look at the number of people murdered or maimed by the republican movement, which went across Europe shooting people, shooting children and everything else. If the Member wants to look back, he has enough significant material in the abuse of people that his republican movement was involved in without pointing the finger at anybody else. <BR /> <BR />From the First Minister down in our party, we have completely condemned all recent racist and hate incidents. When I am with the First Minister with the Islamic community, with the Indian community or wherever we are, we give a consistent and strong message.”
“That is the work the community sector is doing on integration, celebrating diversity and enjoying the society that we are today in Northern Ireland, which is enriched by the diversity. We hope that our strategy and the minority ethnic development fund, which we kept at its current level despite all the financial crises and pressure, will be our commitment to the minority ethnic sector and to the community sector to continue to build on those good race relations.”
“The Member is correct: there is some tremendous work being done right across Belfast, specifically in the South Belfast area. <BR /> <BR />I look to the Belfast Mela as a key example of how the Indian community has led the way in bringing in the many other cultures that represent so much, have contributed so much, have put so much into the economy and have made a net gain contribution from the minority ethnic sector to our economy and our society. It has made us the diverse and rich society that we are. When I first went to the Belfast Mela in, I think, August 2011, I was overwhelmed by the numbers present. Yet, year on year, the numbers are getting bigger, and the involvement by the whole community, from right across Belfast, is now so strong that you have to queue for a long time to get in.”
“There are pieces of work under way with the sector. I am not sure that the people perpetrating the attacks are necessarily looking to a strategy for the reason why they behave in such an abhorrent way. We have sought to meet the groups concerned. We have listened carefully to their needs and aspirations. There is tremendous local work going on across Northern Ireland, specifically in our communities, to make this a welcoming place. It is vital that all those voices are brought together to deliver a strategy that delivers most for those for whom it is intended. We will not be found wanting in producing that.”
“We had 97 written responses from groups and individuals and 303 requests for consideration of specific strategies for Roma and for Traveller people. Forty-nine online questionnaires were completed, and we had feedback from six public meetings and other meetings with academics, trade unions and other key stakeholders. The analysis of all of that is being finalised, and officials have met a large number of representatives of the sector to hear further reflection and input and to clarify what the key issues are. That engagement, along with the analysis of the consultation responses, will inform the final strategy. In conclusion, we want to produce a strategy that embodies both the aspirations and the everyday needs of the families and individuals who have come to live here and who have contributed so much to our community.”
“Racial equality and good race relations remain key goals for the Department. Recent race hate attacks are a brutal reminder that we need to strive to achieve those goals and not to take them for granted. Attacks, whilst relatively few in number, cause fear, alarm and despondency among our minority communities. They shame all of us, yet they reinforce our determination to create a society that allows people of all backgrounds to live here in peace and to be treated with respect and dignity. <BR /> <BR />We are working on a strategy that will genuinely tackle the barriers that stand in the way of people feeling that they belong here. We received a large number of responses to last year's 16-week public consultation.”
“The Northern Ireland Assembly is saying, "We will, as far as we can, keep money in the purses and wallets of households. We will not put an additional charge of £400 onto households. We understand the pain across all our constituencies that households face in making ends meet, and we commit ourselves to working collectively, as an Executive, to ensure that we have the necessary water service that the people of Northern Ireland deserve".”
“<BR /> <BR />The Minister, in a comprehensive and detailed reply, set out the needs that are there. Anybody would think that we were in a pact; well, he is. The case for a new and upgraded series of pieces of work has been well made. The attention being focused specifically on sewerage and flooding is well directed and has been well prioritised.”
“Now we can supersede that with the knowledge that we are, per head of population, attracting more foreign direct investment to Northern Ireland than is going to any other part of the United Kingdom. <BR /> <BR />In the rant against the Executive, the Member failed to mention falling unemployment and the 27 months in which, month after month, unemployment has fallen. I think that it stands at 27 months of falling unemployment. He failed to mention the investment in childcare and helping people to get back into work. Additionally, he failed to realise that the Executive work hard to ensure that every household in Northern Ireland has the lowest household charge in the UK. We are not saying that everything is perfect. We have major issues and major difficulties, but we want to look to where we can alleviate those burdens.”
“Maybe to you. I do not think that anybody having a budget cut of £1·5 billion could say that to our schools, hospitals, nursery schools, roads, street lighting and other areas. Today, the Health Minister hears from a fellow Member from South Down that he would not give one penny more. Frankly, that ranks as a political naivety if not, in political terms, a political stupidity. <BR /> <BR />We can all rant at the difficulties that there have been in the Executive. What the Member failed to acknowledge was that the Executive have brought more foreign direct investment to this part of the United Kingdom. Until August 2014, we boasted, rightly, that we brought more foreign direct investment per head of population than any other part of the United Kingdom. Until that point, it was with the exception of the greater London area.”
“I have listened to your contribution; perhaps you will listen to mine. I do not think that anybody —”
“However, the important thing is that today the Assembly, collectively, can tell people that we reaffirm our rejection of the imposition of water charges on the people of Northern Ireland. That rejection was reaffirmed by Mr Byrne. <BR /> <BR />We had a colourful contribution from Mr McCallister, who said that he would not give a penny more. Anybody who makes that type of statement is so far out of touch. I talk to the hospitals across Northern Ireland, and I have family members working in them; I look at the schools across Northern Ireland; I look at the investment that we need in childcare; and I look at how much more we can do on top of what we already do to attract foreign direct investment. I do not think that anybody can reasonably say, when we face a budget cut of the magnitude of £1·5 billion —”
“The cost and how we would cover it was brought out by Lord Morrow. <BR /> <BR />I want to be fair on this: I think that Chris Lyttle clarified the position when he said that the Alliance Party was not bringing water charges forward at this time. That may be where the confusion arose, if I am genuine, because the issue seemed to be that there would not be charges. Then, I think, there was some discussion in the Alliance Party about revenue raising, and, possibly because of an election, the situation seems to be, "We'll not charge you there, but we'll charge you here". That is not revenue raising; that is revenue-neutral. If it was revenue raising, it was revenue raising.”
“The people of Northern Ireland are looking to us to be on the side of the householder, to try to retain as much money as there is in a household, and to scotch the fear of families having to find £400 if there were to be an additional water charge. <BR /> <BR />Trevor Clarke's contribution was very strong. We look towards not only efficiencies but affordability. We want to support where we can, and we want to protect where we can. We also want to move forward in a range of other areas of government to ensure that the burden comes off the family. We want to use measures to help families to bring in more income for themselves. The importance of water as a collective right, or variations on that theme, was brought out by Seán Lynch and John Dallat.”
“What I can say to Members is that, when we as an Executive look collectively at this, we know that we cannot spend the same pound twice. We will have to prioritise. When you decide to prioritise, by very definition, you will put more pressure elsewhere in the budget, but that is our job. We were elected to make good decisions and give good stewardship of taxpayers' money. Let us try to do that with some sense of collective responsibility. <BR /> <BR />I get concerned when we agree priorities. In the Stormont House Agreement, for example, we sat down and agreed budgets with the Government. We then brought them back, and, in the period after that, there were different votes, squabbles and point scoring.”
“<BR /> <BR />We should also be aware of the fear in many households out there that, were they to be charged for water separately, that could be an additional cost of at least £400 a year, which is not a small amount by any stretch of the imagination. Today, the Assembly, acting collectively, can reaffirm its position. It is an Executive responsibility: there is no problem with that. For my part, the motion was never designed to say anything other than that the Assembly reaffirms its rejection of water charges and wants the Executive to work with the Minister to ensure that resources are available and that we have a proper infrastructure. <BR /> <BR />We have seen major problems with sewerage and flooding, and we have a very challenging role to play.”
“This has been a very healthy debate on a matter that is of very real importance to householders out there. What all of us in the House want to do is to make sure that money is retained in families as far as possible. Nobody should underestimate the pressures that are on many family budgets at this time. It was right to table the motion on water rates and to let people know the position, because there has been some confusion. People say, "You are being political", but it is a political matter and a political decision. How we pay is a political choice. When an element of confusion has been created, it is only right that we reaffirm the actual position. I am confident that the Assembly will today reaffirm its rejection of the imposition of water charges on the people of Northern Ireland.”
“<BR /> <BR />We know what the situation is and we want to put these criminals out of business permanently. Many people ask us, "What are you doing about it?" It is true that we should be doing more and need to do more. However, I also ask them back, "What are you doing about it?" If you are buying illegal laundered fuel, you are depriving your children and the health service and you are poisoning your environment. It is not a cost-free option. I hope that all parties support the motion and send a clear message to the criminal gangs that their time is up.”
“I take that on board and I serve notice on the British Government, the Department of Justice and all in the Police Service of Northern Ireland who have responsibility for this that we must use the best product. If there is a superior product that will make it more difficult for the gangsters, the case for using it should be unassailable. No longer can a blind eye be turned. It is time for resolve to tackle this problem once and for all. <BR /> <BR />The longer this activity is allowed to continue, the more devastating the cumulative impact will be on our public services, which are robbed of much-needed investment, and an environment that is being poisoned by those responsible. It also speaks directly to the heart of public confidence in the apparatus of justice in this country.”
“It is not good enough to have a marker that can be washed out by anybody with basic GCSE chemistry skills. That is not good enough.”
“However, I think that most people who have looked at the situation agree that, so far, the fight is not being won by the legitimate forces of law and order. Rather, as we sit here today, the gangsters have the upper hand. Measures designed to go after the distributors of illegal fuels are fine insofar as they go, but people want to see the problem tackled at source. Measures such as the introduction of a new fuel marker that is harder to wash out, which was announced by the Government in February last year, are welcome. However, as I have communicated directly to the British Government, I have been contacted by businesses that indicate that they have a superior marker. The best marker should be used. I have also been contacted by leading academics, sat with them and discussed it.”
“I take that point, which realises starkly the level of toxicity and poisoning of people. <BR /> <BR />I hope that all of us across the House make absolutely clear that anyone with information about this criminal activity should come forward and share it with the police on either side of the border. We welcome the National Crime Agency's involvement in tackling these criminal gangs. We want everyone to make clear that people should be free to give this information without fear of retaliation to themselves, their businesses or their property. A full and unambiguous statement is all that will suffice. There has been some action from the Department of Justice on the issue, and I welcome that.”
“They said that the council come and look at it and do nothing. They continued:”
“Given the dangerous nature of the substances associated with fuel laundering, it defies belief that any person would choose to casually dump these products into a water supply or to leave them abandoned in places that the public use, such as forest walks and nature trails. Yet that is precisely what is happening on a day and daily basis. <BR /> <BR />On 22 February this year, the 'Sunday Independent' carried a story about the criminal activities of the republican movement in the south Armagh, Louth and Monaghan areas. The paper showed that four 1,000-litre containers of poison, the by-product of fuel laundering, were dumped in a drain that feeds directly into Lough Ross, which supplies the drinking water for the entirety of Dundalk and parts of south Armagh. Let me quote what the newspaper article said:”
“The criminals responsible for these crimes have no compunctions or scruples about poisoning the environment and the people who live near their illegal operations. Fuel laundering is a dirty business. The toxic waste and other dangerous by-products of the process of fuel laundering are immense. The disposal of such dangerous substances is extremely hazardous for the people who come into contact with them. Fuel launderers put their own health at risk. That, for criminals, is a matter for themselves, but we should all be concerned that public services, our firemen and firewomen, our policemen and policewomen and our DOE staff are being put in harm's way by the fuel laundering gangs' illegal actions.”
“So allowing for a starting salary of teachers and nurses of somewhere in the region of just over £21,000 a year, this one fuel laundering operation alone could pay for 857 new nurses in our local health service. With £18 million, we could employ somewhere in the region of an additional 817 new teachers. I am seeing what somewhere in the region of a quarter of that could do to improve literacy and numeracy in our primary sector and the GCSE sector. Can you imagine what we could do with 817 new teachers? These are the proceeds of just one plant over the period of one year. The people responsible for this theft are inflicting real and lasting damage upon all our public services by their actions. <BR /> <BR />Their selfishness is not confined to merely taking money out of the economy and public services.”
“One reasonable estimate of the figures suggests that £80 million is lost annually. Many others that I have spoken to in the field — and I have spoken to academics, businesses and the people who are selling fuel legitimately — tell me that the true figure is much higher than that. <BR /> <BR />On 31 January 2013, the BBC reported that no one had been subject to a custodial sentence for engaging in fuel laundering in Northern Ireland. That revelation was made following the discovery of a fuel laundering plant in County Armagh that was capable of producing 25 million litres of laundered fuel, helping those responsible to avoid £18 million in tax and duty in one single 12-month period.”
“The nefarious criminal activity of those who engage in fuel laundering has consequences for each and every person in Northern Ireland, yet, up to now, there has been a lamentable failure to adequately tackle the problem. The scale of the situation is probably best summarised by the estimate of just how much illegal fuel there is in Northern Ireland. By a conservative estimate, it stands at 12% to 13% of the total. Thirteen litres out of every 100 litres of fuel in Northern Ireland is believed to be illegal. I compare that to the other parts of the United Kingdom, where the figure stands at 2% falling into that category. <BR /> <BR />Those are shocking figures, by any stretch of the imagination, but especially so when one takes a moment to consider how much tax and duty has been avoided.”
“We need to ask how we redraw a model that says, "Instead of caring for you when you take sick, we will put in resources so that we can care for you to prevent you getting sick."”
“What financial resource do we need to give that carer, so that, if they have to give up work to care for somebody, as happens in many cases, they can get adequate financial support for their own families to allow them to care for the person they love? Those are the models that we are going to have to look at in the future. <BR /> <BR />We know that older people want to spend as much time with their families as possible. We know that, not always but in the majority of cases, older people are telling us consistently that they want to live in their own homes and within their own communities because that is where they get physical, mental and psychological stimulation and draw emotional support.”
“<BR /> <BR />I speak to older people as part of the responsibility that we have in ministerial office. None of them wants to stay in hospital. They often stay in hospital because the provision of care in their own home would be inadequate to meet the dignity of what they need. Many people out there in the health service and the private sector have the skills to help keep a person in their home at a fraction of what it would cost to use a care facility or a hospital. In the future, in preventative spend, we need to look at what a person needs and what standards of quality they need in their care. It is not just a question of a cheaper service. What is the standard that we expect an older person to have? What is the training level that we need to give to a person to meet that standard?”
“In many cases, it will be physical equipment, and, in other cases, it will be training that they need, because often many carers find themselves in the situation because they just happen to be a family member. I saw it in my own family as well. What training does that person actually need? Thirdly, I do not want to do the work sector's work for it here at the minute, but, if we look at the cost of what it takes to bring a person into hospital and the difficulties that that causes in not having other operational work carried out because beds are not available, add up all of that cost and examine it against the cost of properly financially supporting a carer within the person's own home, we could well find out that, if we do it properly, we could not only do it well but do it at less cost and provide a better flow.”
“I thank the Member for his question because I think it highlights the contributions that carers make in our society, which, all too often, we forget. It is not hyperbole to say that, as the Member indicates in his question, unless carers are properly supported, the health and social care system would literally collapse without their contribution. I know that the Member for East Belfast talked about the actual meeting coming later on, but the next meeting of the work sector that will look at that should take place in two months' time in Edinburgh. <BR /> <BR />There are a couple of things. First of all, we need to speak to carers to find out where the gaps in their support are. Secondly, we need to find out what training and resources they actually need.”
“How can we use what we already have to make sure that isolation and loneliness are no longer such a major threat to our elderly people?”
“<BR /> <BR />What surprised me at the meeting with the professionals and in the work that our officials did very well in the working group was that isolation and loneliness are as big killers — I use the word advisedly — of our elderly people as obesity, smoking and alcohol abuse. That came from a professional recommendation. It puts a major challenge on all of us as to what we do with older people whom we care for in our families. Can we realise and focus on it for a moment? Isolation and loneliness are as much of a killer of our elderly people as some of the difficulties encountered with alcohol abuse, smoking and obesity. Again, another paradigm shift needs to take place so that, when giving resources, we look at what we spend but also at what networks we currently have.”
“I thank Mr Spratt for his question. I will answer it in two words: loneliness and isolation. They are probably interlinked. When I think of the health service, preventative spend and what we can do to try to ease the burden and make all our lives, including older people's lives, healthier, there are certain things that stick out. Obesity is a major problem for the health service. Many of us, me included, are carrying too much weight. Then, there is alcohol abuse and smoking. Those are the three things that stick out to all of us as the issues that we are all talking about.”
“Unless we make that paradigm shift in health, particularly for the elder care sector, in order to put more money into prevention, the cost will become very difficult to bear in the future. The critical lesson that was learned from this piece of work was about preventative spend.”
“<BR /> <BR />Each jurisdiction is visited, the models are examined, and then they are brought together. I am glad that the Member has welcomed the need for preventative spend. That will put a huge challenge to us all in the House. The easiest thing to do would be to continue to throw money at an existing model, but, if we are going to future-proof the needs of elderly people in our society, throwing money at the current model will not meet their needs. A paradigm shift needs to take place where we move towards preventative spend. Initially, this will cause difficulties, because when you slice a cake, there are only so many ways to do it. If you move more money into preventative spend, you have to take it from elsewhere.”
“Obviously, a number of pieces of work have to go ahead. In this piece of work, all eight jurisdictions were visited and the models of good practice were examined, tested and audited. The two particular pieces of good practice, which go on day and daily and for which Northern Ireland, in many ways, stands head and shoulders above others, are the work that the Commissioner for Older People is doing and the work of the telepresence robot, which, as I said earlier, facilitates older people not to have to go through that level of displacement and transportation and all the difficulties that that can bring about. It keeps people in their own areas, closer to their families and with their communities, which is the best model, in many cases, for helping an older person to heal. Those were the two practical examples.”
“The final piece of work that we are doing, which contributes to the United Nations Principles for Older Persons, is to do with dignity. How do we make sure that the care that an older person gets maximises the dignity that we can offer to them? That work will all be taken forward in the active ageing strategy and will be embedded into the work of all the other Departments. A lot of what is in the strategy will come before you all shortly and, because it was informed by older people, it will help us to deliver more for older people in our society.”
“Spatial planning is not solely for older people. A person close to me has multiple sclerosis, and I know about some of the difficulties that can occur when you push a wheelchair. You can see the spatial difficulties that exist for people when it comes to parking, when roads are half blocked by cars, when obstacles are left on roads or when you have to negotiate your way around wheelie bins and those sorts of things. There are practical things that we can do in our future spatial planning, not only for this sector but for many other people, such as mothers with prams and buggies and different things. <BR /> <BR />In the older persons' sector, we want to move towards self-fulfilment. We want to consult with older people to see how we can maximise their potential and their contribution.”
“Some of the examples that we have used from other Departments are taken from spatial planning, in particular.”
“From the very beginning, the strategy has been informed by the views of older people to ensure their participation in the work of government for their future. We know that, in the Department of Health, Social Services and Public Safety, there is an issue with care, particularly how it is received in the home or the community — wherever works best.”
“It is a strong question, Mr Speaker. First, what my Department does in the active ageing strategy will be embedded in the work of all other Departments, because, as the Member will know as a former Minister, once it is agreed at the Executive, it becomes an Executive strategy and all other Departments are obliged, and would want, to take it forward. <BR /> <BR />I pay tribute to the active ageing working group, which is working alongside us. The group has asked for a further meeting, which why we have not brought the strategy forward just yet. We will have one further meeting before bringing the strategy forward together. It is based on ensuring that older people can maximise their personal independence. We have already involved older people and the age sector in the decision-making.”
“One was the concept of the men's shed, of which we have an example in Northern Ireland. I spoke to those who run the men's shed in Belfast Castle, which is a facility for groups of men to meet through different initiatives, such as crafts. Service users reported that it was a lifeline. <BR /> <BR />We have to ensure, finally, that there is proper financial provision for the elderly, because diet is critical to their well-being; that is a given.”
“Eating as well, of course. <BR /> <BR />The first model that I would say is best, which was universally recognised at the time, was — when you ask a psychologist to go into science, it becomes difficult, and I am unsure of the technical term — the telerobot, I call it. Basically, it allows people to be remotely assessed by a consultant in a different venue, who is given a clear and accurate picture of their symptoms and vital signs, so that they have an interaction without being displaced. That is the first critical model. <BR /> <BR />Secondly, we realise that we face a huge problem, not just in Northern Ireland, but in Guernsey, Ireland, Scotland and Wales, with severe loneliness in our ageing population. There are a number of mechanisms to deal with that.”