Jonathan Bell
Strangford · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“I did so because terminally ill children were being prevented from getting a hospital place in my area. While attempts were being made to prevent me from coming to the Public Accounts Committee, a terminally ill child was told, after being seen by doctors, that they could not have a hospital place and that, if they needed one, they would…”
“The permanent secretary replied "No" and said that everybody would recognise that every government worked by and on collective responsibility. <BR /> <BR />We are in a mess, and somebody has to shine a light on that mess. It fell to me, and I do not know why. I did not seek it, nor did I want it. I did not want to do it.”
“Let me conclude, Mr Principal Deputy Speaker. The regulations are necessary because of the extreme mess that we have found ourselves in. The points that I made when I had to shine a light on this devastating situation were not made in December. The points were made in writing to the then First Minister in March 2016.”
“The permanent secretary replied, "Well, that is right". <BR /> <BR />There were no regulations on the table when I spoke out. There was no suggestion that we could reduce to zero or even significantly reduce the costs, and we had no legal procedure, that I was aware of, that we could have followed.”
“But I cannot speak authoritatively because, even after the Public Accounts Committee meeting, when I asked the permanent secretary last week whether I could come and see the information that, I believe, legally should be made available to me, I got no reply. Nothing.”
“The second objective that I wanted to achieve was to stop the haemorrhage of public funds. Let us not pretend that the money is still to be spent: tens of millions of pounds of taxpayers' money has already been spent — £85,000 a day, day by day, as we go along.”
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“The Member has probably hit on the two critical factors for elderly people: "meet" to combat social isolation and loneliness, and the fact that, because older people are, in many cases, not in work environments, they have to heat their own homes. Through you, Mr Speaker, did I get that right?”
“It is not something that we have the option not to do. Preventative spend is the key to how we can deliver a service, to our elderly people, that is fit for purpose into the future. <BR /> <BR />To answer Mr Moutray's question directly: preventative spend is the key future intervention.”
“We have taken approaches in Northern Ireland such as having the Commissioner for Older People, which is recognised across the House and, more importantly, by the elder care sector to have been a huge success and an excellent piece of legislation that has translated into excellent practice by Commissioner Claire Keatinge and her staff and by the elder care sector that provide them with advice and support. <BR /> <BR />No single model will fit everywhere. We need to look to where future needs will lie. We know that there are major concerns around social isolation, loneliness and the impact that these place on physical and mental health. There are many models of governments looking at the networks and support systems they already have, and putting money in early to prevent some of the later problems that will come about if they do not do it.”
“The Member raises a critical point that is a thread throughout the report. We have some very good current interventions, but when we look to the future and celebrate the fact that we have a population that is growing older, living longer and, in many cases, living healthier lives, we need to look at whether the current model is fit for the future. <BR /> <BR />Two things come through from all the good practice across the jurisdictions. One is that no one size fits all.”
“After discussion, it was agreed that carers should be the next topic and that our officials, working closely with the BIC secretariat, should begin to consider how we can support carers by looking at best practice, new and creative policy responses and community actions across the eight Administrations. Given that the policy for carers lies with the Department for Health, Social Services and Public Safety, it will be for DHSSPS to represent the Northern Ireland Executive on the work sector. The BIC secretariat will confirm the arrangements for the first meeting, which is likely to be in May 2015 in Edinburgh. <BR /> <BR />To allow the work sector to complete its work on carers, it was agreed that the next ministerial meeting for the social inclusion work sector will take place in Wales in late 2017 or early 2018.”
“We noted the many different, creative and, importantly, community-based approaches to supporting older people to optimise their independence and help them to remain in a place that they call home, in a community that they feel connected to, for as long as they possibly can. The report was unanimously welcomed and approved for publication on the British-Irish Council website, www.britishirishcouncil.org. <BR /> <BR />Turning to the future work programme, at the meeting, we discussed the proposal to have carers as the next topic for the work sector.”
“<BR /> <BR />At the meeting, the joint chairs of the work sector — the Scottish and Welsh Governments — gave a presentation of the work of the sector, which included visits to all eight jurisdictions, and highlighted the models of good practice that were visited. Following the presentation, we discussed and reviewed the final report of the work sector, 'Spend to Save: Innovative Approaches to Preventative Spend'.”
“The UK Government were represented by Jon Rouse, the director general for social care, local government and care partnerships at the Department of Health. The Irish Government were represented by Ann Phelan TD, a Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government. The Isle of Man Government were represented by the Hon Howard Quayle MHK, the Minister for Health and Social Care. The Government of Guernsey were represented by the Chief Minister, Deputy Jonathan Le Tocq, and the Government of Jersey were represented by Senator Paul Routier MBE, the Assistant Minister at the Chief Minister’s Department.”
“In accordance with the requirements of the Northern Ireland Act 1998, I wish to make the following statement on the sixth ministerial meeting of the British-Irish Council (BIC) social inclusion work sector, which took place in Edinburgh on 11 March 2015. The First Minister and deputy First Minister were unable to attend, and, in accordance with the provisions of the Act, they nominated junior Minister McCann and me to attend in their place. <BR /> <BR />The Scottish Government hosted the ministerial meeting, and the heads of delegations were welcomed by Shona Robison MSP, the Cabinet Secretary for Health, Wellbeing and Sport. The Welsh Government were represented by Mark Drakeford AM, the Minister for Health and Social Services, who was unable to be present but joined the meeting via telecon.”
“We have seen the public protection units develop from the child abuse rape inquiry units; we have seen dedicated domestic violence officers and an enhancement in their training; and we have seen a growth in the support services available to women, and, in a number of cases, men, who have had to suffer sexual and physical violence. Developments in the Department of Justice in how we treat victims and how that is taken forward have also been significant in what is a very real and very present problem.”
“Junior Minister McCann and I visited a specialist facility in Londonderry. What we need to do, in the first instance, is make sure that victims report what has occurred. Secondly, we need to make sure that the place where they report it is tailored and sensitive to their needs and that it has all the relevant psychological and emotional support, and, in some cases, the necessary medical interventions, to achieve and gather evidence. <BR /> <BR />I was thoroughly impressed on that visit to Londonderry with the professionalism of those involved. They are very much over the detail of what a person needs when they have experienced a violent sexual or physical assault. <BR /> <BR />We have seen huge progress in the work that the Police Service of Northern Ireland has undertaken.”
“I thank the Member for a serious question and for highlighting what we are aware of, which is the alarming rise in cases of domestic violence in those areas that have been identified.”
“Indeed, at 4.30 pm this afternoon, junior Minister McCann and I have a meeting with Ms Anna Lo in relation to the ethnic development fund. If we are serious about supporting our minority ethnic communities, I encourage the Member to develop some substance to what he has to say, to see what the needs of the ethnic groups actually are and to see what has been provided. Certainly, if there are positive and constructive ways to take that forward, we will listen to them. Cheap political point scoring on ethnic minorities is not helpful.”
“Have we sought to show and highlight the very positive role that our Chinese, Indian and ethnic minority communities have played in our society? Have we pointed out the net contribution that they have made to the economy, education and the health service? On each of those points of substance, we have sought, as best we can, to support our ethnic groups.”
“It is disappointing that, having done cheap political point scoring in his first question, the Member feels the need to continue it into his second question, particularly given that the First Minister and deputy First Minister tasked junior Minister McCann and me with taking this under our portfolio and meeting the groups. I notice that the Member did not come back on any of the points of substance. Have we met all the ethnic minority groups? Have we given serious time to that? Have we looked at their needs? Have we been at every major ethnic festival from the Chinese new year to the Belfast Mela to support groups? Absolutely we have. Have we developed the ethnic minority development fund? Yes we have. Have we sought to protect that fund against large and competing items? Yes we have.”
“<BR /> <BR />If people look at the budget and the budget cuts that we received, and then look at what we delivered by way of support to groups and our work on the minority ethnic development fund, they will come to a very different conclusion to the political point scoring that just happened.”
“If people care to take a serious look at what we have done on racial equality, at the funding that we have secured for the minority ethnic development fund or at my diary for the last four years — be it work with the Chinese community, at the Belfast Mela with the Indian community, with the Somali community or with the representative legal bodies — they will see the level of priority that has been attached to the work that we have undertaken. We have also put out our work on racial equality. We are working on that in consultation, because we are listening to what racial minority groups are telling us. In previous work, I spent several hours looking at the people who are falling through the gaps in our strategy. I looked at how best we can help and support them, and what better legal support can be provided to them.”
“We will not see the results of those measures in GCSE outcomes for many, many years to come, but we are already seeing some initial evidence that children's educational achievement is going up. That is what we need to do to ensure that children can lift themselves out of poverty.”
“<BR /> <BR />We are using the best evidence that we have and translating that into very practical measures, such as the early interventions that he mentioned; early support in childcare; developing social enterprises in childcare specifically so that more people can afford to send their children; looking at how we can use Northern Ireland's school estate, where children already are, so that we do not have to deal with the significant costs of transportation for many parents who want to get back into work and lift their families out of poverty; and looking at how we can use the school estate for those particular enterprises, which we have done in Bright Start and, as I said earlier, one of the key strategies for literacy and numeracy in primary schools.”
“There are ongoing discussions on welfare reform. One thing that I am particularly keen on is that no front-line service or service that delivers to children can be adversely affected. The work that we are doing on child poverty is an Executive programme. It is not just OFMDFM: every party is included in that and is signed up to do work, particularly around Delivering Social Change. <BR /> <BR />What we are doing specifically is ensuring that our strategies are informed by the research that has been undertaken; that we assess the impact; that we challenge ourselves in terms of child poverty; and that we also use organisations like the Institute for Fiscal Studies, which we commissioned to provide projections of how child poverty in Northern Ireland and in the UK as a whole is likely to evolve, not only in 2013-14 but right through to 2021.”
“<BR /> <BR />The Member mentioned children and education in his constituency. I am not sure how many of the 9,700 children are from East Antrim. I can get him those statistics. I know that some of them are. We were told that the key aspect was to help children in numeracy and literacy because that was the way in which they could lift themselves and, in many cases, their families out of poverty. With that numeracy and literacy strategy, we will certainly have helped a number of children in the East Antrim constituency who were never helped before.”
“Secondly, we had to look at what the evidence was telling us and where best practice actually came from. In previous mandates and under previous authorities, we had dealt with only 20% of the most deprived wards through Sure Start specifically. The evidence was telling us that, what we had to do in those wards, was to up that by an additional 5%. We have actually increased the amount of help that we are giving to the areas of most acute need. When we go into child poverty statistics and specifically into targets, I am always very conscious of saying how well we have done, but against much of the assessed need in the specific areas of relative low income, absolute child poverty, combined low income and material deprivation, and persistent poverty, we have seen a consistent reduction.”
“In the first instance, we had to look at the key areas. That was the evidence that came to us from a lot of the charitable organisations. We regularly meet Barnardo's, Children in Northern Ireland, the NSPCC and Include Youth. Many of those organisations came together.”
“We will also set out what we are looking to achieve — the outcomes and the indicators — at the beginning and to establish the group that will monitor and implement the work. We want to include our external partners and representatives of the relevant stakeholder groups and to work with our partners so that we can agree, implement and evaluate all our actions to reduce and mitigate the worst effects of child poverty. Those future annual reports will seek to report progress against those outcomes. We are looking to see evidence-based reports on the agreed indicators, the measures that are set out in the Child Poverty Act 2010 and the key agreed actions. <BR /> <BR />The annual report on child poverty for 2013-14 was published in March 2015. In that report, we set out the measures that we undertook in line with the child poverty strategy.”
“We have the draft child poverty strategy. It is coming to the Executive imminently or shortly. I cannot do any better than that — I think that that was the question that was asked. That strategy has been the result of a lot of work. It began in 2012 with the development of the child poverty outcomes framework. It was published in 2013. A review of the previous strategy to see what we got right and wrong, where the gaps were and what we needed to do was completed in 2014. The public consultation on a new strategy was launched in 2014, and further work followed that to take on board the views and comments that arose. <BR /> <BR />The next steps will be to publish the new child poverty strategy to set out a new approach to child poverty.”
“<BR /> <BR />The Member asked about education in particular. We have 20 new nurture units operational in 20 primary schools across Northern Ireland. At the end of the 2013-14 preschool admissions process, 99·9% of target-age children whose parents fully engaged with the process were offered a funded place in a preschool setting. We put in funding of £38·4 million to provide free school meals and gave £4·2 million to provide school uniform grants in the 2013-14 school year. In its first year, approximately 9,700 of our pupils have received support through the Delivering Social Change literacy and numeracy programme, giving children the opportunity to lift themselves and, indeed, their families out of poverty.”
“The Member's question hits on the key aspects of reducing child poverty, namely, education and the role of organisations such as Sure Start. It is important that, as an Executive, we say what we are doing, because a lot of good work has been undertaken to tackle child poverty. Let me give some examples of that. There was the expansion of the Sure Start programme to the top 25% most deprived wards — previously, it was the top 20% — and that is under way. Secondly, the Bright Start childcare grant scheme was launched in March 2014, and, to date, nearly £2 million has been allocated to it. Thirdly, £80 million was allocated through the Executive to the social investment fund, which is aimed at making life better for people who live in targeted areas, reducing poverty and unemployment and tackling physical deterioration.”
“That new strategy will allow us to assess and review the action taken and is due to be published shortly.”
“<BR /> <BR />In 2012, OFMDFM commissioned work to develop a joined-up approach that would allow each Department to understand better its role in tackling, addressing and, indeed, reducing child poverty. That resulted in the publication of the child poverty outcomes framework in October 2013. It proposed the introduction of outcomes-based accountability as a method of both planning and assessing performance. It sets the baseline information relative to where we are at present in relation to meeting our targets and helps us ensure that actions taken are measurable through the established indicators. A child poverty advisory group with representatives from the Departments was established to oversee the development of a new outcomes-based child poverty strategy.”
“The Child Poverty Act 2010 requires the Executive to prepare and publish annual reports on the strategy and to review it formally every third year. To date, three annual reports have been published. A review of progress was completed in 2014, in consultation with Departments. As the Member is aware, the new framework, Delivering Social Change, was launched in 2011 to oversee the delivery of the Executive's commitments under priority 2 of the Programme for Government. One of the key programme building blocks is the delivery of a child poverty strategy. The framework is supported by two Executive subcommittees — the poverty and social inclusion subcommittee and the children and young people subcommittee — and a programme board that is charged with overseeing the work of the subcommittees.”
“A second example is that we went to look at the apprenticeships that are available, particularly in Germany and Austria, to see what we could do. I know that the Member will agree with me that too many of our young people are not in education, employment or training. Countries in Europe, particularly regions in Austria and Germany, are providing their young people with a different way forward, and young people are actively engaging with proper apprenticeships, leading to full-time jobs at the end of them, particularly in the engineering industry. Gerry, with the support of the desk officers, ensured that we could take all of that and make sure that we could maximise the potential for Northern Ireland.”
“Yes, I can, and I join you in paying tribute to Gerry Mulligan. I have been out numerous times, and, every time I have been out, a comprehensive programme has been put in place. We look for that work to be continued under the successor there. <BR /> <BR />Some major work has been done with Gerry. Last week, we were dealing with Safer Internet Day. When we were out previously, we got to speak to some of the key influencers in the European Union about a safer Internet and on trying to ensure that those who provide material on the Internet are actually held accountable for what they do.”
“There are major funds out there that are simply overwhelming when they are looked at in the first instance, but, when they are broken down almost to chunk size, you can see that there are opportunities for Northern Ireland businesses. That is just one example of some of the positive work that they do.”
“The work that we have been doing with the desk officers ranges across areas such as climate change, energy, competitiveness and employment. The success of the desk officers is in the strategic approach that they take to building contacts in the European Union and maximising the drawdown of funding for people here and for small to medium-sized enterprises and businesses here. The work that they have been undertaking with groups and businesses has always been critical in trying to ensure that small to medium-sized enterprises can plough their way through the very complex European legislation, which, for them, can be extremely difficult. In many cases, from examples that I have seen, it is about making that work manageable and making sure that people get timely information on what they are eligible for at the correct time.”
“The House agreed to all those terms of reference, and all the parties agreed that, when the inquiry is concluded and has heard all the evidence — let us be clear: evidence is still being heard — the chair of the inquiry would make a recommendation to the Executive about redress. That is the position that has been adopted and that we will be dealing with.”
“I am not sure why the Member refers to the First Minister and deputy First Minister, given that the terms of reference for the historical institutional abuse inquiry were set by the House and by all the parties here, including his own. At that stage, we sought to do and put in place what we now have. What we asked, at that stage, was that the inquiry be allowed to complete its work. <BR /> <BR />Victims and survivors asked that the inquiry be allowed to act independently, so we have given it to an independent chair; a very distinguished chair, as the Member knows from his previous career. They asked that the independent inquiry would carefully examine the evidence and report back to us.”
“The chairperson of the inquiry here is also satisfied that the assurances that he has been given will allow him to investigate all aspects of Kincora fully, even if they relate to evidence outside this jurisdiction. I hope that that answers the Member's question adequately.”
“On 8 January 2015, the HIA inquiry received a written undertaking from the Attorney General, Rt Hon Jeremy Wright QC MP, that any evidence presented to the inquiry relating to a matter within its terms of reference will not be used in any criminal proceedings against the person providing the evidence. The letter states specifically:”
“Yes, the question in relation to Kincora and the Westminster position on the historical institutional abuse (HIA) inquiry role is an important and critical issue. I know that the First Minister met the Secretary of State specifically on the issue. The Member correctly refers to the fact that on 30 September 2014, the Assembly unanimously agreed that the allegations of a cover-up by intelligence services and MI5, relating to abuse at Kincora Boys' Home, should be investigated by the Westminster child sexual abuse inquiry. <BR /> <BR />We are naturally disappointed that the Home Secretary did not do that, but we are pleased that the Home Secretary and the Secretary of State are fully committed to full investigation into any and all aspects pertaining to abuse at Kincora Boys' Home by the inquiry into historical institutional abuse here.”
“I have talked to many victims and survivors over the last number of years who are making a hugely positive impact on society. We need to ensure that the care and support that are needed to help with that healing are provided to them at the point of need.”
“<BR /> <BR />Why the House chose, I think correctly, to set the terms of reference in the way that it did for the historical institutional abuse inquiry was because those children did not have parents or caregivers to go directly back to. They had nobody else. They found themselves in a situation where their primary care was provided in those settings, and the inquiry is looking at abuse that occurred within those settings. That was the rationale for it, and I believe that the House chose correctly when it set that rationale for the historical institutional abuse inquiry. <BR /> <BR />It is vital that we provide all those others who experienced abuse in a range of settings, many within their own family homes and by people they knew, with the best services that are available so that they can be put on the process of healing.”
“I think that the Member and the whole House supported the historical institutional abuse inquiry's terms of reference. It is a difficult issue, because, as I saw over two decades of professional practice, the impact on children who have suffered sexual abuse is exactly the same. Individuals will differ in how they respond to it, but the trauma is the same. Whether they have been abused by a teacher, somebody in the clergy or in an institutional setting, difficulties, psychological traumas and post-trauma reverberate from that. While not every victim will respond in the same way, the trauma is particularly difficult.”
“That is a sexual assault referral centre that provides services in the aftermath of a sexual assault, rape or an incident involving childhood abuse. Those services include a 24-hour advice and information line that anyone can ring. <BR /> <BR />There is also a range of psychological therapies and counselling that cover a wide spectrum of services in the statutory and voluntary sectors. In primary care, we are looking at establishing talking therapy hubs across the five health trust areas. In fact, they are currently being established. They will provide a range of psychological therapies and lifestyle support for people who are experiencing common mental health problems.”
“From the outset, I will say that clerical abuse is no less important or emotive than institutional abuse. We are mindful of the equally destructive impact that it has had on many individuals. <BR /> <BR />Apologies, Mr Speaker. I have a bit of a flu, and it is man flu, which is the most virulent variety. So, I apologise for my voice. <BR /> <BR />The Health Minister has helpfully provided a range of detail on the services that are available. We have the domestic and sexual violence helpline, which is a 24-hour service that provides key support, advice and signposting for victims of domestic violence. We also have Nexus NI, which responds through the provision of counselling services to the needs of adults who have experienced sexual violence and abuse, and we have the Rowan.”
“We approach it with a common cause: the delivery of better services to children and young people. When the House next debates the Bill, I hope that it will truly deliver on those objectives. The Bill is fundamentally about the future of our children and young people. It is important that we get it right. In fact, it is too important for us to get it wrong. I am content to support the principle of the Bill at this stage.”
“<BR /> <BR />In conclusion, in keeping with the spirit of the Bill, it will be important to cooperate with stakeholders in the sector and consider existing local research on the matter. At the forefront of that work should be the goal to improve services, outcomes and opportunities for children and young people. Let me be clear: it is a first step today. Mr Agnew should be commended for getting the Bill this far, for the research that he has carried out and for the work that has been done by the sector. It is positive to be discussing it importantly here today. <BR /> <BR />In many ways, the work starts now. If the House supports the Bill today, we will be agreeing not only to the principle of working together for children and young people but to working together to get the Bill right. We will need to be flexible as we approach the issue.”
“<BR /> <BR />The final concern is the potential cost and resource implications for my Department, OFMDFM, other Departments, the Health and Social Care Board and other relevant bodies that are named in the Bill. In a time of reduced resources, new financial pressures are obviously unwelcome, especially when they are not quantified. For the Bill to progress, it will be important to demonstrate that the benefits outweigh any potential negatives and that the costs are outweighed by efficiencies. <BR /> <BR />As we take the Bill forward, it will be important to consider best practice in other regions and assess how legislation in this area has worked and perhaps where it has not worked elsewhere. We must also bear in mind that issues that are faced by children and young people elsewhere can be different from here.”
“We do not want to hinder Departments or agencies by burdening them with onerous reporting duties that could prevent them delivering. We perhaps need to ensure that there is a better balance between reporting and action. <BR /> <BR />We have shared significant concerns with Mr Agnew about clause 4, which seems to place powers and duties on the Health and Social Care Board, placing the functions currently undertaken by the children and young person's strategic partnership on a statutory footing. So, there could be instances when, for example, the board cuts across the responsibilities of individual Departments or Ministers, which would raise questions about democratic accountability. The clause is quite far-reaching. The impact on the board and the named public bodies, including Departments, would need to be fully understood.”
“The incidents are highly regrettable, and, frankly, they should not occur. However, we need to consider whether some poor experiences legitimise the need for legislation. No doubt, the Member and the sector will be able to provide some examples — some have been given — of when collaboration has not happened, but we want to look at those examples to find the reasons for the failure so that we can best consider a remedy, whether it is in the form of legislation or not. <BR /> <BR />Mr Agnew and I have shared some of our concerns. We do not need a Bill about more reporting or bureaucracy; we need a Bill about improved services and improved delivery. At the minute, there is a lot in the Bill about reporting, whether it is reporting on cooperation, on efficiencies or on services.”
“<BR /> <BR />Whilst junior Minister McCann and I agree with the general principles of the Bill and the policy intent, we hold some concerns, which we have shared, about the current draft. If the Bill progresses today, I expect significant revisions and amendments to be put forward to ensure that we get it right and that it has a positive impact on the lives of our children and young people. The Bill must ensure that cooperation happens in both policy and operation. Departments, agencies and relevant partners should work together to plan, implement and monitor the appropriate policies and services that are aimed at our children and young people. <BR /> <BR />We all accept that there can be instances when Departments or agencies do not adequately join up to support a child or a young person.”