Jonathan Bell
Strangford · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“I did so because terminally ill children were being prevented from getting a hospital place in my area. While attempts were being made to prevent me from coming to the Public Accounts Committee, a terminally ill child was told, after being seen by doctors, that they could not have a hospital place and that, if they needed one, they would…”
“The permanent secretary replied "No" and said that everybody would recognise that every government worked by and on collective responsibility. <BR /> <BR />We are in a mess, and somebody has to shine a light on that mess. It fell to me, and I do not know why. I did not seek it, nor did I want it. I did not want to do it.”
“Let me conclude, Mr Principal Deputy Speaker. The regulations are necessary because of the extreme mess that we have found ourselves in. The points that I made when I had to shine a light on this devastating situation were not made in December. The points were made in writing to the then First Minister in March 2016.”
“The permanent secretary replied, "Well, that is right". <BR /> <BR />There were no regulations on the table when I spoke out. There was no suggestion that we could reduce to zero or even significantly reduce the costs, and we had no legal procedure, that I was aware of, that we could have followed.”
“But I cannot speak authoritatively because, even after the Public Accounts Committee meeting, when I asked the permanent secretary last week whether I could come and see the information that, I believe, legally should be made available to me, I got no reply. Nothing.”
“The second objective that I wanted to achieve was to stop the haemorrhage of public funds. Let us not pretend that the money is still to be spent: tens of millions of pounds of taxpayers' money has already been spent — £85,000 a day, day by day, as we go along.”
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“Members are aware of the early intervention transformation programme: the Departments of Health, Social Services and Public Safety, Education, Social Development, Employment and Learning and Justice have contributed funding, along with Atlantic Philanthropies and the Delivering Social Change programme, to deliver a range of programmes aimed at improving the lives and opportunities of children and young people. It is an excellent example of collaborative working where we can pool resources, which the Bill seeks to promote. So, there is absolutely no argument that outcomes for children and young people are not improved when different service providers work together with common cause.”
“The exact functions of the new Department are still under consideration. However, it is expected that it will bring together a range of children's services currently dispersed across a number of Departments. That restructuring will support the delivery of more efficient services for our children and young people, and all Departments have the responsibility to ensure that our children and young people have the opportunity to thrive. <BR /> <BR />There are already good examples of Departments working together.”
“It is worth noting at this stage that the Executive, at their meeting last Thursday, agreed to the formation of a new Department for education and children as part of the restructuring of Departments following the Stormont House Agreement.”
“Of course, all organisations that have the best interests of young people and children at their heart should be looking for opportunities to collaborate with other like-minded organisations, because it is all about securing better outcomes for children and young people. We secure such outcomes by delivering better services. My Department, OFMDFM, has always sought to promote cooperation in this area, and, in the development of the 10-year strategy for children and young people, the work of the child poverty strategy and the Delivering Social Change programme, we had extensive consultation and sought the engagement and level of cooperation that is desired here today. So whilst OFMDFM holds the policy lead, a wide range of Departments and agencies are involved, which are delivering those services for children and young people.”
“I welcome the opportunity to speak on this important matter. A good level of interest has been shown by all sides of the House on this important issue that Mr Agnew has brought forward. I commend the Member, and I place on record the fact that we recognise his efforts to make a difference to the lives of children and young people and to place their best interests right at the very centre of our government policy. <BR /> <BR />I do not think that any Member would argue that it is not a good idea for Departments, public bodies and other appropriate agencies to work closely together to deliver services to children and young people.”
“I think that we are all agreed on the issue in the House, and we are all working extremely hard. Junior Minister McCann and I, and our advisers, in our last meeting at the very end of the last year were working with the age sector in particular to see how we might get legislation through in this mandate.”
“The commitment was given at that particular time, and we continue to be committed to it. My most recent meeting was with many members of the age sector, as we continue to try to put in place a system that has agreement to achieve what we set out to achieve, which is no discrimination in the provision of goods, facilities and services. <BR /> <BR />It is absolutely wrong for people, just because they have crossed a certain age, even though they are in good physical health, to have, for example, their travel insurance tripled. I have been speaking to many of our elderly citizens, and the cost of their travel insurance has meant that they cannot get a holiday. In fact, the cost of travel insurance in some cases is almost equal to the cost of the holiday.”
“As the Member will know, because I have been in discussions with him for the Stormont House Agreement and in previous iterations going back to Haass, we have sought, on each of those matters, to progress them in the best way that we can. It is my understanding that the leaders of all the parties will meet later today to see where they can seek to get consensus to advance those matters specifically.”
“Many victims have raised that issue with us. As the House knows, it is a position that we support. Many on these Benches have brought forward in this Chamber and potentially in other Chambers the need to look at and address the definition of a victim. As the Member equally knows, in the current circumstances that we have inherited, we have to gain agreement on that. We will seek to work hard with victims and survivors' groups. I have been in the west of the Province and, more recently, in the south of the Province, and it was raised with me. I shared with them what we intended and would like to do in relation to that and how we were trying to seek the necessary agreement and consensus to take that forward.”
“That shows the level of commitment that we have to victims and survivors. We acknowledge that more people are coming forward. We have sought more people to come forward; we do not want people suffering in isolation. We have quadrupled the amount of money in one of the tightest sets of financial circumstances that anyone in the House has had to deal with. That shows that victims and survivors remain a priority. Addressing their needs will always be to the forefront of our considerations.”
“As the First Minister alluded to earlier, the excellent work of the Finance Minister has managed to secure for the victims' service in the region of £13 million. Look at where we were in 2007 and under the previous arrangements. I was always very proud to say up to this point that we had tripled for victims and survivors the amount of funding that they received for essential and key services provided to them. I have had the privilege of visiting many of the groups and seeing, from physiotherapy right through to individual and group support, many of the needs that victims and survivors have. They and their needs must never been forgotten. I was always pleased to say that, from the position that we inherited, we tripled that funding. As the First Minister said earlier, that has been almost quadrupled.”
“The needs of victims and survivors are important. Through the work of the Commission for Victims and Survivors, we continue to ensure that they have proper representation and a collective voice. In going forward, acknowledging and addressing the suffering of victims as part of the transition to long-term peace and stability is one of the key issues that is considered in the current political architecture. The commission regularly liaises with victims and survivors through the Victims and Survivors Forum to discuss the shared experiences of dealing with and acknowledging the past. As a result of those discussions, the commission has submitted an advice paper on dealing with the past.”
“I do not want to comment further in light of the chairman's appeal, but, given the seriousness of what I have said, I want also to make it clear that I am very supportive of the chair's appeal.”
“I was very disappointed by Justice Treacy's decision. We went north, south, east and west and listened to victims and survivors. Many of them asked us that the legislation be set up, as it was, to minimise excessive legal costs. It is important to emphasise that that was done largely at the request of victims and survivors. The legislation gives the chairman discretion to listen to cases asking for independent legal advice, and we are content with that. <BR /> <BR />The decision that the Member refers to may make the inquiry very legalistic, and costs could get significantly out of control. This may even jeopardise the entire inquiry by potentially quadrupling the costs. The chair is appealing the judgement.”
“Those are the words of Justice Hart, who chairs the inquiry, and we would do well to follow them.”
“We hope that the draft order will be debated in the next number of weeks. <BR /> <BR />On the issue of redress, I quote from the distinguished judge who is chairing the inquiry — fortunately for us, as we wanted someone with that level of expertise for victims and survivors. He said, and I quote him directly:”
“The Member has raised two issues, one in relation to the one-year extension, as the Member correctly notes, for which the inquiry chairperson made a persuasive and compelling case following the first module of the inquiry's public hearings. To be accurate, section 1(3) of the Inquiry into Historical Institutional Abuse Act (Northern Ireland) 2013, allows the First and deputy First Minister acting jointly to:”
“We cannot speculate about the need or desirability for redress in advance of the Executive looking at the situation. However, anyone whose experiences of abuse fall outside the scope of the current inquiry is encouraged to report that directly to the Police Service of Northern Ireland and social services for investigation. Where appropriate, the alleged perpetrators can be brought before the courts, and that is the primary means by which victims and survivors can seek justice for what happened to them.”
“The issue of clerical abuse is no less important and no less emotive than that of institutional abuse. We are mindful of the equally destructive impact that it has had on those individuals. In the latter part of last year, we tasked our officials with developing an options paper relating to the clerical abuse that falls outside the scope of the inquiry into historical institutional abuse. We are now in receipt of that options paper. As part of the consideration of options, we are giving considerable thought to the likely needs of the victims of clerical abuse, particularly around emotional and other support. <BR /> <BR />Ultimately, it will be for the Executive to consider how to deal with clerical abuse that does not fall within the inquiry's terms of reference.”
“Yes. We have been consistent in our approach to that, and there is no reason to deviate from that approach. We have looked at the legislation and have agreed it here, and it is over to your party and others to bring back your agreement on that legislation.”
“I am a governor of a school that was looking at potentially up to 10 teacher redundancies in Newtownards. The additional money for education, which you voted against — I emphasise that — will ensure all that. It is not my difficulty if it is on your conscience that that additional funding to secure teaching jobs and bring children together was voted against by your party.”
“Under the Stormont House Agreement — I had the privilege of taking part in some of those pieces of work and seeing the agreement of your party, right up until it appeared to vote on it, when it appeared to vote against it — the additional resources to education that were put through earlier today, against the votes of your party, will bring more young people together than would have been the case otherwise. It will bring them together in a way that will allow them to share, learn and experience, which they could not do previously. The additional money that came into the budget earlier today will, in addition to making sure that those classroom assistant and teaching posts remain, ensure that more children get educated together and more children share together.”
“From listening to the Youth Service and to other voluntary agencies when they talk about young people, we know that, when we give a young person an opportunity of obtaining skills that will lead them into a proper job, their relationships improve, their family relationships improve and any previous dependency on chemicals, alcohol or drugs decreases. The additional resources, particularly those for DEL, give us a real sense of hope that we can bring people together who have not been together before and shape an entirely new future but one that is prosperous for everyone.”
“I am grateful for the excellent work of the Finance Minister and for what he announced this morning. That additional resource will allow us to take forward much of the work that is ongoing and in the pipeline across the seven headline actions. <BR /> <BR />I am particularly encouraged when I see some of that work. It is not necessarily just the work on urban villages and the summer programmes but particularly the work with our young people, which brings them together and allows them to learn new skills. The additional resources that were given to the Department for Employment and Learning will underline bringing together young people who are not in education, employment or training. What better way is there for young people to come together than to learn new skills that will give them prospects of jobs and hope?”
“Therefore, it will not cease to exist as an independent organisation as a result of the legislation. In addition, the Community Relations Council is classified as a non-departmental public body, but it is also an independent company and a registered charity. Therefore, any decisions regarding its future will be made by its board.”
“The assurances are the assurances that we have already given. Both bodies have their own powers, remits, vires and authority. <BR /> <BR />As I said, the establishment of the new commission will not constitute a merger of the Equality Commission and the Community Relations Council. It is proposed that the Equality Commission will take on the additional good relations responsibility, and I hope that that reassures the Member. As some of those responsibilities relate to work that is currently under the remit of the Community Relations Council, we have the transition board, which draws its membership from both organisations. As the new commission will take on some of the functions that are currently undertaken by the Community Relations Council, the council will continue to have responsibility for funding.”
“Once it has been agreed, we intend to initiate a 12-week public consultation on it and on the associated documentation. In advance of the enactment of the legislation, departmental officials are working with the Equality Commission and the Community Relations Council to consider the extent to which the aims and objectives of the Together: Building a United Community strategy can be delivered by those organisations within their existing vires and remits.”
“Together: Building a United Community (T:BUC) includes a commitment to establish an Equality and Good Relations Commission that will act as an independent, statutorily based organisation to provide policy advice and a challenge to government. The establishment of the commission will not constitute a merger of the Equality Commission and the Community Relations Council. Instead, the primary legislation will add specified statutory duties in relation to good relations to the powers of the existing Equality Commission and will create a new Equality and Good Relations Commission. The new powers are outlined in the Together: Building a United Community strategy. Some of the duties currently reside with the Community Relations Council but without a statutory basis. <BR /> <BR />The draft Bill is under active consideration in the Department.”
“I am not sure that whatever body we have would change the legislation. We have very robust legislation in Northern Ireland, which we are using to drive forward change and to increase gender equality. We are doing that in a range of ways, including by using best practice, advertisement, encouragement and setting an example in the Northern Ireland Civil Service. All those measures are using best practice to address gender equality. I am more interested in the outcome than the process. We have the process and the legislation. Whatever body we have will not change the legislation. The important thing for people who are living with inequality is that we address that gender imbalance, and we are using best practice to do so.”
“We have used the independent advice that will be provided to the public appointments forum by a senior academic with considerable experience in equality and diversity issues. Time does not allow me to go on, but those are the key, concrete actions that OFMDFM has taken on gender equality, which we are proud to stand over.”
“We have put measures in place to raise the awareness of public appointments and made it possible for people, and encouraged them, to apply for those posts. We have taken a number of steps, including an interdepartmental public appointments forum, to share best practice and increase diversity.”
“The Commissioner for Public Appointments recognised that women, along with some other sections of the population, were under-represented, and it is working closely with Departments to identify and develop measures to address the under-representation among those holding public appointments in Northern Ireland. That is one thing that we have done. <BR /> <BR />With regard to Northern Ireland Civil Service actions, we are committed to achieving greater diversity in public appointments, and we have been consistent with the overall principle of selection by merit as a means of ensuring effective public bodies. We recognise that some sections of our society are under-represented and we are working to encourage greater participation.”
“I think the understanding was that the supplementary question would be based on the original question, and I think that most Members of the House are aware of that. Therefore, I will answer the original question, which was on the gender equality strategy, on which I do not think Mr Campbell said anything at that particular time. <BR /> <BR />We have a strong track record in the Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister and a strong action plan on the actions that we have taken to promote gender equality. We have sought to find a gender balance on all Government-appointed committees, boards and all other relevant official bodies.”
“They do not have the option not to bring that to the attention of police and social services. It is not something that you should do; it is something that you must do. The reason why the criminal law is very clear in that you must bring that forward is because it allows the police and social services, under the joint protocol procedures, to act in a way that can take the criminal route and also the child protection route to protect any child. Whatever the abuse or the domestic violence, whether it is that of an adult or a minor, it is imperative that that abuse is reported immediately. Failure to do so is simply not an option.”
“I think that Maíria Cahill was a particularly brave individual to come forward and tell a story of horrific rape that should never have happened and for which she can never be blamed. Child abuse can never, under any rational explanation, be blamed on the child. The House considered the motion, and I came to the correct decision and voted on it. My record is clear on that. <BR /> <BR />As somebody who has some experience of dealing with child abuse — I spent over two decades of my life in professional practice — I know that a paedophile will rarely, if ever, abuse only one child. I can give you a legion of research to confirm that. The important thing is that when anybody is aware of child abuse, they must immediately bring that to the attention of the police and social services.”
“The new strategy will require full public consultation and Executive approval.”
“<BR /> <BR />The strategy and its supporting action plans bring together what government is doing here to promote gender equality and to enable government to demonstrate how it is meeting international commitments under the Beijing Platform for Action and, importantly, the United Nations Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women. A review of the strategy was undertaken during 2013, and, in January 2014, Ministers approved the development of the new strategy. Since that date, meetings have taken place with a range of key stakeholders and the gender advisory panel to update them on the progress that has been made and, importantly, to include them in the development of the new strategy. The current strategy will remain in place until the new strategy is developed and operational.”
“The gender equality strategy 2006-2016 sets out an overarching framework for Departments, their agencies and other relevant statutory authorities to promote gender equality. The strategy provides a framework of objectives to direct action by decision-makers and policymakers in government to increase their awareness and understanding; to tackle specific gender inequalities, including the structural inequalities that can perpetuate them; and to ensure the promotion of gender equality across their policy areas.”
“I think that the House will want to collectively ensure that working families here are able to access the financial support that is to be made available to working parents in England, Scotland and Wales. I therefore commend the motion to the House.”
“I re-emphasise what Mr Lyttle said: it is not only us who will want to create an awareness of this — and every MLA will want to put it out in their constituency office and everything else — but primarily it is the job of Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs to promote its scheme UK-wide. We will certainly try to ensure that it does that. <BR /> <BR />So, the new scheme will be available to all working families. We want to get out the message that it is not just for those whose employers participate in the scheme, because that is a critical change. The scheme is going to be available to all working families, regardless of whether an employer participates in the scheme. Secondly, as I have said, it is open to parents who are self-employed, and it will take into account family size.”
“It will give parents information — and remember that this is open to lone parents and couples — as to what they can receive. Also, not just parents but others can pay into the account that is opened and have it topped up 20% to the value of £2,000 per child in any one financial year.”
“The Member makes a valuable point. Mr Wilson is in the uniquely valuable position of being able to sit in both Houses and take this legislation through. Mr Wilson is correct that it is about making sure that all working families are aware of the 20% that is available to them after the Bill receives Royal Assent. As I said in my opening remarks, I believe that it is already up and running on the HMRC website that people can put in their details and see, from the level of complexity that is there, how they can benefit and how they can work.”
“Just a second. The local benefits to parents from the tax-free scheme are expected to exceed the total local benefit to parents under the employer-supported childcare scheme. I give way to Mr Wilson.”
“That is a very valuable point that Mr Lyttle has made. I will certainly put my shoulder to the wheel, the Office of the First and deputy First Minister will do so, and I will ask all Departments to do exactly the same to ensure that people are aware. The reality is that we will provide childcare for more people and bring more people into the system. I want to emphasise that tax-free childcare will have greater local uptake than the current employer-supported childcare scheme. In addition, the local benefits to parents —”
“We are sending out a clear message that working families will not lose out when that is closed.”
“Sorry, yes. I think we had 111,000 five years ago, and today it sits at 116,000. Apologies for that oversight on my part. <BR /> <BR />We know that 80% will be better off, and we want that to happen. We also know that everybody who is currently on the scheme can stay on the scheme, but it is for the potential people in the future — the 20% — that we will see what we can do to mitigate the effects. <BR /> <BR />It is now time to make a decision on the matter. The issues have been well aired in the time that has been available to us. The whole House should take a moment to consider what we are actually agreeing to in this legislative consent motion. We are saying to working families here that they will not lose out on valuable support with childcare costs when the employer-supported childcare is closed to new entrants.”
“It was a strategy that was not being pursued by others. That is why we stepped in to take this part forward. <BR /> <BR />As I have said, we understand that, under the old scheme, a number of people were left out. The people who were left out were those whose employer was not part of the scheme and the 1,600 people who are self-employed today. Mr Spratt made the point extremely well, particularly about the construction industry, where people were part of larger companies and are now working on their own very successfully. The good news of today is that we are offering those people something that they never had before — a 20% contribution to their childcare costs that they could not access before. We are offering it to people who were working for employers who did not have it before either.”
“Every day, we are looking at where there are levels of disadvantage and working with groups. I have met Employers For Childcare in the past. We have done functions together with them, and we will certainly do that in the future. <BR /> <BR />My response to Mr Lyttle is that we need to be clear that OFMDFM did not initially have responsibility for childcare. The childcare vouchers were a UK tax scheme for which we did not have policy responsibility. OFMDFM stepped in. I do not mind constructive criticism, but the constructive part of it is important. If we are to deliver proper childcare into the future for the society that we all live in and that Northern Ireland needs, we want to take a constructive approach to it. OFMDFM effectively stepped into what was a vacuum on the issue, and we have taken the lead on coordinating the strategy.”
“The intention is that the childcare strategy will be a flexible, living document, able to take into account the findings that we constantly get, even if the strategy has been published. We are trying to ascertain as quickly as possible who will be disadvantaged. We want to check whether, where people are disadvantaged, they can be helped by some or other of the key actions. We started with 15 Bright Start key actions. We want to see whether they can fit in with or be a match for the people who are potentially going to be disadvantaged — the 20%. We will try to ascertain that as quickly as we can to ensure the best outcome for everyone.”
“It is the case that, under the new scheme, people can go to whomever they wish, but the childcare provider must be registered. I appreciate that there is a concern for child safety. Family members also need to be registered, and they can do so as a childminder within their own home. My response to Mr Brady is that tax-free childcare will support parents with the cost of childcare that is formally registered or approved, and that can include childcare provided by nurseries, playschemes, childminders, nannies and school-based childcare. The providers will be registered with the health and social care trusts or approved under the home childcare providers scheme. <BR /> <BR />I will respond to some of the comments that were made by Mr Attwood.”