Jonathan Bell
Strangford · Democratic Unionist Party · Northern Ireland
“I did so because terminally ill children were being prevented from getting a hospital place in my area. While attempts were being made to prevent me from coming to the Public Accounts Committee, a terminally ill child was told, after being seen by doctors, that they could not have a hospital place and that, if they needed one, they would…”
“The permanent secretary replied "No" and said that everybody would recognise that every government worked by and on collective responsibility. <BR /> <BR />We are in a mess, and somebody has to shine a light on that mess. It fell to me, and I do not know why. I did not seek it, nor did I want it. I did not want to do it.”
“Let me conclude, Mr Principal Deputy Speaker. The regulations are necessary because of the extreme mess that we have found ourselves in. The points that I made when I had to shine a light on this devastating situation were not made in December. The points were made in writing to the then First Minister in March 2016.”
“The permanent secretary replied, "Well, that is right". <BR /> <BR />There were no regulations on the table when I spoke out. There was no suggestion that we could reduce to zero or even significantly reduce the costs, and we had no legal procedure, that I was aware of, that we could have followed.”
“But I cannot speak authoritatively because, even after the Public Accounts Committee meeting, when I asked the permanent secretary last week whether I could come and see the information that, I believe, legally should be made available to me, I got no reply. Nothing.”
“The second objective that I wanted to achieve was to stop the haemorrhage of public funds. Let us not pretend that the money is still to be spent: tens of millions of pounds of taxpayers' money has already been spent — £85,000 a day, day by day, as we go along.”
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“Ards Rangers can have up to 300 young people two nights a week and in matches on a Saturday morning and afternoon, but I watched them help young people with their personal development. Those of us psychologists who believe in the link between physical fitness and mental fitness watched them develop in all aspects of their educational career. It is right that we look at those summer months and allow the young people on one occasion in a calendar year to be part of their sporting club, with all the protections that are there. That is saying to people that we are not taking a blanket unreasonable approach; we will enhance the protection for young people, but we will allow them the full range of benefits of their sports clubs.”
“It is right, when we do promotions and things, that we make it clear that it is for the members of the club. It is also reasonable, as the law currently allows, that, where there is a charitable or benevolent purpose, people can be allowed in for that reason. That is a measure of responsibility and reasonableness, but in the other terms — where it is for the club — it is for club members only. <BR /> <BR />I have seen sports clubs do a tremendous job for Northern Ireland. My children participated in many of them, and I watched for years as my son went through from primary school to captain Ards Rangers — better skills in football than his dad. I watched those sports clubs teach young people personal responsibility.”
“If we are not prepared to let children walk through the alcohol aisles, we should follow the logic of that and not allow them to see the advertisements in other parts of the supermarkets and other places that take away from the message that this is a serious matter and should only be dealt with by reasonable and responsible adults. The regulation by the Bill of where advertising can be placed — it has to be kept within the alcohol areas, in boundaries and other areas — is there to protect young people and make them aware and take away from them the power of advertising a serious drug that they know will harm their physical health. <BR /> <BR />I support the regulation of clubs, too. I know from my constituency and across Belfast that the responsibilities are taken seriously by the people who run the clubs.”
“I turn to the issue of advertising. It must be reasonable and proportionate. We know that, at times, alcohol can appear cheaper than some of the more expensive bottled waters. What message are we sending out in our advertising? We referred to children earlier: when they go to a supermarket with their family, they are hit first with an offer, perhaps a loss-leading offer, to get people in, on the balance that they take a loss on the alcohol but will make the profit up on the food and everything else that is retailed. We do not let children walk through the alcohol aisles, and we do that for very good reasons. We are not going to create a society where we tell children, "This is the norm; this is OK. Walk through the aisles, and it's just like picking up a Coca-Cola or a bottle of water". It is not. We are dealing with a very serious drug.”
“It is given to young people illegally, and the people practising that trade know that they are doing it illegally. We are on to them, and we serve warning to them that we will check those logbooks to ensure that there is a proper log of any alcohol being transported and that no minor can receive it. That is responsible.”
“That logbook will send out a clear warning that, as the honourable Member Mr McCann said, we will stand with all responsible taxi drivers and everybody else who refuses to engage in this abusive behaviour. We will require the logbook to be held because we want to ensure that we stamp on this practice that is going on. <BR /> <BR />I have talked to police in my constituency, and there are concerns about public venues such as public parks. We have tried to tackle it as best we can, but, in dealing with community safety, we know that young people are gathering, taking serious levels of alcohol and ending up in our A&E wards. It appears from anecdotal and other evidence that the alcohol has been provided to them by adults. Sometimes, that alcohol has come out of the boot of a personal vehicle or whatever vehicle it is.”
“I am happy to underline everything that you have said. My constituency is exactly the same as yours, and the vast majority of taxi drivers are responsible. However, when you, Nichola and I looked at it in Committee, we realised that there were some who are not. They are the minority, as the Member was right to correct me. I did not mean it to come out like that, and, if that is the way that it came out, I stand corrected. That minority — not just taxi drivers but people using their personal vehicles — supply alcohol. The Minister has sought to deal accurately with a problem identified in 2016. The requirement in the Bill is that we will check that the reception of alcohol from taxi drivers and others who deliver it cannot be by a minor.”
“<BR /> <BR />Let me turn to a very insidious, disgusting industry that has developed in Northern Ireland and to which Mrs Mallon and others referred in Committee: taxi drivers supplying alcohol to minors who know that, because of the professionalism of the industry, off-licences will not supply alcohol to young people. There are those who, for a quick buck, are prepared to buy alcohol for young people. They often sell it on to them at an increased profit and provide them with alcohol that will seriously damage their developing bodies and affect their physical and mental health.”
“I believe that, in the Bill, the Minister has got it absolutely right. There will be a demand for a blanket extension to 2.00 am, and I understand where that is coming from. However, the Minister is right: he has a responsibility not just to the industry but to society in Northern Ireland to take a judicious approach. The allowance of up to one hour extra on 12 days, with protections for Easter, Christmas and everything else built in, is proportionate. It is a reasonable demand, and it contributes to the overall balance of reducing alcohol-related harm in Northern Ireland and not extending it. I hope that he gets support from every section of the House for the Bill and what it seeks to do as a measured approach with the aim of reducing alcohol-related harm in Northern Ireland.”
“That is why I like the fact that we are responding to what the police are saying; we are going to bring the liquor and entertainment licences together to assist the brilliant men and women in the police with upholding the licensing law in a professional and very person-centred way. <BR /> <BR />I think that the Minister is correct to not just go to a blanket ban for 2.00 am. I understand that he will be criticised on all sides. Some of us who were Ministers know that it can be a very difficult and lonely place to be when you seek to do what is right. My apologies to John Bew if I have this quote wrong from his brilliant book on Lord Castlereagh, but he referred to Viscount Wellington as saying that you have to do what is right for people, sometimes more than what people want you to do.”
“I did not see any difficulties, but that was not a surprise; I am sure that Brother Humphrey will remind me that the Northern Ireland fans received the best fans in Europe award and have subsequently been re-awarded what they obtained more recently after the Euros. <BR /> <BR />I watched the police apply, uphold and protect the licensing laws with the utmost sensitivity in very difficult circumstances, with tens of thousands of people — I am not exaggerating — on the streets and going to the match or watching it in bars, clubs and different things. I watched them do it with sheer professionalism.”
“I had the opportunity to watch police policing thousands of people, sometimes only two or three at a time in different spots of the city centre, all the way out to Windsor Park and back again. I saw policing in Northern Ireland at its best. I saw person-centred policing. I saw police helping people who had taken too much to drink. I saw police making sure that people received the proper level of first aid. In the throng of thousands of people and all the celebrations, including disabled people and people who were on crutches and different things, I watched police providing the highest level of service.”
“I understand that that will help the Police Service to deal with and uphold compliance with the law. <BR /> <BR />I want to say a special word of thanks to the Police Service of Northern Ireland. Hopefully, towards the end, I will thank the Ambulance Service, the paramedics, the nurses, the A&E staff and the hospital staff. I remember watching how the police police what is a very difficult issue. I remember, on a historic night in Northern Ireland, walking from Belfast city centre up to Windsor Park. Northern Ireland were playing Greece. We all know about the brilliance of that night. I am not sure whether we all fully appreciated, at about 5.00 pm that evening, that it was going to be as good as it was.”
“To all the people out there who do not share my beliefs — I hope that, one day, they will believe in the death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ and its significance — I say that I deeply appreciate the respect that they have shown for my faith and the significance of Easter to a huge number of people in Northern Ireland. I appreciate their tolerance and the sensitivity with which they have approached that. That is why the protection of Easter and its maintenance in the Bill is particularly critical. <BR /> <BR />I mentioned earlier that, for children, all certificates remain in place. We are not reducing anything for children or young people; we are maintaining everything and enhancing protection in the Bill. I value the fact that the liquor and entertainment licences will run concurrently.”
“Easter has a special significance to Northern Ireland. I believe that it is the highlight of any particular year when I remember the death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ. I know that there are people of different faiths and no faith who do not share my views, but I have found that, when I talk to them about the importance of Easter to Northern Ireland, I do not get dismissed; I do not get the cavalier attitude of, "Well, you think that. You might believe that, but we don't, so let's get on with it". When I have spoken to people about how we address the issue of Easter — we will allow the normal procedures that apply throughout the rest of the year to apply for the Thursday in the Bill — I hear respect.”
“<BR /> <BR />Hospitality Ulster developed that responsible retail code and their members voluntarily signed up to it, and when I talk to them, I find that what they really want the Bill to do — and I raised this in Committee — is give it teeth. Skinner's theory of classical conditioning states that you should always reward good behaviour. Here is an industry that has behaved intelligently, that has developed the code, that has self-disciplined itself to that code and is now looking to all of us to give that Hospitality Ulster code real teeth. I believe that the Bill will allow for real teeth to be given where we have an approval and a code of practice that has legal consequences, that looks at promotion, the retailing and the serving of alcohol. <BR /> <BR />People have raised the issue of Easter with me.”
“Hospitality Ulster, the hotels federation and many others that I have spoken to about this Bill are very clear: they are looking for a long-term, viable future for their industry that is sustainable and healthy. The Deputy Chair outlined very well the importance to the tourism and hospitality industries of local hospitality and the local product. The people running those local industries are often families and generations of families, and they too know the long-term interest for their business is responsibility and a contributing to a reduction in alcohol-related harm, while, at the same time, ensuring that the people who come to Northern Ireland can enjoy our hospitality and the excellent food and drink offering that is available.”
“If our professionals are properly trained — there are people who are more expert in this, but I have spoken to dozens of people in the hospitality industry, and not one of them is not prepared to refuse alcohol to a young person if it is illegal and that young person does not make the grade. So not allowing young people to self-serve or use a vending machine for alcohol and maintaining that prohibition is a particular piece of excellence in the Bill. <BR /> <BR />The responsibilities under the code that I mentioned earlier were developed by Hospitality Ulster itself. Let us scotch any idea — that is probably the wrong pun, again — of the hospitality industry being interested only in profit.”
“It says to young people, "Yes, you can have a good time, but you do not need the danger of alcohol and the harm that it can do to you". <BR /> <BR />What the Minister and the Bill have cleverly done is put a prohibition on alcohol from self-service and vending machines. That way, we have some form of regulation; we can have some form of control; and we can have responsible people — in many cases, people trained in basic first aid — in charge of the sale of alcohol, and they can ask for ID. Minister, over the next number of decades, the prohibition on the sale of alcohol from self-service and vending machines will, critically, be very beneficial to young people, because it will allow control, it will allow proper care and, most importantly of all, it will allow proper responsibility.”
“That is where we need to really stress to young people the damage that alcohol does to the pubescent body and to inform them, in advance, of the danger to them and the potential harm to their physical and mental health. Then we should do what the Minister said: put strict regulations in place to ensure that those young people can have access to the music and access to the school formal — I have two teenagers, so I know the importance of the school formal. I am a governor, and I know that it is a very good and healthy development of young people as they progress to whatever they are going to do at the next stage of their life. But, allowing it to happen in an alcohol-free and safe environment is the right thing to do.”
“Yes, it is alcohol-related harm, but it is the norm, so do not do anything about it; let people continue to die; let society continue to suffer; let the National Health Service deal with it. This is the norm, everybody does it, therefore we do it as well.”
“They are responding to the fact that someone has put a time frame on them. They do not need to stockpile and drink that amount of alcohol in such a short period of time. This is a reasonable and proportionate response that has, as its background, the need to ensure the security, safety and long-term interests of the individual. <BR /> <BR />I have two teenagers, and, let us face it, we live in an alcohol-saturated society. In preparation for the debate, I had an evening of watching television and saw the number of times that alcohol was advertised or appeared in dramas, soap operas and films. All of us watching it would almost perceive that this is the norm.”
“If they had a space in which to wait for their taxi to get them home safely, they would not stockpile. <BR /> <BR />The hospitality industry has been very clear that it is concerned about stockpiling, not because it can make more money out of that but because it knows that, in the long term, the danger of alcohol-related harm in Northern Ireland is quite literally unsustainable. We cannot go on with the situation we are in. So, allowing that 30 minutes to 60 minutes trial period will give people a clear indication that there is no need to stockpile and that they should not be stockpiling at a time, largely late in the evening or in the early hours of the morning, in which their judgement is impaired and they cannot make a proper decision for their own health — physical and mental — as to how much alcohol they need.”
“<BR /> <BR />Members, if we are in a position where we have the opportunity to change legislation for the betterment of an individual, family, children, our health service or to reduce the costs and the mortality rate associated with alcohol-related harm, we need to have the courage to go ahead and do so regardless of some ill-informed criticism that may come about. There will be a trial period for allowing longer drinking-up time. We all know that alcohol affects your judgement and will lead you to take greater risks. Take someone whose judgement is affected — I am not standing in judgement, I am just talking reality — who hears the call for last orders, we know from practice that they will purchase a stockpile of alcohol. People are buying excess alcohol that, if they had the time, they would not possibly drink.”
“<BR /> <BR />As we go through the Bill — I know Members will have gone through the 27 clauses and are probably delighted that I am not going to take them all individually — I ask everybody not to take a knee-jerk reaction to what is being proposed and to look at the bigger picture. There will be a review of some of the clauses in 12 months; so no one is saying that this is a blanket issue. This legislation will be reviewed and, if we find that it is not doing what we believe it should do, which is to reduce alcohol-related harm in Northern Ireland, we will have the opportunity to change it.”
“It would be disingenuous of a Minister not to bring forward a Bill when all the evidence coming before him is that, with the changed drinking habits of 2016, there are proposals that have been examined, have had the expertise fed into them and have the potential to contribute to a reduction in alcohol-related harm. Those proposals have the potential to reduce the 238 deaths a year that I can find from 2014, reduce the 12,000 admissions to our acute hospitals due to alcohol-related harm and save some of the £900 million that we are spending in Northern Ireland and that we could use for a better purpose.”
“It is impossible to quantify the cost of that in human terms, in mental health and physical health terms, in damage to families and society, in breakdown in families and in domestic violence, which are all issues connected to alcohol-related harm. A useful guide is that alcohol excess is costing Northern Ireland in the region of £900 million every year. <BR /> <BR />To people who are looking for simplistic solutions that seem to suggest that we should just reduce the hospitality industry, I say to them that not to change anything out of fear that you will be accused, and that by not changing something you will have increased the problem, is wrong.”
“In my constituency, we are preparing for a new town the size of Ballynahinch every 25 years because of the success of our health service in combating mortality. However, we also know that, with that increased population, we will have to deal with more problems with morbidity, and we have to do something to try to alleviate the pressure on the health service. <BR /> <BR />If the Minister, in bringing forward a Bill, were to say, "I can bring forward something that can lead to a 12,010-person reduction in admissions to acute hospitals", I think that we would be cheering on every side of the House. We have to acknowledge the reality that, in a certain period, 12,010 people in our society can be admitted to hospital with an alcohol-related problem.”
“We know that 31% of the three quarters of the population who drink alcohol are binge drinking to seriously harmful effect. Of those, 11% have an identified severe alcohol problem. That is why I appreciate the Minister's courage in taking the Bill forward. The DUP committed to do it in the run-up to the Northern Ireland Assembly election because we saw the need to change legislation to better society and to make alcohol less harmful to individuals. <BR /> <BR />We all know the pressures on the National Health Service, and I know the pressures in my Strangford constituency, particularly in accident and emergency departments, due to alcohol-related harm. Those pressures will, if anything, increase.”
“I am not going to stand in judgement of anybody, but I appreciate people's honesty. We are told that 31% — basically, one in three — of the three quarters of the population who take alcohol are binge drinking: 35% of males and 24% of females. I will put that binge drinking into perspective: for a man, I am talking about 10 or more units — five pints — and, for a female, seven or more units — four medium glasses of wine. <BR /> <BR />As somebody with a background in psychology, I say to you, as, I think, nearly any nurse, doctor or mental health social worker will tell you, that most people are not, to put it politely, entirely truthful about their drinking habits. That is for a number of reasons, whether societal or individual pressures. With what we know, we can reasonably assume that to be an underestimation of the difficulties.”
“That is why it is courageous legislation for the Minister to take forward. I know about the difficulties and the many views on the issue. It is important to take an evidence-based approach, informed by medical knowledge, best retail practice and people's alcohol consumption habits in 2016. <BR /> <BR />We know that some 73% — just short of three quarters — of our population in Northern Ireland consume alcohol: 76% of men and 70% of women. We are talking about legislation that is directly relevant to three quarters of our population. I appreciated the honesty of people when they informed us of their personal binge-drinking habits. The Good Book is absolutely correct:”
“That is why it is not an easy thing for the Minister to take forward, given some of the difficulties that I will outline shortly; the alcohol-related problems that the medical, psychiatric and psychology professions will tell of, to do something that has a genuine chance of reducing alcohol-related harm.”
“I think that the Minister has outlined already some of the responses to what you said — and said well — about harmful drinking and how patterns have changed over time. That is why the Minister has referred to advertising and where advertisements are placed. That is why what the Minister outlined in allowing children to be part of functions where there is more safety, more protection, and that moderating influence that Mrs Long referred to, is so critical. <BR /> <BR />However, we must realise that we have sleepwalked into a situation where we are quite happy — actually, not quite happy but almost ambivalent to the facts of hundreds of deaths — 300% more than on our roads — and must do something to contribute to a reduction in alcohol-related harm.”
“<BR /> <BR />When I look at those different bodies, not just Hospitality Ulster and Colin Neill, but Michael of Cafolla's, Newtownards, and the Old Cross Inn, and listen to what they do with regard to first aid, personal safety, protecting young people and females, ensuring that people have proper transport, I see people who are in the hospitality industry for the long term and who are operating to the highest standards of integrity in the industry. I am very proud to represent them and their commitment.”
“I have to say that, when I look at the voluntary regulatory code that Hospitality Ulster has developed — professional men and women of the highest standard in Northern Ireland, who do not take the attitude of, "Let us make the biggest buck and the devil take the hindmost" — I see in it expertise; genuine appreciation of the health issues regarding alcohol, which I will outline further; and genuine commitment to the society that they serve. It ultimately makes sense for the likes of Hospitality Ulster to develop that excellence because it knows that, if we get this legislation right, the hospitality industry can only grow in the long term and the future benefits to society can also grow.”
“I apologise for picking the Member up wrongly at first. Yes, I agree with her about that moderating influence. I have to say that it is the first time in six years in the House that I have been accused of being gracious, but I respect that. <BR /> <BR />Let us move on to address some of the concerns that very legitimately exist in the hospitality industry, some of which the Deputy Chair of the Committee has outlined. I have spoken at reasonable length to representative bodies and to individual retailers and suppliers — whatever the proper term is — in my constituency.”
“However, they made the point that young people are taught the dangers of alcohol from a very early age. I am very loath to go along fully with what the honourable Member has said, for these reasons: all the medical evidence that I have seen is that a child's body, a child's body going through puberty, a pubescent child or an adolescent — there is really no argument that allows for a safe amount of alcohol for the child, given their physical development. We have to be very careful, because alcohol affects all of us in medical terms at different stages.”
“The Member makes a very interesting point. I have two views on it, which are not necessarily contradictory. I looked at some of the evidence from Belgium. I remember being out on business and noticing in the early hours of the morning that there did not appear to be the same alcohol-related problems that we have here. When I asked some Belgian politicians and community representatives why this was, they made a point similar to the one just made by the honourable Member. They said that children in Belgium grow up with beer in the fridge. Very often, the way we would normally say, "Do you want some tea or coffee?", when we are looking for a mortgage, consulting our solicitor or speaking to our bank manager, in Belgium they will say, "Would you like some tea, coffee or beer?". It is just in that manner.”
“<BR /> <BR />We have to tackle some of the practices of the licensed trade. It is imperative that we regulate the sale and the supply of alcohol in Northern Ireland. Critically — and this is what I love about it — the Bill strengthens the protections for children and young people. It does not take away any of the current protections. All those protections for children and young people are maintained. The Bill then goes further: it strengthens the protections that are available for children and young people. My reason for saying that —”
“<BR /> <BR />Personally, having seen the effects in professional practice in the health service, I came at this with the very simple point of view that extension of opening hours and changing arrangements, on the one hand, looks like it will allow for more alcohol-related harm. My gut reaction was that we should not do it. I will be absolutely straight about that. I have seen too much, and my gut reaction was that we should not do it. That was the simple response. Having considered all the evidence, I now realise that it was the wrong one. I believe that the Bill that the Minister is bringing forward will lead to a reduction in alcohol-related harm. It goes further than holding it where it is and tries to reduce it. I will develop the points as I go along in this piece of legislation.”
“We are dealing with something that has taken 474 lives in the last couple of years, in 2013 and 2014, and that has had physical and mental health effects on literally tens of thousands of people. In a way, the legislation that we are dealing with today is real politics and will affect real people. We have to be very judicious in how we take it forward. I do not excuse the pun, but we have to be incredibly sober as we look at all the facts that are brought before us. The minimum bar for me and, I think, for the House should be that, whatever we do, the legislation, almost like the Hippocratic oath, must do no harm. In fact, our legislation should be about the reduction and, indeed, the prevention of that harm.”
“Yet, slowly and imperceptibly, we have allowed the real danger of alcohol in our society to continue, with the deaths that it is causing and the severe mental and physical health effects that it has. Year after year, we walk almost blindfolded, ignoring what has occurred. <BR /> <BR />I spent over two decades in professional practice and have seen the effects of alcohol on individuals. I have seen the increased risk of suicide and suicidal ideation. I witnessed the Royal College of Psychiatrists informing us that alcohol is our favourite drug. Interestingly, one very senior medical person in Northern Ireland told me today that, if alcohol were to come on the market today, there would be serious concerns about whether it would be issued with a licence. <BR /> <BR />We are dealing with something that is very serious. It is not hyperbole.”
“The legislation — the Minister has given a comprehensive overview of it — will probably be among, if not the, most serious legislation that we will deal with in this mandate. That is not hyperbole. Alcohol-related deaths numbered 238 in 2014 and 236 in 2013. If we compare the 2014 figure for alcohol-related deaths, 238, with the road death statistic of 79, we see that the former is 300% higher. If we were to come to the House with the outrage that we rightly have about road deaths and were experiencing a 300% increase in their number, we would be looking, by accelerated passage or whatever way we could, to introduce legislation to do something about that.”
“I thank the Minister. I am sure that I am not alone in thanking her for what is a very impressive and comprehensive range of work undertaken to date. Can the Minister give us her assessment of any signs of improvement in market conditions? Indeed, can we agree today in the House to send a message that we call on the processors to ensure the maximum return in value to the farmers?”
“I thank the Minister for that level of focus and attention. Does she agree with me that the trends are very worrying indeed? According to the NSPCC, across the UK, there has been a 21% rise in calls to Childline concerning online sexual abuse, and, in Northern Ireland, there were 160 such calls last year. Does she agree that that indicates that we need to keep a watching brief on this?”
“I thank the Minister for the work that her Department is doing for looked-after children. What is the current status of the educational gap that is emerging between looked-after children and the cohort of children in the general population? Secondly, will she assure the House that, where necessary, given that many of these children have experienced severe trauma and disruption to their lives and that there is such a short time to get it right, extra resources will be put into helping those looked-after children to achieve the life opportunities that many of us took for granted?”
“A new policy, freshly looked at, is in the best interests of everyone in Northern Ireland.”
“<BR /> <BR />We also know the issues of homeless people who are making applications on the basis of unsuitable accommodation, and I would like the Department to look very seriously at the issue of unsuitable accommodation. I should have declared at the start, although it is on the register, that I am a landlord. I have visited homes in the private sector, made referrals and advised people about environmental health and different departments in councils. I have seen houses where wallpaper is coming off the walls and mould is growing round the windows. In such cases, people who are extremely vulnerable are forced to make a decision.”
“We have to look at the issue of intimidation. We have to be honest that it occurs, but equally we have to be very sharp to the fact that intimidation should not be used inappropriately to move somebody ahead on a list to somewhere where they otherwise could not be without — this is the key part — valid reason. We do not want to see the system being abused, and we can reflect on the good practice that we have. We have had two good reports looking at Northern Ireland and good practice in GB, and we should distil from those the important points so that we end up with a policy that reflects, not only what has occurred in the past but the knowledge that we have gained within that.”
“We heard in earlier debates about the hassle and abuse that people take before they finally make the move. When they finally make the move, they are often at their wits' end. There is a need for people to be treated with dignity and respect within that.”